Loon Lake Parking

[randii]

Lots to talk about here... a coupla different thoughts....

[randii]

A handful of 'wheelers parked their tow rigs and trailers at spots in the Loon Lake North Shore Campground, then drove their rigs to the trail. The USFS folks I was working with Friday were *steamed* about this, and were talking about having them all towed. Dunno if that happened or not, but I shudder to think of the :eek: cost :eek: of removing/impounding a tow rig and trailer... all of which will be passed on to the user, PLUS a ticket.

I am not aware of the exact rules for this area, but USFS says they have them signed clearly and that they are willing to tow. They built that campground for Loon Lake users and do not want it used as long-term parking, :( even if you pay all the fees :(

I suggest that 'wheelers NOT camp in the Loon Lake North Shore Campground unless they are planning ONLY day-use of the trail... and even then, you're taking a chance that a ranger may see you gone on one day, see you gone on the next day, and assume you over-nighted away from the campground -- and my understanding is that you need to occupy the campsite in person to avoid a ticket.

Randii

[randii]

On another subject, we need to encourage the county to CLEARLY mark legal parking (and illegal parking) from the Loon Lake Chalet to the west end of the second dam.

In the meantime, park safely to permit traffic and emergency vehicles through! There's scarce room to drive otherwise, and you risk blocking your peers with wide trailers.. and pissing off the rangers and/or LEO.

Randii

[randii]

On 08-25-05, my understanding is that a new Forest Order will go into effect that limits traffic AND PARKING to the 50-foot wide trail easement. I don't know for certain how this will affect base-of-the dam parking at Loon, but I encourage everyone to park carefully until the County and/or Forest Service (mostly the latter) share their enforcement guidelines.

Randii

[Rubicrawler]

Thanks for the info and reminders;)

The lack of set aside parking is going to become yet another problem facing the trail, pitting users against the USFS.

We're holding our Taco Feed at the parking area at the bottom of the spillway on Labor Day weekend. Would you anticipate any problems parking there? IIRC, that area is not USFS land.

[ROCK HUGGER]

Here are a couple of disturbing links to the USFS. :mad3:
first (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/documents/route/enf_mvu_notice01c.pdf)
second (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/projects/route/index.shtml)

[UGET IT]

Thats pretty crappy. If I pay for a camp site and park there and get a ticket I would fight it in court all day. What if I was into fishing or hunting and was gone the entire day..........................

Boy......... we are becoming "Handheld" in everything we do.

Glad the FS was around this weekend to see what we (FOTR)accomplished..............Oh thats right they were'nt there.

Stupid Me............

[vikingsven]

Thats pretty crappy. If I pay for a camp site and park there and get a ticket I would fight it in court all day. What if I was into fishing or hunting and was gone the entire day..........................

Boy......... we are becoming "Handheld" in everything we do.

Glad the FS was around this weekend to see what we (FOTR)accomplished..............Oh thats right they were'nt there.

Stupid Me............

That's exactly what I was thinking. What if you were on the move all day? Or you were out on a "day trip" and your rig breaks down. Are you going to get back to your paid for camp to find a big fat ticket, or even worse that your stuff was towed?? This is out of control!!!!!!!

And the fact theat the forest service doesn't even bother to show up for the FOTR cleanup just goes to show where their commitment really is. They don't give a rat's ass about "cleaning up" the area or "managing" the forest. In fact, we all are beginning to see that closure and unprecidented restrictions are the FS's preferred method of so-called "management".

So are they still receiving their portion of OHV funds? What the hell are they using it for if FOTR and other organizations are handing all the management??

THIS IS RECOCKULOUS!!! :shaking:

[G.C. Bandit]

OK will this is what i want to get cleared up. Is the dirt parking lot right next to the chalet, ok to park in. By reading the signs it basically says no.... But about 10 people i have talked to said it was there for us wheeler to park are tow rig at... confussed!!!
So what the deal..
and if u cant park there can u park in the actuall chalet parking??

[Curly]

Randii, I was with the group camped there. I assume we are talking about the designated campground right before you drop on to the gravel. We had some friends drive all the way down from Oregon for the weekend all trailered rigs with another two from Placerville. You are correct in the fact that the rules are clearly posted. From what I read and remember (don't quote me on this). "Campground must be occupied for the first night and not left unattended for over 24 hrs there after". We arrived on Thursday afternoon and remained at camp the first night. We left for the trail at 8.30 am Friday morning drove into Buck for lunch and where back to camp around 5.30 pm. Upon arriving back at camp we found some rather nasty notes on the tow rigs stating that we had left the camp ground unattended and were in violation (not true). We followed the rules as far as we understood them and paid our fees. Saturday morning we waited around camp until around 10 am in hope to meet up with the rangers to explain the situation, no one showed. We left for the day and headed for the trail. We arrived back at camp around 6.00 pm that evening and used Loon lake for recreation purposes :rolleyes: . We remained in camp until Sunday morning said our goodbyes and went our separate ways home. As far as I can tell no one in our group was in violation of the rules posted. We even made sure all of the rigs were back on the trailers to avoid being in violation of the rules. Randii we as a group are a very considerate and courteous bunch and have always had the trails best interest at heart. We have attended all of the meetings with open minds and I personally keep my ear to the ground as best I can when it comes to concerns about the Rubicon trail. With all the parking issues at the Loon lake area and the fact we had been informed there was going to be a group coming in for a clean up with the FOTR we thought it would be best to suck it up, pay the fees and camp in the campground. I have never camped in a designated camp ground before and after what I saw over the weekend I am not sure I will again. It seems to me the USFS has the crosshairs all over the four wheel drive community but in regards to the camp ground problems every thing I saw being a problem was coming from non four wheelers i.e, dirt bikes running on the black top at 3.00am, motorized scooters doing laps of the camp ground, etc, etc. I would have hate to have seen one of our trucks and trailers being towed away because an over zealous Ranger didn't happen to be at camp at the right time to see us. As I recall we were not away from the camp for over 7 hours and how is this any dam different than if I had been out on my boat fishing for the day? I don't want to be negative about the trail but as I have stated before after I attended the first meeting I get the impression the future of the trail is out of our hands. They have a plan and are going to enforce it with or without our approval. :mad3:

Randii, if you have anymore questions or want to talk to me regarding this PM me for my Phone number.

[Joshua Ryan]

I really want to know why all this B/S? I as a kid spent every summer at loon and never had any problems at all with camping, fishing up there. now days you go on a trip you either too loud, tearing up the land, or parking wrong. And we are to blame for letting it get that way. B/S

[randii]

We're holding our Taco Feed at the parking area at the bottom of the spillway on Labor Day weekend. Would you anticipate any problems parking there? IIRC, that area is not USFS land.
Mark, ownership of this area is confusing -- and 'claimed' ownership may be different than 'actual' ownership. :confused: SMUD owns the dam and the spillway, the county owns the 50-foot easement containing the road, and the forest service has the land between, for the short area where there is land between. Once you get past the spillway, that land belongs to USFS until you get east to about the trees, where the private property begins.

Until we get better say-so, I recommend that your club and taco patrons park perpendicular (not parallel) to the trail, just off the trail. That will fit the most vehicles alongside the trail well within the right-of-way, but still allow traffic to pass. You may want to prepare simple signs encouraging this.

I also suggest that you guys set up 'kitchen' at the helipad, at the top of the hill just north of the Loon spillway... that will get you away from the base-of-the-dam and kiosk parking nightmare (hey, it is a holiday weekend, right?) but you'll still be fully visible from most every direction. I have an FOTR banner that we can hang between vehicles, facing the dam... and I'll see if Mike and Deb will let me hang onto the FOTR shirts and stickers until that weekend. I didn't sell too many of them this weekend, since pretty much everybody was in the Springs and I was at Ellis!

Randii

[randii]

Here are a couple of disturbing links to the USFS. :mad3:
Don't get mad... we've got work to do...

first (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/documents/route/enf_mvu_notice01c.pdf)
This is fall-out from the Eldorado National Forest lawsuit... there should be lots of news on this in the next week.

second (http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/projects/route/index.shtml)
This is ongoing process, handed down from the national level.

Because of the first link, we'll lead the nation in implementing the second link.

We need to start another thread for this... there is much to discuss.

Randii

[randii]

Thats pretty crappy. If I pay for a camp site and park there and get a ticket I would fight it in court all day. What if I was into fishing or hunting and was gone the entire day...
As it was explained to me, USFS staff was instructed to revisit the campsites the following day and ticket/tow if the campsites had not been 'occupied' since their visit the previous day. So as long as people actually the campsite, this is not and issue.

FWIW, USFS might not have made it down into the springs, but Rich and Jeff did spend all morning assisting me in setting up counters on Friday, and Heather and Kelly pulled LEO duty on the trail on Saturday (hoofing it between Ellis and Buck with day-packs and side-arms).

Randii

[randii]

OK will this is what i want to get cleared up. Is the dirt parking lot right next to the chalet, ok to park in. By reading the signs it basically says no.... But about 10 people i have talked to said it was there for us wheeler to park are tow rig at... confussed!!!
Bryan, I'll try to clear this up and get back to you...

In the mean time, I suggest that you not park in either location unless you are staying at the Chalet.

Randii

[randii]

Thanks for posting up, Curly. :cool2:

Friday, when I heard the FS talking about this, I was initially pretty steamed, since it sounded like they were willing to have anyone else park there *BUT* us... after talking to a few other folks and the FS, I can see their point, but only if vehicles are left there and the campsites are left unoccupied.

This is another red herring argument, really -- it has squat to do with whether the non-occupying vehicles are 4x4 tow-wagons (other than these are bigger and so much easier to notice). Apparently USFS will ticket anybody who parks in a campsite but doesn't occupy it. Basically, there's enough demand for these spots that they are infrequently empty. It is kinda lame to park there and not use the site for recreation, and in doing so, block out other users who WOULD use it for recreation.

Curly, I recall meeting you guys on the trail both Friday and Saturday (I was camped at Ellis running the FOTR survey station, with the big black dog). You were in full compliance with the rules, I just didn't know the score when I made my first post, above. I read signs pretty closely, and I figured that if I didn't know the rules, probably others didn't, either. I'm glad you didn't get ticketed, and even happier that you weren't in violation... and I'll follow up with the USFS to make sure they know it, as well.

...we as a group are a very considerate and courteous bunch and have always had the trails best interest at heart. We have attended all of the meetings with open minds and I personally keep my ear to the ground as best I can when it comes to concerns about the Rubicon trail.
Thanks for setting a good example for us all! :beer: :beer: :beer: I learned something from this -- if I camp in the North Shore campground, I'll make double-damn sure it is for day-use, and probably leave a note taped to the windshield to make sure the rangers know it is, too!

Randii

[62d100]

maybe it would be a good idea to have the "rangers" who do take care of the loon lake area to have a regular route that had them up there earlier. That way we dont have more issues like curly and his group had. Most people that use the campground and the trail leave for the trail befor 8:00 and are gone for more than eight hours. Things do happen like traffic and brakage.

[JoshC]

maybe it would be a good idea to have the "rangers" who do take care of the loon lake area to have a regular route that had them up there earlier. That way we dont have more issues like curly and his group had. Most people that use the campground and the trail leave for the trail befor 8:00 and are gone for more than eight hours. Things do happen like traffic and brakage.

Why don't they just not friggin cite people unless they know they should be citing them. Guilty until proven innocent. Love that. :rolleyes:

[JoshC]

Why don't they just not friggin cite people unless they know they should be citing them. Guilty until proven innocent. Love that. :rolleyes:

I just re-read it, I guess they didn't get cited so I was wrong. I just really wish all the games were over (with all the issues surrounding the trail) and we knew what the rules were so we could play accordingly.

[E4ODfixer]

As one of the not so happy campers at Loon lake Campground I figured out how the FS will close the trail. We drove down to the Con Wednesday night from Medford Oregon arrived at Loon lake camp about 11:00 am thursday paid for our camp sites headed for the trail. Meet up with Curly's group Thursday evening and we stayed in our campsites every night we were down.The forest service will close by being complete jerks to all 4 wheel drive trail users until nobody comes and plays anymore they will have won and didnot have to officially close it down because nobody will want to deal with them anymore

[randii]

...I just really wish all the games were over (with all the issues surrounding the trail) and we knew what the rules were so we could play accordingly.
Josh, you just put your finger right on the goal... :cool2:

Randii

[tacomamike]

Josh, you just put your finger right on the goal... :cool2:

Randii

Why would the FS do that? They would rather set us up to fail.

Later,
....Mike
http://www.toy4x4.net/

[randii]

I can't and won't speak to anyone else's goals -- but that's mine: a clear understanding of the issues at hand, and a rational capability to engage them.

Back on track: PARKING. The better we understand the rules, process, and decision-makers, the better we can follow them or work to improve them.

Randii

[vikingsven]

I can't and won't speak to anyone else's goals -- but that's mine: a clear understanding of the issues at hand, and a rational capability to engage them.

Back on track: PARKING. The better we understand the rules, process, and decision-makers, the better we can follow them or work to improve them.

Randii

Ture, but when the rule makers can't even figure them out, how the hell are we supposed to?

[FLASHLIGHTMAN]

OK will this is what i want to get cleared up. Is the dirt parking lot right next to the chalet, ok to park in. By reading the signs it basically says no.... But about 10 people i have talked to said it was there for us wheeler to park are tow rig at... confussed!!!
So what the deal..
and if u cant park there can u park in the actuall chalet parking??

We rented out the Loon Lake Chalet for fatehrs day weekend 2005, a couple friends parked their towrigs and trailers in the chalet parking spaces because i had assumed our group had paid/claim too the parking there.. I was wrong, the forest service and sheriff both stoped and told us TRAILERS AER NOT ALLOWED ON THE PAVMENT PARKING SPACE FOR THE CHALET.. period.. then of course the sheriff parked their quad trailer there and headed in.
All of our friends tow rigs got warnings left on their windshields, the offcials made it clear to us they were very much done giving warning...
They told us the flat gravel parking lot next tothe chalet is for trailer parking.


BRING ON THE BEER BONG!!!

[randii]

Sounds like a great opportunity for improved signage!

Sometimes obtaining compliance to a rule is as simple as communicating it BEFORE enforcing it (with respect to the Chalet).

Randii

[G.C. Bandit]

We rented out the Loon Lake Chalet for fatehrs day weekend 2005, a couple friends parked their towrigs and trailers in the chalet parking spaces because i had assumed our group had paid/claim too the parking there.. I was wrong, the forest service and sheriff both stoped and told us TRAILERS AER NOT ALLOWED ON THE PAVMENT PARKING SPACE FOR THE CHALET.. period.. then of course the sheriff parked their quad trailer there and headed in.

So parking in the gravel at the chalet is OK??

[Rubicrawler]

So parking in the gravel at the chalet is OK??

That's what we've been told.

Another option is to park your tow rig & trailer at Robb's Valley Resort. They charge $5.00/day and have plenty of room on private property;) It's only about 4.5 miles from the Loon Lake trail head.

[FLASHLIGHTMAN]

So parking in the gravel at the chalet is OK??

yes, thats what we were told.

[jeeperrick]

That's what we've been told.

Another option is to park your tow rig & trailer at Robb's Valley Resort. They charge $5.00/day and have plenty of room on private property;) It's only about 4.5 miles from the Loon Lake trail head.

Just remember if you do park at Robbs', your rig has got to be licensed for the street or you stand a chance of getting a ticket. The last time I was at the Con, we discussed this with the LEO we met. They informed us that they turn a blind eye to driving red and green sticker vehicles from the Chalet to the spillway, and from Airport Flats to the Wentworth entrance.
They are definately making this difficult on those of us that trailer our rigs.

[Rubicrawler]

Just remember if you do park at Robbs', your rig has got to be licensed for the street or you stand a chance of getting a ticket. The last time I was at the Con, we discussed this with the LEO we met. They informed us that they turn a blind eye to driving red and green sticker vehicles from the Chalet to the spillway, and from Airport Flats to the Wentworth entrance.
They are definately making this difficult on those of us that trailer our rigs.

Good point. A year ago I would have said that they wouldn't stop you but this year it's open season on wheelers :shaking:

[randii]

They (LEO) informed us that they turn a blind eye to driving red and green sticker vehicles from the Chalet to the spillway, and from Airport Flats to the Wentworth entrance.
They are definately making this difficult on those of us that trailer our rigs.
Exactly how is "turning a blind eye" making it hard on you?

Seems to me like LEO is being flexible on this -- if they followed the letter of the law, they could ticket for OHV (green sticker) use near the ends of the trail. Instead, they are being flexible!

Randii

[Rubicrawler]

I think his point was that we might not be so lucky driving a non-street legal rig all the way from Robb's.

[SanDiegoCJ]

A handful of 'wheelers parked their tow rigs and trailers at spots in the Loon Lake North Shore Campground, then drove their rigs to the trail. The USFS folks I was working with Friday were *steamed* about this, and were talking about having them all towed. Dunno if that happened or not, but I shudder to think of the :eek: cost :eek: of removing/impounding a tow rig and trailer... all of which will be passed on to the user, PLUS a ticket.

I am not aware of the exact rules for this area, but USFS says they have them signed clearly and that they are willing to tow. They built that campground for Loon Lake users and do not want it used as long-term parking, :( even if you pay all the fees :(

I suggest that 'wheelers NOT camp in the Loon Lake North Shore Campground unless they are planning ONLY day-use of the trail... and even then, you're taking a chance that a ranger may see you gone on one day, see you gone on the next day, and assume you over-nighted away from the campground -- and my understanding is that you need to occupy the campsite in person to avoid a ticket.

Randii



This is NOTHING NEW. I camped at "North Shore" about 6 years ago and the
FS Ranger made a point of telling us that we were NOT allowed to leave our
towrigs in a campsite and not spend the night in that campsite, even if the
site was paid for. We were told the same thing the next year by the camp
hosts at Gerle Creek.

[welndmn]

This is NOTHING NEW. I camped at "North Shore" about 6 years ago and the
FS Ranger made a point of telling us that we were NOT allowed to leave our
towrigs in a campsite and not spend the night in that campsite, even if the
site was paid for. We were told the same thing the next year by the camp
hosts at Gerle Creek.
I remember Camo got a ticket for this about 4 years ago as well

[UGET IT]

Its still stupid and discriminatory. If you pay the fee then who cares. They have no accurate way of seeing when you arrive or when you leave. Shit I could be day wheeling and go back for snacks and sodas and still be ticketed.

This is just bad bus. and thats my opinion.

Am I pissed at the FS????Yes I am..............

Instead of playing games they should be inventoring roads or the roads we have left in the county instead of this crap.

Bad attitude...............MMM HMMM

Ready to keep up the fight.............MMM HMMM

Ready to continue to take this crap....................NO WAY!

[vikingsven]

Its still stupid and discriminatory. If you pay the fee then who cares. They have no accurate way of seeing when you arrive or when you leave. Shit I could be day wheeling and go back for snacks and sodas and still be ticketed.

This is just bad bus. and thats my opinion.

Am I pissed at the FS????Yes I am..............

Instead of playing games they should be inventoring roads or the roads we have left in the county instead of this crap.

Bad attitude...............MMM HMMM

Ready to keep up the fight.............MMM HMMM

Ready to continue to take this crap....................NO WAY!

Yep. That about sums it up.

[rockwrangler]

I don't know ? But reducing the areas for trailer parking seems like an easy way for the "FS". To reduce the buggies and trailered vehicles using the Rubicon thus limit the show and croud draw.
This may not be the case BUT one has to wonder :confused:

[NOTPRETTY]

If I am reading the Route Inventory process on the FS website correctly, the deadline to submit additional routes for review that are not currently in the inventory is in.....

8 days.

We should sit down with their maps and make sure everything we want is listed and if it isn't submit the redtape forms that are required to get it each route we want considered. Not that they will approve anything, but we know if we don't submit them we won't get them.

[NOTPRETTY]

The FS has much work to do to clear up the parking issue if you ask me. It is vague as hell. I too have heard that parking next to but not right at the Chalet is fine...from the FS...I think it was Rich P. But honestly, I doubt any clarity will occur any time soon. This is just another example of the FS trying to drive off off-roaders.

I don't know what more we need to see to understand the FS is targeting the off-road community. This is what the FS is thinking...from their site:

The expansion of OHV use on national forests and grasslands is impacting the natural and cultural resources of federal lands. The Chief of the Forest Service has identified unmanaged recreation -- especially impacts from OHVs -- as one of the key threats facing the National Forests today. Some OHV use has resulted in unplanned roads and trails, soil erosion, watershed and habitat degradation, as well as, impacts on cultural resource sites.



I did see this and that it gave me some hope...well a little anyway. This quote, again from thier site, under dispersed camping indicates there may be some flexiblity by the FS when it comes to parking on/near the 50 foot easment:

"....Your vehicle however, will need to be parked on a route that is signed as open for motorized vehicles (or within a reasonable distance so as to not block the roadway or create a safety hazard)."

[G.C. Bandit]

Well im going up this weekend as well as labor day weekend. Im going to ask in person a FS if parking in the chalet dirt area is indeed ok this weekend... If i dont see anyone, will probably just park there, and ill let ya guys know if i get one of those cool little yellow papers on my windshield.. That will give us a forsure answer!

[WRANGLER BOB]

Randi

I Do Remember Passing You In And Out Both Days You Took The Survey On Friday Morning But This Is Just The Tip Of The Problem I Use The Trail Once Maybe Twice A Year We Did Drive Down Weds Night Got There Thursday Morning Met With The Rest Of The Group Thursday Night After Wheelin All Day We Were Not In Compliance On Two Points First We Did Have A Jeep Off The Trailer Broken In Camp Friday Without Paying The Extra $5 Dollars For It We Did Not Know This Because Oregon Don't Play That Game But To Threaten To Tow Over A $5 Dollar Fee Is Rediculous We Also Set A Set Of Toyota Doors In A Camp Spot For Our Group With Sign On It And For Them To Take The Sign And Throw The Doors In The Dumpster Is Also Rediculous As For The Notes About Not Being Phisically In Camp As My Note Was Underlined If They Would Have Returned In The Evening Or Even At The Same Time They Would Have Seen Us Phisically In Camp Not To Mention That All Our Coolers And Bbq's And Stoves And Lanterns And A Air Matress Hanging Out Of My Truck And Tent Next To My Truck They Walked Right By They Would Have Not Had A Chip On There Shoulder When Leaving Us Stupid Notes About The Matter They Are Just Doing One Thing After Another To Force Us To Stop Using The Trail Rather Than Deal With Their Bs Last Year We Roled In On A Auto Transport For The Clean Up Weekend And 2 Of Us Got Tickets Before We Were Off The Trailer For Not Being Registered So We Donated $135 Each For The Cause

[62d100]

Maybe the forest service should hold a meeting with the FOTR and other groups and come up with a parking plan and staging area on loon lake rd. for tow rigs and trailers. This way everyones ideas can be heard. Someone needs to talk to Rich or Frank to set something like this up so we dont have more problems in the future.

[randii]

Bob, I'm pooling this information and following up with the Forest Service on it for clarification. If USFS staff threw a set of doors in the dumpster, that needs addressed with their management.

I have not read the signs that are there in a while, but it sounds like more clarification is required. It sounds as if there was sufficient BBQ, stove, and air mattress evident to indicate that you were occupying the site in the evenings... I can't imagine they would expect any user to be in camp the WHOLE time -- as most users recreate by hiking, fishing, swimming, boating, and other activities that would keep them away from the campsite.

Please send me the text of the note they left you so that I can forward a copy of it for clarification... I'm cool with the Forest Service enforcing the rules, but if they are enforcing them differently to different groups, we need to talk about it directly with the Forest Supervisor.

Randii

[Simple Man]

Please check the maps for your favorite trails.

The different forests have contracted to have the trails inventoried. Within the ENF near Tahoe, the contractor missed a trail that access some repeaters and antennas on top of Sourdough Peak.

If they left that trail off they've left other trails off.

[tacomamike]

Please check the maps for your favorite trails.

The different forests have contracted to have the trails inventoried. Within the ENF near Tahoe, the contractor missed a trail that access some repeaters and antennas on top of Sourdough Peak.

If they left that trail off they've left other trails off.

I could be mistaken, but it looks like a very short section of the McKinstry trail is missing right before it meets up with the Rubicon trail at Ellis Creek?

Later,
....Mike
http://www.toy4x4.net/

[GreenCJ]

I was the one with the rig off the trailer. In Oregon if you trailer or tow bar a vehicle into a campground (even USFS) it is not considered a second vehicle, so it never occured to me to be an issue. As soon as I became aware of the rule I promptly trailered my rig. We slept there every night including dinner & breakfast. I felt we were considered guilty until proven innocent. It also was evident the ranger got more angry as he went from camp to camp as the notes got ruder. As Curly said, there were motorcycles and scooters (very loud & late) that were blatentley (sp) disrupting the campground. The rangers didn't seem to have a problem with this. USFS also took a set of doors that were used to hold a sign for a person in our group without leaving any note or way to get them back. The next day we found the doors in the trash dumpster. It's obvious to me we were singled out, too bad it's come to this.

[vikingsven]

Sounds like the FS needs a wake up call!! I don't see how they could legally get away with harassing people like this (this is harassment!) and even worse, taking private property and throwing it away!! (theft?) Unbelievable!!!

[peesalot]

So from what I gather : For Tow rig/Trailer

Parking parrallel on the gravel just before dam is o.k.

Parking parrallel in the wide spots along paved road just before it goes to gravel is o.k.

Parking down at spillway in the big open area to the left and up under big tree is o.k.

Parking on gravel to right of chalet is o.k.

[Lil Uzi]

Nobody wants to hear, no one will admit it. Its an unpopular opinion on this board. The trailers are the problem here. Street legal, drive it in, drive it out. All the way across the Con. No parking problem. Think back a few years. There weren't always trailers and off road only rigs. They weren't the norm. They are becoming the norm. The parking area has remained the same, but the "sport" has changed to be more demanding on the regulatory agency. Regulation becomes necessary when one use impacts another. The trail parking is impacting the area that others use. Just put on your USFS hat for about five minutes. Look at it from over there. What are you going to do ? What happens when the numbers of trailers and OHV double again in 3 years ? And again In six ? Is the trend towards street leagal trail worthy rigs, or is the trail getting harder, and changing the norm to specialized trailer carried rigs ? The original use of the area as envisioned from USFS and the Utility was camping and recreation, and yes, there was a historic JEEP trail. Its hard to swallow if you have the buggy and trailer, and tow rig, but step back and look at whats become of it.

[CrazyHorse]

I used to park at robbs or Ice house and drive the rest of the way to the trail, but after being hassled a couple of times for removing my mud flaps at the trailer (and when I parked at robbs for leaving the windshield too) that I quit, and now I park right at the trailhead...

[NOTPRETTY]

Nobody wants to hear, no one will admit it. Its an unpopular opinion on this board. The trailers are the problem here. Street legal, drive it in, drive it out. All the way across the Con. No parking problem. Think back a few years. There weren't always trailers and off road only rigs. They weren't the norm. They are becoming the norm. The parking area has remained the same, but the "sport" has changed to be more demanding on the regulatory agency. Regulation becomes necessary when one use impacts another. The trail parking is impacting the area that others use. Just put on your USFS hat for about five minutes. Look at it from over there. What are you going to do ? What happens when the numbers of trailers and OHV double again in 3 years ? And again In six ? Is the trend towards street leagal trail worthy rigs, or is the trail getting harder, and changing the norm to specialized trailer carried rigs ? The original use of the area as envisioned from USFS and the Utility was camping and recreation, and yes, there was a historic JEEP trail. Its hard to swallow if you have the buggy and trailer, and tow rig, but step back and look at whats become of it.

I see it just the opposite...the trend in the last 1.5 seasons is less vehicles. The numbers support that too. Since the first closure at Spider things have fallen way off. With this new FS closure coupled with gas/diesel prices rising I strongly expect the volume to continue to fall.

[randii]

Marlon is correct, the numbers ARE dropping for now. It is a good question whether this is negative pressure on trail counts from gas prices, the Spider Lake closures, or the enhanced enforcement efforts... Keep in mind that there is also positive pressure on trail counts from the expanding popularity of the hobby, general population increase, increased growth in Sacramento/El Dorado/Placer counties, and decreased recreational opportunity elsewhere. Right now, on the trail, we see reduced use when compared to peak years like 2002 and 2003, but if (when?) positive pressure overwhelms negative pressure, we'll be right back into overuse unless we can get rid of or educate the outlaws/idiots and minimize impact across the hobby.
The good news is that FOTR has already made good progress in minimizing impact! Education on the web, at the kiosk, through handouts, and on the trail... enhanced peer enforcement efforts and continuous volunteer repair/maintenace/improvements along the trail is working well, IMHO. Now we need our agency partners to step up -- that's the meat of the Rubicon Trail Master Plan (RTMP), IMHO. An important part of that RTMP is to continue counting and assessing trail use, to make sure that the resource can sustain the use. 2004 and 2005 saw dramatically reduced use (I estimate a third of peak years), but we do need to plan ahead for higher-use years. My hope is that our reduced impact across the hobby will allow a higher carrying capacity than in past years, and still have NET less effect.

That said, Mark has a damn good point, as well -- the increased in trailered vehicles (and two vehicle/trailer parking at the trailhead) is putting new pressure on the trail, as well. The parking has stayed more or less the same, and the usage has changed dramatically.
Our agency partners need to work with us to develop expanded parking solutions for all users (4x4s, ATVs, cycles, and sleds), and manage them for multiple users. A well-developed parking area in the quarry near the chalet and OHV designation to connect it to the trailhead would focus trailer parking away from the trailhead, instead of spreading it throughout the forest and pressuring trailer users to 'cheat' the rules.
There are plenty of opportunities for good parking solutions, but we need to keep working this in the Rubicon Oversight Committee (ROC) with FOTR, interested parties, and our agency partners. Right now, the ROC is focusing on the RTMP, but we users need to keep the heat on the ROC to work parking issues, ESPECIALLY with the new Forest Order.

Randii

[Lil Uzi]

"The numbers are dropping for now"

Surely the USFS is aware of this data, no ?

[randii]

Surely the USFS is aware of this data, no ?
They are well aware of the downward trend in current use.
Their current actions are in response to a lawsuit that was started a few years back and just settled now, and a national designation/inventory process that was already ramping up. Sprinkle in resource over-use from 2002/2003 in certain areas, and we're where we are today... and that's all without any conspiracy theory or claims of green or closurists agendas. :(

Randii

[Lance]

I don't know for certain how this will affect base-of-the dam parking at Loon, but I encourage everyone to park carefully until the County and/or Forest Service (mostly the latter) share their enforcement guidelines.

Randii

Isn't the land at the base of the dam SMUD property?

[randii]

Isn't the land at the base of the dam SMUD property?
Some of it, certainly. IIRC, they have the dam plus a buffer dimension, and the spillways plus a buffer dimension. Between them, and overlapping the edge of the spillway buffer most of the way, is the county's road easement. That leaves a small sliver, IIRC of USFS jurisdiction.

Crazy, eh?

Randii

[1uglyranger]

So, i have been following this thread, and a similar thread on our BB, and am still unsure where to park next weekend.???
Anyone have a good safe answer? If I park at airport flats, or Robbs, I am commited to driving on the road for a minimum of 4 miles, and really don't feel like being harassed by LEO's.... ya know :(

[G.C. Bandit]

Well we went up this weekend, and me and a buddy of mine decided to park in the gravel area at the chalet. Well we unloaded the rigs off the trailer, and some guy came up to me and said that he was told yesterday(Friday) that they warned him not to park there. So I drove the rig and had someone else drive the tow rig to the staging area and thats were we ended up parking...
SO i dont know who to believe, i jsut didnt want to take the chance of having my shit towed away..

[1uglyranger]

So no one knows where the best place to park is??

[randii]

I touched base with Mark on this, Brian... I've PM'ed you my phone to discuss further, if you want.

Unless we can get a definite say-so from the Forest Service (I'll ask again, but haven't heard back yet) about what their enforcement standard will be. For most certain legality, I recommend:
* park all vehicles as much as possible within the 50' county trail easement, still allowing safe flow of traffic. There's PLENTY of room to park nose-out after the spillway, up the granite slabs, leading toward Gatekeeper.
* drop off OHV-stickered non-street-legal rigs at the bottom of the dam, and partner with a street-legal 4x4 to park the tow and trailer at Airport Flats
* leave vehicles lacking an OHV-sticker or street-tags at home.

If you don't mind gambling, there's plenty of precedent and unlikely to be enforcement on vehicles parked:
* in the spillway itself, near where the Dysfunctional Crew will be serving tacos
* at the base of the dam, closer to the dam than the road
* around the helipad above the spillway (but not blocking it)

Keep in mind that this is Labor Day weekend, one of the three largest weekends of the year. There will certainly be many folks up there, before you even factor in this excellent fundraiser. Try to get along -- there will be multiple users, across multiple uses (hikers, bikers, ATVers, motorcyclists, 'wheelers, etc.) and within our own hobby (from stock to fullly custom, from California-legal to Arkansas-legal).

Randii

[ActionAxle]

Randii, I was with the group camped there. I assume we are talking about the designated campground right before you drop on to the gravel. We had some friends drive all the way down from Oregon for the weekend all trailered rigs with another two from Placerville. You are correct in the fact that the rules are clearly posted. From what I read and remember (don't quote me on this). "Campground must be occupied for the first night and not left unattended for over 24 hrs there after". We arrived on Thursday afternoon and remained at camp the first night. We left for the trail at 8.30 am Friday morning drove into Buck for lunch and where back to camp around 5.30 pm. Upon arriving back at camp we found some rather nasty notes on the tow rigs stating that we had left the camp ground unattended and were in violation (not true). We followed the rules as far as we understood them and paid our fees. Saturday morning we waited around camp until around 10 am in hope to meet up with the rangers to explain the situation, no one showed. We left for the day and headed for the trail. We arrived back at camp around 6.00 pm that evening and used Loon lake for recreation purposes :rolleyes: . We remained in camp until Sunday morning said our goodbyes and went our separate ways home. As far as I can tell no one in our group was in violation of the rules posted. We even made sure all of the rigs were back on the trailers to avoid being in violation of the rules. Randii we as a group are a very considerate and courteous bunch and have always had the trails best interest at heart. We have attended all of the meetings with open minds and I personally keep my ear to the ground as best I can when it comes to concerns about the Rubicon trail. With all the parking issues at the Loon lake area and the fact we had been informed there was going to be a group coming in for a clean up with the FOTR we thought it would be best to suck it up, pay the fees and camp in the campground. I have never camped in a designated camp ground before and after what I saw over the weekend I am not sure I will again. It seems to me the USFS has the crosshairs all over the four wheel drive community but in regards to the camp ground problems every thing I saw being a problem was coming from non four wheelers i.e, dirt bikes running on the black top at 3.00am, motorized scooters doing laps of the camp ground, etc, etc. I would have hate to have seen one of our trucks and trailers being towed away because an over zealous Ranger didn't happen to be at camp at the right time to see us. As I recall we were not away from the camp for over 7 hours and how is this any dam different than if I had been out on my boat fishing for the day? I don't want to be negative about the trail but as I have stated before after I attended the first meeting I get the impression the future of the trail is out of our hands. They have a plan and are going to enforce it with or without our approval. :mad3:

Randii, if you have anymore questions or want to talk to me regarding this PM me for my Phone number.
I think I was the only one who was was non compliant. I stayed 2 of 3 nights and camped there the first night, I was only gone 30 hours due to a break down. I guess they left a nasty note on my truck too. WTF??

Did you notice I had 1.5 Jeeps/Samurais on my trailer the last night? The rules never stated all wheels must be off the ground.


Just because there was not a tent set up, I'm not camping? We slept on the flat bed the first night. Next time I will set up a cheap tent and throw in an old sleeping bag.

At least the Forest Circus Ranger won't ASSUME I'm just taking up a camping spot.

Those missing doors was complete BS! I hope someone follows through on that one.

They are just tring to run us off. The good ol boys will quit running the trail and the new punk assholes will take over. Closure for sure.

I can't believe how many drunks I saw on the trail! People running over boundry markers and just causing general mayhem. It's no wonder why we are being treated this way.

[randii]

Dennis got further information from USFS for 2005 parking in this thread:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=389498

Parking is legal in the Chalet graveled area, which is off to the right as you enter the Chalet area, as long as you do not block access to the clearly marked helipad. Please park closely parallel to maximize the available spaces. USFS is not enforcing against OHV travel between the trailhead and the FOTR Kiosk at the base of the second dam.
DO NOT PARK ON THE PAVED AREA AROUND OR NEAR THE CHALET. You will be cited and/or towed.

USFS also said that the area below the dam is still OK to use. Once again please park neatly so your vehicle dosen't prevent 2 or 3 others from parking.

Please also refer to the post "Wentworth Springs Parking" to be prepared in case there is no parking left around Loon Lake: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386952

Please note that this applies only to parking for 2005, and will require subsequent review.

[Rubicrawler]

When parking, park in such a way to fit as many rigs as possible without blocking other people in. This will go a long way to lessen the parking problems facing us;)