Timing gears

[dixieholler]

I have a 79 international scout 2, and the timing has recently jumped and it will no longer start,and i was wondering how hard the procedure of changing a timing "set" on a 345 international motor would be and if u know know anyone that has put a 258 straight 6 in a scout and how hard this would be " time to complete,mounting, etc." any help would be apreciated

[Mechanos]

Unless you've chunked teeth out of the timing gears themselves, there is no way for an SV to "jump time". You sound rather new to Internationals... you are checking the timing on #8 and NOT on #1 aren't you?

The timing gears are direct meshing gears.... there's no chain to jump.

[RustoleumWhite]

But it is possible for the distributor to slip.

Check timing off #8 as Mech said, if its off loosen the distributor and try to dial it back in. If you have to take the destributor out and adjust it a tooth, take a look at it carfully and figure out WHY its now a tooth off (sheared roll-pin holding the dizzy gear on, bad point what ever.....)

[dixieholler]

Yes, i am new to internationals but a 400 dollar scout is just something you cant pass up and iam mostly a committed jeep man. I however knew about the gears and no chain and somebody already explained the difficulty of the gears to break a tooth, and i just need some more ideas about how to fix it because ive just been workin on internationals for a week or two so ill try to time it off of the #8 instead of one and if anybody else has any ideas i would like to hear from you

[Chief yelling alot]

Static time it


set the timing marks at 5 BTDC on the compresion stroke pull the no 8 plug conect the ingnition lead and rest the plug on a good ground where you can see it. now losen the dizzy hold down clamp and turn the ingnition on. Now rotate the dizzy back and fourth till you see a spark at the plug. Now shorten you rotation movments till you can stop right where the spark happens. Clamp down the dizzy install No 8 plug and lead and she should fire up and get a timing light on it. if she dont fire up somthings fucked

[dixieholler]

alright im going to do that today so thanks and also i have already done this with the #1 plug but thats not the one u time it on so i will do and also if she doesnt fire right up what am i looking at then?

[Afireinside]

I feel like im on the binder bulletin.Ive had a few of the same problems as you.Don't be to quick to say it's timing I bought a 1980 scout and drove it home just fine and then the next day went to start it and had the same problems(friend kept saying timing)It turned out to be the coil intermitently going, $10 at autozone and it's still workin.Also because it's a 79 it should have a prestolite dist.(HAS 2 OR 3 Wires red, brown and maybe a white)but find out which dist. you have because they are known to fail after time.
Some factory scouts came with a 258 so there are many ways to go about putting one in but thats a whole nother thread.Unless you'r engine is really screwed the IH engine is a much better choice then the 258.If you are going to go through the trouble of swapping something else in there you have much better options than the 258.Like 440 or 454 or even the loved:shaking: 350.In my OPINON all of these engines are better than the 258.

Good luck and keep us posted

[Chief yelling alot]

.In my OPINON all of these engines are better than the 258.

Good luck and keep us posted


any engine would be

including
http://www.turfmachinery.com.au/images/Eng%20BS%208Hp%20Red%20ClUp.jpg

[Afireinside]

That's funny but I was talking about 440,454and the 350 being better swap in my OPINION than the 258.

[Urban Wheeler]

any engine would be

including
http://www.turfmachinery.com.au/images/Eng%20BS%208Hp%20Red%20ClUp.jpg
How about a Chrysler slant six? IH experimented with them in the 70's. I know a guy who has one ready to go in a Scout, wiring harness and all.

[dixieholler]

Well i havent had time to work on it lately but AFIREINSIDE sounds like hes telling the exact story of my internationals life but so your saying that the coil was sparking when u took the coil wire off and tried to start it and held it to a ground but that its was still not a good coil, because i have relpaced the rotor button and it started up just fine and the next day it didnt even try to start

[Urban Wheeler]

it started up just fine and the next day it didnt even try to start
Happened to me. I took of the coil wire and looked at the spark, it was a weak orange one. New coil, nice fat blue spark.



At least you knew it is gear drive and not chain...
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=261324&highlight=timing+chain

[Afireinside]

Yea my coil was working on and off so when I checked for spark sometimes it was there and sometimes not.I didn't know this because every time I checked it was working but apparently only long enough to make it sound like it was out of gas.The only reason I found this was because I had an extra coil and dist. so I just started with what was the easiest.
How many wires are coming out of your dist.?It could very well be that.
Like I said earlier I try what's easiest first and go from there.
Good luck.

[dixieholler]

I tried replacing the coil today with one of the 10 dollars parts store "OE" style and this however still didnt fix the problem it seems to be trying harder start now but however when it sounds like its going to start it just backfires out the carb or a small flame, or the mist of gasoline and i also made sure once again that when the #8 is on the top that the rotor button is pointing at #8 plug wire so im stumped as to what ideas to try now i didnt check the wires exiting but it is a prestolite im pretty sure becasue the cap has the female inputs on the top and i believe holley had the male inputs on the top i dont know though i may be wrong, its starting to take up room in the garage and cramping working space for the four letter word j**P, i guess the jeeps going to have to be sold:flipoff2: although this might not be the problem but the carb is fairly new and has yet to be adjusted besides the choke and is pumping fine no leaks in vacuum lines and everything is working good but it still hasnt been adjusted and wasnt new and came off a parts vehicle so i dont know just give your opinion

[Bindernut]

Not that it matters, but the Prestolite is the male cap, Holley is female...

Is the distributor 180 degrees out? Maybe you are firing at the top of the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke? Damaged timing gears are pretty rare...

[dixieholler]

:mad3: ive tried all things that have been mentioned by you all and its been helpful but its not seemed to start the international, id say there getting slim but anymore ideas

[BamaScout]

dixieholler,

where are you located?

[Urban Wheeler]

Not that it matters, but the Prestolite is the male cap, Holley is female...

Is the distributor 180 degrees out? Maybe you are firing at the top of the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke? Damaged timing gears are pretty rare...
So, points dizzy? Sorry, I don't know that much about IH distributors except that gold boxes suck. If he does have a points dizzy, maybe the points or condenser is bad.

[Bindernut]

Yeah, and if it was a Prestolite (cap has 8 little penises sticking up around the perimeter), I'd think maybe his little circuit board inside got fried, but it sounds to be an earlier Holley distributor that somebody has swapped in ('79 came with Prestolite, AFAIK).

Do you have a dwell meter? Check your dwell, or at least visually inspect your points to make sure there is no pitting, or burning from arcing.... Can you check your static timing just cranking the engine over? What does it say? Just keep using your head. :/

[Colin Rush]

Dixieholler,
I would suggest that you visit the Binder Bulletin here: http://www.binderbulletin.org/
and post this question. There are more folks with more experience with the plain-jane, bone-stock-type questions you have been asking, plus you stand a chance of actually finding someone in your area that might come and help you out. Before you do anything, read the FAQs, and if you do not find what you need, do a Search, and if you do not find what you need there either, then post it in the TechTalk section. Pirate is more for folks who want to modify their Scout, and while it is good for what it is, you will have a better chance of finding someone that will help you put an AMC 258 or 232 in it if you wish (offered stock in Scout IIs, Scout 800s, and some fullsize pickups and Travelalls built after 1967), or that will be able to answer your 345 questions. Heck, you might find someone in your area with the whole engine and related for next to nothing, or even free!

[dixieholler]

well, i looked at the binder website it is alot of help for my "Plain jane" questions. and i am planning on modifying my scout in the future if the dam thing would run and i did find some local parts running gears , motor, and axles from a guy that posts on the www.kymc.org message board, these are the guys the are building , organizing , and etc. for the new park in harlan kentucky which is about hour and 45 minutes from where iam from but thanks for the tip::smokin:

[Mechanos]

One thing I didn't think about before in my PM is the gold box. If your truck has one of these ignition boxes on it, they are notorious for working one minute and not the next. When they take a crap, they go completely out or just start working intermitantly.

Oh yeah, there is also the "wiggle the bulkhead connector" thing to.

[dixieholler]

Yeah ive heard about the notorious gold box before , and i understand its on the firewall and this is my last resort because im absolutely sure its firing number #8 on the compression stroke of the #8 piston. So this gold box thing is on the firewall at least what i hear soo, what do i need to do to go about (checking, fixing, can it be fixed?, new parts etc.) but id say this is my last resort on this particular scout so thanks alot for all the help and let me know about the box

[Urban Wheeler]

Lots of people have ditched it for points dizzy. There is a pertronix kit for the IH points distributor to get rid of the points.

I could probably get you a points dizzy if you can't find one locally.

[Mechanos]

Pretty sure they have also come out with a Pertronix Ignitor for the gold box dist. too. But I could be wrong..... I like me HEI.

[ihojeff]

Does it have spark????? If so its not your goldbox.

[Blind Driver]

well, i looked at the binder website it is alot of help for my "Plain jane" questions. and i am planning on modifying my scout in the future if the dam thing would run and i did find some local parts running gears , motor, and axles from a guy that posts on the www.kymc.org message board, these are the guys the are building , organizing , and etc. for the new park in harlan kentucky which is about hour and 45 minutes from where iam from but thanks for the tip::smokin:

Where are you located? Louisville by chance?:confused:

[dixieholler]

im located in corbin kentucky, its right off of I-75, you probably havent heard of it but most people have heard of london and its like 10 minutes away so when explaining to people where u live thats usually what u have to tell them, but iam getting spark but it doesnt have a gold box though its a points type i looked at it a little better and found out its not a gold box what u have to remeber is i know nothing about international dristr. and not alot about the rest of it but iam getting a spark and it is firing on the right piston at the right time and all that so i have no more ideas about what to try, maybe a whole new distr. would help it out if i can find a points typer for cheap or maybe u all have some more ideas

[ihojeff]

If you have spark, have timed the engine properly(rotor points at #8 when engine is at 0 degrees TDC), and fuel, then it should fire. When pumping the carb does fuel squirt out? Do you have spark at the spark plugs?

[dixieholler]

well it doesnt make much sense to me but i do have a spark from the coil, so what i did is hold my finger over the #8 piston and waited till the compression stroke and it was on 5 tdc and then and placed the #8 plug on that one that the button was pointing at so did i do this wrong and if i did tell me exactly what to do so i can get it right finally because what i did is what i though that needed to be done unless i understood the other instructions wrong, and yes it should fire because i mean what else could be wrong if its getting gas , fire on the coil, fire on the plugs, there in the right order, its a points type distr. from what i know now without the gold box, and the spark plugs are new then theres really nothing else to affect the starting but the timing so thats the problem im guessing for sure now. also when trying to start and u twist the distr. to dial it in to try to make it start it slows down cranking and when u twist it back it speeds back up, which is it slowing down when going counter clockwise and speeding up when going clockwise so i guess ive gave a few more details than before so maybe these will help to figure out the problem:confused: :smokin:

[Urban Wheeler]

Sure it's not flooded now?:D

Are you 100% sure that there is gas in the carb? Check the fuel pump fo good flow? Tried dumping a little gas down the carb and cranking? Sounds like it's not ignition, if you know the plugs are sparking.

[Harvester of Sorrow]

Sounds to me like you have a fucked up carb.

If everything is getting and giving spark, all the way out to the plugs...then it will fire and maybe run shitty, but it will crank right over.

It sounds to me from your vague descriptions that you have a carb that needs a simple rebuild. A dirty old carb is not your friend when trying to recesitate a vehicle. They will give you all the symptoms of a faulty ignition, and you will spend forever and a day chasing them.

Your fueling issues sound to me like either a blown power valve, and or sticky float needle.

Fill the float bowl with gas...Let it sit 8 hours or so...Take the carb off...and look down into the manifold. IF there is a puddle of gas there...well time for a rebuild.

[dixieholler]

well im going to try a rebuild of the carb because its a "new , old carb" so its new to me and old to someone so i got it from a guy that rents a garage/junkyard from us, and he said it worked but thats the classic junkyard man answer it worked when we took it off, and i was going to get a new carb and the parts store ordered the wrong one and the right one was more money than i had at the time but i got a really cheap one and i can rebuild it now with the money i saved so im definetly going to try to get the rebuild kit the next few days so ill let u all know how eveything works out. also sorry my descriptions are "vague" because im new to all this international stuff but from what i can tell its a really good thing to get into and everyone envolved seems to be really knowledgable and willing to share it so, thanks alot also it is getting gas in the carb and ive tried pouring some in and a little thrust in the carb to try start it and it didnt so im going to change the plugs which are probably fouled from trying to start it for so long and being saturated with the unburbt fuel and rebuilding the carb so hopefully this will help it out

[Blind Driver]

Have you tried pouring a little gas down the carb, and then crank it?
It should at least fire, and then probably die. But at least you'll know it it's fuel. Just because you have spark, doesn't mean that there is enough spark. :p

Nick

[dixieholler]

hey, thanks for all the ideas but i finally got it running and its going good now as of about 15 minutes ago and it idles about 5 grand but all ive got to do is just crank the idle screw and shell be ready to go again, it doesnt sputter or anything anymore just smooth idle, well not idle but u get the point, its a smooth 5k , so all i had to do was take the carb and clean it up a little and thats about all so, it was the timing at first but i moved the dizzy one tooth forward and that fixed the time and i got the used carb because my old one was broken almost in half and i cleaned it up, but now the inside better than i already had before and it just fired right up so stupid fix for a long problem couldnt have done it without your alls ideas , so thanks all :grinpimp:

[Bindernut]

Hey,
When you get the carb throttled down and the idle rpm and mixture dialed in, re-check the timing, it could be all screwed up. Make sure it's around 5 - 10 degrees BTDC or so, then readjust the idle mixture and rpm.