I got an option to get a front HP44 with ford coil buckets and I beleave the right wheel lug pattern.... or a front waggy driver drop thats a 6 lug.

Which would be easier to convert to a TJ?... why?... advantage and dissadvantage to them?

I have 35" MTR's, ARB's. 456 gears, 4:1 I now live further from Rock country in OH... mustly mudd here... YUKKKKK.... Im a daily driver. have factory 44 rear already

so whats yall's thoughts. a search says buy a 60 and not much real detail from there

Either of them are going to be work to convert. I say go with the stronger front end. The HP 44. Driving them on the right side of the teeth. As you said, the bolt pattern is already 5 on 5.5. How did you convert the rear?

Originally posted by Grendel
Either of them are going to be work to convert. I say go with the stronger front end. The HP 44. Driving them on the right side of the teeth. As you said, the bolt pattern is already 5 on 5.5. How did you convert the rear?

Your saying the Hp is a stronger 44, over a regular 44? As to my rear.. its my stock TJ rear ... bought it that way in 97

A high pinion is slightly weaker as I understand. But for a front, I don't think that a high pinion is warranted. I guess depending on your lift.

I have around 8" of lift and no high pinion. Sure it would reduce the driveshaft angle to have a high pinion, but how much is too much?

Right.. what he said.. either one will be work to convert. As far as your bolt pattern, if its a factory D44 rear, its got 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern, not 5 on 5.5.....
Scott

Originally posted by coachgeo


Your saying the Hp is a stronger 44, over a regular 44? As to my rear.. its my stock TJ rear ... bought it that way in 97

Yes, a HP or reverse cut 44 is going to be stronger in the front. It's running on the "right" side of the gear for the driection you want to go. A standard cut is as strong in the rear.

Picture how the drive shaft connects to the pinion. The relationship to the ring gear doesn't change.

Originally posted by Bob/CA
A high pinion is slightly weaker as I understand. But for a front, I don't think that a high pinion is warranted. I guess depending on your lift.

I have around 8" of lift and no high pinion. Sure it would reduce the driveshaft angle to have a high pinion, but how much is too much?

HP is weaker in the rear. Est is about 20-30%. Not true for frontal applications.

Your question of lift is mitigated by that fact that you're running a CJ-8. Can get away with much more lift before running out of ujoint angles on the driveshafts, but my guess is that you knew that.

Im going to edit my original post at the top but those who didnt get it these are front diffs... and the HP is a factory ford one.

Yep. got it.

That is why I say go in the front with the HP/.

Originally posted by Grendel
Yep. got it.

That is why I say go in the front with the HP/.

ok.... I beleave ya

I am curiouse; then is a waggy front dana 44 actually is running on the weak side of the gears cause its not an HP (or RC... what eva u want to name it)

yes, reverse in front is stronger, standard in rear is stronger... id go hp for your front, this will help you flatten out your skid plate down the road for better clearance....

Originally posted by coachgeo


ok.... I beleave ya

I am curiouse; then is a waggy front dana 44 actually is running on the weak side of the gears cause its not an HP (or RC... what eva u want to name it)

Yes. This is the case with any standard cut front end.
This is why Ffford went with RC housings in the front. Also some Jeeps are running RC Dana 30's.

Note: I am running a standard front end. Just something I deal with.

Wonder if the new Rubicon is going to have a standard 44 or a RC? hmmmmmmm

Originally posted by coachgeo
Wonder if the new Rubicon is going to have a standard 44 or a RC? hmmmmmmm

Considering that most of the new jeep line up is standard fronts, I would say standard rotation.

Ford is the only one I've seen with a RC44.

is $300 a fair price for a RC front 44 "including" shipping?

I forget... what is the WMS to WMS on a TJ front?

What about the rear?...

The Ford front is around 67" WMS to WMS the owner thinks.
Im curiouse if I can go full width in front and use wheel spacers in back till I get a dana 60 to put back there? hmmmm..
Not sure I need to go that beffy... I've never broke and axil yet but then again now im in more slipery country so RPM's will be higher.

WMS= Wheel Mounting Surface

Whether you are running a CJ-8 or a CJ-7, the front driveshaft is the same length.

As far as the front being weaker standard rotation, I don't think I follow.

Originally posted by Bob/CA
Whether you are running a CJ-8 or a CJ-7, the front driveshaft is the same length.

As far as the front being weaker standard rotation, I don't think I follow.

WHATTTTTTT?????????? are u in the wrong post?????

nothing was asked about a CJ7 or CJ8 and nothing was asked about drive shafts?

If you read above.. it seems to have been said that the Reverse Cut (HP) Dana 44 is stronger..

Question... does RC need special lockers....? if so are they manufactured for RC... I got ARB's now though I may consider an OX lock in front.

Originally posted by coachgeo


WHATTTTTTT?????????? are u in the wrong post?????

nothing was asked about a CJ7 or CJ8 and nothing was asked about drive shafts?

If you read above.. it seems to have been said that the Reverse Cut (HP) Dana 44 is stronger..

Question... does RC need special lockers....? if so are they manufactured for RC... I got ARB's now though I may consider an OX lock in front.

Coach, you've been smellin' too many jock straps.:D

"Your question of lift is mitigated by that fact that you're running a CJ-8. Can get away with much more lift before running out of ujoint angles on the driveshafts, but my guess is that you knew that."

Jeez.:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Bob/CA
A high pinion is slightly weaker as I understand. But for a front, I don't think that a high pinion is warranted. I guess depending on your lift.

I have around 8" of lift and no high pinion. Sure it would reduce the driveshaft angle to have a high pinion, but how much is too much?

HP is stronger by 15-20% if used in the front as designed.

another thing to consider si that in order to setup the waggy front you need to weld your coild buckets to the housing and I dont think that would work(atleast not like a leaf spring would)...I would get the HP for the strength ease of install and that price isn't too bad either

Originally posted by Bob/CA


Coach, you've been smellin' too many jock straps.:D

"Your question of lift is mitigated by that fact that you're running a CJ-8. Can get away with much more lift before running out of ujoint angles on the driveshafts, but my guess is that you knew that."

Jeez.:flipoff2:

hmmmm and u been smelling that glue that makes u wakey... bwwwwwwahahahaha.... ahhhh I DONT HAVE A CJ8... unless u call a TJ that. Also... I have a 3" suspension lift and a one inch body lift..... and Im not lifting anymore, just upgrading my front end.

My rear driveline has a CV joint but it dont matter cause like I said Im not increasing my lift. Also a HP front end will probably bring my front drive shaft back to horizontal.

Originally posted by Supergper
another thing to consider si that in order to setup the waggy front you need to weld your coild buckets to the housing and I dont think that would work(atleast not like a leaf spring would)...I would get the HP for the strength ease of install and that price isn't too bad either

Well... the same for the Ford front 44. I still have to put new coil buckets on. as well as controll arm mounts etc.

Originally posted by coachgeo


hmmmm and u been smelling that glue that makes u wakey... bwwwwwwahahahaha.... ahhhh I DONT HAVE A CJ8... unless u call a TJ that. Also... I have a 3" suspension lift and a one inch body lift..... and Im not lifting anymore, just upgrading my front end.

My rear driveline has a CV joint but it dont matter cause like I said Im not increasing my lift. Also a HP front end will probably bring my front drive shaft back to horizontal.


Want to look at who I was quoting, dippy doo-doo?:flipoff2:

Originally posted by coachgeo
is $300 a fair price for a RC front 44 "including" shipping?

I forget... what is the WMS to WMS on a TJ front?

What about the rear?...

The Ford front is around 67" WMS to WMS the owner thinks.
Im curiouse if I can go full width in front and use wheel spacers in back till I get a dana 60 to put back there? hmmmm..
Not sure I need to go that beffy... I've never broke and axil yet but then again now im in more slipery country so RPM's will be higher.

WMS= Wheel Mounting Surface

That is an awesome price including shipping. No special lockers required. Just special gears for special people.

Originally posted by 66CJdean


HP is stronger by 15-20% if used in the front as designed.

...when traveling in a forward direction. When you hit reverse you're pushing on the "weak side" of the teeth just as surely as a standard cut diff in the front end does (when traveling forward).

Originally posted by Grendel


That is an awesome price including shipping. No special lockers required. Just special gears for special people.

U mean I could become SPECIALLLLLL .... OHHH I gottta do it nowwwwwwwww......

:D :D :D :p

Got a thick skin already eh?

Good deal.

Coach, I was relying to Grendel's post.:rolleyes:

hmmmm ok.... I must have lost something there... cause I never saw him post anything in here about his rig.... I saw only responces to my HP questions. But.... I can be retard at times

Hey I got a good friend in Sonora

They own All American Gymnastics. Ken and Patty Williams


Real good folk.

Ken loved it when I took him for a trip over forest roads. Rest of the trails were closed off that day. Not that that was wheeling to me.. but he thought it was.

Originally posted by coachgeo
I DONT HAVE A CJ8... unless u call a TJ that. Also... I have a 3" suspension lift and a one inch body lift..... and Im not lifting anymore, just upgrading my front end.


Ok coach here's how the storyline went. Bob mentioned that he has a CJ8 with 8" of lift and no HP. Someone else mentioned that he had a CJ8 and could get away with it because of the long rear driveline. Bob's response which you did manage to see was that CJ7 or CJ8 doesn't matter since he was talking front and the length doesn't come into play there. Get it?

Bob a standard cut front ring/pinion are turning in the opposite side as they are on a rear. This means that power is applied to the coast side of the gears and not the drive side. This is why they are weaker in a front application. Reverse holds true for reverse cut and is why reverse cut is weaker in a rear application.

Originally posted by coachgeo


Well... the same for the Ford front 44. I still have to put new coil buckets on. as well as controll arm mounts etc.

You have more room on the HP44 to weld the buckets on the driver side...on the waggy you would be putting the backet on the diff where on the HP the diff is more towards the pass side so you have more room for the bucket(it can be welded on the tube instead of the diff)...I know I prolly just made no sence:D:D:D

Originally posted by Supergper


You have more room on the HP44 to weld the buckets on the driver side...on the waggy you would be putting the backet on the diff where on the HP the diff is more towards the pass side so you have more room for the bucket(it can be welded on the tube instead of the diff)...I know I prolly just made no sence:D:D:D

U made perfect sence..... TY for the clarification.

you're original post says the Ford already has the coil buckets on it.:confused:

Coach, buy it. Does it have a drivers side pig?

Did you see this post?

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38937

Cbasset just did what you are talking about. Great pics too. Great ideas too.

To summarize as I read it.

REVERSE CUT in the front is stronger because its driving on the correct side of the gear.

Standard cut is stronger in the rear because its driving on the correct side of the gear.

Reverse cut in the rear will work if you set it up to drive on the strong side of the gear but it is still 20% weaker than a standard cut.
But you need someone who knows his SHEIOT to set it up for ya.

cj-jeeper: "Ford coil buckets". Not TJ. And radius arm mounts. It is an F150 front...

Bert, what do you mean by set the RC rear up to drive on the strong side of the gear? Sure, if you drive in reverse all the time.

RC rear going forward, you drive on the coast (weaker) side of the Ring gear. No way around that. Your post implies there is.:confused:

Rick

yes you can set up the rearend to drive on the Other side of the gear. Thus making it a bit stronger. The pinion actually pushes instead of pulling..

I hope I didn't confuse you too much.

Maybee SEAN can help us out here..

GEARMAN HELP

That would be a std. cut rear then. Not a HP / RC.... .

It is the nature of the ring and pinion beast that in one direction you will drive on the 'wrong' side of the teeth. In a high pinion / RC rear, this just so happens to be when driving forward.

RC was originally designed by Dana for Ford to gain gear set strength in the FRONT of their pickups. Prior to RC, a front 4WD std. cut R+P axle was and is driving on the weaker coast side of the teeth.

Check out Dyntatrac's site. Reverse cut / rotation are probably the singlemost misunderstood terms in 4WD....

Rick

Been trying to tell them this :-p

See my earlier posts, rIck :skull:

You're right and I did. Just thought I'd throw a fresh perspective at it.

That said, I was eating u-joints long before (never) gears in a std cut front. IMO a std cut front 44 is plenty strong in Jeeps since the gears are generally not the weak link.

HP diffs are nice to get the driveshafts up high and protected. Which is part of the reason I went HP9" (actually 609) front and HP60 rear.

Rick

Cool!

I decided I am staying with the D-44 I have in front. Probably going 9" in the rear.

Rick, I have been following the rev cut rev rot thing for a long time.
yes I see what you are saying. But I am not describing what I am saying quite right. It can be done. It was done on my rear end.

And it will not be a standard cut w/ a high pinion.

yes REV cut and REV rot are misused. I agree. But the gears can be set with the pinion depth different to have it on the strong side of the gear when driveing forward in a REV (highpinion) rearend that has been moved to the rear.

ASK GEARMAN.

Thanks for the clarification. I understand what you are saying now. You are still driving on the coast side of the gear set. No way around that inherent strength loss.

I doubt you can gain a significant percent of that strength back by getting more heel vs toe contact on the tooth. If you are running a HP60, I wouldn't be too worried about it....

Anyway, makes for a good technical discussion. Doesn't really help coachgeo choose a front axle though. I am working on sourcing a leaf sprung HP44 front for him now.

Rick

main thing is I would like an HP that is easiest to convert....

once u add alll the things into play... esp. if the opportunity to go High steer exist in the package

Originally posted by Bert
Coach, buy it. Does it have a drivers side pig?

Did you see this post?

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38937

Cbasset just did what you are talking about. Great pics too. Great ideas too.



Yeah I saw good pics.. but not much detail... Thanks for pointing it out though..

Originally posted by coachgeo
hmmmm ok.... I must have lost something there... cause I never saw him post anything in here about his rig.... I saw only responces to my HP questions. But.... I can be retard at times

Hey I got a good friend in Sonora

They own All American Gymnastics. Ken and Patty Williams


Real good folk.

Ken loved it when I took him for a trip over forest roads. Rest of the trails were closed off that day. Not that that was wheeling to me.. but he thought it was.

I remember you. Didn't you used to be on the west coast? WTF are you doing all the way in Ohio?

I don't think I know them. But if they drink espresso drinks, I probably have seen them.:D

Originally posted by Bob/CA


I remember you. Didn't you used to be on the west coast? WTF are you doing all the way in Ohio?

I don't think I know them. But if they drink espresso drinks, I probably have seen them.:D

Yeah..... I moved away from the best rockcrawling in the country.... gaaawdddd what a fooollll...

I probably asked you the same question last time to. I do remember asking a Sonora person about Ken and Patty before.

Basically I moved to better paying job..... andddd to help rescue a dear friend in need.. a task I failed at..... :( :(:(:(:(:(:mad3: (If there was a broken heart emoticon on the bulleton that would go HERE)

I grew up on the shores of Lake Erie. You need to get back here quick before your rig turns into a rust bucket.:D

the signs are showing all ready trust me!

Coachgeo,

Your getting a ton of mixed info here...

Ford 44/Reverse Cut: I would recommend finding one without the radius arms. The radius arm mounts are cast in and are a pain to get off the housing. The leaf spring ford reverse cut 44's found in F-250's and the like would be simple to convert but will be on the wide side if you want something to match your stock rear 44, if you aren't worried about narrowing, this is the axle I would look for.

Waggy 44/Standard Cut: Find a Waggoner driver's side drop 44 without that weirdo disconnect, and you'll be golden(you can tell because this style disconnect is on the cover, if it has a regular cover it is the one you want). They are the perfect width for a late model Jeeps. All you'd need to do is weld on the rubicon express bracket kit. I'd recommend changing out to earlier style outers, which are flat top. I believe all the drivers side drop used bigger spindles which means you can't do the ford hub/rotor thing for 5x5.5" bolt pattern easily. I've also never seen a drivers drop with flat top knuckles. If you talk to Parts Mike Monahan(www.partsmike.com)he can get you some knuckles that have the correct taper for the small tie rod ends the TJ uses, your steering would bolt right up with those.

Standard vs Reverse Cut: A reverse cut axle is stronger in the front when going forward because it is driving on the drive side of the gears. However, going in reverse they are weaker. Most stress is put on the front end when going in reverse because of weight transfer. Some use this as an argument to go with standard cut, I prefer reverse cut though.

The front ends of short wheelbase stuff generally doesn't need a reverse cut for pinion height because of how long the driveshaft is. It's normally done for a clearance thing.

Good luck,
CJ

Originally posted by CJ Lagos
Coachgeo,

Your getting a ton of mixed info here...

Ford 44/Reverse Cut: I would recommend finding one without the radius arms. ...........Good luck,
CJ

Thanks for the luck.... what HP diffs dont have the radius arm crap on them?

The leaf spring ford reverse cut 44's found in F-250's and the like would be simple to convert but will be on the wide side if you want something to match your stock rear 44, if you aren't worried about narrowing, this is the axle I would look for.

CJ Lagos...

ooopss.. u did say that didnt u

yeah I would narrow it. etc.

Thanks.

CJ Lagos to the rescue!

I figured he would chime in here and straighten out this reverse quandry.

Hey CJ Lagos, Do you still have your old REV 60's laying around?