Well, as they say, history repeats itself, but it sure doesnt look like it with the way that the :rainbow: automakers are directing things.. It would be great to see the old Broncos, Blazers, Scouts, etc make a comeback. All the automakers need to please us is a low cost, no gadgets, beefy, yet spartan vehicle. So... what do yall think? Will the engineers get their heads outta their arses?

Here's my reasoning for my answer of Hell no. EPA and mileage regulations have caused the automakers to down size or ligthen the vehicles to the crap we see now. Only exception is the TJ even the liberty is a compromise for the leather seat crowd. Antway we can all hope that someday, somehow, and someway.........
Rich

I agree with Rich. It is not so much the engineers as the DOT and EPA requirements. You can't make a low budget vehicle that has SEFI and gets 25 mpg with front and side airbags. :rasta: It sucks but I don't see any way around it. Maybe if you waint LONG enough and elect Libertarians to revoke all of these needless laws... :D

They are still here. The Unimog, the non-imported diesel 70 series Land Cruisers....
Charlie

The overall market for a bare bones no-frills 4wd are minimal compared to the mallgoers demand.

federal regulations such as side airbags by 2005 are even going to kill off the TJ as we know it.

our only hope is that the traditional sales curve takes effect. that is, one or two companies start a niche market that starts to catch on. Soon, the market is flooded with copies and alternatives but those who prepare only for a short run, quick entry will soon pull out of the market as resaources are depleted, leaving the original manufacturers in an open market once again.

not likely though.....looks like we're stuck with junkyards and aftermarket parts.....

mmm.... leather..... man that would be sweet.

Originally posted by Big Rich
EPA and mileage regulations have caused the automakers to down size or ligthen the vehicles to the crap we see now.
Rich

Huh?? Seems to me the trend is bigger and heavier. Every maker has a truck or SUV or both and I think they tend to be heavier than the average vehicle.

Sadly, Toyota made these vehicles right up to 1997. How hard could it be to stick in a couple of airbags?? I think they really missed the boat. They had an in-production vehicle with a 3l turbo diesel and 2 solid axles. And I think they still do make some solid axle Cruisers for the overseas markets??

you will never get rid of emmissions controls fuel injection or the like but things that don't effect economy like ifs, cushy interiors, complicated sheetmetal, ect. these could all go.
the manufacturers will never go for it, unless they find a market for base level cab / chassis trucks that come with nothing?

It's all a matter of economics. The 80% of the market the automakers are building for want a 4x4 that rides like a car, is comfortable, can hold 3 kids a dog + luggage and gets resonably good gas milage.
And these people only have problems with the 4WD portion of their vehicles because of lack of use.

My boss has a 95 S-10 Blazer that gets put into 4-HI maybe 4 times a year and that's only to drive the 30 miles to work in the snow. It's been in 4-LO once since she's owned it and that's because I was driving.
This is the type of person they're designing 4x4's for today.

well i think that they will come back to a limited extent for industrial purposes and the military.

look at the world picture instead of just the US. dozens of countries still need good military vehicles, and farmers need workhorses, and authorities still need capable trucks too.

i expect that in the US, by 2010 there will be maybe one or two trucks left with a solid front axle. maybe none. in the world market, however, i think that manufacturers such as toyota, land rover, mercedes-benz, and others will continue to make formidable off road vehicles that we will never hope to see here.

long live the...

Gelandewagen!
Defender 90/110!
UniMog!
Hilux pickup!
70 series Cruiser!

A full-size, 1980's rusted up POS that has provided 20+ years of reliable transportation to some old man that has sight problems can probably still kill that 40,000 fully interior air-bagged car that is supposedly safe...Why?? Because it doesn't have a bunch of crumple BS...

Real 4x4's are always coming back...how is this??? They are being revived from the dead out of the junkyards, piece by piece, and purchased from their back-yard graves...

Help to keep it all alive...

Most military vehicles are going independant suspended as well, mainly for the ground clearance...Only HD industrial military 4x4's will retain solid axles because the IFS and IRS components can't withstand the hauling and pulling loads that a 6-ton 6x6 could provide.

all you guys need to do is get me a product development internship with ford and I will make sure a new bronco gets made..... how does the 'stang 4.6 running on 2 9-inchers sound for good stock equipment :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Dirty Harry
Maybe if you waint LONG enough and elect Libertarians to revoke all of these needless laws... :D

Elect Libertarians??? Who do you think passed all these stupid laws and requirements in the first place?? I for one would love to see some real trucks get built on a frame smaller than 3/4 ton, but I really don't see it ever happening again, at least not in CA. We have way to many liberal tree huggers, who love their 45 mpg Geo's, and force us to drive 4 cylinders because they don't want to inhale all our exhaust. The market for the vehicles we want to drive is far too small to convince auto makers, and polliticians to change the way they design our future. All we can do is hope it doesn't get any worse, and fight to keep what we have.............

Brian--

on a different note I think a properly built independently suspended rig CAN outperform solid axle, but I won't get into that fight now.

Originally posted by schuss
on a different note I think a properly built independently suspended rig CAN outperform solid axle, but I won't get into that fight now.


Then you're not only a newbie, but a dumb newbie too.:) but i won't get into that fight now...

Originally posted by 82FB



Then you're not only a newbie, but a dumb newbie too.:) but i won't get into that fight now...

i agree with the newbie. a PROPERLY built IS rig could kick the butt off of a lot of solid axle rigs. i am thinking forced articulated IS though, with a hydro ram pushing down each corner.

the weak link is still those DAMN cv joints though.

Originally posted by mkbruin
The overall market for a bare bones no-frills 4wd are minimal compared to the mallgoers demand.

federal regulations such as side airbags by 2005 are even going to kill off the TJ as we know it.

our only hope is that the traditional sales curve takes effect. that is, one or two companies start a niche market that starts to catch on. Soon, the market is flooded with copies and alternatives but those who prepare only for a short run, quick entry will soon pull out of the market as resaources are depleted, leaving the original manufacturers in an open market once again.

not likely though.....looks like we're stuck with junkyards and aftermarket parts.....


Ding, ding, ding. The feds have done more to kill off the no frills
4X4 than any other factor.:mad3: :mad3: :mad3: :mad3:
I just wish there was some way of a manufacturer to make a bare
bones 4X4 without all the government B.S. regs and still be able
to sell it. Even if they could and the customer signed a wavier to
release the manf. from liability, the damn lawyers:mad3: :mad3: would
still screw the deal up.

i hate to bring it up but i would be willing to wager that the new rubicon jeep is more capable off roader than any of the old school rigs.

don't get me wrong i love old iron but the new rubicon heep is pretty well set up.

Originally posted by camo
i hate to bring it up but i would be willing to wager that the new rubicon jeep is more capable off roader than any of the old school rigs.

don't get me wrong i love old iron but the new rubicon heep is pretty well set up.

yeah I agree 100%
but how long will it last is the question!

Originally posted by 1uglyranger


Elect Libertarians??? Who do you think passed all these stupid laws and requirements in the first place??

Brian--

I think you have Libertarians confused with Liberals.


Libertarians want the government to keep the roads paved and the mail delivered, then go home.

Liberals want the government to be mommy and daddy to everyone.

Libertarians got their name from the strong belief in civil liberty

Liberals got their name for having a "liberal" interpretation of the constitution.

Left....Liberal........Moderate........Conservativ e........Libertarian..Right

Hell i think after the SUV craze is over The market will drop back to real 4X4's. If soccer moms arnt wanting the Marg simpson Canyonaro then the manufacturers will quit producing them. Thus the only market for 4x4's will be the people who actually use them. Wich will be you, me, and farmer Joe who wants the no thrill working class 4x4 vehicle. (it may just ake another 15-20 years lol)

Originally posted by camo
i hate to bring it up but i would be willing to wager that the new rubicon jeep is more capable off roader than any of the old school rigs.

don't get me wrong i love old iron but the new rubicon heep is pretty well set up.


yep ill agree with that too..... wouldnt buy one, but agree....

Originally posted by 82FB



Then you're not only a newbie, but a dumb newbie too.:) but i won't get into that fight now...

thank you sir, we all are allowed to hold our own opinions, and btw, I own all solid axle trucks, so I'm a happy hypocrite :flipoff2:

Unless there is a radical change in government-imposed safety and fuel-consumption standards, you will *NEVER* see real 4x4's sold new again. Not only that, but the litigious society we live in has virtually eliminated that possibility. With the dumbing of our society, you have morons driving SUV's to the ice cream store like they were Porsches, and when they come out of the comma they sue the automaker, the state government, the federal government, Ben *and Jerry. The result? We all end up paying for it.

At least 90% of American consumers aren't interested in transfer-cases, frames, solid axles and/or rugged construction, they want cushy rides, multiple cupholders, enough Connolly leather to upholster a theater, and the *looks* of a rugged 4x4. As long as they continue to prefer this and pay handsomely for this, the automakers will continue to offer them what they want. Do you honestly see Americans going back? It's not going to happen...

Originally posted by Daniel
Brand new you can buy a ford F350 single cab long box 4X4 that is pretty beefy drivetrain...and wait till the new mass of minideisels hits the market... Aluminum, 4 cylinder, super crawlers for all you rock guys..... the future will not have scouts and 1/2 ton solid axles but watch for the excitement of technology to our sport, CTIS, 4 wheel steer, and traction control... pretty cool to me.........

I agree with all the above, but where ARE the little diesels??? I've been waiting for a LONG while.
Charlie

Not only do we have the FEDs and their BS but it's also the cost for the auto manufacturers that holds us down. In order for Ford to re-release the Bronco they would have to re-gear their whole factory to put out these older model vehicles again. And why would they want to do that? They couldn't sell for as much as the vehicles they sell now and even if they could; the quantity of them that they would sell would be do few that doesn't make it cost effective for them to consider retrofitting a factory to produce the old iron. sadly, it all comes down to money. :(

Originally posted by 1uglyranger


Elect Libertarians??? Who do you think passed all these stupid laws and requirements in the first place??

I think that you have Libertarians confused with someone else. :rolleyes: Hayraker did a pretty good job of clearing up the confusion, but if you are over 18 please check out http://www.libertarian.org/ and vote Libertarian in your next election!

A huge part of the problem is the profit margin on a fully equipped vehicle. A base model holds much less profit than one with all the fancy googly wooglies. The start of this was back quite a few years when manufacturers started with options "packages" rather than an options list. Options lists allowed you to order only what you wanted for the price you were willing to pay. Options packages force you to pay for options that you might not necessarily want in order to get the one or two that you do.

Another thing is that marketing sucked people who weren't truck buyers into buying SUVs and pickup trucks. When these people complained that their truck rode like a truck the manufacturers engineered the truck out of it. Unfortunately that leaves us with too many carified trucks that can no longer do the job.

A perfect example is General Motors. General Motors no longer builds a 4wd truck that is capable of doing what their old trucks used to do. Take a good look at their new fullsize trucks and tell me how long you think it would last as a forestry truck. Some manufacturers seem to have forgotten that trucks are needed for more than the daily commute.

Funny the Jeep Rubicon should come up.. Here "Jeep" comes out with a vehicle with "us" in mind..(offroad enthuziasts). And in the next 5 links (cause 4 people don't know how to search). Just as many people bashing it as they are defending it. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30364&highlight=jeep+rubicon
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threaid=26784&highlight=jeep+rubicon
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23052&highlight=jeep+rubicon
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24037&highlight=jeep+rubicon
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19946&highlight=jeep+rubicon
If there were other companies with this intuition, to compete, it would drive the prices down, and we may see some cool stuff come out in the future too. If we bitch about it when someone does stick there foot in that door, we better not complain when 20 years down the road we don't have shit to build off of.

Point two: Maybe more companies will come out with "trail only" rock buggies (like Avalanche), to compete with prices and make them as common as sand rails using "dime a dozen" GM parts like the sand rails "dime a dozen" VW parts.
Shaggy

I am impressed as hell that Jeep stepped up to the plate with the Rubicon. The best offroad performance of any civilian Jeep ever offered with great on road manners, great fuel economy and clean emmisions to boot. I hope its success wil be noted by other auto makers and duplicated. How about a stripped down, straight axle, Land Cruiser for the US market?