I had a rear Tera60R built by Redline offroad (Keith Warren) in july and no surprise I am having troubles with it. I moved from Oregon to Rhode Island in September and when I had been here a month I noticed that my left axle seal was leaking (badly). So I went to a local garage on a referal by a local 4x4 shop. They had no idea what a Tera60R was but had worked on many rearends. I had no idea what seals keith put in so I contacted Teraflex and talked with Rand in R&D and he helped us figure it out.

Teraflex customer service is beyond unbelievable!!!!

Rand and the guys tore one they had built apart to find the info out for me!

Anyway the local garage pressed in new stuff. They said they couldn't figure out why it was leaking cuz the old seal looked great.?
Now last week I took a trip to New york, got back and noticed oil or something on my driverside mud flap, crawled under immediatly to find a nice under coating of 80/90 wt the seal was leaking again! Looked across at pass. side and discovered small drip running down. Both sides leaking!! Fawk
The Tera I had built is semi-float and has ford 9" ends on it and runs the big ford bearings (A-20)
I talked to Rand at Tera and he said some people have had similar prob and put in a inner seal behind the bearing and just packed the bearing. He said on one that he has he put a grease fitting to grease the bearing.
I am not sure if mine has room for that inner seal. Anyone else have one of these Tera's built by Redline and have similar probs? Or know if there is room for an inner seal?
If there is no room for an inner seal can I RVT the flange so it won't leak?


Does anyone on the East coast know good shop in the New England area that is not in the dark when it comes to real 4x4's not just show and shine?

I am taking my rig in to these guys Wed. night and they are working on it Thurs. I am having Rand call them before he goes to Moab on thurs to talk to them. And hopefully help them out, they think that the reason it keeps leaking is because the carrier is upside down and there is too much fluid in it. Designed wrong and could be done better. BS!!

Any info would be awsome
1. ideas on how to fix leaks permanently
2. if inner seal w/ grease fitting or RVT will work
3. people having similar probs, or Redline built axle info on accepting inner seals
4. New England 4x4 shop with knowledge

Thanx in advance

Oh shameless plug for Teraflex customer support.

It rocks Rand even gave me his cell phone number to reach him in Moab.

I don't know about their experience with axles, but the guys from www.wayoffroad.com are really damn cool. Also, there's Gunseth's in Swanzey, NH. He's a second generation jeep guru. That's about it for me, you might check out www.neow.org as well as www.newjo.org .

Im guessing the ends aren't aligned properly, causing the leak.

Originally posted by Lance
Im guessing the ends aren't aligned properly, causing the leak.


yea i could see that as being the issue coming from that shop...

How can I find out if they are?

Thanx for the links schuss. I'll look into them.

Originally posted by Lance
Im guessing the ends aren't aligned properly, causing the leak.


Thats the first thing that I thought.

Not sure on how to check it accurately but doesnt sound like the ends are straight.

i read in a big rig truck manual
if you pull the shafts and backing plates you can run some straight edges off the housing ends. i think you need to go out like 3 feet or so. then take measurements across from flange to flange in a few places and see if you find anything. kinda like checking the toe in on a front end if that makes sense or am i :confused:

No easy fix to that problem. Anyone know how to check, some type of alighnment tool? Or somekind of jig?
Anyone on a shop in my area?
I think I will go ahead and have those guys fix it (new seals and bearings) see how long it lasts. Then find shop with know how. I talked to a guy in townsend, MA (Elias fourwheeldrive cntr) about an Hr away and he is a Tera dealer but hasn't worked on any 60's said if the prob was ends he would help me find someone.

Anybody know if Tony's right?

The technique Tony mentions shows how the flanges are aligned relative to each other, and doesn't tell you anything about how the flanges are oriented relative to the centerline of the axle.

If you have VERY straight edges and can index them to a machined surface on the outboard face of the flange, the distance between the tips of the straight edges should be the same, if they are clocked identicaly on the axle housing.

Indexing relative to the rotational axis of the axle is tougher, and I think THAT is what you want, really. :(

Randii

you pretty much need an alignment jig to check the housing. there may be some home grown tricks I don't know about, though.

That sucks!

Knock on wood... I have not had any problems with mine YET; it has been under there for a year now.

I am guessing a modified version of Tony's trick might work: Do as he says on the straight edge on one side to start with but make sure the straight edge is perfectly level to the ground.

Now what you are looking for is a common reference point on the diff; this you should be able to do by finding the highest point on the tube itself where the tube meets the diff housing using a 3' level set on top of the tube and mark that point. Now take 2 measurements from that point to the 2 ends of the straight edge you placed on the end of the axle (at equal distances from the center of the axle of course.) Unless I am missing something as I am just theorizing on this method, these measurements had better come out equal!

That only will check for front-to-back spindle misalignment, however the same method using the level and straight edge should be able to be done vertically and this would check for vertical axle end misalignment. Again, this just -seems- like it should work, take it for what you paid for it! ;)

can just about guarntee you they are. I gave up w/keith at redline and junked my dana 60 hybrid axle. My axle was so f@cked up,nothing lines up at all. So I brought a 44 w/warns and ctms.

find a local shop that BUILDS axles (narrowing, ect). Probably a local hot-rod/race shop.

They *should* have an alignment jig, would consist of a set of "pucks" that go in place of the carrier bearing (remove carrier), and another set that go in the housing ends (shaft bearings). The a LONG, and perfectly strait bar is put between them.

If the bar goes all the way through, with out binding, then the housing is strait, if not, it was either assembled wrong, or has been tweaked.


find a local builder and have them check it out.

talked to the local shop that did 1st seal again the guy is convinced that the reason is too much fluid in the diff. Hard for me to believe.
He seems to think that the ends out of align won't make a diff. unless they are way off. says he's seen one's way off that still hold seals. :question:

yep I would agree with that guy that says it is not missalignment. The roundy round guys run cambered rearends that you can't even see all the way through they are so bent, lots of poorly narrowed axles are far from straight and don't have too much of a sealing problem. I know several people who have just welded 9" ends on a dana 60 with no jig or anything and just called it good, no chronic leaks from them. I bet the surface where the seal goes is boogered up from welding on the ends, or something.

Either way I if you take it to a shop that narrows axles they can cut off those ends and weld on some new ones using their jig. Then it will be straight and if the seal surface is boogered up it will be replaced with a new one. If you bring them the housing out of the vehicle it shoud be between $100 and $200 for this service, depending on how good they think they are and what ends they use.

One other thought (only because redline touched this!) is maybe there is no vent? Run the turnpike to NY, the expansion could create enough pressure to push it past the seals - Thats why the original seal looked OK.

A wacky theory to be sure, but I would make sure there was a vent and that it was actually drilled thru the housing.

www.elias4wdcenter.com (from memory do a search) sells Terra stuff and installs. Doesn't narrow himself. He is in Townsend, MA

What are you running for brakes / backing plates? I had leaks on my Currie 60 (SF 9 " ends) because I didn't use backing plates and didn't have the right spacers.

Made a set of spacers to the same thickness of the backing plate and have the right preload on the outer seals now. They make stepped bearing retainers to use with no backing plates. I run weld on disk brackets. Hope this makes sense...

Rick
(in MA)

The ends are off. Coming from Redline I am sure of it. he did not use an alignment jig to install the ends (watched him do them myself) but just turns them down on a lathe and presses into the tube itself which has no guarentee it is aligned properly in the casting. No that housing is not over filled. it is designed to be a higher level to compensate for it's lack of lubrication since it is RC and ppl typically pointing the pinion up.. they put that level on there for a reason. the inner seals are a part you can buy at a local NAPA there is really no fix except cutting the ends and having them re welded on. I have been told You don't have to run that inner seal. those bearings can be lubricated with 90wt as well (I do not do this personally or reccomend it) but leave the inner seal out and RTV the outer seal in. this may keep it from leaking until you can have the housing aligned. IT really is not that big of job. the worst part would be taking it out and dissassembly. the housing wourk would go pretty quick. YES I build housings, YES have done Tera housings, and None of mine leak. but I'm in Wa which is a little far for you to travel to get it fixed.

Originally posted by TLCObsession
One other thought (only because redline touched this!) is maybe there is no vent? Run the turnpike to NY, the expansion could create enough pressure to push it past the seals - Thats why the original seal looked OK.

A wacky theory to be sure, but I would make sure there was a vent and that it was actually drilled thru the housing.

This has actually happened to me. My breather got clogged with mud (extended breathers are for sissys :D ) and it caused the seals to puke oil. As soon as I cleaned out the breather, the leaking stopped.

Had a 60 shortend and used Moser big bearing ends. This WAS done on a alignment jig and the ends are Not perfect to the tubes. They actually offset a little. But the alignment bar through the housing and pucks don't lie. They are perfectly centered.
Do not know why, shouldn't matter. as long as you build it straight and over look slight problems in the looks dept. Hell, If I didn't tell you you wouldn't even know.

At least you got yours in and the truck running. Steve never even got his kit in. It was engineered so bad that he couldn't even get it machined to fit. He had to take a big $ hit. I think he's going with the Super Birfs now.

Keith needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law or just beaten.

Originally posted by Lance


This has actually happened to me. My breather got clogged with mud (extended breathers are for sissys :D ) and it caused the seals to puke oil. As soon as I cleaned out the breather, the leaking stopped.

It's ok to admit that it's beyond your fabrication skills :D

I thought all 9" s leaked at the seals, this is normal. That's what you get for using 9" parts...

seriously, make sure the bearing retainers are tight, they come loose easily...

I talked to the guy(Lou) at elias 4x4 cntr and he seems very ready to help and suggested the breather idea too (being clogged, or no vent at all "TLCobseesion") On the hwy to NY I do run it around 85-100. I'll check tomorow in the daylight.

Rickb I am running ford explorer 11" kit disc brakes not sure about backing plates?

Keith sucks a fat dick

Glad Lou can help. Not many true 4x4 shops around here...

You should be all set using the exploder stuff. I ran into trouble since I had nothing between the housing end and bearing retainer... Wrong preload against the seal = leaks.

Rick

Im not sure why your having the trouble...Ill agree with just about everything that been mentioned. Bad alignments, maybe..... BUT like someone else pointed out with the dirt cars they actually build the housings with some 2-3 deg misalignment. The bearings and seals can normally handle this...

BUT in anycase get a set of these bearings http://www.greenbearing.com/ they are a 1 part fix. My bro runs them on his 9" in his pro stock (dirt) its a sealed (greased) bearing with a seal to keep lube inside. They run them as the inside bearing tends to run dry on long races...

The web site sucks but give em a call. If you dont get anywhere let me know ill email my bro to get a part #

good luck...
-yag

Thanx for the info zukipuke I'll look into their product and give them a call tomorow.

Think I'm gonna bag the local shop and look into going up to Elias 4x4 in MA. Hopefully he can get to the bottom of this.

Any other ideas fellas? Or other shops? Gonna try to find local axle shop that might have a jig too.

Thanx for all the help

Originally posted by TLCObsession
One other thought (only because redline touched this!) is maybe there is no vent? Run the turnpike to NY, the expansion could create enough pressure to push it past the seals - Thats why the original seal looked OK.

A wacky theory to be sure, but I would make sure there was a vent and that it was actually drilled thru the housing.

Ya, my hp 9" from redline also had no breather, I had to put one on it myself, this could be your problem!

Originally posted by SNORTclown
The ends are off. Coming from Redline I am sure of it. he did not use an alignment jig to install the ends (watched him do them myself) but just turns them down on a lathe and presses into the tube itself which has no guarentee it is aligned properly in the casting.


this is a 100% true statment... having worked for him and seen this myself also, and i'm positive you didn't have a breather drilled into it when it left, as none of them had them when they left...

Originally posted by DSI



this is a 100% true statment... having worked for him and seen this myself also, and i'm positive you didn't have a breather drilled into it when it left, as none of them had them when they left...

HMMM, mine did. I must of got lucky...

I moved from Oregon to Rhode Island...

Damn, dude! Do you just have a fear of being surrounded by people, or what?:eek:


Sorry. I have no useful advice to insert here. Bye.

I moved to go to graduate school for bronze foundry and glassblowing. I miss the west coast but not the rain.

The Tera center sections come with a vent hole already tapped for a nice little 90 degree nipple.

( he said "vent hole" and "nipple", hehe)

I am leak expert (british trucks) not saying I can fix them but . . .

Start with the obvious.

See if there is a breather and see if it works (run air through it or just blow through it)! If you don't have one that is your problem.

Rover ran bearings in 90wt until 89 and to be honest they seem to do better than the ones in grease. You can just RTV the flange. Depending on how your axle is set up this may or may not be ok to do.

While your housing may be out of allignment or bent it would take a pretty serious (ie probably noticeable) misallignment to cause seal failure IMHO, also I would suspect in this type of seal failure you would see some deformation on the seal.

Ron

I hate it when I type up a long reply only to have it get fucked up when I hit send!

Lets see, this is a long story of my axle woes. It may help you, but it may not. :) I have a XJ D44 that I converted to disk brakes using some custom brackets. I made a 3/8" plate with a hole in it for the axle shaft/bearing/seal to pass through and bolted it to the housing end flange. From this, I had bolts passing through spacers to another 3/8" plate which mounted the caliper. I made two half moon shaped spacers to take up the difference in thickness between the original drum backing plates and the 3/8" plate. The bearing retainer plate bolts through the 3/8 plate and the housing end flange sandwiching the spacer between it and the seal. Well, this arrangement should have worked fine, but I had seal failures to the point that I sent the housing and one axle shaft to Moser for two new shafts and to check the housing for straightness.

When I got the housing back, there was a weld all the way around one tube meaning that they cut it, moved it some to straighten it, and welded it back together. I had a locker, gears, the Moser shafts, new seals and bearings all installed and thought my troubles were over. However, after a bit, the seals began to leak again!! I replaced seals and bearings a couple times before switching to a Grand Wagoneer D44 rear end to match the D44 front end I just built (6 on 5.5 bolt pattern.)

I built a new disk brake setup for this axle by using a 1/4" thick weld on bracket and modifying it to bolt on via the housing end flange bolts. I cut the original brake backing plate down to match the bearing retainer plate and reused the original bearings and seals. Almost a year with no leaks, so I don't believe the disk brake conversion is at fault on the XJ axle.

I compared seals between the XJ and SJ axles and see that the SJ uses Chicago Rawhide seals whereas I was using National seals in the XJ axle. I think the CR seals look a bit beefier. Also, I compared axle shaft seal dimensions between the axles and think that the Moser and XJ axle shafts are a few thousandths smaller in diameter than the SJ axle shafts. I theorize that Moser copied the XJ shaft dimension for the new axles and it was on the small side. I plan to install some ready sleeves on the Moser axle shafts, install new CR seals, button it up and sell it. :) Hopefully it will work fine for it's new owner. Hope my rambling helped a bit, Jeff

WELL I HAVE A 60 WITH FORD OUTERS AND EXPODER DISCS.

WHAT BEARINGS ARE YOU RUNNING?TYPE OF SEAL?

MY BEARINGS ON MY MOSER SHAFTS ARE PRESSED ON AND I CANT REMEMDER THE NAME BUT THEY LOOK LIKE OVERSIZE SKATEBOARD BEARINGS.NOT THE TAPER BEARINGS.THEY HAVE AN O RING AROUND THEM TO CREATE THE SEAL.THEN THE RETAINER TO HOLD THE BEARINGS IN PLACE?I HAVNT HAD ANY PROBS. DOESNT HELP YOU BUT I DIDNT READ ANYTHING ABOUT ORINGS...

The bearings I replaced the first leak with was BCA Fedreral-Mogul bearing A-20 and the seal was ? part #S-3195. I tore off the box ends to remember but neglected to get the seal manufacturer off that box.

I went with the breather vent plugged idea. Crawled under checked it out and it almost looked like the breather puked some fluid, not sure, lots of it on that side from the leaky seal sprayed around. Took off the breather cap (looked cleanish) put my lips to the hose and gave it a puff. There was a slight "blockage". Just like when you shoot a spitball. Enough to know there was something there but not that I had to give it a serious breath. Could that be it? I am gonna top off the pumkin and run it to see. Will it keep on leaking if that was the problem are the seals gonna continue to puke oil? Or will it reseal?

"Knock on wood... I have not had any problems with mine YET"


But Kevin, your one fawked it seals immediately didn't it ?

I remember Troy sealing yours with silicunt before you even had it a week :)

DS

I (up until recently) lived in New Hampshire and can say good things about Gunseth's. Steve owns it. 603-352-4204. He isn't into "pretty" rigs. If you call chances are Steve or Rodney will answer the phone. (Tell them Jim O'Brien sent ya, second thought maybe not :D)

Originally posted by schuss
I don't know about their experience with axles, but the guys from www.wayoffroad.com are really damn cool. Also, there's Gunseth's in Swanzey, NH. He's a second generation jeep guru. That's about it for me, you might check out www.neow.org as well as www.newjo.org .

Originally posted by DippStick


But Kevin, your one fawked it seals immediately didn't it ?

I remember Troy sealing yours with silicunt before you even had it a week :)

DS

Colin, that was were the tubes are pressed into the housing.

i grew up in woonsocket during my high school years there used to be a 4 wheel shop right off of mendon road just before diamond hill ..he used to work on my dads scout does good work and was cheap.for the life of me can'e remember the name.just take the 195 to 101 over the blackstone river to woonsocket and take a left onto mendon road and go about a mile it will be on your left.

Thanx for the info I will call Gunseth's and check out that place in Woonsocket. I think I am going to go to Elias 4x4 in Townsend, MA. he's a Teraflex dealer. But it's always good to shop around.
Any ideas about my last post??


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I went with the breather vent plugged idea. Crawled under checked it out and it almost looked like the breather puked some fluid, not sure, lots of it on that side from the leaky seal sprayed around. Took off the breather cap (looked cleanish) put my lips to the hose and gave it a puff. There was a slight "blockage". Just like when you shoot a spitball. Enough to know there was something there but not that I had to give it a serious breath. Could that be it? I am gonna top off the pumkin and run it to see. Will it keep on leaking if that was the problem are the seals gonna continue to puke oil? Or will it reseal?
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I have a guy downstairs here that could do it.

What you need is a marble "QC" table at least 8' long, and a microhite guage.

Set the housing up on the table with NO bearings or gears in it, with the carrier bearing caps sticking out at 45 degrees.

Measure height top and bottom (vertical) of both wheel bearings surfaces and both carrier bearing surfaces.

Now roll the axle housing so the distances you just measured are horizontal, and repeat the vertical measurements.

This info will tell you how concentric the 4 bearing surfaces are. Unfortunately it will take about $150K worth of equipment, and an hour or two worth of measurement involved. If you know anyone who works in a precision machine shop they will have access to it though.

I know most race guys set up rear ends (dragsters) by jigging the rear end up on an oil hardened rod and welding the ends on. If you can find a guy that does this for a living he should be able to set up something similar, and it will give you a pretty good approximation of the measurements above.

If worst comes to worst, find a hot rod shop that does good chassis work, and just have them put new BB 9" ends on your diff. That would eliminate the question of if they are aligned.

Shawn, you said when you tried to blow through the vent it had resistance like a spit ball. Did you clear it by blowing through? If so, that would be about 5 psi (for the sake of argument). I am thinking of air over hydrualic type action going on here. A little chemistry law here, as a gas heats (air in your diff) it expands creating a pressure within its enclosure (again the diff) if there is an avenue for it to release the pressure it will seek it out. Why doesn't water run in then? Water has surface tension and it need to displace the air in the enclosure which is difficult if the vent is blocked. The air would have to go out the same way the water is coing in (assuming both ends are submerged).

Hope this helps.

BTW you just lived on the wrong side of WA!:D

I cleared it by blowing thru it. Not sure exactly what you mean. Though the 'blockage' seemed very minor, more like fluid in the vent tube. Can anyone else figure out what magoo is saying?

Originally posted by bigshawnf
I cleared it by blowing thru it. Not sure exactly what you mean. Though the 'blockage' seemed very minor, more like fluid in the vent tube. Can anyone else figure out what magoo is saying?

Not to say I understand it, but I think what he means is, it is easier for oil to get out than for water to get in.

Few reasons for this:

When diff heats up it builds pressure and pushes oil out, when it cools off it is not usually under water, so it is only sucking in air.

All parts of shafts, seals, etc, are coated with oil, and that makes it harder for the water to get through, the lubricated seals will mate up better, and the surface tension of the oil will bridge any gaps, keeping the water out.

that would be my guess anyway

That COULD be it. Depends, only one way to find out. If it was blocked so that no air could get through then probably.

Also will it reseal, again depends. My experience has been yes but given that you have some serios doubt I would put in new seals. if it pukes then you know you have major issues.

once again I have no concept of the set up on your axle just basing this on what I have seen in rover axles

Ron