Or so this guy says, and he breaks cable for a living. He works for a company that tests recovery equipment, so apparently he sits at a machine stretching cable, rope and nylon straps until they break. The catch is, it doesn't recoil "if you are winching correctly, using proper attachment points," so he says all the stories you hear are just cases where they didn't do things right.

Has anybody here ever snapped a cable? If so, can you get me an honest description of what condition the cable was in and how it was rigged - and what kind of recoil you experienced.


Here's an exerpt of what he says:
"I am in no way an expert here but I do work in a nylon and cable fabrication shop. We can pull test and certify our products up to 200,000 # (100 tons). We make and break nylon straps, cables, and associated hardware of various sizes and capacities
……
Before I get into breaking strengths, let me say this about cable recoil: If you are winching correctly, using proper attachment points and hardware, and your cable breaks, it will fall to the ground as if it were dead. I had an on-line survey of people who experienced cable recoil and found that each and every time this dangerous act happened, it was because of improperly attachment points (rigging) such as running the cable around something and hooking it to itself or attaching to a tow ball hitch etc... Very, very bad! In all cases, the cable flew back because it was not hooked to a proper attachment point. I have pulled to destruction, various construction and size cable along with pulling to destruction nylon straps, chains, and many other lifting and towing related hardware. Each and every time this "hardware" broke, it feel to the ground within 4'."

And here's his website: http://home.gci.net/~trey/cable.html

nobodys perfect so why take the chance

I have seen two cables brake. Well one cable and one hook. The hook on my M8000, the very old one that precided the 8274. It was a stright pull out of mud hole. I was pulling a 78 Bronco, and was chained to a tree. All was good, then the winch started running fast. No one saw or heard the cable, the hook, brake. instead of being hooked to the Bronco, 50 feet in front of me the cable was laying stright out 50 feet behind me. So this might not apply to the broken cable thing.

The second one happened when my dad and I were moving some trees with a dozer. We had a stack of pine trees about 10 feet tall. We wraped one cable around the pile then hooked a 1 inch cable to it. Dragging the pile across the field, the ends dug into the ground. The dozer kept going.:nuke: there goes the cable. All I can say is that it was loud, and left a dent in the back of the dozer. You could see right were the cable hit, left a nice swirl mark in the 1/4 steel. The cable broke about 10" from the stack, leaving 15-30 feet that went flying to the dozer. About the condition of the cable, I forget it's been about 12 years since that happened.

:eek: :eek: :eek: DAAAAMMMM!!!

Originally posted by emsoffroad
I have seen two cables brake. Well one cable and one hook. The hook on my M8000, the very old one that precided the 8274. It was a stright pull out of mud hole. I was pulling a 78 Bronco, and was chained to a tree. All was good, then the winch started running fast. No one saw or heard the cable, the hook, brake. instead of being hooked to the Bronco, 50 feet in front of me the cable was laying stright out 50 feet behind me. So this might not apply to the broken cable thing.

The second one happened when my dad and I were moving some trees with a dozer. We had a stack of pine trees about 10 feet tall. We wraped one cable around the pile then hooked a 1 inch cable to it. Dragging the pile across the field, the ends dug into the ground. The dozer kept going.:nuke: there goes the cable. All I can say is that it was loud, and left a dent in the back of the dozer. You could see right were the cable hit, left a nice swirl mark in the 1/4 steel. The cable broke about 10" from the stack, leaving 15-30 feet that went flying to the dozer. About the condition of the cable, I forget it's been about 12 years since that happened.

Saw one break in the sluice once, thing just flopped to the ground.

I will strongly disagree with that statement about cable having no recoil, as a matter of fact its pure horse shit it most certanly does! My grandfather owned a very large wrecker service and over the years I have seen all types of cable break that was properly rigged. Cable ranges from very small up to over 1" o.d. and always whipped when broke with the rigging (hooks etc still attached to the object ever letting go.:rasta:

While we (Our SCUBA rescue team) were towing out a 25 foot moble home out of the river, It was full of water. We were using a standard tow truck (not a big tow truck):rolleyes: but that wasn't up to us (at that time)

Well anyhow as the tow truck tried to pull the mobile home up a boat ramp. (the mobile home was on its wheels in neutral)
The tow truck was able to pull so far then the weight of the water was too much for it and the tow truck was getting pulled backwards. So they chained the tow truck to a fire truck and the firetruck to another fire truck to hold it.

The chains were big. VERY BIG.

The tow truck was now gettin Stretched but was able to pull the mobile home further out of the water. Then it happened.

With 2 cables hooked to the mobilehome from the tow truck. BOTH CABLES snapped at just about the same time.
BOOM

Both cables fell straight down (as you state would happen)
Neither cable had anything on them (blanket)
Yep it was scary.

The rest of the story is funny, So I will finish it for your amusement.

The mobile home then drifted back into the water and we (Me) had to scramble into my dive gear/harness. Then hit the water running. I was able to attach a rope that the fire department uses as a repelling line to the rear of the moble home.
and chalk the tires so it wouldn't drift any further in the river.

A decision was made to put me into the mobile home now 1/2 way in and 1/2 way out of the water but sill full of water. I would bust out a rear window and enter the mobile home. Swim to the front of the mobile home and springload center punch out the windshield.
(sounded fun to me) so I did it.
They lifted me up an into the mobile home as another tow truck was on its way. (this time a big one)

They attached dual cables from the big tow truck and I was ready to go. I swam using SCUBA mind you. To the front of the mobile home. went to the center of the front windshield and poped that sucka.

WWWOOOOSSHHHH was all I heard as the water rushed out the front windshield. By this time the new tow truck had begun pulling the full mobile home out of the water. So as I got launched out the windshield I had a mini water fall to fall into the water. :smokin: It was both neat and scary.

Would I do it again. Yep.
Well the new Big tow truck was able to pull the now leaking mobile home out of the water with little effort.
Guess I should have poped the front windshield a bit earilier huh?

Live and learn.

3/4" square cable snapped and sprung back and took the bark off another tree. nope they dont recoil....

Ummm... so, what I'm seeing is, if it's rigged properly, it doesn't recoil.

If it's cable with a breaking strength of 9800 pounds, and you're applying 9500 pounds to it (according to the industrial-rigging house), you're misusing it.

If it's not a dead-straight pull, it's rigged wrong.

If it's not perfectly flat-wrapped, it's rigged wrong.

If it's kinked, frayed, or otherwise damaged in the slightest, it's time to retire it.

If you're applying a moving load (ie, driving while winching) to it, you're misusing it.

Translation: if we weren't four-wheeling, the cable wouldn't recoil when it breaks. But since we're (by definition of what we do) misusing our cables, they're gonna recoil when they break.

FWIW, I've only ever seen cable break in use twice; once when it was (it looked to me) properly rigged, and once when it wasn't. Both times, it recoiled.

i'm gonna go out on a limb here, can most of the recoil simply be the inertia in the suspension of the vehicles??

I don't know about the falling to the ground thing. I have had a cable or 2 snap on me in the woods. One time was my own fault.... long staory and not proud of it.
The 2nd cable was a straight line pull, to a "D"ring to a tree saver. Did I mention it was a straight pull? I had about 50' to 60' feet of line out pulling my Cruiser out of a deep mud hole. When that cable snapped (which was brand new) it took out my windshield like it was aiming for it.
Ever since then, I carry a backpack with some heavy shit in it to put on me winch line. This way if it does happen again, it will at least weigh it down some.......I hope!!!!!

I am not professional, but I would think that just by applying some basic physics it would have to be said that the coil will in some way react and move. Sum of all F=ma Ill let some one work it out but I know it is somewhere in there...

I have had the oppurtunity to see more than one large diameter cable break(1 3/4). They were being used to either clear or rerail railcars after a derailment. Generally, most of the failures could be attributed to cables which had been damaged to some extent, but if you used the manufacturers specifications when inspecting cables, you would only use them once. Believe me I have had to perform more than one cable and sling inspection. On every occaion in which I witnessed a cable break, there was recoil to some extent. I have also seen 505 hooks flying past guys heads(appx 125# with shackle attached), And when you are talking about hardware of that size any recoil is scary. I have also seen cables break on the drawworks when making a lift on a car. They always end up in the operators lap.

Well I've seen them recoil many times. Once I was winching my Camero onto my car trailer and the new Flowmasters caught the back edge of the trailer and I kept winding (hand winch)--it got hard and I kind of stood off to the side and bang the cable flew past me! The scary part is my car trailer sits about 24" off the ground and my car was rolling backwards with no driver! And what about the tester stating that nylon straps don't recoil--they
always recoil! I've got them recoiling so fast that you don't see them on a regular video camera until you transfer them to a digital camera and watch it frame by frame. Don't know how fast it is but I know I filmed a guy that got knocked down in an instant by a 1000+ HP sand rail (just the roost hitting him) and we got 7 frames of him before he hit the ground. At regular speed you almost can't believe how fast he hit the ground. The roost was mainly hitting him below the knee and his legs got pulled out from under him! I think that counts as recoil too!

Jason :)

how bout for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction
pulling one way-->SNAP<---- back the other way. it makes sense that it would recoil. i mean if you take a rubber band and stretch it till it breaks it will recoil. if you take a peice of string and pull it till it snaps, it noticebly wont recoil. i guess its mixed expiriences. maybe its just the massive force applied to the cable/strap that is the deciding factor.
my .02:)

this may also have a lot to do with the lengths we have to use sometimes, the cable will stretch evenly along its entire length under load, if you are rigged into a pull only 5 or ten feet there may be no recoit to speak of, but at 125 feet there is a lot more energy stored up in that cable. it probably has a lot to do with how the cable fails too, if it goes gradually one strand at a time the energy would dissipate slower and may not snap, if it gives suddenly say from rubbing on something or previous damage it will probably fly.
I have seen cables do both on occasion, seems to me the best plan is to assume it will happen and hope it dosn't

These last two responses are pretty damn close on why the recoil. The recoil is not because the cable breaks (exactly), it's because the cable has stretched and then has the force pulling on it released in a very short lapse of time. It's the elasticity that causes the recoil. If the cable didn't stretch, it wouldn't recoil when it breaks. That's why if there's a short payout of line, it may not recoil a noticeable amount. Or if the force is released gradually over a longer time the cable is able to return to relaxed form nice and easy. However, like someone said, if you have like a hundred feet paid out, it's going to be able to stretch quite a bit. If anyone doesn't believe me that a steel cable can't stretch, let me take you sailing and let you try to keep the shrouds trimmed in heavy air.

This is also why the new ropes don't recoil. They're composite material doesn't stretch. Hi-tech composite ropes have been used in the sailing world for a number of years now for this very reason (especially for any racing). It's a lot easier to keep a sail in trim if all your halyards and sheets are made of lines that wont stretch. I'm kinda surprised it's taken this long for the offroad world to pick up on it. Maybe cost driven I guess, since for some of the more exotic stuff it's not uncommon to cough up like six or eight bucks a foot (or more, depending on size).

First, 92xj, I would be very suspicious of any / all that guy has told you, for one reason.

Why does he keep calling it cable? That's fine for us - most have done so for ages, not realizing it's not the right name. But this guy, he's supposed to be a pro in the industry...he should KNOW it is called wire rope...there is a "wire rope technical board" that sets the standards for industrial use, and publiches the "wire rope users manual". Not a big deal to us laypersons what the heck you call it, but nobody in the business I know calls it "cable" because then nobody is sure what you're talking about.

Also,

Scott has nailed it - we almost NEVER use our ropes, wire or otherwise properly. Worst example...to use it properly, according to industry standards, one applies a 5:1 or 20% design factor (sometimes called safety factor). this means, to use it properly, you take your 7x19 galvanized wire rope with its breaking strength of about 9,800 lbs and NEVER apply a load of more than 1960 lbs to it!

'Nuther very common example...when you use the little saddle clips to terminate the end of your wire rope...how many use the proper number with the proper length of turnback with the proper torque, applied the proper way? And then, how many know the reduction in strength this creates (as opposed to a properly swaged Flemmish eye) Answer - probably nobody. Witness - look at the pic of Lance's rig in the centerfold of 4wd&su (sorry to pic on you web dad - have to make use of your fame/status for safety's sake:flipoff2: ). You see 2 clips installed, each the opposite way round. WRONG - you never apply the saddle to the "dead" portion - so this is done wrong, and even if it was done right - the WLL (working load limit) od the wire rope is reduced to 80-%, so if that's 5/16" wire rope - it's now only good for 1568lbs, and that's ONLY if that clip is turned around properly. Think Fat Bastard ever applied more than 1568lbs to that wire rope??? 'Course he has, and being the almighty Fat bastard, he has wisely chosen to the safe thing and switch to synthetic rope instaed.

Nother example...take a look at the latest Peterson's article on recovery...you will see a big giant pro recovery truck with ...you guessed it, wire rope clips installed incorrectly.....it's everywhere!!

-----------
end lecture

For more info, check out:

Reading:
Federal Specification, Defense Printing Department, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania:
C MIL-S-24214, Shackles, Steel, General Purpose, and High Strength
C RR-C-271, Chains and Attachments, Welded and Weldless.

The Crosby General Catalog, The Crosby Group, Inc., Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Federal Specification, Defense Printing Department, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania:
• RR-W-410D, Wire Rope and Strand.

WRTB, Wire Rope Technical Board, Granbury, Texas:
• Wire Rope Sling Users Manual, 1990.
• Wire Rope Users Manual, 3rd Edition, 1993.

I just took this stuff last week in school. What was said above is correct. But the way we use our winches it is hard to use the cable(wire rope) properly. I wont go into much detail but I can say that after the first pull I did with my 8274-50 a couple of years ago I should have replaced the cable. The cable should be replaced if
-3 or more wires are broken in one rope lay.
-there are wire breaks near sockets or splices
-wires are worn 1/3 of their diameter(happens when dragging cable)
-any core protusion
-or heat damage or an arc strike.

They also say if a wire rope has a kink it must be replaced. My cable is in fairly good shape but does have a couple of kinks in it. So what my point is the most people are not going to run out and buy a new cable every other weekend so by rights are not rigging properly.

Also the guy that is testing probably isnt using long lengths of cable. I would imagine that when a cable that is spooled out 135' will have more force behind it then say a cable that has been spooled out 10'.

All I know is that when one of those snap I dont want to be standing next to it.

any truth to the pre stretch idea?
high line loggers are more afraid of new wire rope then old
something about it has to be loaded up evenly

MJ,

Sure is. Big Tree has it nailed - recoil is because of the stretch, and the new synthetic ropes stretch an awful lot less than wire rope.

From one of my refs:

8.7.2 Initial Cycle
After rope replacement and before returning the equipment to service, it is recommended that the
hoist unit be cycled from maximum down position to maximum up position eight to ten times with
10 percent to 20 percent of rated load.
8.7.3 New Rope Stretch
On equipment having multiple part lines (other than rotation-resistant wire rope) a new rope will
stretch and unlay slightly, causing turns to appear in the load block. The anchorage, if not fitted to a
swivel, may be disconnected, the turns removed and reconnected.

Originally posted by mytzlflick
this may also have a lot to do with the lengths we have to use sometimes, the cable will stretch evenly along its entire length under load, if you are rigged into a pull only 5 or ten feet there may be no recoit to speak of, but at 125 feet there is a lot more energy stored up in that cable.
this answer makes the most sense to me...

Lots of good answers here. Two questions - anybody know how much new wire rope stretches, inches per hundred feet? And, what do ya'll think of Rhino's idea that suspension rebound on the vehicles contributes to bad recoil on a broken cable? It makes sense to me. Note that on Bert's mobile home story, where the cable fell harmlessly to the ground, the tow truck was tied off behind and the mobile home was too waterlogged to have any rebound.

I think Scott and Bill and others have it right that we're never going to use our wire "correctly" - I know I don't. At the same time, I think it would be useful to understand exactly which part of our misuse leads to the deadly recoil. Maybe there are ways to minimize the problem.

Possible practical uses for this info - when you get new cable, stretch it under heavy load before you really put it to use. When winching very long pulls, its especially important to hang some weight on the wire. And when winching somebody else, tie down the back rather than chocking the wheels to cut down on suspension rebound.

(Hey Bert, you got a pic of that mobile home puking you out the windshield? LMAO, kind of like a modern day Jonah and the whale :D)

Oh, one other question. Based on the rubber-band-stretch theory of breaking cable, it seems like hanging a backpack on the line would only help with half the wire, the piece on the other side of the break would still recoil just as viciously, wouldn't it? Maybe you need to hang two weights, or one every 20 feet or something.

The only one I've ever seen broke and fell straight to the ground

I think the guy 92 xj may have been correct in what he sees on the job. The energy stored in the cable or rope will be converted into kinetic energy when the rope breaks. If we think of the cable as being a simple spring the potential energy stored in the spring will be proportional to the square of the increase in length PE=(1/2)*(k)*(x)^2. All this gets converted into KE = (1/2)*(mass)*(velocity)^2.

If this guy is working with ropes that can take 200,000# that is going to be a pretty heavy rope and the mass term in the kinetic energy will result in a lower recoil velocity. Also if the rope does not stretch very much there will not be much energy stored in the line.

The incident that made my step dad leave Seal Team 2 is as folows:

On mid sea resupply cables are stretched between the two boats tension is kept between them, slack is them taken up or let out by large hydo ramsbecause the boats floar closer or further away from each other. A brand new butter bar on the boat did not understand this and ordered the opperator to not let the rams adjust the slack, even after he explained the whole slack thing. the cable then snapped (Very large cable if you can imagine) slice two guys in half decapitated another and injured many more. Then my step dad hauled off and proceded to kick the shit outa the new officer


----
My guess is that all the stored energy in the cable has to go somewhere.

I'm not much for physics, I don't dispute it, I just don't understand it...but I *HAVE* seen wire rope snap and recoil viciously. In fact, the short section of wire rope sliced about 10" into the back of a Land Cruiser, like a hot knife through butter. Not a pretty sight, and it could have ended in serious injury or death. Since then, I've always been very wary of recovery operations and prefer to stand *well* clear of a winch's cable when said winch is in use.

We had a guy loose his leg last year at a local mud hole when a winch cable let go, I didn't see it so I can't say if it was hooked up properly or not (from what I heard the guys were shit faced), but it certainly recoiled, with almost deadly results.

As for tow straps, my buddy caved in his tailgate when a strap snapped when he was getting pulled out of a hole by a 6x6, and it was a slow flat pull. It snapped like an elastic band.

In a perfect labratory enviroment it might not recoil, but in the real world nothings constant.

Originally posted by DanCJ
I think the guy 92 xj may have been correct in what he sees on the job. The energy stored in the cable or rope will be converted into kinetic energy when the rope breaks. If we think of the cable as being a simple spring the potential energy stored in the spring will be proportional to the square of the increase in length PE=(1/2)*(k)*(x)^2. All this gets converted into KE = (1/2)*(mass)*(velocity)^2.

If this guy is working with ropes that can take 200,000# that is going to be a pretty heavy rope and the mass term in the kinetic energy will result in a lower recoil velocity. Also if the rope does not stretch very much there will not be much energy stored in the line.

Good idea, the spring formulas sound like the right physics approach to take, and it seems to me to support what the cable-testing guy is saying. Hey Dan, help me out applying the formulas - for starters, what's the "k" factor in the PE formula? The x factor is going to be very small - from observation, I don't think cable stretches more than 1% or 2% at most (6-12 inches with 50 feet run out) so the x^2 factor will be .0001 to .0004. (Unless you use 1.02^2, which = 1.04.)

Say I've got 50 feet of 5/16 wire rope that stretches 12 inches (2%) before it snaps under 9000 lb load. Say it breaks exactly in the middle, so you've got 25 feet of loose cable on each end, which would weigh about 4-5 pounds (I think). How much kinetic energy is released? And can you figure from that how fast the cable would be traveling?

Here's a rough, probably wrong way of applying the PE formula. Suppose the "k" term is the 9000 lb load on the cable. PE would be 1/2 * 9000 lbs *.0004 or 1.8 pounds - meaning the cable just flops to the ground. Unless I severely screwed up using the formula, which is very possible. Help me out, physics guys.


P.S. I'm not saying cable doesn't recoil, obviously it does. My question is *why* does it recoil, and the reason for asking why is to help keep it from happening. Even if everybody is out of the way, it can cause some wicked damage to my jeep. (And I don't think rope is a perfect solution, at least not yet.) Based on what I've heard so far, I'm thinking that recoil is not really caused by cable stretch, which is what I used to think caused it.

Originally posted by RHINO
i'm gonna go out on a limb here, can most of the recoil simply be the inertia in the suspension of the vehicles??

While we're doing physics problems, let's try this one. Say you have two lifted 4000-lb jeeps, one pulling the other out of a mud hole that's 1/2-way covering the tires on the stuck vehicle. 50 feet of cable out and stretched 12 inches, like above. Both suspensions leaning toward each other by (how much? 4 inches each?) due to the 9000 lb tension on the line. Then the cable snaps. Half the cable weighs 5 pounds, say.

My amateur calcs: 4000-lbs x 6-inch suspension rebound (recover the 4 inches forward lean and go 2 inches the other way) for each vehicle or 2000 foot-pounds of force on each half of the broken cable. Way more than the couple of pounds force released by the spring effect of the stretched cable.

Velocity of the parted cable: if KE= 1/2*m*v^2 then
v= (2*KE/m)^.5 or
v= (2*2000/5)^.5 or 28.2 feet/second.

That would hurt.

it recoils because it is a spring under tension
I have been lucky every break I have had launches up and over the truck
never seen one break in the middle, usually at the hook end for me
10 times is a lot of times to prestress
hard on an electric winch motor
why isnt it sold prestressed??

Any of you guys with actual experience wanna post the specifics of that experience in the thread: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36694

We're talking about rope breaks... and comparing real-world experience.

Randii

I have seen a few ropes break and some have recoiled and some have not. I see a number of posts talk about the physics of the reaction and I think that most are on the right track. Since a cable can only hold a load in tension along the axis of the cable when it breaks in a perfect world it can only travel along its axis. Therefore if the end moves up or down there must me some other force acting and that would probably mean the cable was loaded incorrectly. I think that the reason for recoil has to do with the stretch of the cable. For example if we take the situation where we are pulling a Jeep out of the mud with 8000 lbs of force and the steel rope stretches 12 inches then the total energy stored in the cable is 8000 x 12 in*lbs. It in the same situation the composite rope stretche 2 inches then the energy stored is 8000 x 2 in*lbs. As you can see the PE is much less with the composite so its kinetic energy will be less when it snaps. In both cases the rope will recoil it is just that the one that is moving slower will it the ground with a shorter distance traveled and the one moving faster will hit the ground after it travels a longer distance and most likely hits your rig. Hope this helps.

I broke my HS9500i's cable not too long after I bought it! It was my fault and I was using it improperly.
I bent my tierod on a wheeling trip(bent it outward). It was bent so bad I couldn't preceed so I pulled the winch cable out and looped it around the axle and tried pulling the tierod back towards the axle. Well the cable kept sliding on the axle so I moved it over between the sping perch and the axle. The cable got caught on somehtign and snapped. It didn't recoil, but then again, not much of it was out...

The k in the potential energy (PE) equation is the spring constant. This will be a constant that is a property of the spring (usually this is determined by the material the spring is made of and the design of the spring). The higher the spring constant the lower the amount of stretch needed to store up a given amount of energy. A good example would be to compare UHMWPE and a "snatch um" strap. The UHMWPE does not stretch very much but has a large amount of energy stored in it as a result it must have a high spring constant. A snatch um strap will stretch a lot before it has the same amount of energy stored in it so it has a low spring constant.

As far as your example goes with the two jeeps pulling each other out, the energy in the rope will be the dominant term in determining how fast your rope recoils. The velocity of a recoiling rope will be given by

v=x*sqrt(2*k/m)

the trick to using this will be to find out a spring constant for a wire rope. Also this assumes that the spring constant for a wire rope is constant through out the pull. This is obviously untrue b/c the rope breaks in the end, but it sould give a pretty good first order guess to the speed.

On a personal note, I am a newbie who has been lurking on this board for a about 8 months trying to learn as much as possible about working on my jeep. I am glad a topic finally came up that I know something about.:)

well my good friend who was a rigger and worked in the cable test section was killed during a cable test by the recoil severing his head from his body. i guess you could say it was rigged wrong. the cable was strecthed inside a testing cage, single pull, and had a gauge measuring the tension being applied. the gauge faced backwards and my friend was at the end of the pull test. he opened the cage door after the test to verify the reading on the gauge. a loud boom was heard and my friends head was removed. if cable under tension dont have recoil why are they tested in a metal safety cage. the wrong rigging was the gauge is supposed to face the outside of the safety cage..... i was not there but my friend is still dead. so just to humor us put a blanket on the winch line........