Want to keep the action moving? Then wake the hell up, and have one of these at the man made events! I've been saying this to deaf ears for years now, but come AWN, it makes extraction SO much more efficent, you need to do this!

EDIT - Just think of how many Pirate4x4.com banners would fit on the arm of that excavator! :idea:
:p

Seems like a no brainer.

it just makes sense and worked well for us at the W.E.ROCK Columbus event back in July (B3).... the roll crushed the intake and throttle body so it was not gonna move anywhere under it's own power....

I just hope we don't need it again next weekend :flipoff2:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=210466&d=1129517704

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=210467&stc=1&d=1129517843

I agree. At the ones in Phoenix we were talking how slow the volunteer ones were. I know our group of wheelers is much faster since we know the timetable on a Toy is about 5 minutes before you have to pull the plugs. They had a large endloader and semi truck wrecker at the Truckin' Nationals this weekend and used it several times. Hell, the used the loader on me twice and I didn't even get any smoke either time we had upright so quick.

It's embarrassing as hell to get pulled off like that but it sure is fast.

Here I am getting plucked off at a CalRocs event in 2002...

it would be too easy Lance and they didn't think of it, so they won't do it.

First pro rockcrawl I ever went to (CalRocs Fernley) had one.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/albums/fernley03/adr.jpg

I thought that was standard operation procedure, and was almost more fun watching busted rig get plucked off the course like so many Hotwheels.

-t

it would be too easy Lance and they didn't think of it, so they won't do it.

I am not a paid UROC staff but I work hard to make sure everything runs smoothly, especially on the east coast.

One of the things that many people seem to forget is that it is the competitors responsibility to remove their vehicle from the obstacle. The recovery team is provided as a courtesy.

Technically this means they do not have to provide any kind of recovery. Could you image how slow things would move then?

I hate to say this but that is the stupidest rule. Do other organizations make them clean up the NASCAR's, monster trucks, drag cars, etc....
We are all building insane coarses that competitors are destroying their rides and we should think of the competitors first to help them not to destroy them even more by dragging them upside down for 20 feet before we can get them on their wheels. I agree with Lance

No offense Amanda, but the rule is silly enough, defending it? well.......

It's in everyones best interest to have a smooth exciting entertaining show. The promoter designs/builds the courses and anyone with a clue can determine where people are likely to break /flop. So a good plucking plan needs to be in place- sometimes you can do it with volunteers and jeeps etc- sometimes you'll be there hrs without the right heavy equipment.

Can we teams pitch in and get ourselves out- sure we can, with time and manpower. Want to close a course or delay running it for hours??? Think think the promoter will be happy with the delay, what about the fans? Then the right tools need to be provided- between the site and promotors to work out. Rather than defend a clearly inferior position, let's learn from the small investment others have made in a great recovery system and improve all the major races.

BTW, that course in columbus was a perfect example of the right equipment saving hours.

I am not a paid UROC staff but I work hard to make sure everything runs smoothly, especially on the east coast.

One of the things that many people seem to forget is that it is the competitors responsibility to remove their vehicle from the obstacle. The recovery team is provided as a courtesy.

Technically this means they do not have to provide any kind of recovery. Could you image how slow things would move then?

:rolleyes:

Yeah the old days... :D

:rolleyes:
well said.

On the other hand...Devil's advocate....

1. Other-than-spectator considerations. Nobody here would have to explain the change to sponsors like Warn, Ramsey, etc...Would they like it?

2. To throw it back at those who constantly harp on the direction that rockcrawling is going: Doesn't that take the sport 'further' away from the purity of where it came from. Isn't recovery an important part of the ROOTS of hardcore rockcrawling? :p

...but....

It sure would be a lot faster, entertaining, and probably safer.

2. To throw it back at those who constantly harp on the direction that rockcrawling is going: Doesn't that take the sport 'further' away from the purity of where it came from. Isn't recovery an important part of the ROOTS of hardcore rockcrawling? :p
.

Do you think Joe spectator gives a rat's ass about the "Roots" of anything while they are sitting there waiting an hour for an extraction that could take 2 minutes with a lift or excavator?

As for sponsorship stuff, put Warn banners on the damn excavator. If they don't like it, get CATERPILLAR as a replacement sponsor. ;)

The bottom line is, UROC wants fans. Fans get bored quick. They want non-stop action.

Go to any event that utilizes these machines, and you'll see what I mean.

The bottom line is, UROC wants fans. Fans get bored quick. They want non-stop action.


Yup. You can get away with the occasional SHORT stoppage in a sport that's "fast" (like a 5-lap yellow at a NASCAR race). But, when you've got a sport that's already kinda slow, NO stoppage is really acceptable.

TEX

Talking about the recovery scenario where Warn, Ramsey and other winch manf'rs might be upset... The damned buggies don't even use their own winches for recovery... they can't... and that is BS to me. I think that the rules should state the recovery winch must be readily usable for self extraction. If the competitor chooses to use an axle winch, it cannot be the same winch used for recovery or has to pass through the fairlead at the extremity of the vehicle before hooking (not bolting, clamping or other tools-required method od attachment) to the axle.

Sponsors still have their names and equipment on every vehicle running the courses, as they're required to have a winch.

Recovery vehicles are still there for those easy yanks, but the bigger equipment is there to snatch the royally screwed folks.

The best thing I like about the volunteer recovery folks is that it gives us judges time to take a breather and get something to drink.

Talking about the recovery scenario where Warn, Ramsey and other winch manf'rs might be upset... The damned buggies don't even use their own winches for recovery... they can't... and that is BS to me. I think that the rules should state the recovery winch must be readily usable for self extraction. If the competitor chooses to use an axle winch, it cannot be the same winch used for recovery or has to pass through the fairlead at the extremity of the vehicle before hooking (not bolting, clamping or other tools-required method od attachment) to the axle.

Sponsors still have their names and equipment on every vehicle running the courses, as they're required to have a winch.

Recovery vehicles are still there for those easy yanks, but the bigger equipment is there to snatch the royally screwed folks.

The best thing I like about the volunteer recovery folks is that it gives us judges time to take a breather and get something to drink.
unless you're running both recovery and judging duties on your course :D

having never been to a man made course for a comp. I've never seen that in action. having helped with recovery at a handfull of events for w.e. rock, sometimes one of those would just be killer to have and pluck dustin out from what ever crackline he fell into :D

The damned buggies don't even use their own winches for recovery... they can't... and that is BS to me.

Hey Thump,
Not sure where you are a Judge, but I have used my winch to self-recover during UROC comps here on the east this year.

Your passionate thoughts about competitor self-recovery begs the question:
How many winch points are built into the average man made UROC course?
Allow me to answer my own question: NONE.

If UROC wants us to pull ourselves out of trouble (while the fans get bored and other teams loose time that ultimately leads to them being rushed and tired at the end of the "too long" day) what have they done to enable this requirement to even make it possible?

Of course the reason they haven't done this is because UROC knows it is not desireable to wait for competitors to recover themselves.

The winch rule (minimum 5000 # rating) is a legacy of days gone by in the supermod class and everyone knows it. Nobody pays an entrance fee to watch the driver and spotter pull "cable" and drag themselves off the course at a mind numbingly slow rate.

Speed is the word for recovery, whether it is a big ass crane or an army of chinese slave laborers shipped in for each event :eek: :laughing: (but that is a suggestion for another thread).

Lance's orginal post also pointed out a key factor in making this happen: The crane's would definately be sponsored to absorb the cost and I would be surprised if the winch vendors didn't compete to see who's name went on the rig.

Rather than lament how far the sport has strayed from the roots, why not look at this in the way it was offered: an opportunity for improvement.

To be quite honest...I think having a lift, excavator, loader, or even a crane at an event would defenitely help all aspects as described above. But the kicker to everything is a piece of equipment is not and will not always be the right solution to an extraction. Sometimes a rig just needs a pull or whatever. So this is your simple solution to Winch sponsors not being happy, cause if you as me they still will need to be used even if you have equipment at an event.

I think it would have made SCIII go a hell of a lot faster if they had any equipment there. Standage and someone else both wedged their rigs in a crack and it took forever and did more damage than the actual roll.

My 2 cents.

At the RROCK comps, Tom uses his track hoe to excavate rigs like mine off the course. Not only is it a huge convienence for competitors, it cures many problems with competition time.

1 It saves promotors from having to rely on addition volunteers to help with recovery. You know how hard it is to find good volunteers.

2 it saves time on courses so that the end of the day comes faster...therefore competitors and judges aren't "hurried"

3 Spectators don't get bored as quickly, infact, they almost like watching the rigs get air lifted as much as getting air borne by their own power. Vehicle recovery has finally been found as a SPECTATOR EVENT.


Sure winch manufacturers would love to see everyone at their event using their products for vehicle recovery, but they want the sport of rockcrawling to grow so that their advertisments reach more and more people. Word of mouth don't work in a positive manor if people get bored and don't have fun. The media wouldn't be as interested in getting involved if you made the slowest autosport get slower than it already is. I'm sure the winch manufactures realize this truth. Besides, their products are already required on every vehicle. On a more serious note, how often do you watch recovery on video or on air? Compare that # to how many times you might see a winch manufactures banner on air. Media coverage is what these sponsors want.

I'd have to say there is more drama and or impact of the carnage to the average fan when someone is air lifted out- and more of an impact on cool pit crew deeds when the same car comes screamin back to compete a short while later:)

The extractions were quick and easy. Getting an escavator into all the places UROC and WEROCK utilize as comp places is most probably the reason we don't see them. Where it makes sense are the new arena's and man made courses.

I can't imagine and didn't know that there were rockcrawling comps without extraction equipment. Since day 1 of RROCK comps Tom's trackhoe has been used repeatedly throughout the day. And it is true that you'll see more camera flashes during this time than during any other time at our competition. Spectators love it...competitors dread what happens to need it...but they really appreciate the help.
Winch companies have no fear because an RROCK competitor will use a winch always (because common sense tells you that a winch is worth 15 points per stage...trackhoe means YOU'RE DONE) before requiring or requesting the trackhoe
Extraction truly does make the comp go by so much easier. It's kind of cool when a competitor needs extraction and we do have tractors available...but they say "No Tom, I want the helicopter ride from the trackhoe".

One of our RROCK competitors(MikE Garner) posted here on pirate before this last weekend's comps Quote:"mikE(really hoping to stay away from the end of that darn backhoe)
Well, he did...until the optional bonus stage.
Mike Garner and Team Renrag Racing trying to bond before the comp:
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL419/1417243/8376541/115457611.jpg

Familiar place for trackhoe usage (mikE made it successfully through this stage this weekend!)
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL419/1417243/7426633/110435000.jpg


Just a few examples of RROCK competitors getting "the privelage of the trackhoe" :D

http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL419/1417243/8376541/115438211.jpg

http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL419/1417243/8376541/115438472.jpg

http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL419/1417243/8376541/115438500.jpg

www.rrock.us

You had to put the proof of me needing it didn't ya?

The easiest way to get the promoters to provide the needed equipment is to boycot those events that fail to provide extraction equipment. Hit em in the pocket book and see how fast they get some equipment.

Don't feel bad Nathan, I had to get on that thing this weekend too. But it is a lot better being air lifted out that trying to tear up lots more equipment trying to extract yourself. Tom Thanks for the helicopter ride, I know you have been looking forward to that LOL, I did not mind it at all.

The easiest way to get the promoters to provide the needed equipment is to boycot those events that fail to provide extraction equipment. Hit em in the pocket book and see how fast they get some equipment.

equally:rolleyes:

I think the way the sport has grown with the man made courses the extraction equipment is a must. Some of the natural courses the equipment may not help but man made is a different story becausse there are few if any winch points, the lines are difficult and when you get stuck your in there. Also there is concern for the rigs and the course which can be damaged a lot more by dragging them out.

On a professional note, we have had 8 events using heavy equipment as recovery vehicles. And I love how easy and time saving using the equipment is. But, on a personal note, I believe that we still need regular recovery vehicles and this is why...

Comp vehicles are fragile, regardless of how bullet proof we make these vehicles, they will not last compared to the strength and unforgivibility of an excavator or tractor.

When you use a winch and the extracted vehicle gets into a bind, the winch will load down and we realize the situation further. An excavator does not load down and will just rip the vehicle out, maybe tearing suspension, wheels, etc.

We have never had this problem, though I will never rule it out. We take extreme caution and pride in the way we recover vehicles.

you are welcome to pick up anywhere on my chassis to lift mine out - lift clear not drag - with anything available. that is perfered by me instead of dragging "over" obstructions - that's where you'll be more likely to rip off my suspension. but i have certainly appreciated the recovery teams (we are well aquainted) getting me out and back to the trailer on more than one occassion.

Don't feel bad Nathan, I had to get on that thing this weekend too. But it is a lot better being air lifted out that trying to tear up lots more equipment trying to extract yourself. Tom Thanks for the helicopter ride, I know you have been looking forward to that LOL, I did not mind it at all.

Alan, Tom says you're welcome...any time!:D
Oh and sorry I left you out. Here's a pic from Saturday:
http://pic12.picturetrail.com/VOL419/1417243/8376541/115527586.jpg

Hey Thump,
Not sure where you are a Judge, but I have used my winch to self-recover during UROC comps here on the east this year.

Your passionate thoughts about competitor self-recovery begs the question:
How many winch points are built into the average man made UROC course?
Allow me to answer my own question: NONE.

If UROC wants us to pull ourselves out of trouble (while the fans get bored and other teams loose time that ultimately leads to them being rushed and tired at the end of the "too long" day) what have they done to enable this requirement to even make it possible?

Of course the reason they haven't done this is because UROC knows it is not desireable to wait for competitors to recover themselves.

The winch rule (minimum 5000 # rating) is a legacy of days gone by in the supermod class and everyone knows it. Nobody pays an entrance fee to watch the driver and spotter pull "cable" and drag themselves off the course at a mind numbingly slow rate.

Speed is the word for recovery, whether it is a big ass crane or an army of chinese slave laborers shipped in for each event :eek: :laughing: (but that is a suggestion for another thread).

Lance's orginal post also pointed out a key factor in making this happen: The crane's would definately be sponsored to absorb the cost and I would be surprised if the winch vendors didn't compete to see who's name went on the rig.

Rather than lament how far the sport has strayed from the roots, why not look at this in the way it was offered: an opportunity for improvement.
I did get a little off subject there for a sec. I rant every now and again and it is always in the wrong arena.
I am a judge for W.E. ROCK, and have been to one where extraction equipment was available.
I, too, believe that the comps should use heavy equipment whenever possible. Dragging along the course does more than tear up the rigs and take time... it also changes the face of the obstacle in some cases and creates an advantage for the remaining competitors that are going to hit it. Decomposed granite and sandstone are easy to crumble to dust.

I got on my rant concerning the winches, as I have seen too often on natural courses where we had to wait several mins for a recovery rig to get into place because the competitor didn't have a usable winch on their rig... even though they were PERFECTLY lined up to a viable and even designated winch point.

I did get a little off subject there for a sec. I rant every now and again and it is always in the wrong arena.
I am a judge for W.E. ROCK, and have been to one where extraction equipment was available.
I, too, believe that the comps should use heavy equipment whenever possible. Dragging along the course does more than tear up the rigs and take time... it also changes the face of the obstacle in some cases and creates an advantage for the remaining competitors that are going to hit it. Decomposed granite and sandstone are easy to crumble to dust.

I got on my rant concerning the winches, as I have seen too often on natural courses where we had to wait several mins for a recovery rig to get into place because the competitor didn't have a usable winch on their rig... even though they were PERFECTLY lined up to a viable and even designated winch point.

More stuff to digest. My 5 or 6k winch will easily work in a comp situation under load, car running, like we (most all) climbed the very vert bonus at the last UROC Pro event- not a hiccup. Or- we used to climb that big loose vert in Jellico (more of a test)

Take same car, invert it in a crack/hole etc, hydrolock it (no motor help) and with that kind of load the battery may last 10 seconds. I'm all for clear the course fast, but there are limitations to anyone's equipment and it's important to respect that.

Peace:)

I agree! It needs to faster, easier, and it woud be more exciting. Rich Grande also had a great point about being able to be careful as well.

Okay...Let's set up real-world a scenerio:

Supercrawl V 2006
::Metropolitan area.
::3-day Event

Does anyone have a handle on a 3 day rental fee, delivery, pickup and operator for a trackhoe big enough to handle the job? Oh ya, don't forget Union Fees.

What would it realistically cost? I have NO CLUE! Any heavey equipment guys out there?

I agree! It needs to faster, easier, and it woud be more exciting. Rich Grande also had a great point about being able to be careful as well.

Okay...Let's set up real-world a scenerio:

Supercrawl V 2006
::Metropolitan area.
::3-day Event

Does anyone have a handle on a 3 day rental fee, delivery, pickup and operator for a trackhoe big enough to handle the job? Oh ya, don't forget Union Fees.

What would it realistically cost? I have NO CLUE! Any heavey equipment guys out there?


It's really not that hard, involve the local 4x4 crowd- they are in the community and know people, give them VIP/pitpasses for 10 of their family and friends and throw some cash their way- the equipment is most often idle for the weekend anyway. Let them hang their own banner advertising to the local crowd. Heck, whenever I rent equipment for the weekend I rent it for one day- they're closed on Sunday, I bring it back Monday AM.

We've had extend-a-boom track hoes at our club's Rocktoberfest the last few yrs for a couple Benjamins.

The guy in (Is it Guy???) Portland is networked in his community, we have competitors (had??) in Phoenix with the equipment. Don't we know people in Salt lake?? There's 3/5 sites already- someone has to want to, and run with the ball:)

I ran back hoes for a short time and can admit, time with them is expensive. A track hoe is even worse and you would need a track hoe to the job right and to do it safely.

If by chance you get an union apprientice operator who knows how to fully and safely run a track hoe and do a quick, successful recovery, It would only cost you $28.61 per hour with a minimum of 4 hours I believe. Then you would have to rent the track hoe and either have the truck and trailer big and strong enough to handle the load, or have to rent that addition equipment. I guess you could also have it delievered...for a fee. You would be responsible for any repairs needed like hydrauloc lines that bust, ect. You would also be required to clean the tracks and oil the damn thing.

As far as track hoes not being run on the weekends...not too sure about that. There are too many days a month that the ground can not be cut. Too cold, too frozen and too wet are the most obvious. In spring there is not a single warm and dry conditioned day that goes by where dirt equipment is not run. Union crews will often work 10 hour days 7 days a week when there is work...no matter what season.

A long story short, most promotors couldn't afford this expense. As the costs of putting on these competitive events continue to increase, promotor funding will gradually decrease. <--hope not. But realistically, unless you know someone or know someone who knows some one, your probably gonna pay more than you want to. Therefore, it's most likely not cost effective. But they sure do make the competition that much better.

The guy in (Is it Guy???) Portland is networked in his community

Guy in Portland is Glynn and yes he is well respected and connected.

Guy in Portland is Glynn and yes he is well respected and connected.


Whoops, right, Guy is the other guy and still working on the respect thing. No offense- Glynn is the man, bet he can make it happen at a reasonable cost:)

A long story short, most promotors couldn't afford this expense. As the costs of putting on these competitive events continue to increase, promotor funding will gradually decrease. <--hope not. But realistically, unless you know someone or know someone who knows some one, your probably gonna pay more than you want to. Therefore, it's most likely not cost effective. But they sure do make the competition that much better.

Exactly! Try convinving teh Union-battered Las Vegas Convention Center that your 'buddy' who owns a small construction business is going to bring his trackhoe to pluck rigs out fo the obstacles then show them the pics from this thread.

...Then sit back and watch their legal department nix it and cite 15 reasons why, first reason being liability and on from there.

Glen's place is unique in that he is the owner, he has the equipment and opertator, and I don't think that the 'Unions' have a strong-hold yet at the X-Plex in Portland Indiana

So it looks like we all agree we should make an effort to do it where and when we can, and peacefully accept that it's just not feasible/practical in all places- group hug time:)

I don't think the originator intended for any other outcome.

I can only imagine how much that would cost at the Las Vegas Convention Center. Especially considering one of these is $427 an hour

Wow....pricey!
It would probably have to be a case-by-case basis. But I bet we see something next year at Portland...Go Glenn!

So it looks like we all agree we should make an effort to do it where and when we can, and peacefully accept that it's just not feasible/practical in all places- group hug time:)

I don't thing the originator intended for any other outcome.
:laughing:

Round and round and back the the beginning.
it was a fun ride though.

I can only imagine how much that would cost at the Las Vegas Convention Center. Especially considering one of these is $427 an hour

That's totally outrageous :eek:

TEX

That's totally outrageous :eek:

TEX

Wow- just caught the hour part. You sure that's right??? Does the price incude ladies "modeling" on the platform?

I can only imagine how much that would cost at the Las Vegas Convention Center. Especially considering one of these is $427 an hour

We have been fortunate enough to have worked with these things before, and will have three at the Grand Nationals, One for our Announcers and the other two for media and sponsors.

I can only imagine how much that would cost at the Las Vegas Convention Center. Especially considering one of these is $427 an hour


Damn, we only pay $100-400 a day depending on the size and if it is 2 or 4 wheel drive.

:idea:

Build a better crawler and don't get stuck! :laughing:

No need for an excavator...

But I'd have to agree I'd rather go to a show with one than the long hard way out...

Here on the East Coast I had been a Judge through Erocc to UROC
Last year I helped on the Recovery Crew for UROC and WEROC
On the man made courses like columbus the High lift did the job fast and quick, but while the High lift was busy with one recovery we might be taking care of 2 more at the same time
On larger courses like Jellico I doubt one lift could handle the entire area or get into some of the places needed
But the sport is advancing and changing and man made courses seem to be the future.
Of course the Recovery Crew is A Volunteer Group that supplies their own rigs, man power and extracting gear for these event. Plus wear and tear on their rigs.
Winch ropes were provided by one of the Vendors in the days of Erocc
This Year Uroc gave us new ropes and two 6,000lb warn winches which were traded in for larger winches with the individuals paying the difference. This is more than we have ever recieved in the past but as for any large amount of sponsorship, I can't say we made out like bandit's

I know that every competitor We have helped out with: a pull out, flip over, tow out, tools on hand to fix their rig, Welding job on the spot, Ride out to get a part, put out a fire on the rig, or just a bottle of cold water and a rag to wipe off with. Every Competitor, Pro on down has been glad we were there and thanked us for the trouble that we went too and we enjoyed being there to help out

To tell you the truth, I would not mind at all being replaced with a High Lift, It would be a whole lot less expence on me

Although I figure it would increase the competitor's fee's for UROCC will have to rent at least 2 of those to handle a competition and they will have to man them, I figure the are about a grand a Piece for a weekend

If you don't want or need us, we don't have to be there
I guess we will have to see what next year brings

No way that a recovery crew is replaced...they could never be. However, there is no reason they cannot be "enhanced" with a better tool for "certain" jobs where a vertical extraction is the fastest/easiest thing. That speeds EVERYONE up and makes us ALL look more professional.

Sure, a fireman can use a crowbar to open a crushed car door, but they'd be better off with the "jaws of life" wouldn't they?

Thanks Dustin
I Hope to look forward to pulling you out next year

FAWKER.......









but I won't turn your winchrope down my friend!

If there are any event sites in Denver I can help out with a Gradall and a guy/guys to run it

I would ask the event promoter pay for transportation and fuel for the lift and I may be able to arrange a boom for aerial photography :flipoff2:

I can only imagine how much that would cost at the Las Vegas Convention Center. Especially considering one of these is $427 an hour

I rent those every day in vegas and they are no where near that much $$$. try $450 a week tops.
I know I could get a few Forks delivered for a weekend for the exposure and a few free passes.
I know nothing of track hoes and the like but boom forks are getting pretty big and are 4x4 these days.
The company I deal with sends lots of scissors to the speedway on race weekend for the exposure and Tickets.
I like the Idea,

Wayne

But are you renting them in Vegas for use on "Union" grounds?

But are you renting them in Vegas for use on "Union" grounds?

Bingo. I remember that stuff from back when I worked in the photo industry, setting up for shows and whatnot. Convention centers aren't run by promoters; they're run by the unions that do the work, and you play by the union's rules, at the union's rates. My guess is, the promoter is bound by the union and/or their own insurance to only use the union's heavy equipment, which, well, see above.

If the event isn't on convention center property, all the rules (and rates) go back to normal-life, but Ford is more likely to fire the entire UAW, than SEMA is to put on a convention elsewhere than a convention center, with the attendant convention center union labor. Want the exposure of having the event at SEMA, deal with the convention center stuff... put it elsewhere, and deal with the rules of the somewhere-else instead. Just gotta find the right balance.

Bingo. I remember that stuff from back when I worked in the photo industry, setting up for shows and whatnot. Convention centers aren't run by promoters; they're run by the unions that do the work, and you play by the union's rules, at the union's rates. My guess is, the promoter is bound by the union and/or their own insurance to only use the union's heavy equipment, which, well, see above.

If the event isn't on convention center property, all the rules (and rates) go back to normal-life, but Ford is more likely to fire the entire UAW, than SEMA is to put on a convention elsewhere than a convention center, with the attendant convention center union labor. Want the exposure of having the event at SEMA, deal with the convention center stuff... put it elsewhere, and deal with the rules of the somewhere-else instead. Just gotta find the right balance.


...amen.....

It all depends on what you are doing. We did work on union jobsites all the time. You just have to agree to pay your employees at scale. As far as renting equipment down there, we also used to rent equipment all the time. More than likely, they are renting the property and able to use what ever equipment they want. I know Sunbelt and United are big down there. I can't remember the other one we used. I remember Hertz being a pain in the A$$. There are ways to work with the unions if you are creative and abide by rules.

It all depends on what you are doing. We did work on union jobsites all the time. You just have to agree to pay your employees at scale. As far as renting equipment down there, we also used to rent equipment all the time. More than likely, they are renting the property and able to use what ever equipment they want. I know Sunbelt and United are big down there. I can't remember the other one we used. I remember Hertz being a pain in the A$$. There are ways to work with the unions if you are creative and abide by rules.

The other one is Ahern and I loose Equipment on race and convention weekends all the time. It comes back on monday or tuesday sometimes with the banners and stickers still on em.

True about the union and thier rules but there are ways to donate or Comp for exposure. It is only if there are union promotional compaies running the event and in vegas I would bet there are. In other site though it could be done easily. I know I could have 2 Gradalls to JV with one phone call and licenced Operators for tickets and a ride after the event was done, maybe some grub too.

Wayne

Damn, we only pay $100-400 a day depending on the size and if it is 2 or 4 wheel drive.


same here