Welcome to the next installment of the

Topic of the Week

The subject for the week is rear steering, or How do you swing the ass end around?

Some suggested points of discussion:
- axle choice
- ram driven vs drag link
- centering the tires
- controls

I use the poor mans rear steer, which also allows me to stay within the requirements of most Modified competition classes.

Poor mans rear steer: Line locks to the rear brakes, and a disengageable rear driveline at the T case.
I use individual locks at each rear wheel, with a switch and indicator light for each side, on my shifter.
With a little practice they can be very helpfull.

Sorry thats all Ive got, the guys with the high tech hydraulic stuff will chime in with the cool stuff.

Hey H8,
How about line locks to the front , put it in 2 WD , break the tires loose and let it slide to line up with whatever direction your tires face?
Just another cheap option:D

Originally posted by Highlander
Hey H8,
How about line locks to the front , put it in 2 WD , break the tires loose and let it slide to line up with whatever direction your tires face?
Just another cheap option:D


I hate giving competetive secrets away, so Im gonna make you work for this one. I already do what you suggest with my current set up, without the addition of front locks.:D
think about it

Saw a infomertial last week. You could buy a new Chevy Truck.

Dont know about rear steer but Im gonna run cutting brakes out of a sand rail to my rear tires and twin stick my transfer case so I can slide my front end around with out moving to much....
I guess for the rear to move you could get a dual brak set up for the front and rear axle with a twin stick transfer case....turn the tires the direction you want to slide and let her rip......
I could just be :smokin: crack thoagh.

you can do what garth did with the 4xvideo.com jeep over here, just give it to cliff at avalanche with a small truck of money. :flipoff2: http://www.4xvideo.com/reports/lefthand/images/104-0470_IMG.jpg

unfortunately, you have to learn to incorporate the rear stear into your driving, which makes it like rubbing your head and patting your belly.

I have no experience with this stuff, but the CJ I'm building will have rear steer so please bear with my questions.

Why would you have to incorporate it into your driving all the time? It is my understanding that one of the benefits of full hydraulic steering is that there is absolutely no bumpsteer, the tires don't turn unless you turn the steering wheel (or lever, whatever the case may be)

It would seem that with the proper strength pump and ram that once you set the rear wheels straight that they'd stay that way until you wanted them to go elsewhere.

Also, those of you with full hydro rear steer setups, are you running a separate pump for the rear ram? If so, is it engine driven or electirc? Where did you get it/what did you get it from?

Like I said, I have no experience with hydraulic steering. If I'm misunderstanding any of this, please set me straight. Thanks in advance for your input.

Originally posted by Cajun
I have no experience with this stuff, but the CJ I'm building will have rear steer so please bear with my questions.

Why would you have to incorporate it into your driving all the time? It is my understanding that one of the benefits of full hydraulic steering is that there is absolutely no bumpsteer, the tires don't turn unless you turn the steering wheel (or lever, whatever the case may be)

I think what he means by this is that since the rear wheels turn independantly, you have potentially three ways of turning.
1. normal steering, with the rears straight
2. tight ass steering, with the fronts turned one way and the rears turned the other
3. crab walk, both turned the same direction

rear steering just gives you one more thing to think about.

haven't gotten to that point of needing rear-steer yet. But what I have been doing is pivoting the rocker around a rock, thus forcing the rear to swing around, of course there may be a time when there is no boulder to use, ie; a "V" or tight hairpin turn. Rear steer would sure be helpful there. I'll keep a check on this thread to learn more as I go. I have general idea of what is needed to complete this step, but still looking into particular parts, and various methods of control.:emb:

Originally posted by thenodnarb

I think what he means by this is that since the rear wheels turn independantly, you have potentially three ways of turning.
1. normal steering, with the rears straight
2. tight ass steering, with the fronts turned one way and the rears turned the other
3. crab walk, both turned the same direction

rear steering just gives you one more thing to think about.

Ohhhh, ok. I understand that. What I was thinking originally was that he was saying that the rear wheels had to be directed at all times. We're all on the same page now.

Hey, I was wandering how you control the rear stearing. I haven't been blessed with seeing a set-up that wasn't in the magazines. Do you use tractor style hydraulic levers or can you some how hook it into the front steering set-up?

Well i cant tell you how it works yet, since im still building my rig.
but for my dual front rockwells, I purchased a DC Hyd Pump (for like a snowplow unit or a hay spike) which comes w/ the controls
It wasnt too expensive(Around $300) Then went to John Deere got the 2X8 Ram (around $75). Cant wait to blow idiots minds coming at them crooked!!!!:rasta:





www.LWM.CC (http://)

I honestly see NO point in having rear steer unless you plan on competing... And even then, it's a waste of $$$ because you are charged too many points to use it. For example, Walker Evans has rear steer on his S10. But in the past few comps he's had it pinned. He mentioned that he is planning on getting rid of it in the near future.

As far as twin stick/cutting brakes go, they are the ticket for competitions. But I don't see any real world use for them in a trail rig. Just back up. :rolleyes:

Regarding rear steer, thanx Lance, for your input. Now that you're a big star (well you always have been), some of us followers have one less thing to worry about. Sure rear steer is cool as heck, but as you had pointed out, it is a point violator, and really not necessary.
And once again, CONGRATS TO YOUR VICTORY!!!:beer:

Originally posted by Lance
I honestly see NO point in having rear steer unless you plan on competing... And even then, it's a waste of $$$ because you are charged too many points to use it. For example, Walker Evans has rear steer on his S10. But in the past few comps he's had it pinned. He mentioned that he is planning on getting rid of it in the near future.

As far as twin stick/cutting brakes go, they are the ticket for competitions. But I don't see any real world use for them in a trail rig. Just back up. :rolleyes:

Oh, sure, keep the little guy down. :D

Here's my $0.00002 worth.

I've seen pictures of a lever actuated rear hydro steering setup -= both in a trail rig, as well as in a monster truck. Seemed very easy to operate, but didn't look like it had much more than a full left, straight, full right steering option.

As for hooking it all up into the steering wheel controls, you'd have some interesting, but probably not very complex (at the design level at least) valving. Sorta like a force articulation air bag setup where the front right is tied to the rear left, and vice versa. You'd probably want to have a valve to select from crabbing (fronts and rears turn the same way) vs tight steering (fronts turn opposite of rears) vs no rear steer.

And while I agree that for 99% of the wheelers out there, this is beyond what is necessary, it's a good academic exercise.

Don't get me wrong, the cool factor is there.... But Spending $4000 on something that is "cool" seems a little silly to me. :p

Anyhow, Welderboy has recently put rear steer on his truck. It currently uses an electric pump to power the rear steer. He uses a joystick, and can turn the rear wheels to any degree he wishes. The electric pump is noisy, and he is planning on swapping it and the saginaw pump for the front hydro for a real belt driven hydraulic pump like Don Robbins and tracy Jordan use to power all their tons of hydraulics.

Originally posted by Lance
Don't get me wrong, the cool factor is there.... But Spending $4000 on something that is "cool" seems a little silly to me. :p


Why $4000? Seems like it would just be another front axle and the same parts as hydraulic front steer? Plus some way to lock it I suppose. No need for it on my 80" wheelbase, but an interesting idea. The crab walk mode might be interesting for some of the slick uphills we have, but sounds scary. Rear steer is the only way you would get something longer than a jeep through most of the trails we use. (Not much for rocks, but lots of twisting trails in the trees and ravines.

Originally posted by oldjeep


Why $4000? Seems like it would just be another front axle and the same parts as hydraulic front steer? Plus some way to lock it I suppose. No need for it on my 80" wheelbase, but an interesting idea. The crab walk mode might be interesting for some of the slick uphills we have, but sounds scary. Rear steer is the only way you would get something longer than a jeep through most of the trails we use. (Not much for rocks, but lots of twisting trails in the trees and ravines.

What do you think a front D60, locked, and geared, with beefed up axle shaft and stub assemblies, custom steering arms, hydraulic pump, orbital valve, hydraulic lines, steering linkage, hydraulic ram, and all of the little things you dont think of, is gonna cost you?

Originally posted by H8monday


What do you think a front D60, locked, and geared, with beefed up axle shaft and stub assemblies, custom steering arms, hydraulic pump, orbital valve, hydraulic lines, steering linkage, hydraulic ram, and all of the little things you dont think of, is gonna cost you?

I guess 4K if you want it today. I'm too cheap to pay that kind of money for parts. Once the shafts are done, I'll have $500 total into my rear D60 - lincoln locked with disc brakes and 5.38 gears. That takes into account having sold the stock 35 spline c-clip shafts and gears.
Of course D60 prices are a lot lower here in MN since we don't have to remove them from the truck, the trucks just rust away leaving only the plow and the axles;) rears run $100 or less - I got 2 for $100. Fronts depend, I've seen low pinion D60's for $250. Although it's usually cheaper to buy the whole truck.

A Kid at school here had a FJ with rear steering. I was pretty cool. He used a front D60, IIRC, flipped it around with a full hydro setup. He had a floor mounted lever, between the seats, that could be spun in a circle to point the wheels where he wanted them to go. Worked pretty well.

Originally posted by H8monday



I hate giving competetive secrets away, so Im gonna make you work for this one. I already do what you suggest with my current set up, without the addition of front locks.:D
think about it

Uuhhhmm, at the risk of sounding stupid (but that never stopped me before :) ), I'm guessing engage the rear lock(s) without any pressure on the pedal, then stomp on the pedal to lock the front wheels. If I'm not mistaken, line locks work by locking whatever pressure is in the line that is locked at the time the line lock is engaged. This means that with no pressure, the lock would effectively stop pedal pressure from getting to the rear brakes......

good guess?? If so, this is starting to make me think of using line locks instead of the sand rail brakes I currently have sitting waiting to go in (about 1/2 way down my list of waiting projects) ..... I like the extra flexibility ..... hmmmmmm........ never thought of that .......

Originally posted by ChadLloyd


Uuhhhmm, at the risk of sounding stupid (but that never stopped me before :) ), I'm guessing engage the rear lock(s) without any pressure on the pedal, then stomp on the pedal to lock the front wheels. If I'm not mistaken, line locks work by locking whatever pressure is in the line that is locked at the time the line lock is engaged. This means that with no pressure, the lock would effectively stop pedal pressure from getting to the rear brakes......

good guess?? If so, this is starting to make me think of using line locks instead of the sand rail brakes I currently have sitting waiting to go in (about 1/2 way down my list of waiting projects) ..... I like the extra flexibility ..... hmmmmmm........ never thought of that .......

You just moved to the head of the class.
It works very well.

Originally posted by Lance
I honestly see NO point in having rear steer unless you plan on competing... And even then, it's a waste of $$$ because you are charged too many points to use it. For example, Walker Evans has rear steer on his S10. But in the past few comps he's had it pinned. He mentioned that he is planning on getting rid of it in the near future.

As far as twin stick/cutting brakes go, they are the ticket for competitions. But I don't see any real world use for them in a trail rig. Just back up. :rolleyes:


damnit, here i am agreeing with you again, :D rear steer is the last thing on my mind, cutting brakes..... now that has crossed my mind

Originally posted by H8monday


You just moved to the head of the class.
It works very well.
OK ..... anyone want to buy some sand rail brakes?


:)

Originally posted by Lance
I honestly see NO point in having rear steer unless you plan on competing... And even then, it's a waste of $$$ because you are charged too many points to use it. For example, Walker Evans has rear steer on his S10. But in the past few comps he's had it pinned. He mentioned that he is planning on getting rid of it in the near future.

As far as twin stick/cutting brakes go, they are the ticket for competitions. But I don't see any real world use for them in a trail rig. Just back up. :rolleyes:

I agree on everything but your last point. I HAVE been on trails where it really has been necessary - not because you could not back up, but because the number of multiple point turns becomes extremely tiring. On this trail, I used the obstacles (rocks, trees, stumps) themselves as my 'brakes', and my twin stick to pivot around and through them, and I can tell you it was a LOT easier than trying to steer through there in a more conventional fashion, and I was a lot less worn out than my fellow wheelers on the run.....

Originally posted by H8monday
I use the poor mans rear steer, which also allows me to stay within the requirements of most Modified competition classes.

Poor mans rear steer: Line locks to the rear brakes, and a disengageable rear driveline at the T case.
I use individual locks at each rear wheel, with a switch and indicator light for each side, on my shifter.
With a little practice they can be very helpfull.

Sorry thats all Ive got, the guys with the high tech hydraulic stuff will chime in with the cool stuff.

So (this might sound stupid) do you need to be able to disengage the rear driveline in order for the line locks to work for the rear steer? If you had a selectable locker (take your pick), couldn't you disengage the locker and line lock the tire that would be the pivot point? Disengaging the locker would allow the non-line locked tire to 'power' around the corner, wouldn't it? Am I missing something here? I'm trying to see how to do the line lock option without using an Atlas xfer.... Thanks, Bret

Originally posted by hubeid


So (this might sound stupid) do you need to be able to disengage the rear driveline in order for the line locks to work for the rear steer? If you had a selectable locker (take your pick), couldn't you disengage the locker and line lock the tire that would be the pivot point? Disengaging the locker would allow the non-line locked tire to 'power' around the corner, wouldn't it? Am I missing something here? I'm trying to see how to do the line lock option without using an Atlas xfer.... Thanks, Bret


That would probably work just fine.

Originally posted by H8monday



That would probably work just fine.

Cool. Thanks Jeff!

Originally posted by H8monday


You just moved to the head of the class.
It works very well.

What type of line lock are you using?
the only type I've ever used are the Mico lever locks, and they don't work like that.....not the one's I've used anyway...maybe they were modified.

They worked more like a check valve.....you could flop the lever up, and drive down the road, but if you touched the brake, they'd stick on......you could put on the brakes but they wouldn't release untill you flipped the lever back down.

A lot of folks in town had them on surplus pickup trucks bought from the local iron ore mine...used to mess with people by going around and flippin everyone's locks on.

Originally posted by ondarock


What type of line lock are you using?
the only type I've ever used are the Mico lever locks, and they don't work like that.....not the one's I've used anyway...maybe they were modified.

They worked more like a check valve.....you could flop the lever up, and drive down the road, but if you touched the brake, they'd stick on......you could put on the brakes but they wouldn't release untill you flipped the lever back down.

A lot of folks in town had them on surplus pickup trucks bought from the local iron ore mine...used to mess with people by going around and flippin everyone's locks on.

I run a Biondo on one side and a TCI on the other. They are both just electricaly actatuated hydraulic solonoids. Although they are designed to be used in one direction, they work well stopping flow in both directions.
The cheap electric line locks are not designed to be used as an E brake so dont have to have the valving that allows the use of the brakes in the event that you inadvertently flip the lever. In my case, I use on/off switches at my shifter with LED indicators to tell me if they are on or not.

h8: in your pic above what is the cute little (illegal looking) meter right in front of the trans shifter???!

I ordered 2 Biondos yesterday, and I'm going to mount them on the diff just like yours. I was going to mount my cutting brakes in the cab, then have dual lines going to the diff, but I like reducing the number of lines running all over the place.

Simple and effective, I like it.

Originally posted by Aggro
h8: in your pic above what is the cute little (illegal looking) meter right in front of the trans shifter???!


350 WATT Texas Star Heater,..errrrr I mean emergency communication Equiptment

It's all good, H8 has a HAM radio permit..............do you?...............H8? :D :D
I was going to go the cutting brake route this time, next time who knows, Two 2.5 front Rockwells...........Hmmm.

Rear steer just doesnt seem to make sense to me. It seems that it is just more stuff to break. For example: u-joints, tie rods, etc.

lance,

what kind of pump are those guys running, or can you provide a link or some kind of contact info

lance said the following
The electric pump is noisy, and he is planning on swapping it and the saginaw pump for the front hydro for a real belt driven hydraulic pump like Don Robbins and tracy Jordan use to power all their tons of hydraulics.

Originally posted by ChadLloyd
I ordered 2 Biondos yesterday, and I'm going to mount them on the diff just like yours. I was going to mount my cutting brakes in the cab, then have dual lines going to the diff, but I like reducing the number of lines running all over the place.

Simple and effective, I like it.


I have actually redone my previouse set up, at the axle.
I mounted the locks on the webs of the axle, rather than the mounting plate I fabbed earlier. Its a little less cluttered, and straighter runs on the hard lines.
Here is a pic, You can see the Biondo on the passenger side, and the TCI is on the left. They both seem to work about the same, but the Biondo is cheaper.

Originally posted by H8monday


I run a Biondo on one side and a TCI on the other. They are both just electricaly actatuated hydraulic solonoids. Although they are designed to be used in one direction, they work well stopping flow in both directions.
The cheap electric line locks are not designed to be used as an E brake so dont have to have the valving that allows the use of the brakes in the event that you inadvertently flip the lever. In my case, I use on/off switches at my shifter with LED indicators to tell me if they are on or not.


best place to get the biondo's? gonna set my rear up also.....

Originally posted by badassjeepguy



best place to get the biondo's? gonna set my rear up also.....

I ordered mine through summit.
You dont need all of the install kits and all.
Just get a (4) 1/4" or 1/8"(I cant remember) NPT (male) to 3/16 flare (female) adapters from NAPA, along with (4) 12" sections of 3/16 steel brake line. I use a flaring tool from harbor frieght so I can cut them to length and keep it less cluttered.
I run a fused power source to each swith on the shifter, then through the switch to the LED and to the solonoid.
I solder all connections and shrink wrap, and even silicone everything, the wires back there are very much in harms way, when you run through ice and snow, and mud or water.
I suggest color code the wires so if you get a short somewhere you can trouble shoot it easier. I lost one durring a snow run this year, that ice is like razor blades when it gets packed up.

You guys have it all wrong...all you have to do is get your friend with the biggest beer gut and have him kick the crap out of the rear wheels!

Worked at Paragon anyway :p

I have been looking into the line locks also. I had planned on using two of them like H8 does. When I went to Farmington for the RCAA event, I was watching the competitors. It seems that many use only one lock, which locked both wheels and pivoted, dragging the outside wheel. It seemed pretty effective.

H8 will you try something for us? Next time you go out, try and pivot with one wheel locked. Then try it again with both and see if there is any difference in how quickly you pivot. Maybe try different surfaces also. ( not asking for much I know:flipoff2: )

I would think that on hard surfaces it would be beneficial to have only one wheel locked while on softer terrain there would not be much difference. If there is minimal difference it will save the cost of a line lock!

Thanks

HAH! I do the FLINTSTONE THANG! I put my feet through the floor to the ground, reach down the side of my rig, grab on, pick it up, and swing that puppy around.:flipoff2: :D

I would think that only locking up the rear inner wheel would create a "pivot point" to swing your ass around tighter, Maybe?

I'm thinking of stealing the knuckles (brakes and all) of a cheap front 60 to put on my rear 60 that has bigger drums than a big rig. The rear was 200, and the donner front is 500. I have to shorten the rear anyway. So it's either sleeve it and put the huge drums on or throw knuckles on and buy a ram. I'll need new axles either way. So the cost factor doesn't seem to really affect my build that much. Am I just lost or what?

a friend of mine had rear steer on his old buggy. he used a front D60 and turned it around. yes it ran on the back side of the gears but it never hurt it any. he used a 12 volt eletric pump that was actuated by switches at the drivers seat. 1 switch ran the self center feature(you could turn it off and on) and the other switch turned the wheels. he used a monster truck self centering set-up. so basically he could turn the wheels to any direction and then they would come back to center or turn of the self center and they would stop when the switch was released.