Tryin' to bring a fellow teacher into this century as to welding use.

If you were teaching a welding class...
Some students are Youth Apprentice students...

How much O/A torch use would you teach?
Cutting only....
Welding....
Brazing.....
Everything including the non-mentioned skills.
Nothing, as no one uses these anymore.....

Also, what percentage and in what order would you teach the
Elec. based welding diciplines?????

I won't even share my opinion yet as I really want to hear yours.

If you don't make a living as a welder....
I don't want to hear your opinion as you are NOT a pro and I need input from the work force.
I am willing to hear from other teachers of welding.

Thanks, Cory

post 'attn. weldpro' he'll have the answers.

-Torch-

cutting
Proper heating and cooling

then once metal shaping is covered

--Welding--

-Stick Weld-
so they can actually see what's going on w/ the weld.

Then jump to Mig both gas and flux...regular on the table crap...then what other teachers lack is upside down as well as the differences in up hill and down hill welding.

Then Tig in general, then take it away ;)

Then let them play w/ the Plasma cutter...then take it away and say "you'll never afford that or a nice tig" :D

Then flash burn the hell out of the kids so they never forget to wear their masks :D

I dunno what else I'd do. I think the focus of the class would be around mig welding as it's so common (well at least for me...who knows what others do) Learn to cut and work the metal....spend most of the time learning how to glue it right..then show them toys they can't even have :D Sounds like a good class that build goals ;)

Well I still have my truck and current certs., but I don't weld everyday now as I work as a Engineer but I will offer my opinion based on the other 10+ years I worked in the trade full time. I would only go into any depth on OA cutting, with a short time spent on brazing and welding. 90% of the time I use OA is for cutting, mostly with a bevel fixture. SAFETY, SAFETY, SAFETY - not some of the crap you see on this board with guys welding in shorts and sandals, or using sunglasses as goggles when running a torch. I am a very strong believer in that strong SMAW skills are the most important to develop as most field applications are still SMAW intensive. SMAW also teaches important lessons in: arc manipulation, arc length, arc length/OCV/CCV manipulation. Also teaches you to "read" the puddle the best. These skills all transfer over to GTAW, GMAW, FCAW, and without them it is much harder to become a good welder in these processes. The breakdown for a trade class, not a hobby class I would think best is: 60% SMAW, 20% GMAW/FCAW, 10% GTAW, and 10% other if equipment is available - I.E. Sub-Arc, STT, Carbon Arc, Plasma, Etc.
FWIW my experience in all the time I have spent in the heavy industrial field is approx: 70% SMAW, 20% GTAW(Carbon/SS) and 10% GMAW- but this was mostly fabshop work where it was used for the root pass vs. 6010. My work experience is about 80% pressure piping, 15% structural, 5% other general fab. It all depends where you end up working what skills you will need, as someone who works in a pipe fabshot will work with rollers, perfect fit-up and lots of GMAW roots, while someone who works in the field will be doing the same welds in place, with a less than perfect fitup, uphand with 6010/7018. Most of the companies I have worked for would rather spend the time training someone who has good SMAW skills in other processes vs. one who cannot weld well with SMAW.
Sillyneck has suggested GMAW as the main focus - he welds for general fab purposes and I have almost always done code IX welding so you can see where our views differ.

yea good call...SMAW is really important as it does build on everything. I would like to recall my focus of GMAW and change it to stick :D I wish I learned it better....I started w/ a trigger puller and have only played w/ all the other toys but never learned them in depth.

Originally posted by Lord Baskerville

If you don't make a living as a welder....
I don't want to hear your opinion.

Thanks, Cory

I made a living OA welding muffler tube for a while. Does that count?

Most muffler shops still use OA (at least around here). It is all out of position welding. Gas cutting is a useful skill, especially for thick plate. OA welding is also a useful skill for leaning fill rod manipulation for GTAW.

Besides, all kids like to play with fire. :nuke:

Just another thought: Every job test I have taken for Pressure Piping requires you to pass a SMAW coupon even if you are testing for GTAW or GMAW/FCAW. As well you need to pass an ABSA section IX test in SMAW before you can test for any other procedure.

Sorry not an instructor but if I was a student in a welding class I would agree with jasonmt except I would rather spend the 20% on GTAW and 10% on OA. I took a couple semesters on SMAW at a CC and had an instructor whose welds looked like artwork (made it look so easy) his take on GMAW/FCAW was you could teach a monkey to weld in a day. In high school I lived across the street from the welding instructor, wish I had payed more attention in welding class back then, he helped me out with cutting the sleeve that the tines were attached to off a Troy Built tiller, didn't leave so much as a mark on the inner shaft that the sleeve was frozen solid to using an OA torch. Point being is OA may not be as popular but it is still a desired skill to have, that takes lots of practice to get clean cuts without gobs of slab hanging off the bottom and needing a hammer to separate the pieces :)

Originally posted by Lord Baskerville
Tryin' to bring a fellow teacher into this century as to welding use.

If you were teaching a welding class...
Some students are Youth Apprentice students...

How much O/A torch use would you teach?
Cutting only....
Welding....
Brazing.....
Everything including the non-mentioned skills.
Nothing, as no one uses these anymore.....

Also, what percentage and in what order would you teach the
Elec. based welding diciplines?????

I won't even share my opinion yet as I really want to hear yours.

If you don't make a living as a welder....
I don't want to hear your opinion as you are NOT a pro and I need input from the work force.
I am willing to hear from other teachers of welding.

Thanks, Cory

O/A-

Cutting-Yes

Welding- It comes in handy sometimes for what I call "farm" type repairs. It is also a good base for GTAW.

Brazing- Silver brazing is what I would focus on. I have done alot of silver brazing on steam, water, etc systems. Ranging from Monel, inconel, CUNI, CRES, CFE. Again, very usefull. ALot of people do not realize how much stuff is brazed and the strenght of it.... Capillary Attraction...

SMAW- Yup, that is the foundation of welding. Enough cannot be said about it. Learn stick PROPERLY and everything else will fall in place.

GTAW_ Definently

GMAW/ FCAW- As much as I can't stand either process, they do have their place... Just not for me!


How much of what you teach I feel depends on what area of the country you are in. Certain industries (semi-conductors, aerospace, nuclear) are usually clumped together in the same areas. Not all the time, but most of the time. Each industry stresses certain process's... SO, depending what the majority industry is in your area, that is what I would focus on after a strong foundation is built with SMAW.

GTAW and SMA Welders usually earn the most with the trigger pullers(GMAW/FCAW) earning the least.

TIG and stick are art-forms to me. It is getting hard to find good welders now a day that a highly skilled in both. I feel I could realy add alot more, but I'm kinda brain dead right now, so I will go...

Just read my signiture...


:D

I agree with most of what has been said already. I do however believe that it's a good idea to start students out with OA welding. Sure they'll probably never do it again, but the basics that are learned about watching the puddle, rod manipulation, consistency of movement, etc aply directly to all other welding disciplines. That's how I first learned to weld and I think it has served me well.

I agree with both Jasonmt & Choke.

SMAW is key if you dont know it - well you dont know much!

OA- Very important to know what its all about & all the safety requirements behind it.

GMAW- If you dont own your own shop , and this is more or less all you know well you had better expect to be paid not much better than a burger flipper.

FCAW- starting to become a real threat to SMAW in feild structural apps & and even pipeline apps(using robotics). This process will be more increasingly important to teach in the future but not absolutely neccesary to the student today.

TIG= (more money) if you can weild the torch & know SMAW you are on your way to making very good $$$$ in this industry your skills are very much in demand!

PAC- some exposure to this is realevant due to its popularity but then again it is learned quickly.

Our local JC where I do lectures goes something like this- SMAW 50% GTAW 15% Oxy/Ace 20% FCAW 10% GMAW 5%

I'll come back , and see if I can add to this tomorrow I'm to damn tired to write anymore --------but I do have more trust me!
weldpro

not an instructor either...but took a weld 120 class at CC last semester.... i think the basis of my learing came from OA welding. its slow at first so you learn to manipulate the bead, then using filler rod gets you to using one hand on torch and one hand on filler rod. once all that sutff is covered moved on to SMAW, we stayed there for a good bit. starting out with the 6013's because they get goin easy then to 6011 and finally 7018...then went to FCAW/GMAW, of course this was the easiest but i think it would ahve been tougher if we had not spent some time in the OA shop. finally we went to GTAW, i wish we had more time at it as i got only about 2 hours of burn time on it. .... we never did get to use a plasma cutter, i really wish we had because from what i hear using one of those is like palying god.

Ditto Weldpro

My $.02
OA Welding-Teaches a kid how to weld with both hands starts the learning process to tig needs not only to learn how to weld but braze and SWEAT COPPER!!!!! not enough guys know how to do that correctly including me.

and plus he will show up some day at some guy's house that needs something welded and all they have is a torch and a coat hanger. :D

I would focus mainly on o/a cutting, do a little welding so they can understand the basic process of joining metal then spend a long time on stick. if you fully understand stick in all positions all the other welding processes are just settings. mig is simple when set up right, tig is just o/a welding with an electric current, ect. give them the basic understanding and let them learn whatever specialized welding they need in the future.
I made my living as a welder for 7 years is that long enough?

i am going to join in with the oa bunch, i had played around welding before i joined the navy. thought i knew some thing, i was wrong.
if you start them out with oa you they will learn the eye hand cordination that they need for everything else. that is what the navy schools started us at. just running beads, then ading filler. after a week of that stick welding was easy. by the time i got to tig, it was a piece of cake. i did it for 15 years and made a good living at it. but now i am older and lazer so i just piddle with it anymore. but here in texas, we are hurting for good stick welders. my buddie has a shop and i have seen one guy out of twenty that is a true stick welder. hell most of the guys that show up for a job don't know how to set up a machine. and if you ask them to set of a tig welder for aluminum they just run off. tig and stick is where the money is, mig welders are a dime a dozen. just my 2 cents mike

Great info guys...
Most of what has been said matches my views.
I'm pretty up on Automotive stuff, but welding is a skill I have that has VERY rusty industry ties.

Think I'll print this off and share it with my dept.

Just waiting for weldpro's next installment:)

Man, that guy KNOWS his stuff.

Cory

I'm a weld 194 student and I took it back in high school too. I started out with OA cutting, welding, and brazing. I still use OA cutting quite often, however I wish that the curriculum had spent more time going over this usage. There are lots of guys out there that blast a crappy looking cut through metal and think that they know their shit. Then you've got the people that can cut the nut off a bolt without damaging the threads. Spending a little bit of time on OA welding isn't a bad idea either. Granted, you aren't going to use it, but it teaches you all about manipulating your heat, weld puddle, filler rod, etc. that carries over to other processes.

After OA I learned SMAW and I agree with everyone else here. Learning this process is crucial to success in nearly every other process. I spent a good 70% of my time working in this area and it really prepared me for everything else. I moved on to GTAW afterwards and it came naturally after SMAW and OA. From there GMAW was mind numbingly simple.

I spend about 70% of my time on GMAW/FCAW just because that is what is what I own and most of the material that I work with is 3/8" or less in thickness. Just general fab work. Up at the shop I spent another 10% on SMAW, 10% on GTAW, 5% on OA, and 5% on plasma.

back in the day when i was learning to weld, it was the out-of-position i wasnt taught, at least not in depth. it wasnt until i went to work on an apprentice program that i learned.
i agree with what has been said, i would focus on arc welding as it is the basis for skill building. out-of-position is mandatory.
as for O/A i mostly heat and cut, but i think some good brazing skills are very helpfull.
plasma is so easy it just doesnt need more than a basic how-to of operating the machine,and i think the same for mig, but maybe a little more in depth.
the last comment is assuming the student has already completed training in the other more traditional processes.