When my motormounts broke on the trail a while back, the fan made contact with the radiator - holing the radiator and destroying the fan, in the middle of the desert in NW Nevada. We can save that story for another day.

Anyway, with my existing fan gone, I took the opportunity to convert to an electric fan - Flexalite 210, which fits nicely behind the radiator. The thought being that I would get better cooling on the trail, since the fan speed would not be limited by engine rpm.

Since then, I've had cooling problems that occur only at high rpm / load - like offroad in low range climbing a hill. Temps don't spike up, just climb slowly and steadily (like the cooling system just can't keep up)

So...I don't think that my current fan setup is pulling the cfm required to cool my hot 4.6.

Any thoughts on what cfm I should be pulling, and any direct experience on whether there is a good electric setup that I can go to? I'm about ready to pull the electric, but would really like to stay electric fan if I can make it work.

(It's done this with two radiators, so that's not the problem.)

Pugsly, I'm still working on the same problem. Hadn't considered that it's the electrics that is the issue, but you say your 4.6 didn't have problems doing slow rock climbs with the factory fan?

My 5.0 makes plenty of heat. Switching to electrics brought me into range for around-town driving. Now the only issue I have is that 100-degree desert shelf-road climb at 15 mph -- the gauge just climbs. The AC fans come on at 215 degrees (analogue gauge on top hose) and knock the temp back down unless the climb is really steep, then I have to flip on the cockpit heater and go real easy on the gas.

I've added a 21X7 oil cooler with mocal thermostat, and that helped A LOT. The heads used to diesel after shut-down before I installed it. Also have two 7" electrics on the oil cooler. Thinking of going to an all aluminum radiator before next summer.

Try the oil cooler -- it's the biggest improvement I've made in addition to a high-flow open radiator core. I mounted mine inside the steering guard -- plenty of room for it although some folks scoff! ;)

Doug W.

PS: Cooler and cooler fans from www.jegs.com. Mocal thermo sandwich plate from google search.

Doug W.

I have AFIRover's truck in the shop right now to try to chase down his cooling problem.

I mounted Flexa-lite 210s as well (not sure of the model) to his truck in July, along with a brand new radiator and we still have overtemp issues. This truck has overtemp issues at highway speeds and when off-road, indicated by an aneroid temp gauge to eliminate the never accurate stock gauge.

AFI's truck has a big cam and headers, but still runs way too hot with the electric fans. I can't comment though as my high-mileage Disco with the "Overdriven" alternative fan clutch also runs hot in spite of the higher drive clutch.

I can't believe that the stock fan moves more than the advertised 2500 CFM advertised for the Flexa-Lite. DougW is one of the very few I've heard of having good success with electric fans.

I have lost faith in electric fans for our applications. My Kenlowe is coming out and the stock viscous is going back into my Td5 Defender, together with a new, unmodified fan shroud.

It currently overheats slowly while towing a light trailer at 110kph if ambient temp is over 10 C.

Tons of happy users of the common and cheap Ford Taurus fan. Any Rover guys given it a shot?

Pugsly, I'm still working on the same problem. Hadn't considered that it's the electrics that is the issue, but you say your 4.6 didn't have problems doing slow rock climbs with the factory fan?

.
.
.

Try the oil cooler -- it's the biggest improvement I've made in addition to a high-flow open radiator core. I mounted mine inside the steering guard -- plenty of room for it although some folks scoff! ;)

Yeah, no problems noted before the switch.

I need to consider your oil cooler suggestion. But it should still be able to cool fine without it!

I have a Kenlowe in my truck, and with the motor conversion, rarely it gets hot. I was having issues before I put on a thermostat control, and havent had one since. I would think that the Flexlite fans should be more than enough to cool your truck. Maybe just try a new thermostat, as they get gummed up, and stick. Also make sure your hoses are in good condition.

Another option is to add a product called Water Wetter to your cooling system. It helps improve the thermal transfer from the engine to the coolant, and then from the coolant through the radiator.

(Edit) just another thought, but do you have the fans hooked up right? If the polarity is backwards, the fans will spin backwards and do absolutely nothing to help cool. Make sure it is positive to positive, Earth to good ground.

Tons of happy users of the common and cheap Ford Taurus fan. Any Rover guys given it a shot?

I might give it a go this weekend if I get the time, but I'm supposed to be setting up hydro on the truggy this weekend. so if not, I may do it next weekend.

I may to talk to my Circuits professor, and see if he doesn't have some insight into how to set them up in a failsafe manner. I don't plan to be one of those guys who carries around a pack of relays with them expecting it to blow every other trail ride.

I have a Kenlowe in my truck, and with the motor conversion, rarely it gets hot. I was having issues before I put on a thermostat control, and havent had one since. I would think that the Flexlite fans should be more than enough to cool your truck. Maybe just try a new thermostat, as they get gummed up, and stick. Also make sure your hoses are in good condition.

Another option is to add a product called Water Wetter to your cooling system. It helps improve the thermal transfer from the engine to the coolant, and then from the coolant through the radiator.

(Edit) just another thought, but do you have the fans hooked up right? If the polarity is backwards, the fans will spin backwards and do absolutely nothing to help cool. Make sure it is positive to positive, Earth to good ground.

I think I've tried all that. Boiled the thermostat in one of my wife's pots, using her nice digital kitchen thermometer - tstat opened just fine. I also tried the water wetter, flushed the system numerous times, and am sure the fans are running the right way.

Hi Flow Thermostat = Mr Gasket thermo, Part #4363. Opens twice as big as stock and opens fully at it's designed temp.

Doug W.

(Edit) just another thought, but do you have the fans hooked up right? If the polarity is backwards, the fans will spin backwards and do absolutely nothing to help cool. Make sure it is positive to positive, Earth to good ground.

The polarity is dependent upon whether one has the fans mounted in front of, or behind the radiator. The Flexa-Lites are able to be mounted in either configuration.

I'm not anywhere near sold on the electric fans. I believe my next step may be to go with a fixed fan setup, sans clutch. As my truck probably won't be street-driven much, and if it is, not far, I'm not too concerned over the further loss of fuel mileage.

PT

ford taurus fan, a few bucks at the p and p and draws better air than any aftermarket fan, but it has a huge turn on current spike.

I have a Volvo C70 electric Fan in my Mustang 5.0 and it hardly ever even gets up to temperture when on the highway or in traffic. In the winter it hardly gets warm enough for the heater.

I have gone through 3 other electric fans since I made the conversion. But the Volvo fan is definately the best. I try to stay above 2400 cfm's. Approx. 16-17" diameter fan is what I use in my Stang. For the Jeep I think the radiator is skinnier so the shroud from the Volvo might not fit but it could be modified I;m sure.

This is what I used
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=partdetail.asp&autofilter=1&function=search&404;http://store.summitracing.com/cgi-bin/index.php?search=%3Cscript%3Ealert%28%27%27%29%3B% 3C%2Fscript%3E&part=FLX%2D295&N=4294924500+4294839058+400226+4294838842&autoview=sku

Its 4600 cfm. Fits in a Series/Defender engine bay.

I have a similar, but much smaller unit specifically for the 10x20 oil cooler. Cooler has an in line thermostat.

This is a hot rodded 6.2 diesel. When I push it on steep climbs it still gets warm, but otherwise it runs very cool.

I need to fix the exhaust, still too restrictive, and get the dual snorkles hooked up. Cool air in + easier path for the hot air out = happy engine.

But I digress. :flipoff2:

I love the dual fans I got from Summit. Worth every penny (dollars really)

Pete

Its 4600 cfm. Fits in a Series/Defender engine bay.
I love the dual fans I got from Summit. Worth every penny (dollars really)

Pete
4600 cfm compared to the 2500 I'm getting now - that's quite a difference! So it will fit in a Defender bay with a petrol V8? Just asking since you said you are a diesel I think, which would not be as long an engine?

4600 cfm compared to the 2500 I'm getting now - that's quite a difference! So it will fit in a Defender bay with a petrol V8? Just asking since you said you are a diesel I think, which would not be as long an engine?

Think Hummvee engine. 700lbs. Bib, big block V-8. Bigger then anything Rover ever thought to jam under the hood.

I will measure the thing.
I did post up photos here. Let me find the thread.

Pete

<edit> http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=370864&highlight=series+cooling

I had to build a custom rad support to fit the radiator. Fans fit fine. The cooling fan is 27.5x17.5x4

I've got two toyota corona fans in mine.
When hooked up in parrallel (12v to each), they draw about 15amps and are loud enough to hear at idle over a diesel engine. In series (6V each) they much much quieter, one day I'll have a second heat switch to trip them from series to parrallel as the temps rise.

They fit side by side nicely on the rangie radiator and have their own sheet metal shrouds.

If you want fail-safe, you wire them up either to a dash board switch or do the mazda setup where they're normally on with the ignition and the heat switch turns them off when the engine is cool. Heatswitch dies and the fans stay on.
I'd still suggest keeping a spare relay in the toolbox though.

Well, I'll might as well chime in.
Ran two SAAB 900 (old style) fans side by side in my rangie for a few years. Worked OK in Sweden, but in hot and hilly Pyrenees I had overheating on long uphill climbs. Thought it was related to voltage drop in my wiring, so installed separate relays one for each fan, no change. With a marginal charging system it was even worse, the voltage drop made the engine temp gauge read low, so I did not see an enigne boil at one time. Heard it when I idled, though :shaking:
Even with a healthy 70A Volvo alt they did not cool enough when ambient was over 25C (about 80F?)
Handy when going in water, but since 2003 I use only viscous (the viscous coupling die and need periodic change) and no overheating since.
Also water is no problem only making a mess in the engine compartment in mud.
I once sank in a (partially) frozen swamp. Leaned to front left. The Range Rover decals on hood were under water,
Engine idled fine, with viscous fan, for over an hour before I was recovered.
Probably did not spin much because of the cold. The engine temp gauge did not register any heat, but the oil pan was submerged in ice water...

So the scare about viscous fans is in my view overrated, there is a much bigger risk in electrical fans.

PT can the fan blades take the speed in which you will spin them. I assume the viscous does not let the fan spin at the full engine revvs as you get it?

I did it once to my rangie and the noise from the fan was substantially louder with mechanically driven fan, so I assume it spins more then. I did not dare to revv too much for the short period I ran it like this.

Tobias

flexalite suck big time ,even the kit they make for chevy trucks ,took it out aand sent it back . they suck ,taurus all the way with no problems

flexalite suck big time ,even the kit they make for chevy trucks ,took it out aand sent it back . they suck ,

Don't you just love baseless opinions?
I mean great way to add content to the discussion :shaking:

I once sank in a (partially) frozen swamp. Leaned to front left. The Range Rover decals on hood were under water,

PT can the fan blades take the speed in which you will spin them. I assume the viscous does not let the fan spin at the full engine revvs as you get it?

Tobias

Gee, sounds like a coupla the drownings I had when you were with us :flipoff2: I'm still surprised my redneck ignition waterproofing kept the engine running that long!

As for the rigid fan, I'll use parts indicated for the same application as the fan clutch I'm using now. Hence, I would expect it to work as well, if not better. If the fans are acceptable for use on a 4.3 Chevy that will likely see higher revs than my trail rig, I'm not gonna sweat it. Also, I believe that in a past discussion, someone here was using the same rigid mounted fan I intend to experiment with.

I'd pull the damned Flexa-Lites offa AFI's truck, but the way I have them mounted, it'll be too much of a PITA to remove them just for an experiment and, as he's more of a CB than I, he won't wanna pay me for the experiment, even if it is successful (see, when he goes on vacation, I can fawk with him too :flipoff2: )

Lastly, what the hell did you do with my seal puller? I can't find it anywhere!

PT

I have the Flex-a-lite fan set-up. I have been running it for about 3-months now, with no problems at all when used in conjunction with the elec AC fans.

When I installed the fans, I also installed an analog water temp gauge.

Since the install, my AC fans died. Now, when the AC is on, and the truck is at idle, it will get a little warm over time (10-15 minutes). It never did this when the AC fans worked... But, I'm not 100% sure this is really the case. Even though my new gauge reads 220, the OEM gauge read "normal". The new gauge sender is mounted on the Pass side of the engine, in that hole next to the motor mount, thus the "line" runs just past the header. This could be an issue with an accurate reading???

As far as wiring, I ran right off the battery to a relay. From the relay, I went to a toggle switch and on/off light. So, the fans comes on with the ignition switch, unless I turn it off manually. I also mounted a second relay and toggle switch so I could kill one fan if ever needed (winter time, maybe??)

Around town, with no AC, truck sits at about 165-170. With the AC on, and no AC fans, I'm running 190....Although the OEM gauge reads "normal" the entire time (it does work!!).

This is on a D1, with a 4.6L, hotter cam, headers, no cats, OEM thermostat....

Anyone have some AC fans for sale?

PT I don't remember ever using the seal puller. I rmember you mentioning there was one, but I f-d with the chisel and stuff instead. i can be stubborn at times :flipoff2: Says the man who tried for half an hour to get the seal in the wrong hole!

Tobias

Anyone have some AC fans for sale?

Yes! Shoot me a PM and we can discuss.

Thought I would chime in...

It's been a while since I posted last. The past few months have been less than accomidating to RR and our family. Two deaths two days apart, one family break-up and one lost dog... I thought I was going to move to Nashville and start to write country music. Then I realized I would be throwing away all my amazing auto-mechanical skills! :flipoff2:

I ran the Flex-Lite 210's in my flat black RRC before I sold it. I was having some major over heating issues. Went through all the crap of thermo, radiator re-core, gauge, etc..and the big bitch still got hot. I stripped out the viscous unit made some brackets for the FL210's and the over-heating problems were gone.

Not only was I experiecing problems at idle on the trail but at driving on the highway as well. After the install I sat on the trail for hours without a single problem in 90+ degree weather here in FL, on the highway the problems were also gone. 55+ for 8 hours with no over heating. Hell yeah! [Hilary was getting really tired of having to stop!]

A cheap easy install if you ask me. Some fans, angle aluminum, a few relays and switches and your done. Hell you can even get fancy and install a Beck-Arntley temp switch to use them on auto mode.

I'm surprised you others have such bad things to say about them. I supposed it just goes to prove once more that all these shit box Rovers almost all react differently.

Good to be back, will try to post more.

I hope see everyone at MAR! I'll be the asshole in the 40' RV watching the big screen. :flipoff2:

Don't you just love baseless opinions?
I mean great way to add content to the discussion :shaking:
LOL

Flexalite actually makes a 3500cfm puller fan/shroud combination that might work - JCWhitney has it for something like $250 or so.
Anything that claimed to push 2500cfm didn't work on any of my trucks - that's probably the biggest fan sold at PepBoys.
PT - a Chevy 4.3 XD clutch doesn't cut it?

PT - a Chevy 4.3 XD clutch doesn't cut it?

I'm still getting hot at low speeds when off-road. Did you read my comments about the clutch on Dweb? (I believe you did).

I've replaced and/or confirmed correct operation of everything in the cooling system, but the aux fans still come on and the aneroid gauge shows it getting hot. When it gets really hot, the idle goes to Hell too. I do like knowing that the clutch will aloow freewheeling when I get into heavy water like when Tobias was with us.

LOL

Flexalite actually makes a 3500cfm puller fan/shroud combination that might work - JCWhitney has it for something like $250 or so.
Anything that claimed to push 2500cfm didn't work on any of my trucks - that's probably the biggest fan sold at PepBoys.


:D

The one I linked above, 4600cfm, works great. Think its 350 from Summit. But well worth the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$
















































































$
:flipoff2:

AlohaRover,

I checked that big puller out -- can't see how it'll go in the stock Defender bay without hacking the shroud to pieces. I did note the aluminum radiator kit -- now that's interesting.... www.flex-a-lite.com

DW

yeah, Paul, I think I've read nearly everything about the fan clutches :)
methinks you have something else going on if the tight clutch with the stock fan don't cut it. [knocking on the wood here], I drove the 96 D1 in pretty ugly conditions, like 120F outside going up a 5% highway grade in the 3rd gear, and the temp gauge needle hasn't budged a bit. That tells me that the stock cooling system, working properly, can haul out a lot of heat.
The 95 LWB tended to run progressively warmer under load - kinda scared me in the middle of Death Valley. Since the Chevy HD clutch went in, I haven't seen any troubles yet. Noisy, yes ...

I live in Phoenix, AZ. This has been about the worst summer in the last 30 years for overall heat.:mad3: I put in Flex-lite 210's in April and have not looked back! Best motor mod I have made......Dave

I tried the cb aproach but whent with the 210's and with toib's and PT"S help have not looked back

Glad to have you abck AFI. I take it the Mrs. made it through immigration.

While discussing the aftermarket clutch with a gentleman this afternoon, I found the part numbers for the fixed fan adapter and flexible fan. Perhaps tomorrow, perhaps.

Peace,
PT

Post count padder :flipoff2:

yea no worries easy uncle sam has no idea what the left foots doing
point in case
any way call me you sleepy bastard I got stuff for you
from japan

What is the model# or year of the Ford taurus fan?

all I got is grief in 2004 and bitching from Pendy saying my engine bay looked like shit. :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

It all works fine, still.

Thats great. Now go back your hole gimp.

Found out the hard way....Although I have an override switch on my fans, I forgot to kill them before entering deep water the other day. Fortunately, I had a fused positive lead, and the fuse snapped (25 amp). But, the water also forced the fan blades in behind the radiator supports running vertically on the back side of the radiator, causing the fans to bind and stop working....

Alllright, time for a lil more dirty hippie skunkwurx... I just picked these up today, I'll be messing with them next week. I would be this week, but I have a hippie chick visiting this week, so I'm a lil pre-occupied...:flipoff2:

http://www.cartertuned.com/t1.JPG

http://www.cartertuned.com/t2.JPG

http://www.cartertuned.com/t3.JPG

I'm excited, these are supposed to move some serious air, and I dont want run a mechanical fan anymore.

These are all 2 speeds, high/low, I just haven't decided how I want to set it up to run. I may try to go with an automatic on/off and a manual kill, any ideas?

Alllright, time for a lil more dirty hippie skunkwurx... I just picked these up today, I'll be messing with them next week. I would be this week, but I have a hippie chick visiting this week, so I'm a lil pre-occupied...:flipoff2:

http://www.cartertuned.com/t1.JPG

http://www.cartertuned.com/t2.JPG

http://www.cartertuned.com/t3.JPG

I'm excited, these are supposed to move some serious air, and I dont want run a mechanical fan anymore.

These are all 2 speeds, high/low, I just haven't decided how I want to set it up to run. I may try to go with an automatic on/off and a manual kill, any ideas?

I'll take one of those off your hands for a decent price.:D

I'll take one of those off your hands for a decent price.:D

We might be able to work something out.:D

Here is what I used.

One Taurus Fan from a 1995. Price my very by junkyard. Be sure to cut the wires and connector to make install easy. There should be three wires blue is the high,orange and black are the low, and black is ground.

One fan thermostat part number 226203 from Advance auto parts 19.74

Two Bosch relays 30 amp part # Bosch1pk 4.99 each

One lighted on,off,on rocker switch 14.99 part #58327-06bp

one 6ft aluminum L shapped stock 3.48
10 gauge wire.

Three in line fuses 1.77 each

This fan has two speeds high and low.

I wired the high speed relay like this #30 shunt gets the 12volts from the battery,#85 shunt is the ground,#86 shunt is the 12 volt power from the rocker switch,#87 shunt is the out put to the fan.
For the low speed I put the thermostat switch between the battery and shunt #30 on the relay. The rest is the same as above.
I put the two relays on there so I could switch between low with the temp, high manual over ride, and off for water crossings.
I cut the aluminum to make brackets top and bottom for the fan. Sheet metal screws where used to attach the brackets. The top brackets where screwed to the rad housing.
It is real close the threads on the pully for the old fan but is not touching.
I gave it a test run and so far it dose a good job of keeping the truck cool. I will give it a good testing this week as I drive to work. I will give some more feed back later.

Thought I'd chip in and share this with you guys:
http://www.juracid.co.uk/lr/index.php?do=articles/twin_fans_SLRC.html
This was designed to switch two fans but with dual-speed fans like those you can wire it slightly differently.

Any fan that costs more than £20 sucks. Capillary switches really suck. :flipoff2:

BTW reversing the polarity on OE fans works, but gives reduced power. Some aftermarket fans are designed to work fine both ways, but they cost more than £20 so they suck.

The fan is doing good at keeping the truck cool so far. This weekend will be the first time on the trail with the fan set up.

http://webpages.charter.net/shuphly/roverpix/EB91205%20004.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/shuphly/roverpix/EB91205%20001.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/shuphly/roverpix/EB91205%20002.jpg

FYI I went back to the engine fan set up, after I found that the big #295 Flexalite wouldn't fit. With the custom high airflow rad I installed a year ago and a new fan clutch, the stock fan and shroud is incredibly effective. My analog gauge shows the temp fall off 10 degrees, like a ROCK (within 15 seconds), as soon as I hear the clutch engage. I suspect, much to my chagrin, that my fan clutch was going out at the same time as I did the 5.0 install, and mistakenly I thought that my problem was insufficient airflow.

EOS.

DougW.

A few years ago I had a very old and knackered Rangie that overheated, even in Welsh summers!

The mech fan died, so I got two Peugeot 205 electric fans, and modified the shrouds to cover the whole radiator. This worked until we had a heat wave one day when I was in the hills and seizing the engine looked ever more certain.

I took drastic action and hacked two holes in the bonnet ( the 'hood' ) about 8 x 2 inches - above the exhaust manifolds - with a wood chisel I borrowed and a brick!
It worked wonderfully, the excess heat was allowed to escape and peace was restored.

Eventually I tidied the holes up and fitted some stainless steel mesh and never overheated again

Mudplugga

Look into Spal Fans (http://www.spal-usa.com/). They're hands-down the best quality electric fans out there and you'll find them on all of the WRC rally cars, most of the high-end desert racing trucks, etc.

I know this is mostly about electric fans (which I have) but when I started running synthetic oil my temp stopped going above point where the thermostat opened. Even at high altitude and low speeds where it used to get hot.

You guys really overcomplicate this! Just get the Dual Flex-a-lite 210 or 220 fans and be done with it. They fit all Range Rovers, Disco's and Defenders.

end of discussion.

Naaaw. Been there done that.

Doug W.

I´m surprised so many of you are not satisfied with the stock fan.
From an economical point of view ... ok. An electric fan that is switched on only when needed saves fuel.

But my RRC even with 110000miles behind and old radiator and standard cooling system never was inclined to overheat. Well, have to admit that you probably demand more of your rigs than I do, and climate is usually rather wet than hot over here.

Nevertheless - the stock fan consumes a few horsepower. This energy is transmitted in moving air, obviously. If you compare that power to the amps that electric fans use one might conclude that the standard/stock fan is superior. Electric fans are more efficient but less effective .. I think.

Could it be .. sometimes other defect cause the overheating and modifying the fans just masks that ? Like


(Another thing to look at (next to the electric fans turning the right direction) ist that the blade is fixed right side ´round. It makes a difference whether is pulls or pushed air, but depending on the blades it needs a close look to mount it correctly.)
(If the alternators power output is that low that the voltage drop affects even the temp gauge and the electric fans that much - why not try: http://www.rangerovers.net/rrupgrades/electrical/boschalternator.html )

Landybehr,
Agree on all accounts. I mainly did as I was reworking my cooling system due to some cooling issues. Primarily my rad was clogged up a bit and thus the A/C electrics would frequently kick on when rockcrawling at slow speed in high temps. So while I had everything out I had to upgrade as I have this disease where I constantly try to improve everything, even if it doesn't need it.:mad3: Plus the electrics added a little more space for those trail repairs that frequently come up, and they are really loud!!!