Hi all,

I'm planning to build a (4/6 pt ?) rollcage on the BJ40 I'm resto'ing right now, and I thought :

has anybody built a real serious rollcage that mounts on the body near the body mounts, (or far from them, but then the body would be reinforced) and not directly on the frame. If I build strong body mounts, my cage would still be plenty strong, but not directly welded to the frame, to prevent driveline, engine and other vibrations, which a frame-mounted cage would transmit to the whole body, does it ?

Any comment welcome of course...

Other Q :
Has anybody ever seen a 40 with the fiberglass ceiling, but no hardtop walls, kind of safari-style body. How's that look ?
(Thinking of the truck that comes after...)

Thanks, and bye

i have surprised myself....the body is strong!!

i mount mine with a LARGE plate underneath and a large plate on top, and hold it in with galvanised and nylocked grade 8 bolts, my bolts are 3/4 inch or something huge...... ;)

the plate on top, obviously has the cage welded to it
i've seen lots of rolls, just with body mounted cages and no roofs or sides, and the wheel arches hold up well, and because its mainly only on small ledges and side flops, i dont really see a need for chassis mounted cages....yet.....

i rolled mine 3 times (1080 degrees) with the roll cage mounted to the body. i hear this won't work but it saved my a$$.....and my partners. this was not a slow roll, we were doing about 35-40 mph. i had no backing plates on the bottom, just cage bolted thru the sheet metal and not one bolt hole ripped. just my experience.

I have read about a lot of people's experiences. You will not want to find out you should of bolted it to the frame. You may not ever need something that built, but it is worth when you need it!!!

IMHO,

I agree with warpdriv...better to spend the few extra $$$ and mount it to the frame, then to go the cheap way and be one of the unlucky few where the body fails you.
I had Elmer at WTOR (Big Dog Cus. Fab.) in San Angelo Tx. build me a cage and tie it into the frame. I don't really want to roll my cruiser right now, but I know there is a great chance that I will with a SOA, so I went ahead with a cage, mounting it to the frame is only a few more $$$ when thinking about safety, so why not?
On mine there really isent noise/vibration transfer...not like its a quite ride anyway. I would atleast put on some big backing plates on under the mounting points though, since thats only a few bucks...
Just my $.02
:D

Joseph A.

Here is a few pictures of how my cage is mounted...

another...

and another...

Go to the frame!

I rolled hard with a body mount,it saved my ass but it fawked the tub up bad.

if your worried about vibes with a welded cage, consider using poly bushes bolted to mounts welded on the frame, like a poly engine mount, i'm sure someone has pics.
on the other note, i dont have a pic of a cruiser with hard top no sides, but i had my patrol like that for a while, i liked it.

Don't use the body...go to the frame and if your worried about vibes use poly or rubber bushings to isolate it...would snap a few but its dark and my camera is at work....

I've asked the same question some time ago on the Land Cruiser mailing list, everyone told me the same thing, don't take short cuts when it comes to safety, mount your cage to the frame. You may probably never need a cage that strong but if you do it will save your life and more importantly the life of the sexy blonde who is hitching a ride with you!!. :flipoff2:

I am also planning on building an 8 pt cage, are you going to use pipe or tube? What tubing bender will you use? I've searched over here in Belgium for a tube bender similar to the JD2 bender ( www.jd2.be ) but could only find the more expensive hydraulic tube benders.

christof

I agree with everyone else go to the frame for your cage mount why have to do it twice!!! But thats just my idea :D :D

Mine goes to the body. but the body is 3/16th or better,from the firewall back and all of the supports are 1/4". MORE than strong enough. If you have a stock tub, I would tie it into the frame, and don't bet on the factory rear bar.

:evil: advocate here....

In some sever roll-overs (i.e. down the side of a mountain), you'll see frames separate from the tub. Seems that with a roll cage & tub staying in one piece, the driver/passenger have a better chance of surviving. Thankfully such events are pretty rare.

With the roll cage being mounted solid with the frame, the weight of the frame will help smash everything to bits.

Admitted these are extreme cases, but I like for the driver to get the best odds possible. I've seen lots of DUMB things done in building a cage, and the make me :mad3:

Competition Basics:

Lap Belts down on your THIGHS (not the stomach)
Shoulder belts coming straight back off your shoulders (keeps you from hitting the windshield... lap belt keeps your head from
hitting the roof).
Anti-submarine belt for competition.
Seat frames mounted to a sub frame off the roll cage. If the seat frame breaks, all bets are off

To keep the FRAME RIGID, yes, the cage is tied into the frame to reduce the amount of flex.

Just wanted to point out that a well built cage, tied into the body, can be safe for the driver. For competition, to keep the frame from flexing, then tying the cage into the frame will work.

Sigh, I'm getting older and lost some good friends who have had "bad luck" of accidents. None of them should have happened. One due to badly welded cages really piss me off. Others were freak accidents (my sis' husband was killed when his jeep rolled...).

Other accidents are just as bad, such as breaking your back due to incorrectly attached and tightened belts.

As long as your tie points to the body are large, double plated, and meet on the strongest points, having the cage tie into only the tub should be fine. Common sense of making sure the tub is not rusty, patched, etc.

Does anyone have any ON-LINE references for cages/safety? SCCA GCR are in the rule book, but not on line. Still they have good tips for a given body weight the cage needs to be 1.75" 0.102" wall DOM, but if built using HREW 2.00" 1.20" is called for.

Long winded, but I have some pretty strong feelings about safety items. Whole idea is to go out and have a good time and enjoy yourself. Worse thing in the world is going back to tell someone their husband was killed in an accident.

Tom :usa:

I *THINK* i remember woody saying somthing about his cage was designed to separate from the frame in the event of a SEVERE roll? on the idea that it would be safer to have the cage separate from the chassis in the event of a roll strong enough to do so. but then again woody's cage is pretty burly, has all the seat and belt mounts attached to it...

I'm going to mount my cage to the body for now [6pnt] and worry about tieing into the frame later when i have more time. i also dont plan on rolling anytime soon either though, i have to be nice to my baby for awhile, she hasnt been running in 2 years:(

Matt:skull:

My seat mounts are attached to the cage and soon the 5pts. will be too once my new seats come in...hopefully today or tomorrow.
If I do roll hard enough to seperate the cage and body or body and frame, me and my passengers will still be in the cage no matter what....would be more of a roller coaster that way...:D

Joseph A.

Hi all,

Thanks for the input.
I definately want to build a cage that is somewhat tied to the frame, but preferably not welded because of vibrations... I'l also be easier for an eventual unmounting of the body in the future, and will make building easier : I build my frame, build my body, and assemble the two. (right now I'm stripping the truck down. Btw, those body mounts are a PITA to unbold. Tomorrow I'll plus the 6" angle grinder, and the 12" as well... Wish me good luck...) So while I'm rebuilding this pretty badly rusted tub, I was thinking of a global reinforcement of the body, including rear fenders with heavy gauge steel flares, reinforced front doors front pillar, which would also be the lower part of the front hoop, reinforced tailgate pillars, reinforced tub crossmembers, integrated nerf bars/sidesteps... and have a built-in rollcage on top of this with one hoop in the front I alredy talked about, one just behind the doors where the body mount is, one on the fender in the "standard" location and the last one welded to the rear pillars in the back. Do ya think I should use the stock body mounts, or build additionnal/beefier ones ?

Rhino, do you have pics for the patrol ?

Christof, I'll be using tube : in case I can find back the sexy blonde, I don't want her hurt just because pipe is easier to bend..., and have no bender anyway. I'll go to the metal workshop nearby, and ask them bend me bent sections of pipes, with 300mm or so straigth sections at both ends, and will weld them on a smaller tube that will come into them, as well as into the rest of the cage. (does that sound clear ?)
All the tube should be ~50mm * 3mm wall (2"*0.120 for the non-metric guys) if I remember well (I already have them...somewhere)

Tom, thanks for the good pieces of advice. I'm building a cage for SAFETY issues only, so I'll try to be as serious as possible about it...

more coments ? suggestions ?

Bye,

Denis

If i understand what your saying, your going to have a shop bend you some 90º angles in some tube then your going to slip fit these over smaller tube and lap weld them. DONT. :eek:Just go to this shop with specific measurments and have them bend your hoops up for you, you dont want to have seems in your hoops and everywhere you need a bend. I would be alot more worried to ride in a cage like that tied into the frame than a well bent cage tied into the tub alone.
Matt:skull:

i also dont plan on rolling anytime soon either though

Thats what I said just befor I floped:D

If your wheeling theres a chance you could roll.

My Tub mounted Cage was Toast along with the tub at "every" attaching point.

I'm not taking any chances now.

To the guy worried about vibrations , fawk it's cruiser for christ sake ,it's not a Cadilac,you can't hear the radio when your going over 40 mph:rolleyes: :D

Rob

Originally posted by Jettech



My Tub mounted Cage was Toast along with the tub at "every" attaching point.

Rob

Rob,

Details of the roll. Speed, ground, amount of drop? Photo's?

Trying to get a good idea of "bad" roll overs where the cage is deformed. Engineer in me, more details the better.

Little humor: A friend in a Pro Rally car snapped a tie rod end doing about 70 mph. Sideways into a tree stump on the passanger side. Rod survived the accident, but broke his pelvis in three. :eek: That boy was in a world of hurt for some months, but got back to building the car (navigator & crew chief). Next time there were THREE side impact bars on his side of the car, one on the drivers side. Danny looked for the longest time at that and finally asked "why just one on my side?" Rod smiled with "I'm not worried about YOUR ass!" :D

Thanks,

Tom :usa:

I have seen at least 5 fast speed rollovers in a LC (~70mph). And have never even heard of the body seperating from the frame. Why do you think it is designed to do that???

IMHO I would much rather have the cage tied into the frame through the body so that you have one large mass around you to protect you. Tying the seats into the cage is also a very good idea. I would have dont that with mine but the Frigging gas tank gets in the way...
I guess I will just have to go total propane instead of dual fuel :D

Originally posted by Jason M
I have seen at least 5 fast speed rollovers in a LC (~70mph). And have never even heard of the body seperating from the frame. Why do you think it is designed to do that???

Jason,

By the time you get enough force to seperate the engine/tranny/xfer from the vehicle, all bets are off! :(

It has to be an extreme roll to have the frame and body separate. Multiple end over ends. Usually going off a good size hill! I don't think the body and frame are designed to seperate, just massive forces involved will snap the bolts! That is a lot of energy to bust the bolts. Rust will play a large part in any structure failing like that.

Still sitting on the fence on this one. For Most rigs, a cage tied into the body is fine. Once again the body needs to be sound,
no rust, nor fatigure. For serious trail rigs, which more often then not, come from rusty hulks, probably best to tie the cage into the frame. For extreme end over end events, I would rather take my chances in a cage/body structure. Ya, can not plan ahead for such an extreme as you're not likely to walk away from that. :(

Yes, I've been in more than a few roll overs.... thankfully minor, mainly banged up from LOOSE STUFF rattling around inside the vehicle.

One trick I learned was to take any flat metal panel, and weld tubing around it. Good souce of metal tubing about the right size is brake line material! Gives is a nice finished look with the metal tubing providing "not sharp" edge. Umm, sliced open my hand on a panel one time during an event. I was fine, but what a mess!

Funniest roll over.... ending up upside down in a water fall. It hurt when we hit, as we went into solid granite. All the electrical went out, pitch black at night... and the sound of running water and feeling wet. My navigator thought it was GASOLENE and paniced. I was slapping away at fuel pump switches. Released my harness.. thud onto the roof. Took a moment to get orientated again. Worse part... discovery that HOT transmission oil was pouring out the top of the transmission, onto my backside. I still hate the smell of gear oil, having burning oil down your backside is not fun either... scrambled out of the car, and into the ice cold water. :D

HINT: When upside down hanging by your seatbelt harness, always let the other person release their belts first. When you
pop yours you have a softer landing. :D :D :D

Tom :usa:

I don't think Jason is saying that the body/frame are designed to separate in the event of a extreme roll, i think he was asking about my comment on woody's cage being only tied into the tub even though its a hardcore cage, with the idea being if he was in a serious enough roll to separate the two, he would rather have the entire cage, along with the seats/passengers, separate from the chassis rather than go along for the ride. But that is only in the case where enough force would be exerted to separate the cage and frame, like a VERY extreme roll.

*I* am not saying this is my idea or that i think the body and frame are ment to separate in a roll. I'm just saying that I remember woody saying something about his cage being designed this way. I'm going to wait for woody to comment on this before I say my memory serves me true or not:D

Matt:skull:

Details of the roll. Speed, ground, amount of drop? Photo's?

Well not fast but it came down hard,the rear end came up on a steep downhill,seemed like it got a little momentum on that mountain side:D

It held but the drivers side almost pushed thru and the passenger side pulled thru.

I only took two pics ,can,t see much except that it held, they are in this thread


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12154

Matt,

I thought the hoop would be at least as strong as the smaller tube, and the tubes would be a very tight fit, with no play due to the length they would be put on into another : 15" or so.

Am I missing something ?

I think I could very well (and will more than probably)follow your advice (it'll also be easier in the end, I am now thinking) but would like to know the explaination anyway.

Thanks,

Denis

I've considered building an external cage for my s-10. I would have a basic cage that would tie into the nerf bars and front bull bumper. Are there any problems I should consider on this??

In general i'd say its just not a good idea. anywhere you have a seem in a cage, other than a joint where two different tubes meet eachother, it just creates a weak spot and another variable in the strength of the cage. the long length overlaps do seem like they would be stronger enough, but then think of all the extra weight your adding with the extra tubing involved.

think of it this way: if you have one peice of continuous tube bent into a hoop, when you roll, the stress is going to distribute through the one peice alot better then if you have a seem at each end of the bend, where not only is stress building at the seem, but also transfering between the 2 different sized tubes.

The overlap idea could work, but i'd rather be safe than sorry, and think of how much simpler it will be to have the hoops bent instead of measureing and cutting and peiceing and welding them. plus your cage will look ALOT cleaner...


sfazr2 -
the only things i can think of would be worrying about everything clearing the cage... can doors open fully, are you going to block your lights, can you open the hood and easily access brakages on the trail, ect

Matt
:skull:

Matt,

Thanks for your advice. I'll have my tubes bent to the dimensions, and if really the man doesn't want to do them, I'll try my heavy solution.
The cage will be welded to the very reinforced tub, and I weel keep the original body mounts brackets.

Btw, I pulled the tub out of the BJ this morning, and started taking off the sheetmetal that used to cover the rusted fenders. Man, sometimes, nothing would have been better than BAD repairing. (The frame luckily is in an excellent shape... ) Pictures coming soon.

Bye,

No problem man, thats what we're here for.
As for welding to the tub, thats another don't. weld the tubes to some 1/4" plate with 4 bolt holes. make a duplicate plate for each one and sandwich the tub between the two. it spreads the stress over a wider area in a roll, it is alot harder to pull or push a 4x4" peice of plate through a tub than it is a 2" peice of tube. if you just welded the cage to the tub, it would rip out of the tub in your first roll. plus its nice to be able to unbolt your cage to add stuff on later, ie. seat mounts, ect.

you can see what im talking about on TxCruzr's cage, but his ties into the frame also.

Matt:skull:

Hi Matt,

Where i would weld the cage would not be on sheetmetal, but on something thicker, like some 1/2" thick U-bar, or square tubin which would be the body skeleton, or body crossmembers.

As for seat monts, they'll be done the same time, because I'm swapping seats anyway. Not sure about welding / bolting yet...

Bye,

Denis

I did a triple roll down a steep hill. The roll included a near endo with a pivot on the nose.

The sheet metal was pretty banged up, and the front clip and WS frame were toast. I was amazed that there was NO deformation of the sheet metal at the cage mounts. For reference the front hoop is pretty standard, and is mounted to a large plate, and the rear 2 hoops are mounted to a piece of 3.5 x 2.5 angle iron that runs the entire top of the fender well. I was really happy that:

a. We weren't hurt - including my golden who had a harness on but was not clipped in because we were on the 'easy' part of the trail.

b. the case did its job. I designed, built and welded it, so my money was where my mouth was. If we walked away and the rig was totalled, I still would have been happy.

The only damage to the cage was a single rock scratch.

As for frame & body/cage seprating, I have seen it on a body lifted mini that hit a guardrail. Nasty.

The body is OK with me, just make sure it isn't a rust bucket and that you spread the forces around.

AND as someone else said - most dangerous thing is the stuff flying around inside your rig. I was lucky - I had loaded a set of axles/birfs and decided that I didn't like where they were, so I moved them and strapped them in a better spot. I have a Tuffy console and a dashbox, and both were 'yardsaled' all the way down the hill.

Build it right, and take care. And to paraphrase an old motorcycle saying, "Its not IF you will roll, its WHEN you will roll" (at least with the way trails and runs are getting.

Jim

Jim

Mine is directly welded in with the body mounts, and located such that any direct hit would transfer the energy into the mounts and directly into the frame. In front, the cage plates sit directly above the two frame extensions, in the middle it's tied directly into the custom 2x4x1/4" body crossmember, which sits on the frame, and in the rear, they are tied into the 2x2x1/4" verticle body ends, which are tied directly into the frame via mounts. Mine is designed such that in an EXTREME situation, the frame/driveline could separate completely from the cage and leave me in my seat. Worst case, even the tub itself could separate and leave me with a cage and seats.

The odds of such an extreme roll happening in the MidWest are almost zero, but for every flop I've had the cage has held wonderfully.

That being said, I am redesigning a lighter cage for creation this summer. I really like mine and it's design, but want something with less weight...preparing for the ProRock event in August...heh heh

Jim,

Thanks for the advice. Btw, I'm thinking of designing my rear tub mainly with thick large angle iron, on which would be welded the sheetmetal.

Here's a quick drawing :
denis has attached this image:
http://landcruiser.free.fr/dwg.gif

a) and b) would be thick square tubing, whereas the rest would be angle iron. c) are the body mounts bolts.

I would weld/bolt the hoops in 1 and 4.

Brian,

You said you welded your cage near the body mounts, but the middle hoop on your pictures looks like it's in place 2 or 3 on top of the fender. so is your body different than mine (change in body mounts location with years, or did you build some kind of reinforcement ?) do you have close-ups of how the cage mounts to the body ?
Is the rear hoop directly welded to the pillar, or did you build a bracket so that is monts on top of the fender, too ? (which it looks like ?)

Last Q. : how will you design you new cage ?

I am also worried about shoulder clearance with the middle hoop on pos. 1. Did anybody experience this ? I bet I couldn't weld diagonals there either, which is an issue...

Bye,

Denis

Nice computer drawing skills man:D too cool, wish i could bust something out like that to illistrate my points! anyway, if your reconstructing the rear of you tub like that and tieing into it, then i think that would be plenty sturdy as long as your welds are good. here's a link to Brian's cage, which i REALLY Like.
Nevermind, i cant figure out how to post a page form ih8mud :(
go to www.ih8mud.com, tech section, under body and cage, Brian Swearingen cage design. its Sick:smokin:

Matt

Matt,

I'm reconstructing the rear body, because it was really completely ROTTEN. The truck in fact was sold more as an assembled batch of parts, rather than a drivable car. But since the only very big issue was the body, I decided to go for it. Yesterday night I cut the hard-top rails, from which I wiln only keep the straight section. Everything else is rotten but the fuel door...

thanks for the link, but I already knew of it (who doesn't ?)

Unfotunately, there are only pics of the cage alone, and the truck with the cage from the outside, but no close-ups of the mounting points...

Brian, anybody ???

Thanks,

Denis

I am doing almost the same thing as you plan to do, I'm building a subframe under my rear bed out of 30-40-4 mm square tubing. Should be strong enough for the rollcage too, I also plan making a frame for the rear fenderwell and weld the sheet metal to that. Will weigh a lot but will be strong as hell!

Christof

Here's a pic: