I'd like to find a steering ram with heims on it, I'm looking for something similar to the AGR rockram but much beefier. I see them on a bunch of competition rigs but can't find any in the catalogs I look through.

Thanks alot for any help,

CJ

if you mean fully hydraulic steering for your 2.5 ton rockwells - this is not something you can buy off the shelf.

you have to order all the components from a hydraulic systems supplier, but you should know what to order.
first, you will have to decide between single or dual piston systems and you'll have to decide if you also want rear steering.

if i guessed right and you meant fully hydraulic, i would be able to assist you naming the components & sizes.

let me know if you need anything.

the Frog
no. 67 to TTC 2002 http://www.thefrog.alloffroad.com (www.thefrog.alloffroad.com)

Thanks man. Yes, this is full hydraulic for my rockwells. I'm not looking to add rear steering right now, but it's something I'd like to play with down the road. I'd like to use a regular steering pump to power the setup and I want to get that Ross self-centering orbital valve from wagoner machine shop.

I think I need a 10" ram, I assume in a 2" bore. I am running my tie rod underneath the knuckle and would like to put the ram on top. Then just have one bolt running through both. All the clevis mounts on the rams I see really don't look like they would work good for me.

On the rockwells there is a whole lot of kingpin inclination so the point where the ram/tie rod will bolt to the knuckle moves up and down a bit. In other words, the spot is a bit higher than ride height turned all the way right and a bit lower turned all the way left.

Avalanche said I could use some type of bushing but I don't want the slop associated with it. It seems this would be a common problem with this stuff...maybe I'm being too paranoid?

Thanks,
CJ

hey there cj,

no you are not being paranoic, and you should use heims , not bushings. but first thing's first:-

before you do anything, decide if you want a single piston(where pushing is strong but pulling is weaker) or a dual piston with two rams, one at each side. the dual system is better because it pulls & pushes with the same strength and because with this system you simply do'nt need a tie rod! the dual piston rams are attached to the two wheels and enable you not to use a tie rod, if you choose not to.

you can use your stock oil pump but if you also have a hydraulic brake booster(and i sure hope you do), then you must have an oil cooler for the joint system.

a 2" bore would be quite small. i'd go for a bigger one. in the Frog i have 2" in the front steering and 3" for the rear, because i found out that i need a bigger size with those 44" Boggers. i suggest that you go straight to a 3" .

in order to know what size of piston you need, you will have to perform a very simple mesurement, but first make up your mind about the system you want.

once you did, it will be possible to determine the components & sizes. when you make the decision you should take into account that the dual system is more expensive.
tell me which way it's gonna be and we will go on.

take it easy

Frog



:smokin:

I can help you figure out your steering and get you anything that you will need for hydraulic steering.
I already have a source for double ended cylinders with spherical rod ends as well.

Charlynn load sensing rotary valve $300.
Arlington 2.25" bore 8" stroke(4" from center to lock) double ended ram with foot mounts, and spherical rod ends $300.
And a mating steering column with standard 36 tooth mating surface and a pinch nut(all standard type stuff) $70 . The column is a solid shaft with about a 2" housing around it. It bolts securely to the steering valve with 4 bolts. Columns can be ordered in almost any legth to occomodate your circumstances.

Prices do not include shipping.

This combination of ram and valve will give you 4 turns lock to lock(or 2 turns center to lock), and with the average power steering pump(1.5 gpm @ 1500 psi) will turn from center to lock in ~ 2 seconds if you turn the wheel that fast. I can also get valves with different displacement to get you close to whatever steering specs you want.

I can put together a kit with hoses fittings and all,. If you want a whole kit I can price it that way. I do have a supplier where I can get heavy duty hydraulic lines and fittings at good prices.
I can also get awesome engine driven pumps to power your steering or anything else.

If there is a spec that you would like to change just let me know the numbers you are looking for, and I will see what is available.
If you are interested in a whole kit with ram , valve, and hoses then I am going to need to know what length hoses you need. And what type of fittings your steering pump has. I will get a quote on whatever you need and get back to you.

Let me know if you are interested.

Sean

frog,
Well I think I figured out the ram issue. I went and got a 2"x10" ram today. It is a prince model. The clevis mounted on the end of the piston threads on, so I can replace that with a female heim joint once I figure out the threads, that should work fine....I'm gonna mess with it tonight, if I think it won't work I can return it.

You've got me worried on the bore issue. Everyone has told me 2" is enough, I need 10" travel for my rockwell. Oh, and I decided to only use one ram for simplicity, although that might change as I get into it. I've spoken with a few people who said the difference between one ram and two isn't as dramatic as thought to be. I originally wanted the wheel to turn equal times left or right but the difference isn't as much as I thought. I don't mind running a tie rod....I also dont want to use a double ended ram.

What do you think?

Station,
Thanks for the offer, I think I've got it covered. Im just using a stock GM pump with that WMS valve, and I'm gonna make my own hoses. I might need your help mating the valve up to the steering shaft(actually it is just 3/4" tubing).

Thanks,
CJ

A 2" ram will work fine. If anything 2.5" is probably the maximum bore that you would want for our purposes. Anything bigger is just wasting space, and sucking allot of juice.
The only reason to use a 3" bore ram is to compensate for incorrectly matched parts ahead of it.


Let me know if I can help,
Sean

Ok great, as long as I can mount it with one heim so it doesn't bind I'll be set.

Do you know anything about those Ross self-centering valves WMS sells? What is the term for that in the hydraulic industry. I assume it just lets the ram act two way and lets the tire move the ram instead of being completely rigid only getting input from the pump/wheel. Does Char-Lynn offer a similar product?

Also, what do you have as a steering valve for the rear? I was thinking of putting another steering pump on the motor so that I wouldn't be over taxing the one for the front. I hear you can't really use them both at the same time...I'd like to have a lever on the dash or something to control the rear tires eventually.

CJ

In respnse to some of your questions....

I have been trying to figure out what setup is best for rear steer. Most people go with a seperate 12V electric pump and a stick control valve. I am not too into that setup, as I want (on my Jeep) to have both front and rear wheels steer either in the same or opposite directions at the same time just from the input from the steering wheel. Sadly a setup like this requires proximity sensors at the axles, and individual computer controlled electric powered hydraulic motors to control it. This setup is VERY expensive.

The actual description for a "self centering" rotary valve is a Load Sensing(LS refers to the feedback you feel at the control) Arbitrol(Is the actual type of valve that we call "rotary" valves) valve.

Yes the Charlynn that I quoted for $300 is a load sensing arbitrol. I can also get DanFoss or any other brand that you might want.

A non non load sensing(LS from now on) valve doesn't recognise input at the ram end of the steering system. With some steering valves, when you turn the steering all the way to lock and you continue to apply pressure you won't feel any aditional pressure at the steering wheel. But the engine and pump do see that aditional pressure, and if you continue to apply steering input, the engine will just die trying to push the pump.
On other non-LS systems, to prevent the above condition, there is a built in relief. If a high enough pressure condition is present then it bypasses, or just lets the steering wheel spin without actually steering the wheels.

I would continue, but work calls... I will be back later.

Hope this helps some,

Sean

We call them orbit or orbitrol valves. I too would like to hear more about the "self centering" valves I have seen mentioned on this board, as I can't see how it would work.

I've seen solonoid valves used for rear steer with a toggle switch on the dash, but you need to create a system to let you know when you are centered.

Btw...You can also adjust the amount of travel you need by changing the ratio at the steering arm, that would get rid of some of the vertical movement if you tightened up the ratio.

well CJ, it seems you have got your equipment allready. anyway,
use two heims on both ends.

about rear steering - i can only suggest the setup i have, which is simple, safe and relatively inexpensive.
i have two separate systems: one for the front steering + brake booster, using the stock oil pump. the second is the same as the front one with a stick controlled selector using a second oil pump
which i mounted instead of the a/c, on the a/c bracket.

this way you control front steering with the steering wheel and the rear steering with the stick controled selector.

i can steer all 4 wheels to the same direction and if i want to, steer the front ones to one direction and the rear ones to the opposit direction.
if i were in your shoes right now i'd go for four wheel steer.
it seems you have all the very profesional assistance from Sean
who knows the U.S. market very well.
anyways good luck and i hope i've helped a bit. still ready & willing
to answer any question.

Frog

Danfoss has the formulas for sizing the steering components in their product catalog under general information.
You can add rod-ends to any welded cylinder by welding a threaded sleeve to the end cap and another to the rod. I think the tie rod cyls have cast endcaps, so it might not be as strong.
You want to get the cylinder to stop at the same time as your knuckles so you don't tear things apart. You can get inside the cylinder and fab some stops and then fine tune at the knucks... this is very important if you plan on abusing things.

http://www.sauer-danfoss.com/Products/index.html

Originally posted by Station
In respnse to some of your questions....

The actual description for a "self centering" rotary valve is a Load Sensing(LS refers to the feedback you feel at the control) Arbitrol(Is the actual type of valve that we call "rotary" valves) valve.

Yes the Charlynn that I quoted for $300 is a load sensing arbitrol. I can also get DanFoss or any other brand that you might want.

Sean

a load sensing valve is actually one with a port for a pressure switch. they are used with electric pump applications, where you only have the pump run when steering. When you start to steer it trips the pressure switch, and starts the pump, when you quit steering it shuts the pump off.

The "self centering" valves are actually called a "load reacting" valve in that they will react to the load of offcenter wheels, and allow the force of the wheels to recenter them...

hi CJ & everybody,

i made some cheking on the one thing we disagreed about = the bore.

well, as amatter of fact, a lot depends on what you do with the vehicle. if you use it for "normal" offroading, slow trails, rockcrawling on weekends etc., the 2" bore will probably be fine.

but, if you're in to more agressive or demanding activity like you see in sport events, competitions and such, it certainly would be on the edge. in many occasions you'll find yourself in a tight spot with no time to lose or in a difficult point of the obstacle course, when you have to work real fast, and this, i think, is the true test and the right way to look at the steering ability.

for example, look at my websitehttp://www.thefrog.alloffroad.com (http://) at the photo page. you can see there on the left row towards the end of the page, the frog in a hard spot trying to turn left at the end of a 100 feet very steep slope. the vehicle lost almost completely it's steering ability at that specific point, had to manuver back and forth and lost valuable time & points in that event. THAT WHAT MATTERS!

i know that if you oversize the hydro steering components, you may have almost absolute steering ability which might cause breakage or other damage, but the ability to steer at all times is more important to me. you should just be careful and minded to the specific situation.

moreover, when talking rear steer the system's stability and the ability to keep rear wheels centered when you want them centered, is even more important.

so after all i say bigger bore, and if not 3" so be it not
less than 2.5". did i convince you?

BTW-what do you think of my setup of two independent systems, both engine driven through two oil pumps?

take it easy:cool:

frog:beer:

Frog, good info. I definately like the idea of two separate systems for front and rear. I have an idea on keeping the wheels centered when not wheeling, how well does the ram keep things centered with just the switch in neutral?

Does anyone else feel the 2" isn't quite as adaquete? Everyone I talk to says the 2x8" ram is perfect, I haven't heard of anyone complaining. The 2.5 bore would slow the system down wouldn't it, which might be a good thing considering people saying that most setups will go faster than you can turn the wheel. I definately want to be able to steer 100% of the time with minimal effort, but don't want too much power that I'm starting to break stuff.

I have a 1" bore x 1.25" thread heim joint on my shelf. I think I'm gonna have the clevis mount on the fixed end of the cylinder milled out a little bit so the heim will fit in there, then put a female heim on the piston, that'd work good.

CJ

Originally posted by CrazyHorse


a load sensing valve is actually one with a port for a pressure switch. they are used with electric pump applications, where you only have the pump run when steering. When you start to steer it trips the pressure switch, and starts the pump, when you quit steering it shuts the pump off.

The "self centering" valves are actually called a "load reacting" valve in that they will react to the load of offcenter wheels, and allow the force of the wheels to recenter them...

Hey Crazy, LS valves do not require electric pumps. I have several diagrams on how to set them up from Charlynn and Danfoss, both showing setups hooked to an engine driven pump.


Sean

A load sensing steering valve has a additional port to operate a priority valve. The priority valve splits the output from the pump into steering needs and other hydraulic needs...giving steering the priority whenever the wheels are turned.

CrazyHorse called it, Reactive or Non-Reactve...this is return to center aspect... A reactive steering valve will allow the road wheels to turn the valve (strg. wheel.), and non reactive will hold the road wheels in place until the operator turns the strg. wheel. I havent found the actual reactive/non reactive portion of the valve to determine if the ability to return to center is adjustable.

There is a ton of info on the fanfoss site

CJ,

i do'nt have any complicated(and therefore expensive) centering system. i have to center the wheels myself and then the ram holds the wheels firmly in position. this is one of the reasons to have a stout big bore cylinder - it holds the wheels in place even when hit by a rock or such.

about the heims - you're right about that. just rmember that you can mount the cylinder in one of two ways: the fixed end on the axle and the piston's side on the wheel or the fixed end on the wheel and the piston end(with the female heim) on the axle. it depends on what is more convenient and how you can best protect the pressure hoses and the fittings on the cylinder.

another thing - if you use a control lever for the selector, make an extension to the lever so it'll be easier and much more accurate in operating.

when do you expect to finish that TJ of yours? or is it too much fun to work on then to ride it?:flipoff2:

the frog