full hydro steering

[zukfreak56]

i was wondering what kind of pumps everyone was using im not looking for a aftermarket expensive one im looking to keep this project cheap. i have searched and havent got much info. im running full width axles and 35's soon to be 37's what size cylinder should i use and i was wanting to see pics of everyones pump brackets and resevoirs if possible thanks for your help..

[RX-4X4]

All my buddies are running GM powerstering pumps. You may not want the full hydro. full hydro is not alway street friendly. But can be. You may want hydro assist.

[jeeppartz]

I had full hydro and went to hydro assist

The hydro is fine up to 25 or so then it is like driving an old f 150 with a wore out ps box and a torn rag joint .....

I ran a shimmed kick pump on the full and I have a PSC tc pump on the assist .

[zukfreak56]

im not too worried about the streetability of this because my zuk is trail only maybe sees a few dirt roads but no more than a couple miles at like 20-30 mph

[jeeppartz]

maybe sees a few dirt roads but no more than a couple miles at like 20-30 mph


Same as my rig basically

It sucked driving the acess trails at Uwharrie . The wandering wasnt fun . I had a nice orbital valve and it was great at low speeds , but on the way to the trailhead it wasnt safe . The second thing is with an assist setup if you blow a line you can cap off the ports and have steering . With full hydro you are getting a new line .

I was going back to Moab and with the distance you drive sometimes to the trailhead or back to town I knew I had to get something more solid feeling so I went assist . The backup for the steering was another deciding factor also.

I run 36 IROKs spooled in the rear and detroited in the front on Yotas and I can go lock to lock one handed with the assist setup . Not trying to tell you what to do , just showing you how I managed to spend my money twice to finally get a setup I liked .

Good luck with whichever setup you run .

[billj]

Pump out of an S-10, reservior from a Toy FJ (big), cylinder and orbital from Station. Street friendly to 45-50 MPH on 38.5 SXs with a 96" wheelbase.

[Azrckcrawler]

I have done at least 55mph with both my full hyrdo systems and never had wander. I'd suggest getting a valve matched for the ram you want to use and a big Saginaw "P" style pump if you can fit it. I have run the smaller TC style pumps but have gone thru a few of them in the past couple of years. Search gen4x4 for some of the threads that talk about what you need as far as hose sizes. Definately add a filter and a good sized reservoir (2-3 quart capacity). I suppose all you guys with steering boxes carry spare sector shafts and pitman arms right? I carry a spare high pressure hose, way easier to swap one of those out than a sector shaft.

[bogger61]

I have done at least 55mph with both my full hyrdo systems and never had wander. I'd suggest getting a valve matched for the ram you want to use and a big Saginaw "P" style pump if you can fit it. I have run the smaller TC style pumps but have gone thru a few of them in the past couple of years. Search gen4x4 for some of the threads that talk about what you need as far as hose sizes. Definately add a filter and a good sized reservoir (2-3 quart capacity). I suppose all you guys with steering boxes carry spare sector shafts and pitman arms right? I carry a spare high pressure hose, way easier to swap one of those out than a sector shaft.Thank you .Iam glad some told these people that have problems with there full hyd that it's caused by the wrong parts combo and not type of system

[jeeppartz]

I have done at least 55mph with both my full hyrdo systems and never had wander. I'd suggest getting a valve matched for the ram you want to use and a big Saginaw "P" style pump if you can fit it. I have run the smaller TC style pumps but have gone thru a few of them in the past couple of years. Search gen4x4 for some of the threads that talk about what you need as far as hose sizes. Definately add a filter and a good sized reservoir (2-3 quart capacity). I suppose all you guys with steering boxes carry spare sector shafts and pitman arms right? I carry a spare high pressure hose, way easier to swap one of those out than a sector shaft.


Your saying you dont have to correct for the steering ?

I had a full hydro setup that wasnt off a tractor . It was from a vendor on this board and it wasnt even close to the assist I have now . To each their own but there is no way I would go back to full hydro . As to spares , I can weld a sector shaft or a pitmann arm if need be ...so no I dont carry spares.

Thank you .I am glad some told these people that have problems with there full hyd that it's caused by the wrong parts combo and not type of system
Theres a reason why full hydro isnt legal , it is great offroad at lower speeds I suppose some can tolerate how it feels at speed .. I couldnt . I am speaking from personal experience are you ?

[Azrckcrawler]

Your saying you dont have to correct for the steering ?

I had a full hydro setup that wasnt off a tractor . It was from a vendor on this board and it wasnt even close to the assist I have now . To each their own but there is no way I would go back to full hydro . As to spares , I can weld a sector shaft or a pitmann arm if need be ...so no I dont carry spares.


Theres a reason why full hydro isnt legal , it is great offroad at lower speeds I suppose some can tolerate how it feels at speed .. I couldnt . I am speaking from personal experience are you ?


No, I do not have to correct for the steering. For all intensive purposes it steers just like my old steering box setup except I no longer break pitman arms, sector shafts, experience bump steer, etc. I would love to know what components you used in your full hydro system, line sizes and pics of how the ram was mounted. You definately had a problem. Keep in mind load reactive steering valves are not designed to run with a single ended ram and could be responsible for the experience you described.

I have done trail repairs on pitman arms with welding rod and a pair of batteries, never seen a broken sector shaft that could be repaired by welding. Most broke off near the seal so a spare shaft/box was the only way out.

Hydro steering article. (http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/index2.html)

[zukfreak56]

can anyone show me pictures of their setups i really need help with this.

[uglyzook]

i run a full hydro set up on my rig i have been up to 45-55 or so and it wanders a bit but its NOT unsafe
i use a 2001 jeep wrangler pum and some kind of after market resivor. i like how it drives it steers very very fast but its good 1 and 2/3 turns lock to lock

[zukfreak56]

what type of orbital are you using i got mine off a fork lift i will get the numbers if it matters

[Non Urban]

Who has Hydro Assist set ups? I'm personally tired of screwing with the toyota PS. The pumps themselves are dropping like flies.

[billj]

can anyone show me pictures of their setups i really need help with this.


:)

[billj]

another.......

[billj]

one more..........

No pic, but I positioned the orbital valve in the same location as the original steering box........

[Azrckcrawler]

can anyone show me pictures of their setups i really need help with this.

For what axles? Toys only need 4.5-5" of stroke, 44's and 60's can use up to 8" of stroke depending on how you mount the ram. Anyway, first, read the article I linked to in my previous post. Next, here's a link to my first write up back in 03. (http://www.azrockcrawler.com/_images/2003/4-03hydrosteering/4-03fullhydro.html) This covers a single ended ram which worked good but it did turn quicker one way than the other which took some getting used to. If you want stability at high speed aim for 3-4 turns lock to lock with your steering valve.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=206603&stc=1

Here's some pics from my last build up, same basic setup except I sprung for a double ended ram. I have just over 4 tuns lock to lock with the same valve I used in my first buildup. I run a -6 (3/8) line from my TC pump (bracket from Spidertrax) to the valve. -6 lines from the valve to the cylinder ports. On the low pressure side I ran -8 (1/2) from the valve to the cooler (Howe, bought it in the vendor section). The rule of thumb is to try to go up a line size between each component on the low pressure side and don't go over 24" in length on any hose (on the low pressure side).

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=206604&stc=1

On top of the cooler I ran -8 to the filter, from the filter I ran -10 (5/8) to the homade reservoir.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=206605&stc=1

I need to get a picture of the inside of this res, we put a baffle at the top that is basically a round plate 1" below the top with a 3/8" hole in the center (just like a stock Toyota external res). This helps keep the pump from sucking air on off camber stuff.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=206606&stc=1

The reservoir is vented to this small catch can on the opposite side of the engine compartment. I used 1/4" air line with a couple loops in it to prevent fluid from gushing out in the event of a roll. Lastly the res feed the pump via a short -10 line. Never use anything smaller than a -10 (5/8).

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=206607&stc=1

Cylinder is a double ended ram with 8" of stroke from POS. I am using 3/4 x 3/4 heims. Where I mounted my ram I ended up only needing 6.75" of stroke. I also ended up having to go back over the welds on the lower plate I welded to the knuckle after discovering cracks all along the welds. From the looks of it the material from the mig didn't mix with the material from the knuckle. I got some welding rod for disimiliar metals (typically high nickle content) and used a stick welder to lay down some new beads. I also added a small gusset along the backside of the lower plate.

[simonw]

Forklift orbital valve? Who would have thought to use one of those? :laughing: Have you talked to Ryan Miller yet? The guy that owns miller xtreme in Greenwood. He knows a lot about the Hydro setup. He was going to do mine. Call me if you need his number and I'll see if I can find it for you.

[zukfreak56]

this setup is going on a zuk with full width dana 44 front and i possibly would like to go to rear steer with a ford high pinion dana 44 so thats my axles..

[Azrckcrawler]

what type of orbital are you using i got mine off a fork lift i will get the numbers if it matters

Your going about it backwards and I predict you'll be that guy who posts up later that full hydro sucks. Pick a ram, fugure the stroke, then use the formulas in the first link to determine how much displacement the valve needs based on the desired number of turns lock to lock.

[zukfreak56]

Your going about it backwards and I predict you'll be that guy who posts up later that full hydro sucks. Pick a ram, fugure the stroke, then use the formulas in the first link to determine how much displacement the valve needs based on the desired number of turns lock to lock.

you dont have to worry about me saying its going to suck the only thing to make it suck is operator error so that shouldnt be a problem. so say i want like 3 turns lock to lock and im using a single ended ram with my forklift valve what should be the ideal size of ram and hoses thanks for your time.

[simonw]

Your going about it backwards and I predict you'll be that guy who posts up later that full hydro sucks. Pick a ram, fugure the stroke, then use the formulas in the first link to determine how much displacement the valve needs based on the desired number of turns lock to lock.

why do people make this so difficult? Chris, for your purpose, I'd just go down to the tractor supply and buy a $30 Hydro Ram... and make your hoses. Its going to have to be a trial and error deal. You don't plan on running it down the road anyhow. Try it... all you'll be out is 30 dollars for a ram and maybe 30 for hoses. I'd concentrate on the pump itself. If you decide you don't like it, you can always convert it to hydro assist or just straight PS. I can steer my Sammi with one finger the way I have it set up... but your rig is different.

[zukfreak56]

i guess thats what ill do i dont really care if it is streetable i just want to be able to turn the damn thing without feeling like i have played a whole football game after one trail anyways thank you everyone for your help and thanks chris for the pics of your zuk a lot of inspiration has came from your two rigs anyways ill update when i get everything together and tell everyone how much i love hydro steering.

[vintagespeed]

i was wondering what kind of pumps everyone was using im not looking for a aftermarket expensive one im looking to keep this project cheap. i have searched and havent got much info. im running full width axles and 35's soon to be 37's what size cylinder should i use and i was wanting to see pics of everyones pump brackets and resevoirs if possible thanks for your help..

I used a 4cyl Jeep XJ pump, has a perfect barb for the return line, no reservoir, it's a basic Saginaw pump 1200psi or so. Worked perfect turning my 38.5 x 14.5 Swampers. They're cheap too, I think I paid about $30 for it.

[kstatecruiser1]

When I did my full hydro on my cruiser, I grabbed an orbital from a corn detassler and ran a stock Saginaw pump with ATF fluid.

[zukfreak56]

looks kinda scary i think you would burn the shit out of your leg if you had a line blow on the orbital just a thought looks good though. how much was your double ended ram i think thats what i want but for price ill probably go to the local tractor supply and buy a single ended ram for $30-$40

[kstatecruiser1]

I picked up the ram for surpluscenter.com for around $100 or so. As for blowing a line, I wasn't worried about it. I used the ag. hose I could get and ps pumps don't put out near the pressure of high flow, high pressure tractor pumps.

Everyone gets scared around full hydro with hoses blowing and such. When I was farming, the only hose I saw blow was one that got caught in one of the joints in an implement and the joint crushed the hose. The hose didn't really blow, it just spewed fluid all over.

I'd throw the coin in for a double ended ram. I thinks it's a much easier setup in the end. As far as high speed driving, I didn't have any issues because I took the belt off the pump when I drove for long distances at speed. It is just like manual steering after that.

[kstatecruiser1]

Here's another one.

[zukfreak56]

could you possibly give me the part number for your cylinder

[kstatecruiser1]

Here's a link to a similar cylinder. It's even tapped on both ends and a little more expensive.

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005092107524506&item=9-6688&catname=hydraulic

[zukfreak56]

thank you for your time

[94SASMAZDER]

i run a saginaw chevy pump, chief cheap ram 2x8, a pep boys tranny coiler,and a charlyn orbital and it works awesome
if you need some pics i supposed i could pop a couple :shaking:

[zukfreak56]

pics would be great if you wouldnt mind.