Crossover Steering for a '69 1200/Looking for Info

[Colin Rush]

I got my 1200 pickup running this summer (read about the entire project on the Binder Bulletin here: http://www.binderbulletin.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32149), and took it on the Oregon Backcountry Discovery Route in June. It ran great, but it has some problems with the alignment and the steering. I hate the bump steer, and it does not turn as far to the right as to the left. I know it is not due to any components being worn out, booty fabbed, or bent, as I replaced all of the wear items in the spring, and all parts are bone stock. Oh, and the front axle is from a '1975 200 truck.

After talking with a friend who is familiar with what I did, and who also drives a similar truck ('72 1210) that also does not turn all the way right, I am contemplating converting to a crossover steering setup, as he also is. I may also know one other guy who would contemplate it too, so I guess I am the guinea pig in this. I am told it will reduce the turning radius, and will eliminate bump steer, both of which are real plusses in my book.

I have been looking at the truck and what it would take to make it work. It appears pretty straightforward, except for one thing: How do I turn the steering box down and bolt it to the frame without having to build a mounting bracket? It currently sits on that cast-iron bracket. The box itself has four bolt holes, but only three are used to attach it to the frame. For the Chevy conversions I have read about, the box just bolts up, but the hole pattern on my frame looks different than the one on the box. I am told that the box is the same as on a Dodge, but I have not found any info on Dodge conversions. I did a search here, but found no info on anything but Scouts.

Also, will I be able to use the stock pitman arm, or should I replace it with something else?

If anyone has any information on this conversion or has done it, I would love to hear about it. Before anyone suggests that it ought to work because the Scout does, I already know about Scouts, and they are not the same.

[Diesel Smoke]

I got my 1200 pickup running this summer (read about the entire project on the Binder Bulletin here: http://www.binderbulletin.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32149), and took it on the Oregon Backcountry Discovery Route in June. It ran great, but it has some problems with the alignment and the steering. I hate the bump steer, and it does not turn as far to the right as to the left. I know it is not due to any components being worn out, booty fabbed, or bent, as I replaced all of the wear items in the spring, and all parts are bone stock. Oh, and the front axle is from a '1975 200 truck.

After talking with a friend who is familiar with what I did, and who also drives a similar truck ('72 1210) that also does not turn all the way right, I am contemplating converting to a crossover steering setup, as he also is. I may also know one other guy who would contemplate it too, so I guess I am the guinea pig in this. I am told it will reduce the turning radius, and will eliminate bump steer, both of which are real plusses in my book.

I have been looking at the truck and what it would take to make it work. It appears pretty straightforward, except for one thing: How do I turn the steering box down and bolt it to the frame without having to build a mounting bracket? It currently sits on that cast-iron bracket. The box itself has four bolt holes, but only three are used to attach it to the frame. For the Chevy conversions I have read about, the box just bolts up, but the hole pattern on my frame looks different than the one on the box. I am told that the box is the same as on a Dodge, but I have not found any info on Dodge conversions. I did a search here, but found no info on anything but Scouts.

Also, will I be able to use the stock pitman arm, or should I replace it with something else?

If anyone has any information on this conversion or has done it, I would love to hear about it. Before anyone suggests that it ought to work because the Scout does, I already know about Scouts, and they are not the same.

Colin,

I think this pic illustrates the majority of your problems. First would be the pitman arm and steering box setup and second would be the fact anything you run over the springs is going to end up eating the oil pan.
http://www.binderbulletin.org/photopost/data/503/6P1010008.JPG

[Ben W]

Are you set on keeping the stock steering box? May be easier to swap in a 2wd Chevy steering box (like the chevy guys do). It bolts to the outside of the frame so you just need to drill mounting holes, no bracket to build. That is assuming the IH frame is flat there, its been awhile since I've looked at my 1210.

[Ben W]

Looks like you don't have much room for crossover steering.

You could just tune what you have. A longer pitman arm will give you more throw for tighter turning, and with an adjustable draglink you can center the steering for equal right & left turns. The longer pitman will also help a little with bumpsteer. A spacer under the steering arm to get the draglink parallel to the ground will help a little more.

[Binder]

Looks like there's room for a scout oil pan and pump. That should give clearance for the drag link to cross over.
Shit can that steering box. You really want power steering anyway right? Just figure out what kind of power box will fit and make it work.......Don't change the length of the pitman arm too much, the length is matched to the geometry of the steering knuckles.

:EDIT: I'm talking out of my ass here. If you do cross over steering you may need to change the length of the pitman to match the new steering arm. :EDIT:

[Colin Rush]

I forgot to say, the oil pan on there now is a Scout II oil pan (came on the 392 that I got from Dan), which needs to be changed back to a truck pan, since the rear sump has kissed the front axle probably on OBDR. The photo Carl posted was taken before the engine was changed (old 345 turned out to be frozen), so it shows the old truck pan, which is not in there any more. If necessary, I can fab an oil pan to clear a tie rod.

I had thought about a longer drag link, but the bump steer is still there.

The stock box is not a requirement. I am really looking hard at swapping the knuckles and calipers and related to Ford outers, per a suggestion by Dan. Makes parts replacement easier, and I can get bigger brakes. Perhaps that would figure into how to go about doing the steering conversion?

I know it is tight, but it does not look that much tighter than any other trucks I have seen photos of.

[SSGTWC]

I forgot to say, the oil pan on there now is a Scout II oil pan (came on the 392 that I got from Dan), which needs to be changed back to a truck pan, since the rear sump has kissed the front axle probably on OBDR. The photo Carl posted was taken before the engine was changed (old 345 turned out to be frozen), so it shows the old truck pan, which is not in there any more. If necessary, I can fab an oil pan to clear a tie rod.

I had thought about a longer drag link, but the bump steer is still there.

The stock box is not a requirement. I am really looking hard at swapping the knuckles and calipers and related to Ford outers, per a suggestion by Dan. Makes parts replacement easier, and I can get bigger brakes. Perhaps that would figure into how to go about doing the steering conversion?

I know it is tight, but it does not look that much tighter than any other trucks I have seen photos of.

Colin,

When I had the stock (strong arm steering) box in my 69 1200D T-all, I had hellacious bump steer. When I did the 392 engine swap, I also converted over to power steering. I had to change the gear box bracket, and gear box out with one from the 73 T-all that the 392 came out of. End result was no more bump steer. This may work for you, and then it may not, but it did the trick for me. Changing brackets out was simple with no fabrication or modification required.

On a side note:
Changing outers on this axle seems to be the most feasible solution to the brake rotor issues I read that your having. In fact I have the same axle only I'm going with chevy 3/4 ton.

[IHC-6]

The steering box on Colin's rig is a power box just for the record. He didn't specify :D

This rig didn't appear to have any bump steer in the beginning, just serious wandering problems brought about by what I believe to be a worn out steering box. I have other steering boxes that you can try, Colin out of known drivers that didn't have any issues... :shaking:

[Ben W]

I had thought about a longer drag link, but the bump steer is still there.


You have bumpsteer because the draglink is not parallel to the spring. If you can make the draglink parallel, you will minimize the bumpsteer.

Crossover steering may fix your problems, if it is set up right. You can also fix your problems by setting up your push-pull steering correctly. Crossover is better if you have alot of suspension travel, with stock suspension push-pull should work fine.

[SSGTWC]

The steering box on Colin's rig is a power box just for the record. He didn't specify :D

This rig didn't appear to have any bump steer in the beginning, just serious wandering problems brought about by what I believe to be a worn out steering box. I have other steering boxes that you can try, Colin out of known drivers that didn't have any issues... :shaking:

AH....HA!!

ok, well..........crap I dunno :flipoff2:

[tsm1mt]

My '74 2wd 200 has a side-to-side steering box like a Scout, and would be ideal for a cross-over conversion.

I was strongly considering going cross-over on it when I sling the front axle under, but the leaf springs would be a big concern (clearance).. and I happened to acquire a stock 74 4x4 steering box in the meantime with the mounting bracket... so I'll be going from my stock cross-over idler arm A-arm setup to push-pull with the leafs and live axle.

Aside from the various clearance problems, I'm suggesting you might look at an IFS IH (not sure of the torsion bar setup is the same as the coils) and the steering box part of the conversion should be a snap.

[tyme_gypsy]

Hey if you look at the PS box on a Scout II and the PS box on a PU, you will see that it is the same box. The truck just uses a bracet to lay it on its side for the front to rear steering. Beg/borrow/steal/fabricate the same plate scout uses to mt. the box th the frame. That takes care of 1/2 your problem. The pitman arm will need to be changed and/or rotatated 90º as well.
The next part depends on your front axle model. there is a bolt-on top plate made for the newer Dodge Dana 60's that incorporates a steering arm in the top plate, to switch them to a crossover. If you have a 60 that can be probably made to work. IF you don't have a 60F, I have seen a bracket welded to the top of the tie rod, made out of thick wall channel with the sides of the "U" ground to the curve of the diameter of the tie rod (Example. 1.25" tie rod diameter notch is that wide and 1/2 that deep) with a hole drilled in the side (bottom of cannel) away from the tie rod to take a bolt for a Heim Joint. The further to the PAX side you can put it, the better. The drag link itslef was fabricated from a second tie rod with a heim join replacing the one tie rod end where it was hooked to the new bracket.
By using a tie rod and cutting & sleeving as needed, you can make it long enough that you can put in a drop to clear the pan.

[Colin Rush]

I went out and looked at the truck last night. The stock drag link comes up from the bottom of the ram horn on the knuckle. That gives it a downward angle except during full compression. That would explain why it always goes right when I hit a bump on the highway. If I was to change to another ram horn from a Chev (which comes in from the top IIRC) and use a Chev drag link, that will reduce the bump steer.

From what I can see, a crossover setup could work, possibly, but it would require that everything be just so. There is only about a 3 or 4 inch wide space for a drag link. Also, the frame will need to be strengthened, since the force applied to it will no longer be in the same plane as the side rail, but perpendicular to it (like Scout II and Chev).

Remember, this truck has a Dana 44HD front axle, which is stock for the '74 and '75 trucks. It does not have a Dana 60. The passenger knuckle has the boss on the top which could be tapped for studs and a hy-steer arm without much difficulty, were I so inclined.

I dunno. Still thinking. Just for grins and giggles, I would be interested in seeing the box and linkage on that '74 200.

[IHC-6]

I dunno. Still thinking. Just for grins and giggles, I would be interested in seeing the box and linkage on that '74 200.

Then next time you are here, walk out to the lineup and look at the one that is out there! :idea:

[binderbound]

colin, did you get my mail?we'll talk at the dunes.

[Colin Rush]

I forgot all about Atlas. I will be down on Saturday on the way to the coast, I will look at it then. I have some parts to drop off, and a tank to pick up, too. If it is not too much trouble, I would like to leave my pickup there over the weekend, and get it on the way back from the coast.

Yes Dan, I got it. I figured I would talk with you at the Dunes trip.

[Pacific]

tyme gypsy,

You might want to look again. The power steering box on a Scout II, 4X4 pick-up (71-73), and 2WD pick-ups with independent front suspensions (74-75) are all different. At least all the ones in my back yard say so.

Now you might try to find a ps box from a 1974-75 2wd IH indepenent front suspension truck and try that. This box looks like it might work the best. The Chevy conversion on the ORD website shows a set up using a 2wd Chevy box and the IH 74-75 unit looks to match as far as pitman arm location, throw, etc. This will be the direction I will going.

[TRAILBINDER]

ok, old topic, i know. but i searched and read and found this, and it asks the question i need to know. it didnt really get answered here, so im gonna ask again, whats the best route? i dont know about a chevy box working at all, and i dont know if i can lose my stock mounting bracket and bolt the box straight to the frame, turn the pitman and go. anybody have any links or info?

[RustoleumWhite]

I think the 2wd, IFS box is exactly what you need for cross-over steering on a PU. Bolts in place for the push-pull box, and gets the pitman arm in the orintation that you need and direction of travel you need.


I actually have one on my shelf that I have keep for exactly this reason.... should I ever go to cross-over with a full-size.


I don't know what Colin's solution was, but I would think a Chevy raised steering arm, and mayber even a spacer under it would get the geometry more in line with what it needs to be. As for turning tighter one way vs the other.... I don't thing cross over would help any with that.. on my 1310 2wd with the solid axle the tire hits the box/pitman arm cause me a limit on steering in the one direction.

[TRAILBINDER]

ok. ifs was only 74-75 correct? any word on using a 2wd chevy box, it does look pretty much the same. thanks for the reply

[Colin Rush]

I had a small issue come up with the truck (wiring fire), and have put it off for later in the year until it is driving again. I probably will not go with the crossover steering for at least a year. The IFS steering box looked promising. I seem to recall a possible interference with the front springs on mine, which is what I was worried about at that time. However, my bump steer had been much reduced once I got the U-bolts to stay tightened, which was one of the main reasons for wanting to go that route.

[bigmookied]

I am at the point where I need t make a turn (no pun intended) on the steering decision. I have a 69 3/4 ton travelall going with a 6" lift and 36's.

looks lke I can flip my Steering box and blah blah blah, but intereference becomes the issue..

What was the outcome of yours Colin? I am thinking I just beef up the push pull with a HD tie rod, Drag link and raised steering arm. Have Chevy D44 and IH Box so will probably ream out for Heim ends to make easy for eay trail fixes. Maybe a dual stabilizer to reduce bump steer.

I will not be crawling this 7000+ beast and most of it's use will be on the street. Not a daily driver, I work from home, but something fun to dirve to a spot and take the family gear.

Thanks.

[just4cuz]

They also have the raised Chevy steering arm/rams horn. With the taper going down from the top and a higher position on the arm it should work for lifts up to 4". Then you could make a drag link that has an S bend in it to take up the last 2".

[uglyscout]

What was the outcome of yours Colin?

I am not Colin -- but I stayed in a Holiday Inn this weekend...

Zero has been accomplished -- I believe the truck is sitting broken/torn apart or otherwise as we speak.

[just4cuz]

Well he had a wiring fire underhood at a gas station that went into his dash loom, but that was 2 years ago. So was his last post. Hopefully the truck has moved past that problem.

[uglyscout]

Well he had a wiring fire underhood at a gas station that went into his dash loom, but that was 2 years ago. So was his last post. Hopefully the truck has moved past that problem.

It hasn't. He bought another truck which blew a clutch -- so he started to rebuild the motor - And now has no moving IH's...

[RustoleumWhite]

It hasn't. He bought another truck which blew a clutch -- so he started to rebuild the motor - And now has no moving IH's...
I know the feeling :D

[Scout Broker]

It hasn't. He bought another truck which blew a clutch -- so he started to rebuild the motor - And now has no moving IH's...

What made him think that rebuilding the motor was going to help the clutch problem??:flipoff2:

[uglyscout]

What made him think that rebuilding the motor was going to help the clutch problem??:flipoff2:

You know Colin. Can't leave well enough alone and can't possibly finish one project before starting another.

Actually if I remember the cam bearings died around the same time as the clutch... and the timing gear crapped out and lost some teeth. I totally forgot that the truck wne tbelly up all at once.

[bigmookied]

stupid me thinking I might get help from someone who has completed a project here......:eek:

Anyone else, other than the illustrious Colin tackle something like this and COMPLETE IT???? :flipoff2:

[Klasick68]

I run a corssover setup on my 68 1200, Used the box off a 76 dodge 1/2 ton 2wd outside the frame with boxed and plated/drilled (sleeved to boxing plate). A few problems with this setup, lots of axle shift under steering (could probably use ram assist and/or trackbar), oil pan clearance, and most important for me, the need for lame high offset wheels to have tire to steering box clearance.
1 I'll probably end up running a track bar for now, dosent cause many problems except the need to replace front springs and or bushings kinda often
2The pan clearance issue I havent done much about since my junk is too tall, and isnt much of a problem (stock 1300 2wd 8800# front springs less 2nd leaf).
3 It may pay off in the long run to do the additional work to mount the box inside the frame, or use an over the frame box like an SII box (would need different internals for right turn on the wheel to= steering right)

I guess there really isnt much useful info here, but yea it can be done, and should be done better than I I did.

[RustoleumWhite]

stupid me thinking I might get help from someone who has completed a project here......:eek:

Anyone else, other than the illustrious Colin tackle something like this and COMPLETE IT???? :flipoff2:
If you got suck a problem with it.... why don't YOU finish one and report back. Sounds like you have all the parts, so just do it.

[bigmookied]

^^^Apparently Rustoleom does not understand sarcasm....more sarcasm...:flipoff2:

What the hell do I come to learn for? even more sarcasm...:flipoff2:





I will be completing the transformation here pretty soon and will post up as I progress.

In the meantime, here is some of what is going on:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g70/BigMookieD/Travelall%202008/DSC02039.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g70/BigMookieD/Travelall%202008/DSC02038.jpg

The revised rear and the case I drank while wirewheeling and rebuilding (there is a matching Chevy Disc 44 for the front)

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g70/BigMookieD/Travelall%202008/DSC02156.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g70/BigMookieD/Travelall%202008/IMG_05241.jpg

[just4cuz]

Wow your trailer hitch sure equalizes the tongue weight along the rear of the frame. I would go with the lifted Chevy steering arm off the axle and maybe a longer pitman arm or a slight drop in your drag link to keep the geometry correct. Unless you have plans for bigger tires/wheels this should work well.

[bigmookied]

trailer hitch is the only thing the PO did that was right, to protect his boat was the only reason.

I will be going with 36" tires on H1 wheels, so I will need to really assess this further. For what a good pitman, raised steering arm and dual steering stabilizer are gonna cost($250), I can get the rest of the Hy-Steer system for about $100 more (I already have a flat top knuckle D44 front).

Just hate to start buying then realize I went the wrong way and either way will lead to some sort of issues.

[just4cuz]

FWIW I had 36" bias ply Kelly Springfields on my 1976 Chevy 3/4 ton 4x4. 4 inch lift kit and just had the raised steering arm on the front end. Worked fairly well with no bump steer issues. Wish I could say the same about the springs. Those things were stiffer than Fred Flinstones tires!

[RustoleumWhite]

trailer hitch is the only thing the PO did that was right, to protect his boat was the only reason.

I will be going with 36" tires on H1 wheels, so I will need to really assess this further. For what a good pitman, raised steering arm and dual steering stabilizer are gonna cost($250), I can get the rest of the Hy-Steer system for about $100 more (I already have a flat top knuckle D44 front).

Just hate to start buying then realize I went the wrong way and either way will lead to some sort of issues.
Unless your re-centering the rims, your going to want to order some wheel spacers as well... atleast for the front and probably the back. Remember, H1 wheels have 7" of BS, thats 3" more than most common wheels.

2-3" spacers do the trick depending on what finished width you want.

Also, H1 rims (un cut) and a D44 front work, but will require a custom steering arm for high-steer. Running spacers should alleviate that.


It this an off-road machine? (Hard Core Wheeling?), if not, full high-steer really shouldn't be required, but theirs nothing wrong with it, just more parts to buy (another arm and hold-down gear, new tie-rod if your not going to reuse the stocker).


Food for thought.

[bigmookied]

I ordered the big Tie Rod with 7/8" heims from Ballistic Fab, half of this kit:

http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/assets/images/steeringkit/steeringkit.jpg

I am now wondering about the drag link side of the steering getting away from the hy-steer problems I might encounter (clearance and steering gear relocation).

What if I used a double shear dual rod system with misalignments from the pitman arm to the steering arm? or double shear with one half being a steering stabilizer to dampen push back at the steering gear? Maybe a triple stabilzer system to reduce bump steer......two on the Tie Rod and one on the Pitman/Drag Link.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g70/BigMookieD/Travelall%202008/stockfrsusp.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g70/BigMookieD/Travelall%202008/DoubleShear2TRfrsusp.jpg

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g70/BigMookieD/Travelall%202008/DoubleShear1TR1STShockfrsusp.jpg



Am I crazy or could this work? Just thinking out of the box here

[binderbound]

First off, thanks for supporting your IH vendors :flipoff2:

Second, you need to spend more time figuring how steering works. Stabilizers are band aids and have zero effect on bump steer. Bump steer is what happens when the wheel goes over a bump, you steer left. When it drops in a hole, you steer right. It has to do with the geometry of the steering links changing length when the axle moves. That's why you want your shit as flat as possible at ride height.

Back to the drawing board.

[RustoleumWhite]

I thought you were going cross-over?


Are you sticking with push-pull? In that case, get a draglink off a Chevy (adjustable), re-taper the pitman and steering arm as needed and run it. No need for double sheer if you use the right component's (way more effort than needed). The proper TRE/DLE will be MORE than strong enough.

Stabilisers go between the tie-rod and the axle, not the pitman arm. And they do NOTHING to limit bump steer, thats a geometry thing. Stabilisers are really a band aid for steering issues, or can be used as a cushion to slow the steering at your arms.

[RustoleumWhite]

Damn, Dan beat me too it :flipoff2:


yoru fast today... shouldn't you be fabbing something or selling a kidney to buy Diesel :flipoff2::flipoff2:

[bigmookied]

Sorry, but the local guys are great for the oddball crap I usually have to get for this big dumb beast, especially the more I go into Chevy parts. Plus shipping would kill me on this rod.

So my geometry will stay very similar to stock with the raised arm (4") and the 4" of lift adding.

Damn I thought the the double shear was a really good idea too.....I may just have to do it anyway.

Thanks.

[RustoleumWhite]

Don't get me wrong, double sheer IS stronger..... but not necessary. If you want to do it go for it.


Forgot Ballistic is local for you.... that could be nice (shipping kills on heavy crap sometimes)

[bigmookied]

nothing I put on this thing is light, so local is the way to go with shipping prices skyrocketing.

I guess I will do it all simple and repair/redesign as I break it.

Thanks all. Will post up when I get some stuff installed back in.

[just4cuz]

Do you have any concerns using H1 wheels on the Dana 44 front end? I think the spacers are a design for disaster since those 44 HD spindles have a proclivity to spin the wheel bearings. Your original idea for the suspension is adequate. Personally I would look for some old fashioned slotted mags and some 16.5 radials to put on it. They would be period perfect for the truck (if appearence means anything) and would stress those front wheel bearings a lot less.

[bigmookied]

I am getting the wheels and tires this weekend and will be doing a test fit. If they work with the setup as is, then I will not use spacers. Will help with rub as they will tuck under the fenders better.

In the long run if I don't like them I will get rid of them or re-center, I will not have any money into them so not a problem.

Rockcrawler wheels are a good cheap option in the long run with MTR's, either that or Lexani 24" clear acrylic wheels..............

[just4cuz]

Never priced the acrylic wheels and I probably would suffer some kinda physical reaction when I did. So I hope your kidding!:D

[bigmookied]

Acrylic Wheels, for that certain old school look......

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g70/BigMookieD/30in_AcrylicWheel_544x408.jpg

[binderbound]

Donk!