OK..maybe I should actually get the truck 1st but these deals are kind of falling in my lap :)

Going to be able to pick up some YJ springs for cheap (next to nothing) so have been researching the YJ swap all day. May try to fab up my own with my buddy since I'm cheap that way :)

Now..I have some 31" BFG m/t's I was planning on using with my spoa but it seems that 33 is better size for the YJ swap?? Would 33x14.50 SSR's be too wide for the Sammi? Also am I just getting into gearing problems going to 33s? And finally any opinions on the SSR's? Been reading the thread on the general board and they seem to not be favorite since they're radials but..............

People don't dislike them just because they're radials. People dislike them because they have weak sidewalls and they have been known to separate on the highway. Everybody I know that has run an SSR has had one of these problems. If you want Swampers, get a TSL or TSL radial. If you see a lot of street miles and don't want something so aggressive, get some MT/Rs.

I used the tsl radials (33x12.50's) on mine with that same setup for quite a while.....They held up just fine!! The SSR's are actually a taller tire than the TSL's are...so for stock YJ's the tsl radial work out better. 8psi on a 8" 589 rim and they looked like they had about 3psi but never broke a bead!

here is what you have to look forward too!!

I've put somewhere around 10,000 miles on my 33x14.50 SSRs and haven't had one single problem. In fact, I STILL feel that these are the best all-purpose tires in the world. They grip like crazy off-road, they drive like an all-terrain tire on the pavement, and so far I haven't even been able to as much as pull a tire off the bead yet. They've seen pavement, snow, mud, California rocks (smooth and round), Arizona rocks (knife-edged) and I've proven their sidewalls to be essentially inpenetrable.

I usually run about 17 psi on the highway, 4 psi on the rocks, and 2 psi or less in the snow. 15x10 steel wheels, 2 inch backspacing, no beadlocks. Never pulled a tire off the bead. Never damaged a sidewall. Never had any single problem. And only now, after about 10,000 miles are they finally starting to show any sign of treadwear. It looks like they'll last about 60,000 miles.

The only real complaint I have is that they're HEAVY tires. Each tire is 74 pounds, which makes it just about exactly the same weight as a 35 inch Bogger. So much for the theory that they have thin sidewalls.

Here's a picture of my Samurai at Hollister, a good shot of the tires:

http://www.off-road.com/~beasley/hollister/Hollister48.jpg

If you want to read my product review article that I wrote about a year ago on these tires, click here: Super Swamper SSRs (http://www.off-road.com/suzuki/reviews/interco.htm)

I stand by everything I wrote back then. At this point, the only tire I would consider replacing these 33x14.50 SSRs with is a 35x14.50 SSR, or possibly the 36x14.50 Parnelli Jones Dirt Grip.

I always thought the SSR and TSL's had the same sidewall, anyone know for sure? As far as holding up in the AZ rocks, Mark slit two TSL's during our Rockfest, of course we ran 5 trails in under 48 hours.

How about gearing guys? Will I be able to drive this thing with 33s and stock gearing? Seems like earlier threads indicate no. I may just have to stick with the 31s I already have till I can do some gearing

Originally posted by Mitsuzu
How about gearing guys? Will I be able to drive this thing with 33s and stock gearing? Seems like earlier threads indicate no. I may just have to stick with the 31s I already have till I can do some gearing

The earlier post on weight is important for your gearing, as well as tire diameter. A good friend of mine, CSR on this list, is running lighter Wrangler MT/R's with a GRS II t-case + 5.13 gears. He says it spins his 1.3L up there pretty good on the street, but he's okay with that since the crawl ratio is good for him.

I do not have any experience personally with SSR's or any other 33" tire, but another buddy has run them since they first came out & he likes them. I know they have a thinner sidewall then the SX's, but they are thicker than most other radials.

For gearing, I might suggest a Sumo t-case + 4.62 R&P's? :grinpimp: Someone else out there could probably give more factual reference, tho.


If your BFG's are in good shape & you wanna sell them, let me know!:bounce2: :bounce:

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler
I always thought the SSR and TSL's had the same sidewall.Well, they can't. One's radial and one is bias ply. In the same thickness, the bias ply will always be stronger...

It's like wood: radials have all different layers grain (the belts/plies) running in the same direction. Bias ply belts are perpindicualr to each other - like plywood, where one ply's grain is running across the grain of the last one. For the same thickness, the bias ply design will always be stronger.

Besides, flat spot are fun. :D

Originally posted by Yota-San
Well, they can't. One's radial and one is bias ply. In the same thickness, the bias ply will always be stronger...

It's like wood: radials have all different layers grain (the belts/plies) running in the same direction. Bias ply belts are perpindicualr to each other - like plywood, where one ply's grain is running across the grain of the last one. For the same thickness, the bias ply design will always be stronger.

Besides, flat spot are fun. :D

TSL radial Vs SSR. Most of the people I have seen run the TSL radial.

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler
TSL Radial and SSROh. My mistake. I think you can se wher I got that...

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler
I always thought the SSR and TSL's had the same sidewall...

You know, nobody asked the guy what he wants to do with his rig. :rolleyes:

Mitsuzu, you're in Texas - what are you gonna do with your rig? Grocery-getter? Poser? Mud-ridn'? Rock crawling? There are Defenite trends to what kind/type of tires people are buying, but knowing what your tendencies are will get you more informed advice. ;)

I think that something that often gets overlooked when people are talking about weak sidewalls, is the light weight of the zuk.

It is very different having a 2000-3000 pound vehicle applying force to an aired down tire on a sharp rock, compared to a rig weighing 4000-6000 pounds. Thats probably why everyone running SSR's on heavy rigs are having problems, while only several people with zuks are having problems.

Originally posted by Zookymatt
I think that something that often gets overlooked when people are talking about weak sidewalls, is the light weight of the zuk.


You're very right. I forgot I was on the Zuki board. SSRs are VERY BAD for Cruisers. I have seen several (all of them) Cruisers eat up SSRs like they were generic all-terrains. On light Suzukis, they might be just fine. We're talking over 2000lbs of difference, probably closer to 3000lbs. The idea behind the SSR is a good one, just poor execution for the heavier rigs.

The two TSL's that were slit last weekend were on a Zuk, so weak sidewalls are still a concern if your into rockcrawling. Actually the last time I was on Armageddon I took a huge chunk out of an SX, I though for sure it had gone thru :eek:

Matt....good point re the weight. I actually thought I remembered reading on this board a while ago (I've been lurking for a bit in anticipation of getting the sammi) that radials worked better for the Suzuki's because they were so light. I could be wrong on that though.

oilburner..nother good question I should have answered up front...since I ask the same when people ask me about tires. Yep I'm in Texas..just means we drive to our wheeling :) Mostly rockcrawling, Moab, Clayton Ok which is hillclimbs with lots of rock in the dirt, Gilmer Tx which is similar and a local riverbed which is sand with lots of slickrock-type granite. So mostly rockcrawling.

I like my TSL SSR's wayyyy better than the Boggers I had......

Originally posted by Mitsuzu

Yep I'm in Texas..just means we drive to our wheeling :) Mostly rockcrawling, Moab, Clayton Ok which is hillclimbs with lots of rock in the dirt, Gilmer Tx which is similar and a local riverbed which is sand with lots of slickrock-type granite. So mostly rockcrawling.

Well whatever you get, it had better have a Tough sidewall & carry a spare:)

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler
The two TSL's that were slit last weekend were on a Zuk, so weak sidewalls are still a concern if your into rockcrawling.

The TSL radial has a pretty weak sidewall, but they flex great. That's a trade off. As for my problems, I just had a thing last weekend with tires. It started with blowing a trailer tire on road debris in New Mexico. Then I cut the TSL Saturday on a tree limb sticking out at the edge of a bypass. Then Sunday I rubbed an outcropping of shale which rolled out of it's hiding place and took a LARGE chunk out of my TSL radial on the way out of a trail. I don't know if it's the tires fault, I was just a magnet for that stuff last weekend....

Note, there was no amount of plugs that would have helped the second one.... Good thing I carry a spare ;) ...

So if we were following FeCamel's and Zookymatt's logic, the above post would be proof that the SXs have weak sidewalls and everybody has had problems with them and that they're basically crap so nobody should run them.

However, all that picture proves is that ANY tire can be shredded. Even the SXs, which have arguably the toughest sidewalls you can get.

The SSRs' sidewalls are not as tough as the SXs. They're not as tough as the other bias-ply Swampers either. But they are about the toughest radial tires you can get. About the only other radials that can compare to the SSRs in terms of sidewall strength are the regular Swamper Radial and the Goodyear MT/R.

Originally posted by zukiman
So if we were following FeCamel's and Zookymatt's logic, the above post would be proof that the SXs have weak sidewalls and everybody has had problems with them and that they're basically crap so nobody should run them.

However, all that picture proves is that ANY tire can be shredded. Even the SXs, which have arguably the toughest sidewalls you can get.

The SSRs' sidewalls are not as tough as the SXs. They're not as tough as the other bias-ply Swampers either. But they are about the toughest radial tires you can get. About the only other radials that can compare to the SSRs in terms of sidewall strength are the regular Swamper Radial and the Goodyear MT/R.

The tires above are TSL radials, shown after being manhandled by some of Arizona's toughest trails. When I had SX's they survived all those trails with only some sidewall chunking. I am curious what trails you ran to state:

I've proven their sidewalls to be essentially inpenetrable. (refering to the SSR's)

Maybe I'll go back and read your review of the SSR's. I just don't see how SSR sidewalls can be imprenetrable. They look far thinner than the SX sidewalls when I compare the various sidewall tear pictures that have been posted on this site. Of course if your not going to run trails like we do their sidewalls may be more than adequate. I'll have to post a picture of the missing chunk of rubber from one of my Claws :eek: Last weekend was quite the endurance test on our rigs.

Originally posted by zukiman
So if we were following FeCamel's and Zookymatt's logic, the above post would be proof that the SXs have weak sidewalls and everybody has had problems with them and that they're basically crap so nobody should run them.



Zukiman, I said that tires are less prone to damage on a lighter weight vehicle. Irrespective of the vehicle, any tire can potentially be cut, it just depends on the vehicle weight, driving style, terrain type (sharp rocks, tree stumps etc), in saying this, I completely agree that pretty much any tire can be cut on a zuk

BUT

they are less likely to be cut compared to if they were on a much heavier rig.

Originally posted by zukiman
So if we were following FeCamel's and Zookymatt's logic, the above post would be proof that the SXs have weak sidewalls and everybody has had problems with them and that they're basically crap so nobody should run them.


First of all, they would have to be SXs, not TSL radials.

Secondly, one instance, or a handful, don't determine that. I have personally seen MANY SSRs fail. I have also heard of many many more failing through various other media (websites and the LCML). I have never personally seen an SX fail, nor have I heard of many failing. The post asked for opinions of the SSRs, and I gave mine according to my experiences with them. I also noted that my experiences were with vehicles that were 2-3000lbs heavier than a Zuk.

I'm glad your SSRs are working well for you. I wish everyone experienced the same results, but they haven't. You don't have to get too bent out of shape defending them. :D

Just to be contradictive I'l stick with my Thornbirds plenty of sidewall grip more than a Bogger, and more rubber to cut in my own configuration:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Rockrat
Just to be contradictive I'l stick with my Thornbirds plenty of sidewall grip more than a Bogger, and more rubber to cut in my own configuration:flipoff2:

LOL!! What a Buzz kill :) :)

The tires above are TSL radials, shown after being manhandled by some of Arizona's toughest trails. When I had SX's they survived all those trails with only some sidewall chunking. I am curious what trails you ran to state:

I don't mean to nitpick, but unless Interco is doing some strange sidewall-swapping between their tire types, those are SXs pictured above, not TSL Radials. The TSL Radials have different sidewall lugs and don't have the raised lettering. Here's a picture of the TSL Radial's sidewall, for comparison.

http://www.off-road.com/chevy/reviews/interco/sidewall.jpg

Nothing DOT-certified beats the SX for sidewall strength; its thickness and construction are second to none. But for radial tires, very few (if any) have thicker sidewalls than the SSRs. I should have used some calipers to measure their precise thickness before mounting them, but based on side-by-side comparisons of them and other 33-inch radials, the SSRs sidewalls are substantially thicker.

If you compare the SSRs sidewall to that of a bias ply tire, then yes, the SSR will be the loser. But compare the SSRs sidewall to that of any other radial, and the SSR will be the winner. And remember, radial construction has a lot of benefits over bias construction. It flexes better, rides smoother, makes less noise, and lasts longer. I know there are plenty of people who use bias ply off-road tires on their daily driver, but realistically they are not suitable for much road use. The beauty of the SSRs is that you get all the performance of a Swamper (with a few advantages and a few disadvantages) but you can use the tire on the street with all the performance and comfort of a radial all-terrain.

If someone doesn't want to use SSRs, then don't. But they shouldn't put them down based on anecdotal evidence. Install 'em, beat on 'em, THEN come back and argue. I've had mine for about 1.5 years, since they first came out, one of the first sets of 33x14.50's. And I've beat on them in every terrain possible. Heck, I drove to Arizona for the explicit purpose of TRYING to puncture the sidewalls with the knife-edged rocks; after all, I was reviewing them for Interco, so I wasn't at a loss if I did shred 'em. They survived, so I'm convinced of their toughness.

Don't trust me? Ask Dave King. He runs AZ trails day in and day out with 33x12.50 SSRs. He managed to pop his 33x14 Boggers there in less time than he's been using SSRs. And comparing the two in on- and off-road performance, he's told me the SSRs are head-and-shoulders better than the Boggers. Of course, in AZ you don't have much in the way of mud, but even then the SSRs are second only to the Boggers according to a recent tire test by (I think) Petersen's 4-Wheel & Off-Road magazine.

scissors cut paper,
paper covers rock,
rocks cut tires.....



cuz they are made of rubber.....

either get cheap tires, or a good warrantee.

One other interesting difference between the TSL Radials and (I think) all the other Swampers is that the TSL (Three Stage Lug) pattern is different.

Every other Swamper (including the SX, SSR, TSL Bias, and Bogger) has shoulder lugs that go small-medium-small-big-small-medium-small-big in that pattern.

The TSL Radial goes small-medium-big-medium-small-medium-big-medium-small in that pattern.

Originally posted by zukiman
One other interesting difference between the TSL Radials and (I think) all the other Swampers is that the TSL (Three Stage Lug) pattern is different.

Every other Swamper (including the SX, SSR, TSL Bias, and Bogger) has shoulder lugs that go small-medium-small-big-small-medium-small-big in that pattern.

The TSL Radial goes small-medium-big-medium-small-medium-big-medium-small in that pattern.

My Boggers had...."small-medium-oops, rock ate a lug-small-big-small-oops anothe lug ate by a rock-medium......and so on....LOL

Originally posted by zukiman


I don't mean to nitpick, but unless Interco is doing some strange sidewall-swapping between their tire types, those are SXs pictured above, not TSL Radials. The TSL Radials have different sidewall lugs and don't have the raised lettering. Here's a picture of the TSL Radial's sidewall, for comparison.

http://www.off-road.com/chevy/reviews/interco/sidewall.jpg


Nothing DOT-certified beats the SX for sidewall strength; its thickness and construction are second to none. But for radial tires, very few (if any) have thicker sidewalls than the SSRs. I should have used some calipers to measure their precise thickness before mounting them, but based on side-by-side comparisons of them and other 33-inch radials, the SSRs sidewalls are substantially thicker.

If someone doesn't want to use SSRs, then don't. But they shouldn't put them down based on anecdotal evidence. Install 'em, beat on 'em, THEN come back and argue. I've had mine for about 1.5 years, since they first came out, one of the first sets of 33x14.50's. And I've beat on them in every terrain possible. Heck, I drove to Arizona for the explicit purpose of TRYING to puncture the sidewalls with the knife-edged rocks; after all, I was reviewing them for Interco, so I wasn't at a loss if I did shred 'em. They survived, so I'm convinced of their toughness.

Don't trust me? Ask Dave King. He runs AZ trails day in and day out with 33x12.50 SSRs. He managed to pop his 33x14 Boggers there in less time than he's been using SSRs. And comparing the two in on- and off-road performance, he's told me the SSRs are head-and-shoulders better than the Boggers. Of course, in AZ you don't have much in the way of mud, but even then the SSRs are second only to the Boggers according to a recent tire test by (I think) Petersen's 4-Wheel & Off-Road magazine.

Trust me, those are TSL's like okcrawler said (he owns em). Looks like they changed since then. The older, narrower ones had a nearly solid tread block up the middle, nothing a little groovin can't cure. I remember Dave popped his Bogger on the way back from the Rubicon, I hear California has some hardcore pavement :eek: So what trails did you test those tires on again (Az Trails)? I remember inviting you on a couple runs when you were down here but your Zuk was always being worked on. I have been trying to get Dave to go wheeling, but he's down until he gets his D44's installed, something about a 100+:1 crawl ratio and stock axles not mixing well :D

I really don't trust the published articles, anyone remember this gem? (http://www.off-road.com/ford/tech/pressure.html) Here's a quote:

Radials are the only way to go for serious off-road use. I have never - REPEAT NEVER - seen a really good non-radial tire for off-road work.

Good thing I don't believe everything I read. The Perterson review was also a joke IMO, how can you rate how good a tire is with only a couple hours of usage? Maybe you can determine mud performance this way, but there are two many types of rock to make a blanket statement about a tires performance based on one hillclimb :rolleyes: The only tires I see run day in and day out on the hardcore trails lately is either SX, Bogger, Claw or TSL (in that order). Check the pics from last weekend for proof. No one runs the tires everyone seems to run in competitions (MTR) or even SSR's on the hardcore trails. I suspect there is a reason and believe the many pictures of tire carnage on this board may be part of the reason. Not to pick on you Geoff, but I think anyone who claims "X tire has essentially inpenetrable sidewalls" had better be ready to back that statement up on this board.

Originally posted by Zukiman
In AZ you don't have much in the way of mud, but even then the SSRs are second only to the Boggers according to a recent tire test by (I think) Petersen's 4-Wheel & Off-Road magazine. Whoah there, buddy. I've stayed out of this discussion so far because I have very little experience on rock... and anything I said about the SSRs on rock would be hearsay.

But now you've gone and drug MUD into it... and I've gotta say something. Mud is what we do in Memphis. (It's also the reason Oilburner never wheels in Memphis :D.) Muddy hillclimbs, muddy river crossings. And guess what? The two best mud tires overall are 1) Bogger 2)Standard-edition TSL. Period. That review in Peterson's was a joke. MT/Rs as #2? Please! I had MT/Rs for two years and probably 50 trail rides, with dozens of mud holes on each trail. There is NO WAY an MT/R will out perform a TSL in mud. It just can't... it's a closer tread pattern and no sidewall lugs to climb out of ruts with. Overall, though, I did like my MT/Rs as a street and trail tire.

Also, I think the TSL radial was rated higher than the std. TSL. :rolleyes:

Just to give you an idea, here's a rundown of the tires I've personally run on many, many muddy trails: BFG-AT, BFG-MT, Goodyear MT/R, Buckshot Mudder, and TSL.

Buddies of mine have Boggers, SSRs, TSL Radials, Baja Claws, Baja Claw Radials, TSL SXs, ThornTurds, and Kumho Powerguard MTs. My personal preference has always been for the standard TSL. Better on some terrains than Boggers (especially sand) while sacrificing verylittle in the way of mud grip to the Bogger. The TSL and Bogger (usually the 38x11 pizza-cutter flavor) are ppretty much the only two tires you will see in professional mud races. That alone should tell you something.

The narrow & tall (36 or 38 x 12.50)TSL/SX is a little worse than the TSL in mud because the carcass has a more rounded profile, so the corners where the sidewall lugs are don't have quite as much 'bite' to them. Fat SXs seem to do pretty well, but the tread is also a lot more open than the skinny ones. Then come the TSL radials, which have a closer tread pattern than either the TSL or the SXs. And last comes the SSR - due probably to the tight read pattern and almost non-existent (compared to a TSL or bogger) side wall lugs.

Don't get me wrong. The SSR is last in a group of VERY good tires. It's still far better than the MT/R or BFG Radial Sand & All- Terrain T/A mud tires. Not that those tires are exactly dsrag slicks, either.

And just to answer a question which is probably coming, the Baja Claws are kinda weird. TSLs and Boggers let you crawl through amzingly gooey mud without much wheel speed - you'll be spinning them, but not very fast. Claws aren't like that at all... but drop the hammer and spin them, and they are very impressive. You just have to spin them to get them to do their thing.

well a local buddy of mine is selling a set of SSR that have been used slightly. i am glad that there is a good split on opinions of these tires. they are a 32x11 so i think i am going to run them on a 15x7 rim to keep a nice rounded sidewall. any thoughts on that?!?

yeah, wheres my set of 32x11s!!! I want em!!! you stink!

What about BFG all terrains I hear they have pretty good sidewalls for a raidal tyre

ohhh man ! this one went down hill fast!

Ill summerize my points....

1) intended use of vehicle

2) price paid for tires - GIVE me a set of damn ATs and ill get out the tire groover and fix em up...

3) tire weight - TSL BP are outright heavy ! my 33x12.50s on my TJ on 767 rims were over 120# each. I have a set of 32x10.50 TSL Radials for the zuke and they are ~70# on 767 rims. This may not be a problem. For me and my stocker 1.3l just somthing i need ot keep handle on.

4) driving style. Ive got 2 buds that drive completly opposite. 1 slow and controled on rocks and ends up winching on heavy mud cause he wont spin em up... Another loves the skinny peddle. Tends to bounce and hope on rocks and loves the mud....

5) gears...... swampers run more true to posted size. 33=33 not 33=32 this adds up when it comes to gearing.... on road ? are you happy cruzing in 4th gear in the slow lane?

Answer all of the above and you might be better off looking at a cheep axle swap vs. headache....

as usual ymmv

-yag

Originally posted by kestrel
What about BFG all terrains I hear they have pretty good sidewalls for a raidal tyre You're kidding, right? I could probably name several dozen people on PBB who have trashed a BFG. BFG's press releases say they have a good sidewall. Very few people on here who have really used them will say that.

I know of one who took out all 4 on one trail. :eek:

Also, if you're going to run a bias tire on a lighter rig, I'd strongly recommend grooving them. My 36" TSLs look fully-inflated at 9 PSI, whereas my MT/Rs looked practically flat.

After I cut the center tread, they flex much better at the same PSI, which helps keep the bead-blowing incidents down... and got rid of the annoying thumpa-thumpa-thumpa as you pull to a stop.

http://home.off-road.com/~mithrandir/grooving/groove02.jpg