Shop Heater Needed

[Bob1]

OK-now that summers over I'm in need of some heat for the shop. Here are the specs:
20x30x10 cinder block design, 2x 8' wooden panel garage doors. No insulation and it has attic space with a 2x3 hole in the ceiling that can be closed off. It is a detatched garage and I plan on running natural gas out to power the heater. I'm located in NJ and temps can get as low as 0-10 with the wind chill. What would everyone suggest for a heater? I'd ideally like to mount the unit between the garage doors, it's about 2.5' wide. I'd like to keep a decent temperature to avoid constant start up in the dead of winter, something comfortable, maybe around 60* and able to bring it up to around 75* for long sessions. I've tried one of those propane jet heaters but even when vented I get terrible migranes, so I'd like to go natural gas and vent through the roof. Any suggestions on a good economical heater that will maintain a decent temp?

[darkstar]

I have the HD45. They run on propane or natural gas (mine runs on natural gas). I ran it all of last winter, and it had no trouble bringing the temp in my garage to anything that I wanted. Its nice to be able to work in a t-shirt when its 10 degrees outside.

http://www.propaneproducts.com/modine-hot-dawg.html

[deke]

corn burner

[Mr.N]

If you can't run gas...
http://www.iheats.com/PDF/catalog-CH-Trimline.pdf

[EMG7895]

These things are awesome, I heated an entire 3 story multifamily house with one of these when was below zero for a few weeks. You can pick up cheaper ones at home depot for about $100.
http://www.air-n-water.com/product/E46.html
http://www.air-n-water.com/product/E47.html
http://www.air-n-water.com/product/E44.html

[Bob1]

Thanks guys, keep the suggestions coming, I like the onw Darkstar posted-the Hot Dawg, compact and runs on natural gas. I'd like a permanantly mounted unit instead of a floor unit. Was thinking of something like the Hot Dawg or an overhead radiant heater in a long tube design. What works better, the radiant or forced air type?

[andyr354]

wood :)

Heat the dads shop, 40x50 with 20' ceiling non insulated, with a huge wood burner. Big enough to crawl inside to clean it!

On a note more to your size, you might just try some local furnace places and see if they have any used ones in the back. could pick up a used whole house furnace for cheap and it would easily heat your garage. Just put it in the corner.

[elliott]

Go with the radiant tube heat. The good thing about radiant tube heat is it works like the sun. It first heats the surfaces around you and then the air by conduction/convection.

So when you open the garage in the middle of winter not all the heat escapes because the surfaces are heated.

I hope I did not confuse you.

I am an HVAC engineer and that is what we put in all the warehouses we do.

This is what we use
http://www.rezspec.com/catalog-vr.html
They are pricey I think but it gives you an idea

Also look on ebay

[87YJ]

I'm in the same position as you. Looking at going with a Low intensity Radiant tube heater. I like the concept of heating the objects in the building.

Seems like Northern Tool may have a few and I've seen others. Still looking for the best combination of price and quality.

[AmigoTJ44]

waste oil heater
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me4.html

[fordnut]

first i would definatly invest in good insulation, i am probably going to go with a wood burning stove in my garage especialy with the way fuel prices are going, my friend has one in his 40 by 30 garage and it really cranks only need a t shirt.

[Bob1]

So, the radiant heater are better? For example, if I get a forced air heater when I go to grab a wrench it will be MUCH colder that if I grab one using the radiant heat? From what I'm getting, as said before, the radiant heat heats up surfaces along with room air while the forced air systems basically only heat the air.
I like the idea of keeping everything warm to the touch, especailly if I'm painting, would make the drying process better if the surface was warmer, not just the air. If the radian keeps it warmer when I open the door (no access door, only the garage doors to get in) then that will be better than just forced air that will escape the room when I open the door.
Am I getting this right? Sorry to sound stupid, just want to get it right the first time.

[fourwd1]

So, the radiant heater are better? For example, if I get a forced air heater when I go to grab a wrench it will be MUCH colder that if I grab one using the radiant heat? .

Only if the wrench is in "view" of and within range of the heater.
If it's in a drawer in the tool box, it'll still be cold.

I use one of the kerosene "jet" heaters in my garage. Will roast you. I wish I had gotten the propane version tho.

[Bob1]

I use one of the kerosene "jet" heaters in my garage. Will roast you. I wish I had gotten the propane version tho.

Yea-tried one of those, worked great buty they gave me severe headaches and watery eyes, probably gave me carbon monoxide poisoning. Had the garage vented real well too with both doors open about a foot at the bottom, this left a big gap at the top too.
That's why I want to go with a natural gas and vent the system.

[rocksteadyrobk]

I am running gas to my garage but probably going wood burner or pellet. Most likely Pellet, but wood is appealing since some of my customers carry Vermont Castings.

The portable propane units work great.

RK

[Gummi Bear]

I like the radiant tube heaters too. One of the nice things about them, is that the floor will be nice and toasty warm too.


They're getting more affordable, Northern Tool even has them in their latest catalog:

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&langId=-1&productId=200316369&R=200316369&issearch=172650

They do work really well, you'll never regret having one.

[Dave_Lucas]

Another vote for the Hot Dawg :cool2:

Purchased my Hot Dawg HD75 from the following place. The price was great and they had great customer service.

http://www.qcsupply.com/Products/9543.aspx

My friend has the HD60 and it keeps his 4 car garage nice and warm :)

Hopefully I will get to fire my Hot Dawg up in the next week or two (waiting on propane tank)

[Grim Reaper]

waste oil heater
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me4.html

More waste oil burners
Babington Burner
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/oilburners.html


I would also start by easing the load. You need to insulate. Get the cinderblocks water sealed inside. Then wall them with a studs insulation and sheet rock.

The thermal load that the cinder block is requiring to overcome is your biggest problem. You could drop your actual heat plants size requirement to about a 1/4 of that it needs to be to handle exposed cinderblock.

[Greatlakeoffroad]

Radiant Tube heaters they come in Propane or Natural gas. Most efficient BTU ratings you will find. Northern tool has a special on them right now til end of the month this is what I am using. It actually heats the objects in the room not the air so you do not have to worry about condensation on your machinery creating rust. If you open your bay doors now and again your really not hurting anything as the air is not warm anyhow. These are the most expensive type heater you will find but you either pay it up front for the heater or pay it down the road every month.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/NTESearch?storeId=6970&N=0&Ntk=All&Ntt=radiant%20tube%20heater&Nty=1&D=radiant%20tube%20heater&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Dx=mode+matchallpartial

[Bob1]

OK-revisiting this one more time.

I've looked at both radiant type heaters and forced air.

http://www.mrheater.com/upload/item/MHT451.jpg

I would like to get the radiant heater like above but I'm running into a clearance problem. With the radiant tube type it must be a minimum of 6" from the ceiling, with the unit hieght being 12", that's 18" from the ceiling. My ceiling height is only 8', so that means the unit will be 6'6" from the floor, I'm 6'3" tall, so I'll only have a 3" clearance between me and the tube-that can't be good.



http://hot-dawg.modine.com/images/Newhotda.jpg
I guess I'm forced to go with the air forced unit like the Hot Dawg pictured above. It will fit between the garage doors and stick out a little more than the fridge that's there now.

Now the question is how do you do it? Fire it up the night before/morning of or use a thermostat and just let her run?
What size would be best (BTU's)? The garage is 20'x20' with an 8' ceiling height, no insulation at all, just bare cinder block and dry wall ceiling. I'll insulate and finish it out next year.

[jeepnmatt]

how often will the shop be heated?

what kind of power (electricity) do you have out there?

i have a used electric furnace in my barn (28x40 w/ 10' ceiling) and it heats great! its only on when i'm out there and uses 0 power or fuel when i'm not. maintenance is simple (change the filter) and it does not have a flue/vent. it is on a 100amp breaker, so you need that available.

this time of year i would think that just about any heating and cooling company might be able to come up with a used electric furnace.

also, electric furnaces are 100% efficient and right now electricity is less than the cost of fuel. in our area, you get a discount on your electric bill if you have an electric furnace.

[Bob1]

Hmm, electric furnace. I just figured that it would cost a bundle to use one of those, never really considered it. I only have 60 amps running out to the garage because it's detatched from the house. I think the house only has a 100 amp line, I'll have to check with the electric company to see what I have. Any way of telling by looking at the line into the house? I figured when I routed a gas line to the garage for the heat I'd upgrade the electrical line running to it at the same time, not sure if you can lay the two in the same ditch, probably not.

[Grim Reaper]

Now the question is how do you do it? Fire it up the night before/morning of or use a thermostat and just let her run?
What size would be best (BTU's)? The garage is 20'x20' with an 8' ceiling height, no insulation at all, just bare cinder block and dry wall ceiling. I'll insulate and finish it out next year.

Buggy before the horse here.

Your going to need 2-3 times the BTU's to heat that place to a comfortable level without insulation.

So here is how this will pan out. You either buy the appropriate size for the room if it was insulated. Then get hosed on the utility bill for what ever utility it needs to run to run it because it can't Keep up with the load. Or buy one that can keep up with the load but still get burned because it still going to need more utilities to run it.

You will pay for the insulation in savings on the utilities and the size it will require in one winter if you are using this regularly.

Insulate right away its going to be cheaper.

[coolmudrunner]

We have the ceiling mounted hod dawg type and I works really well, but the floor stays cold. I have a buddy with a 50 by 100 barn and a 16 foot roof height, and he runs the tube type radiant heaters. They are nice. It was like 10 degrees out and we were working on my truck in short sleves and laying on the concrete floor, which was nice and warm. Both of the heaters, his and mine, are mounted to thermostats so the inside temp stays constant. We figure it would cost more to turn the heater on and off, having to heat a dead cold area, than having it at a constant temp.

[Bob1]

Grim-I hear ya with the insulation, I'm just gonna have to bite the bullet and pay out the nose for the bill this winter. The HD 45 will do a 2-2.5 car garage (36,000 btu output), but since I have no insulation I'll do the HD 60-it's rated for a 3-3.5 car garage (48,000 BTU output). Now that I look at it, the biggest is the HD 75 rated for commercial-light industry (60,000 BTU output) for only $20 more than the HD 60. The nice thing about the largest unit is that it's the same size as the HD 60.
Am I overdoing this? I'd use a programmable thermostat to make it a little more efficient than doing heavy start ups. Eventually I'll build a bigger garage, so it will come in handy down the road.

Cool-I'd like the radiant, just not enough headroom, I'd be singing my hair off!

[Bob1]

Here's the specs on the Hot Dawg ubits. Opinions on my previous thoughts?

http://www.propaneproducts.com/modine-hot-dawg.html

[darkstar]

I have the HD45 in my fully insulated 2 car garage. It will bring the temp well over 80 degrees when its 20 outside if I set the thermostat that high.

The folks who told you to insulate first were right on the money. Any of these units running in an uninsulated garage when its cold outside will run basically non-stop, and you will have gas bills that are $100 a month or more over what you normally pay. Insulate it first, and then get an HD 45 and set the thermostat to 50 at night and turn it to what you want when you actually will work in there. It will cost you less than to just run a bigger unit all the time fighting the uninsulated walls and ceiling. get an insulated garage door too, if you can afford it. it will make a big difference for heat retention.

[86turbodsl]

Unless your fuel source is FREE, do what everyone else says and insulate. You'll pay for the insulation the first year. Then every year after that is gravy. Then size your heater for the insulated building's heat loss, so your heat source doesn't run very inefficiently the rest of it's life. If you size your furnace for the uninsulated building, you pay more for the device, and it short cycles for the rest of it's life after you do insulate.

In order of highest comfort to lowest comfort:

Radiant floor heat
radiant ceiling heat
Forced air - any flavor.

In order of highest install cost to lowest cost:
Radiant floor heat
Radiant ceiling heat
Forced air

In order of lowest cost to operate to highest cost to operate:
Radiant floor heat
Radiant ceiling heat
Forced air

If you spend lots of time in your shop, like every night, you might want to look at spending more money on your heat source.

I'm in the shop every night, and I ponied up for in floor radiant. There's nothing like working on the floor with a warm back and standing on concrete that doesn't freeze you in the winter.

[u2slow]

You can spend $60 on an electric box heater. 16,000 BTU and 4800W (20A @ 240V).

IMO, that's pretty good value for short-term heat.

http://www.dimplex.com/images/products/large/DCH4831.jpg

[Bob1]

Well, the decision has been made and I'm going with the Hot Dawg HD 60 (60,000 btu). Ordered it today for $530 with free shipping. The plumber just left and I'll get his quote tomorrow to run the line from the house to the garage. He's planning on using stainless steel flex tubing from the meter to the far wall (about 25-30 feet) and then some yellow PVC type tubing to go in the trench I need to dig from the house to the garage (about 60 feet). Anything else I should do while I'm in there like run some tube to fish larger electrical or a water line? I'll have to check the code on how close those lines can run together.

[rocksteadyrobk]

Bob,

Where did you order from.

Thanks

RK

[Bob1]

Bob,

Where did you order from.

Thanks

RK

RK-ordered it from a place called Green House Mega Store, here's the link. Just visited it to find out that the price jumped to $625 from 530 that I paid, they still have free shipping though. When I called I talked to a guy named Jerry. He told me I was "in luck" and that they had one unit left. I asked if it was new and not refurbished or anything and he told me yes, brand new. He also said that since it was the last unit their prices will jump on the next batch ordered, so I guess he was telling the truth, because the web price was different the other day.
http://www6.mailordercentral.com/igcusastore/prodinfo.asp?number=HD60A-01

The next cheapest place was at QC Supply, it was for $568.75 with free shipping also. Seems like greenhouse places sell it much cheaper than the heating stores. I actually found a few places listing the unit for just under a grand!

[rocksteadyrobk]

thanks.. gonna order from QC..