I need more Traction, what should I do?

[cjhunter]

I have a 79 CJ5, that is in the process of being built to my liking.

So far I have lifted a bit, and slapped a set of 33x12.50 MT/Rs.
In the near furure I plan on swaping in a 360 out of a cherokee that I have laying around. So that should give me some power to turn those tires.

Here is what I want to do, please let me know keeping in mind that I am on a limited budget and want to keep the jeep a fairly reliable and streetable vehicle that is good off road. (rocks, mud and sand) :

I have the AMC 20 in the rear with a trac lock differential. I want to put some type of traction device in the jeep. I was thinking a lock right in the rear, until I found that they dont make a lock right for the trac lock carrier. I also was thinking of getting one piece shafts for the AMC, because of the torque the 360 will produce. Also, I liked the lock right because it is cheaper then a detroit and I can install it my self with out paying any one.

Then I was thinking maybe a front locker? but I like to play in the mud, which involves slippery muddy steep roads, that I still want to be able to turn on and I am not sure If I will be able to with a locker?

I then thought maybe just replace the carrier in the 20 with an open diff carrier then add a lock right and 1 piece shafts. The only problem with this is I dont know much about differential, and seting gears up properly. I am trying to keep the costs down, how much would a shop charge me to do this? Just for labor?

Any other ideas? Myabe an axle swap to replace the 20, that would do away with the 1 piece shafts, i think. With an axle swap I am worried about the price and finding a set up with the same gear ratio, what about the brakes?, any Ideas for a canidate vehicle? I could put a locker in this axle? Any ideas on cost of this?
I dont need a Dana 60 or anything like that, I dont do rocks very often, I am worried about the stock axle shafts in the 20 for now?

I am just looking for ideas?
Please let me know what you think

thanks
tony

:usa:

[Fullreversal]

Detroit and one piece shafts... brace your housing too

[cjhunter]

thanks
I got a few questions for you.

how much on average will it cost me to get the detroit installed?

What brand 1 piece shafts do you recomend?

Can you explain bracing the axle?

------------
ALso on the 80 cherokee I have for a parts vehicle, their is a AMC 20 HD, I think this axle has stonger axle shaft and housing. Any ideas on this, Can I cut down the shafts and use them? what about the housing, can it be cut down and used?
I dont want to use the entire axle because it is a 6 lug, and I dont know about the gears.

give me any ideas,

thanks for the reply
Tony

[4BANGERYJ]

I second the Detroit. Way better than a Lock right. I would call some rearend shops to get prices but your looking at least $250 labor for a locker install. Bracing=some kind of axle truss. Good Luck.:D

[doctor_G]

Originally posted by cjhunter

What brand 1 piece shafts do you recomend?


Moser

[I Lean]

Use the AMC 20 out of the Cherokee. It's wider and stronger than your CJ AMC 20. If you can, use the front axle from the same rig--ditch your D30 for the D44 in the Cherokee. I'm not sure on the desirable years for the axle swaps, since some SJ's had driver's side diffs, some had passenger side, and some had vacuum disconnect crap.

[Archie_G]

D44 out of a Scout. Don't know where you are, but up here, they are less than $100 and its easy to find one that matches the stock gearing in the front (avoides regearing costs). Then, since your looking for cheap, I'd just weld the spider gears to the carrier.

Can't get much easer or cheaper than that :D

[twistedspline]

I wouldent spend to much money on the 20 unless you get the thicker tube cheorkee version. There not the greatest axle. I run one and I have it full floated with the warn kit but im just waiting for it to go so I can upgrade to a wider and stronger axle.

[cjhunter]

I dont want to use the entire axle out of the cherokee because it is a 6 lug axle. I have haerd the weaknesses with the CJ amc 20 are the shafts and the tubes, which are stronger on the AMC 20 HD in the cherokee, so I thought a swap would be good?

Any ideas on how to do this?

Are these shafts strong enough? could I just get them cut down and use them instead of buying MOSER shafts?

thnaks
tony

[aaronlosey]

cjhunter, doesn't sound like you need a new axle, and since your on such a tight budget, why not just stick a lockrite in the front, keeping your limited slip in the rear for the time being. you could easily install the moser one piece shafts yourself, and all will be happy. as for a front locker in the mud, i wouldn't leave the house without one.

i would say keeping these axles would be just fine even with the 360 because you won't be doing anything extreme, and your in a light cj-5.

my one big concern though, if your stock axles are narrow track, just unbolt them and throw them away fast. take the entire drive train out of the cherry in one piece and slide it into the cj-5. then take the axles from under the cherry and work with those. mind that front swaps get costly because of steering.

[cjhunter]

Do any of you run a front locker on slippery muddy roads? Is it difficult to trun? I dont have the advantage of a twin stick. I am worried because I have been told it is impossible to turn??

As far as the drive train swap out of the cherokee, I am goint to use the 360, it is an auto tranny, which I dont like in a jeep, and the tranny is shot, the transfercase is also not to great. I think the axles are fine. I was thinking of using the rear, or using parts of it to beef up my rear axle? I dont know if it is narrow track or wide tack, and I dont know what my CJ is either, it seems like a narrow track though. I would like a bit widerstance on the CJ, for stability. Spinning hookers in the mud gets kind of scary in a tall narrow vehicle. As for the front axle, it is a Dana 44 but the differential is on the wrong side. I dont know, can that be modified to work? I think finding a dana 44 from a scout would be a better idea.

I think I get 1 piece shafts for my AMC 20, maybe truss the axle tubes, and stick with the trac lock for know. I f I ever get the guts to try to set up gear or do a gear swap, I may switch to the open carrier and a lock right later, or maybe a detroit if I get a better job.

I cant decide if I should slap a lock right in the front of if I should wait and try to find a dana 44, then lock that up? I probably will go with the lock right in the 30. Any opionins on that???


thanks for the replies so far.

Last question Are the axle shafts in the model 20 HD substantialy stronger then the shafts in the CJ amc 20? If so could I just get them cut to size and use them on the CJ?

As far as the axle tube, what if I didn't cut it or the axle shaft and put them both on the AMC 20 in the CJ, which I think would make it a bit wider? What do you think about this

thanks agian
Tony

[WillyPete]

vac disconnect was only in the front axles (dana 44s) from 83-84 (why would you want vacuum disconnect in the rear? :flipoff2: )

an 80 AMC20 out of a cherokee probably has 3.54s. options are 3.08, 3.31, and 4.10. but most likely it has 3.54s

with 33s and a mildly built 360 (less than 280 horse, less than 350 ft lbs) i doubt you'll kill even a CJ amc20. and if you do... just find a D44 to replace it.

[cjhunter]

Willypete,

Thanks I think I will just stick with the 20 in the rear, when It breaks I may go with new front and rear axles that are a bit wider.


What about a lock right in the front? I have heard that they dont unlock and make it hard as hell to turn? What do you think?

What about a twin stick for a dana 20? How much would one of these run me and how hard are they to install.

thansk for all the help
tony

[CJ-Jeeper]

Your CJ is a narrow track. The Cherokee axles would be about 8" wider if they are narrow track. The best way to go is use the Chero rear you have. Then find a front 44 from a '70's Chero or Waggy with the same ratio. You should be able to get one for $200. Then get a set of cheap used 6lug wheels for $100. You have much stonger axles front & rear for about what you would have spent on a 1-piece kit for your rear. Then do whatever you decide on for traction.

[blueray36]

Just curious, why would u guys pick moser over superior axle & gear shafts for the amc 20???

Also on the Scout 44, their is only one problem with scout front axles they have a 0 deg caster. That can be a problem, for handling and towing. But the 0 degree caster angle is a fairly easy fix. Don't let that stop you. Or you could go with a waggy 44 with a 4 degree of caster either or but the waggy has the 6 lug pattern, but can be changed to five by either redrilling the hubs and rotors or putting chevy spindals and ford hubs and rotors on it. the nice thing about the wag fronts is they have the internally splined hubs.

good luck on whatever you choose.

[CJ-Jeeper]

I would'nt have any preferance between Moser or Superior, or a few ater brands for that matter. I've been running Superiors for 2 years w/ 35 x 14.5's & 102:1 & no problems.
I would'nt call the Scout castor fix easy, but it's not that hard if you have all the right tools.

[cjhunter]

CJ jeeper-

If I was to do what you said and use the cherokee rear axle, then find a dana 44 for the front. How wide would my axles be. Did you say 8 inches, 4 inches wider on each side seems fairly wide. It seems that my tires would not stiff into the fenders, instead just munch hte sheet metal fenders? What do you think?

Is the AMC 20 HD out of the cherokee comparably as strong as the CJ AMC 20 if I were to add 1 piece shafts? If not would it be close, or strong enough to stand up to a stock 360?

thanks
Tony

[CannonBall]

You'll be able to turn in the mud, I'm locked up front with a lock right and I love every minute of it!
-Nate

[blueray36]

Originally posted by CJ-Jeeper
I would'nt have any preferance between Moser or Superior, or a few ater brands for that matter.

Just checkin was all, im about to run a locker in the back but i wanted to put the one piece in at the same time before i started to run 35 x 14.50's. My buddy had told me that something about moser doesnt meet up to the quality of supeiror is all. i guess he must have been saying it because superior heat treats their alloy shafts? Ill also keep to myself to what is easy now that i think about it ur right.

[xBabyJesus]

Use the Cherokee rear axle FOR SURE. Don't worry about the width, you'll love it wider. Don't worry about the bolt pattern, plain steel wheels are dirt cheap NEW and even cheaper used.
Pick up front & Rear lockrights, and wheel the piss out of it.

-J

[cjhunter]

If I were to use the rear cherokee axle and the front CJ axle, what am I going to do about a spare tire? I cant very well carry two?

I am trying to decide wether to just go with a lock right in the front for now, then put in one piece shafts when the stock ones give out, maybe lock up the rear at the same time.

Or, find a dana 44 six lug wide track axle for the front, and use the chero rear axle. Then find lockers for those.

I dont know what I will do, probably the first because it seems simpler and I dont do much rock crawling so I dont think I will out do my axles.

Does my AMC 20 HD have 1 piece shafts in it? Could I get these cut down and install them in my CJ axle? How much would it cost to cut them down?


thanks
tony

[mackddy6]

Being a newby, I'm surprised at you all! You should all have caught on to the fact that his rear in the waggy could be an offset dif., if the x-case is a quadratrac. If that is the case, he needs to use either the same x-case, or a model 18 case to use it. :flipoff2: Cmon guys...I'm 18 and I know this. What gives?:flipoff2:

[cjhunter]

The rear axle is not an off set and the cherokee is not a quadratrac, no one mentioned that because I didn't say it was a quadratrac, do you really think I would even mention switching an off set rear end into my CJ, not a chance.

Good try at making someone look a fool.

thanks everyone else
Tony

[CJ-Jeeper]

Even if you put 1-peice shafts in the CJ20 it won't be as be as strong as the HD, because the tubes are weaker. The HD version already has good shafts & yes you could send them to Dutchman and have them shortened for $85. Then you also have to get them redrilled to 5 x 5.5", or you will need 2 spares & 3 new wheels. In my opinion, you would be better off spending that money on a front D44. Then you have axles worth upgrading. Then again, if you don't plan on going bigger than 33's, your first optoin will probably be fine. If you put a locker in the CJ axle, you could always swap it to the HD axle if you decide to go that route.

[cjhunter]

CJ jeeper-

You say I could get it shortened to CJ dinensions and resplined for $85? And I could get it drilled to 5 lug? How much would that cost me?

I have trac lock in the CJ so I can"t do any "lunch box" lockers( they wont work with the trac lock carrier), well I cant do a lock right which is the only one I can afford. I dont want to throw mass amount of money at a 20.

But if I could get the 20 HD shortened and resplined for 85, then get it changed to 5 lug, all that for much less then a set of one piece axles, then slap a lock right in it and be good to go. I dont plan on going bigger then 33s any time soon, so that isn't an isue.

Where is Dutchman located and how are axles shipped to them. Are just the shafts and housing sent, or the entire thing? How much do you think it would cost me to send my axle to dutchman, I am in Northern California, 95503.

Thanks that sounds like the best idea yet.
Tony

[mackddy6]

now whats so wrong with swapping an offset dif. into a CJ? Teach me....I'm listening

[Steve N]

I have to agree with Aaron. put a lock right or similar in the front, then just wheel it. When the rear axles give at the hub replace them. You can truss a CJ 20 for cheap, plus as most of us on this sight forget you don't care about clearance in mud/ mild trail use so buy a used Confer style truss. I bet someone would trade you some :beer: for one.

I have the same Cherokee axle I've been trying to get my pick n' pull 1/2 off $ back out of for a while. $90 after all the "A hole fees" I had a J series I was going to use it in. The axle shaft is not alloy, nor is it technically one piece. (swedged 2 piece) Yes it's stronger than a CJ shaft, but it's not anywhere near as strong as an alloy one piece pair. Use what you have.

Remember you said budget, and from the sound of it you meant it.

[cjhunter]

That sounds like what I will do, but when the rear gives...

Do you think I should get the 1 piece shafts or use the chero axle. The chero axle I could probably get shortened and changed to 5 lug and slap a lock right in that rear end and install it for alot cheaper then the 1 piece shafts and a open carrier and a lock rite.

thanks you all gave me something to think about.

Tony

[hencini]

About 4 different people have said it... Based on everything you've said, go with the lock-rite up front... You don't ever have to worry about it on the road if you've got locking hubs... Just unlock and the locker is inactive... Plus, with the trac-loc in the back, you'll be in business... Yeah, it's not the toughest locker on the planet, but you can install it in an afternoon, it's cheap cheap cheap, and it sounds like it will be fine for what you want... Just don't blow up your 20 :D