Reports of major rock stacking at keeper

[peesalot]

Just wondering if someone assoc. with the Jeepers Jamboree could explain the idea here. I understand the adjustments made to trail to facilitate the event but are these adjustments removed after event ?
In either case , is the action of modifying the trail not a major impact on the surrounding environment as rocks are moved , gathered , placed on trail ???
Is there some reason the Jeep club is not sensitive to this or is it a trade off for the hard work they do to maintain the trail ?
Does this one event not do more damage than any other year after year ?
Are P.E.T.T. required on every vehicle ?

[vikingsven]

I can understand stacking "a few rocks" when you are "trying" to clear an obstacle, but stacking a lot to prepare for an event that essentially makes the trail a lot easier for the every day driver is not good, not to mention that it IS altering the trail!! WTF people!! If you can't drive the 'Con the way it is...DON'T GO. IF you can't make the trail, turn around and go home. You are done! Don't alter it until you can make it. Why don't we just grade it so that yuppy bastards in their honda civics can drive it too. What's wrong with people these days!! :rolleyes:

[upinit]

They've been doing it for 50+ years on the Jamboree. I wouldn't call a few rocks stacking. Let's save the drama for the treehuggers.

[randii]

I'm not associated with JJ, other than working shoulder-to-shoulder with Rich Mainwaring with RTF, FOTR, and ROC to keep the trail open. :cool2: That said, I have some opinions to some of the questions...
* IMHO these are minor, transient changes to the trail, and most of the rocks in question are no larger than a basketball, so they'll redistribute themselves rapidly as traffic goes over them. Don't even start to compare this to ripping fridge-sized boulders off the sluice wall.
* Gatekeeper is slated for FOTR repairs and changes shortly, so JJ may be helping move rocks to the area.
* I've run the trail many times before and after JJ -- the lasting impact is minimal, IMHO. Two weeks later, you'd have a hard time telling where the rock-stackers were stationed.
* JJ is providing rest station stops along the trail and leaders are being equipped with personal sanitation devices for guest use.

Randii

[randii]

This whole user/business discussion often winds up feeling a bit like 'friendly fire.' Jeepers Jamboree, Jeep Jamboree, Mark A. Smith Adventures, and Rubicon/Soda Springs Campground have business interests that may be slightly different than what some trail users desire, but consider the fine differences under discussion, as opposed to the greater issues of management by closure.

We aren't talking about gradingf the trail for Honda Civics... here's Jeeper Jamboree's description from http://www.jeepersjamboree.com/jeepers_jamboree_vehicles.html :
All vehicles must have roll bars and skid plates. Acceptable vehicles for Jeepers & Jeep Jamboree are Jeeps, Toyota Land Cruisers, Land Rovers, older Broncos, Toyota pick up trucks and other 4x4 vehicles. Vehicles should be in good mechanical condition, with good off road tires and brakes. ..suggest you have angle iron on your rocker panels for protection and skid plates and seat belts. Suggestion: Most vehicles have a minimum of 3.5" lift and 33" tires... If you have a new vehicle and fear denting it, don't come. Odds are you will take dents home.
I don't think that's all that far off from what I see on the trail -- the Rubicon is not now and never has been the most extreme trail, suitable for only the top fraction of drivers (Johnson Valley, anyone?). It is a multi-day trail-ride through the Sierra for modified vehicles.

Randii

[Rollie]

* Gatekeeper is slated for FOTR repairs and changes shortly


Randii
More concrete

[cruzila]

From the county website:
12.16.010 Injury by Vehicles.

It is unlawful for any person to wilfully, negligently or maliciously injure, damage or destroy any county road, highway, bridge or other road structure, or any forest road, bridge or other structure, by driving, operating or moving any vehicle, object or contrivance on, over or across the same. (Prior code §11,401)

I don't see stacking rocks as damage.................I have alot more to say on this but am pressed for time.

[Lil Uzi]

Stacking rocks.............that were origionally there in the first place.

[welndmn]

More concrete
Yeah, we only poured 80+ bags that barley lasted a season, I would like to see better ideas to help repair it.

[UGET IT]

Damn right..................its really getting wreaked in there.

[resqme]

What we are failing to see is that Rubicon Springs is private property owned by some of the same folks that are on the JJ comittee. The reason the "county road" (read Rubicon Trail) is open is for easement to these folks property. These people taking responsible ownership are the reason the trail has stayed open as long as it has. Trips like JJ and JJUSA keep the trail open...they don't close it or cause any more damage than any other large group of vehicles (like a holiday weekend crowd). They have contributed political muscle, money, and personal time to this cause for more than fifty years.

That being said, I don't really think the rocks stacked in gatekeeper will stay for this weekend, much less next weekend.

[randii]

Agreed for the most part, resqme... we owe huge gratitude to those that have come before us in the ongoing land-use battle along the Rubicon Trail, especially the property owners. They have bought and paid for their right to be heard with their decades of commitment, and their dollars and hours invested.

That said, it is important to remember that they are not the *ONLY* voice to be heard. Clubs have formally adopted sections of the trail, and Cal4 has worked issues along the Rubicon for years. The Pirates really started to get mobilized with respect to stewardship in the late 90's, and FOTR stepped to the forefront in 2000, with the help of BRC, United, Cal4, clubs, independents, and property owners. There are certainly other groups and independents that have fought for the trail (and sometimes with each other) over the years, so any list is almost guaranteed to be incomplete... but the truth is that this is a much-loved trail that four-wheelers have maintained together.

In that spirit, I've edited the remarks:
One of the biggest reasons the "county road" (read Rubicon Trail) is still open is for access to inheld private property (1). Users and owners taking responsible ownership are the reason the trail has stayed open as long as it has. Organized outfitter trips (2) keep the trail open... they don't close it or cause any more damage than any other large group of vehicles (like a holiday weekend crowd). They have contributed political muscle, money, and personal time to this cause for more than fifty years.

You have a great point -- one I wanted to separate from the private property owners history (which is another strong, but separate point): organized trips keep the trail open. Not just from the trail maintenance that they do, but also in their impacts to the economies of the local counties. Economic impact speaks loudly in government, which pays for itself based on taxes.

Notes:
(1) TTBOMK, property owners include Mark Smith, Rubicon/Soda Springs Consortium, Spider Lake Owners Group, Auburn Jeep Club, probably more.
(2) TTBOMK, outfitter trips include: Jeepers Jamboree, Jeep Jamboree USA, Mark A. Smith Off-Roading, Auburn Jeep Club

Randii

[resqme]

I agree completely, Randi. I wasn't trying to downplay the contributions of ALL the groups who have worked so hard, just making the point that the private property owners and JJ are two of the main reasons the trail is open.

I guess the whole point of this should really be that all of these groups plus private individuals plus new groups that may come along plus four wheel drive clubs that haven't been so active should continue to all work together on this. If we do, I believe the trail will stay open.

[randii]

Together!

Amen!

[cruzila]

I'd really like to see El Dorado County and the El Dorado National Forest added to that list. But I am having reservations at this time. we'll see how it pans out..........................................

[peesalot]

good point regarding the purpose of easement to allow access to the private property.
JJ prolly does not impact as much as one would think.
Are any of the private sections for sale and are any adjacent or close by large ( read as really large ) parcels for sale ? I would like to know what they cost ?

[peesalot]

who wants to go in on a OHV park like the ones back east ?
Good time to start one up . Maybe up by Lake Almanor or somewhere in the Sierra's . I am thinking big , like 2 base camps and other small camp spots through out , water ( either res. or river ) , trails that take a day to get in and camp and a day to get out , RV , family camp areas , hot showers at base camps , sorry for the day dream but I am interested and think there is no better time than now , Smith river area seems attractive for this purpose. Anyone in ? Financing is handled , PR and promotions is handled(if it can be pulled together it will get released in a big way ) ,
Have few people on board but
need:
Legal advice as to insurances needed and licensing issues
Trail survey/construction leader
Camp construction design
input on what type terrain and what trail length, or would it be get the biggest piece of land we can and proceed?
This has lots of work into it and this is really the first it has been put out on a few forums for public input into a Northern Calif. OHV park privately owned .
Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated?

[randii]

Certain parcels near the trail have been available fairly recently (most notably the half section near Rubicon Springs), but were withdrawn from the market. I do not recall the price, but I sure would like to see them held in trust, perhaps by a non-profit like the Rubicon Trail Foundation, committed to maintaining continued access through responsible use.

I would like to see more pay-to-play OHV parks developed in the area, but I don't think Rubicon is that kind of resource. Prairie City, Cow Mountain, and Hollister have good starts and will see more development, but I'd like to see a few of the old quarries opened up for hard-core trail development, so that everyone could find the challenges they seek. I think Peesalot is right -- there's profit opportunity for someone to pull together a large area, if they work the details right.

Peesalot, can you start a new thread here (dunno where it would fit, but it can be moved) about the Smith river area? I'd like to know more about it, and agree that the time is ripe... :cool2:

Randii

[JeepJerrySeinfeld]

i just want to know if i understand this correctly,

they can not close the trail to the private owners and people they
permit to come across because of the easment to there property
to keep them from being land locked. Meaning they nedd a road in and out of there property.

is this correct, if not please explain

[randii]

i just want to know if i understand this correctly...
For the most part, legal precedent is that inheld private property has an access right, whether it is through surrounding private or public lands.

Randii

[jeeperrick]

i just want to know if i understand this correctly,

they can not close the trail to the private owners and people they
permit to come across because of the easment to there property
to keep them from being land locked. Meaning they nedd a road in and out of there property.

is this correct, if not please explain

I might be mistaken, but from what I understand is that private land owners are entitled to reasonable access to their property. Case in point Surprise Canyon, they have denied vehicular access to Panamint City which I understand to be privately owned. If the owner wishes to get to their property they must find another means.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[cruzila]

I might be mistaken, but from what I understand is that private land owners are entitled to reasonable access to their property. Case in point Surprise Canyon, they have denied vehicular access to Panamint City which I understand to be privately owned. If the owner wishes to get to their property they must find another means.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Surprise is not the best example as the land was purchased after closure. Also BLM appartently closed a Congress mandated cherry stem road due to pressure from an enviro group.

Rubicon is a "County Supported" non-maintained road. They want it there. The land owners want access. User groups want access too.

[peesalot]

I was thinking of a private owned OHV so that leaves cow and other similar places out as the forest service rules and overall general plan for public lands would not apply. I'm thinking on a grand scale 1,000's of acres or as much as possible . Remote land. Northern Sierra's , Trinity area maybe . Full on pay to play . Have engineer and promotions people waiting , just need a few land parcels to check out and Real estate agents think the idea is crazy and have no clue where to start . Private party sale is prolly the best that way you can get it up and running before you get publicity and things are easier to get done that way. Major issue is finding property with significant water feature. Please pm me with any potential sites.
Smith river area , people act like it is a secret and there is lots of old Indian lands up there. Thats my bet but the loggers got most of it I believe. A long term lease from a logging Co. is not out of the realm.
C'mon , lets put this together fast and before it gets squished.
There is money in it for sure but first all the set up needs to be done and we can't start ( although it is ready too) until we have property to entertain and access to it to determine feasability.

[randii]

Very much in favor of the concept, Peesalot, but overcommitted as-is. :(
I recommend that you work with a *FEW* promoters to get engaged with some angel investors... but recommend that you steer clear if possible of giving an exclusive to *any* ONE promoter, as they will most always have their best interests at heart as opposed to the park's mission. Walk carfully, but please proceed! :cool2:

Randii

[renolaw]

a club member has 1000+ acres near Loyalton, CA-- all private land-- and we've been developing a private 4x4 ranch up there for last few years. building a trail network thru trees, rox, gullys is/was fun and tread lightly don't count there-- until the trails are finished. trails rated from 1 thru 5+++

mb

[peesalot]

don't need the investors , that part is handled. Money will not influence the concept . Investors will not be needed to launch this.
Promoters , no . More like contact different Comp. series to book events , contact Ian and Jesse and I bet they would be glad to host a segment debuting the park. Local PBB members and such would take care of filling the family and remote camp sites. Dirt bikes in specific area's not intersecting OHV trails.
No , this will be a true pay to play with a homegrown theme. Would like to contact some people who have experienced events nationaly and can coment on the size and ameneties that would be required to be succesful. Kevin C. , Clayton , TLCA exec's ., Comp series competetors and event staff . Have talked with multiple resort/campground owners to determine cost , # , and ameneties of campground to be included and just need the input as far as what would specific needs of ohv community be ? Repair shop onsite ? Food sales ? , Covered gathering area's , secure area for vehicles that need to be left , last but not least , the latrine issue is the most expensive and will take the most time to sort out.