Hi All,

This is my first posting on the Pirate 4X4 board, and I’m hoping I can get some help. I am in the process of rebuilding a transmission and transfer case from a series IIa. The Transmission is a suffix C, and the transfer case is a suffix E. I am at the point in the project that the Green bible doesn’t seem to help any more. Has anyone out there have experience with transmission/transfer case rebuilds?

Here’s the questions:

1 How much clearance should there be between the Clutch Release and the bushing? I have about .022 clearance and there is some pitting, (see Photo) (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3ny96/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/clutch_release.jpg.w560h420.jpg)
2 The end of the output shaft from the transfer case looks like it has seen some heat. Is this a problem? Notice the discoloration at the end of the shaft. Photo (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3ny96/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/trans_brake.jpg.w560h420.jpg)
3 I picked the transmission/transfer case up in a junk yard, and it had been sitting for about 20 years. The teeth of some of the gears are rusted and pitted. Are these shot? First gear (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3ny96/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/first_gear.jpg.w560h420.jpg)Second gear (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3ny96/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/third_gear.jpg.w560h420.jpg)
4 Should I look into re-gearing the transfer case to replace my overdrive? Who carries the replacement gears? Are there different ratio’s? What’s out there for choices?
5 It was recommended that I replace the syncros while I’m at it. Do they usually get replaced when you open one of these? What else should be replaced on a “while your in there” basis?
I just picked up all new bearings and seals, and the parts cleanup is almost complete. I’m ready to order the replacements and put the thing back together.

More Pictures (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3ny96/danhatton2/id23.html)

Thanks in advance for the help.

Dan H
Pembroke, MA
Landy67@csps.com

Here’s the questions:

1 How much clearance should there be between the Clutch Release and the bushing? I have about .022 clearance and there is some pitting,


Will work fine if you can't find another, but may leak a bit of oil when you drive down steap hills (first rule of a IIA box, never park on a downward facing slope).


2 The end of the output shaft from the transfer case looks like it has seen some heat. Is this a problem? Notice the discoloration at the end of the shaft.


That is fine, I have seen a few like that and never seen a T-case shaft break there.


3 I picked the transmission/transfer case up in a junk yard, and it had been sitting for about 20 years. The teeth of some of the gears are rusted and pitted. Are these shot?


Unfortunately yes, all those gears need replacing, and the corresponding layshaft gears as well. The rest of the bad news is that it is hard to find good quality gears these days as genuine ones are no longer available. Either buy them from a trusted supplier, or find some good 2nd hand ones (2nd and 3rd - practically impossible to find good 2nd hand 1st gear sets). I had some new (3000 mile old) 1st gears fail on me when they lost a couple of teeth - on road!!! Later analysis showed that they were made from very soft base metal and case-hardened too hadr to compensate. The new replacements were better quality and are holding up fine though.


4 Should I look into re-gearing the transfer case to replace my overdrive? Who carries the replacement gears? Are there different ratio’s? What’s out there for choices?


You need to modify the T-case housing to do this, as the intermediate shaft needs to be moved. Depends on what you will use the landie for. I would be more inclined to fit Suffix B low range and intermediate gears so you get 49:1 first low (2.88 low instead of 2.35) - but I use my IIA offroad a lot.


5 It was recommended that I replace the syncros while I’m at it. Do they usually get replaced when you open one of these? What else should be replaced on a “while your in there” basis?
I just picked up all new bearings and seals, and the parts cleanup is almost complete. I’m ready to order the replacements and put the thing back together.


The synchro hub need only been replaced if it is worn out. Have a look at the fine bronze grooves/teeth, and the steel teeth that engage with 2nd/3rd. If both of them are in good condition there is no need to replace the hub. Make sure you fit the hub the right way around (otherwise you will only have a 3-speed box).

Check the play of the reverse gear on the shaft. Also check for pitting - a little bit is OK for the reverse gear.

Have you removed the race for the layshaft? Is your layshaft the later model one with the correct radius at the neckdown? - the early ones were prone to breaking.

Have you bought a replacement brass bush for 2nd/3rd? - Preferably not the silly 2-piece one.

Further notes:

If you haven't stripped down further than in the photos, you should pull the layshaft and mainshaft down completely to check the shafts, etc. The first gear is a slight pressfit to the layshaft. The bronze bush under 2nd/3rd is almost always broken, and needs to be replaced. You need to remove the small steel pin to get the gears/bush off.

EDIT - looking again at the pics - 2nd may be reusable, if that is the worst of the pitting. What are the layshaft gears like? If you take some closeup pics of the synchro hub, I can give you my opionion on it if you want.

Thanks for the quick response.

The dismantling is almost complete, and I added a couple of new pictures to the web site (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3ny96/danhatton2/id23.html). I have both the cases emptied except for the small shaft in the back of the transmission with the small gear(reverse?) I don’t quite get how to remove the shaft, and do the refit later. The shaft and gear were under the pudding the oil had turned to, so they should be pretty well preserved. Everything on the layshaft seems to be in good shape. I don’t think this transmission saw much use.

The other thing I haven’t been able to disassemble is the main shaft. There are two gears and that brass bushing you were talking about. I guess I need another tool to remove the ring clip that holds the gear in place. I plan a trip back to the place I got the bearings from. They had a pair of pliers that look like they were made to remove a clip like this one.

I also took some pictures of the syncro. I don’t see a difference from one end to the other. Please pardon the gunk, I haven’t finished cleaning everything. I don’t see any obvious wear, and it moves pretty easy.

I haven’t ordered anything other then the bearings and seals. I usually order parts from Rovers Down South, TNTLR, or Rovers North. Do you have a preferred supplier?

Dan H
Pembroke, MA
landy67@csps.com

I have both the cases emptied except for the small shaft in the back of the transmission with the small gear(reverse?) I don’t quite get how to remove the shaft, and do the refit later. The shaft and gear were under the pudding the oil had turned to, so they should be pretty well preserved. Everything on the layshaft seems to be in good shape. I don’t think this transmission saw much use.

That is the reverse idler gear - if it doesn't have much play/wear and is not badly pitted then you don't need to remove it (if you do need to remove it, you need to press the shaft out of the casing from the inside - it has a smaller diameter at the front end). What you do need to remove though is the outer race of the layshaft bearing which is visible in the same photo. It is not easy to remove as it is blind. There are 2 methods:

(1) make a thick wooden dowel that just fits insite the race, stand the case up so the race is at the bottom, fill the recess with oil, fit the dowl in the recess, and give it a few whacks with a hammer until you have hydrauliced the race out (this method is a PITA - method 2 is easier).

(2) from the rear of the box, mark carefully, then drill 2 small holes from the back of the casing (180 deg apart) that line up with the rear of the race. You can then use a thin punch to punch the race out from the rear.

If you have to replace the reverse bush, it usually comes semi-finished and you need to hone the bush to match the shaft.


The other thing I haven’t been able to disassemble is the main shaft. There are two gears and that brass bushing you were talking about. I guess I need another tool to remove the ring clip that holds the gear in place. I plan a trip back to the place I got the bearings from. They had a pair of pliers that look like they were made to remove a clip like this one.

Ah yes forgot about that, If stuck you can use a couple of screwdrivers. Make sure you have a new c-clip in your rebuild kit - it is a use once only item.


I also took some pictures of the syncro. I don’t see a difference from one end to the other. Please pardon the gunk, I haven’t finished cleaning everything. I don’t see any obvious wear, and it moves pretty easy.

Have a look at the first and second pictures you have posted of the synchro. Notice where the internal splines end between each picture. That is the only difference, but it is important.

The splines on the outside of the steel centre section look good, they seem to have practically no wear. The other important thing which cannot be seen from your photos is the condition of the outer brass rings. On the inner (angled) face of each ring, there are raised rectangular sections. Each rectangle should not be smooth, rather should be grooved (hope that is clear) - this is normally the part that wears first.


I haven’t ordered anything other then the bearings and seals. I usually order parts from Rovers Down South, TNTLR, or Rovers North. Do you have a preferred supplier?


Unfortunately I only know good LR parts suplier in Australia, so that is not much help. When I buy series gears now I always look at the guality of the gears and the box they come in before buying, to see if they look like cheap crap or good quality. The last set of gears I bought had marks (on the side of the gear) where the hardness had been tested with a rockwell tester after induction hardening - if they bother to do that it is a good sign of a good quality gear.

Apart from the bearings, lockwashers and seals you need (at miniumum):

NEW layshaft and mainshaft 1st gears
NEW or 2nd HAND mainshaft 3rd gear (best to replace in pairs - are you sure the layshaft gears aren't pitted?)
Brass bush for 2nd/3rd (if broken), and retaining pin (???)
C-clip for mainshaft
Probably have forgotten something...

Probably new intermediate gearings if you don't have them. ONLY buy GENUINE LR - all the resr are crap and end up twisted sideways.

ALso, I never use the factory gaskets - only a small amount of RTV/siliscone. The only place I don't use silicone is the (rear) speedometer housing on the t-case, which must have the preload set with shims. I just use a high melting point grease between the shims. You may need some extra shims if you are fitting new bearings - whatever you do don't make the preload too tight!

Also, it is a good idea to fit better breathers (high level if possible), both breathers are in the selector cover, the front (round) one is for the gearbox, and the rear one for the t-case. I silver soldered copper pipes onto mine (after drilling bigger holes), and I ran breather hoses from the tubes up higher. Whether you need to do this depends if you plan on driving through any water...

Another method to extract the race out of the back of the tranny case would be the following:

ITEMS NEEDED:
10-lb hammer or similar bashing device
wooden cledge hammer handle
1 or 2 Prestone Coolant bottle caps
Duck/Duct Tape
Pottery Clay (the type you use to throw pots not the modeling type)

DIRECTIONS:
1. Tape the Prestone Cap to the sledge-end of the wooden handle.
2. Pack the void with the race with the pottery clay making sure that it is in there firmly.
3. Place the Prestone-capped end of the wooden handle against the packed clay and using the 10-lb hammer or equivalent tool drive the wooden handle into the void.
4. When you reach the bottom of the case remove the handle, repack the clay and repeat until the race comes out.

The clay will work its way under the race and force it out without having to drill the back of the case. This worked realy well when I rebuilt my tranny because I didn't like the idea of drilling the case which Rovers North suggested.

Thanks for the help, I think I’m figuring out how a transmission works.

I think I’ll hold off trying to get the race out of the transmission housing. I went to the place I got the rest of the bearings from and I was told that that bearing is going to be very hard to find. I’d hate to go to the effort of pulling the race out only to have to put it back in.

I scraped some more gunk off some of the parts, and I am not sure any longer if this is a “E” suffix transfer case or a “B”. The letters I see are cast on the front drive housing, is the suffix stamped in the housing anywhere? Is there an easy way to tell the difference?

Thanks

Dan H
Pembroke, MA
Landy67@csps.com

Dan,

If you've gone this far, why not find that 'hard to find' bearing?

Mark

Hi Mark,

My goal is to have a completely rebuilt engine, transmission, and transfer case for my truck. I plan to replace that bearing before I reassemble if I can find a replacement.

I currently have a running rover so I’m not rushed to finish the project. I picked up an engine and I rebuilt it, and as soon as I can finish the transmission I’ll do the swap out of everything all at once.

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the series IIa parts guide? I purchased a copy of the Green Bible on CD, but the folks I got it from don’t have the parts guide. Now that I look at it closely, all of the gears from the main shaft need to be replaced. I just cleaned up fourth gear and it’s pitted as well.

Thanks again

Dan H
Pembroke, MA
Landy67@csps.com

This worked realy well when I rebuilt my tranny because I didn't like the idea of drilling the case which Rovers North suggested.

Interesting method... if you can get potters clay. Have to be 100% sure you don't leave any grog particles behind when you were cleaning the clay out.

My case was drilled when the military rebuilt my box before me. Haven't had any problems because of it, the small holes seal up easily with silicone, and the t-case mating surfaces cover them anyway.

I think I’ll hold off trying to get the race out of the transmission housing. I went to the place I got the rest of the bearings from and I was told that that bearing is going to be very hard to find. I’d hate to go to the effort of pulling the race out only to have to put it back in.

I scraped some more gunk off some of the parts, and I am not sure any longer if this is a “E” suffix transfer case or a “B”. The letters I see are cast on the front drive housing, is the suffix stamped in the housing anywhere? Is there an easy way to tell the difference?


The part number is stamped on the selector cover, the suffix is the letter that ends the number. It is easy to swap selectors though. If it is a suffix B it will have taller box ratios and lower transfer ratios than a suffix C on.

The rear layshaft bearing is IME usually the first to go, as it is fairly small. If you have an early suffix, you will likely have the weak layshaft.

Since you need so many gears, it would probably work out cheaper to find a second IIA box - as long as you can pull it down and check the gears are good before you buy it. That way you will probably need to just buy the first gears new. BTW - that is the worst pitting I have seen on all the boxes I have pulled down. Usually first is bad but the others are salvageable.

Does anyone know where I can get a copy of the series IIa parts guide?

You can download the manuals from here. The parts manual is not the original, instead has hand-drawn pictures. Should still be good enough though.
http://landiesrus.com/

I have another box, and I’ll pull the cover off today to see if I can use any of the gears. I was told that there was a problem with first when I bought it, but there may be some salvageable parts that can save me a few bucks.

The distance piece was indeed broken into three pieces. I used the screwdriver technique to remove the clip, and I now have all the pieces separated. I’m trying to put together a list of the parts I need to start sourcing them out.

How do you know what thickness thrush washers to get when you don’t have the gears? Are they cheap enough that you just buy one of each and eBay what you don’t use?

Hope everyone had a good New Years celebration

Dan H
Pembroke, MA
Landy67@csps.com

How do you know what thickness thrush washers to get when you don’t have the gears? Are they cheap enough that you just buy one of each and eBay what you don’t use?

I don't know about the US, but in OZ they are only $1 each or so. Sometimes you may need to rub down the thicker one slightly (using sandpaper on a sheet of glass), to get the right freeplay. Use the old c-clip for trial fitting.

The transmission the old truck look like they have lots of miles on them, and it’s an “A” suffix, so I don’t think I can use much if anything. I was told that 1st has a couple of broken teeth, and it looks like the syncro is broken.

I’ve been looking around, and I just bought a set of genuine NOS rover 3rd gear on eBay for $40 US. I’ve also found a 2nd gear NOS for $88 US in a local repair center that I hope to have in hand tomorrow. I’ll poke around some more and see what else I can find.

Wish me luck!

Dan H
Pembroke, MA
Landy67@csps.com

Good luck finding all the gears. Those must be old if they are really genuine...

Have you taken a photo of the layshaft yet? If it is the early model layshaft you will need to buy one of them as well (if you want it to stay in one piece).

Here is a picture of the Main and Lay shafts, please let me know if I need to replace either one of these. Parts (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3ny96/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/main-and-lay-shaft.jpg)

This is a picture of the third gear set I won on eBay. I haven’t heard from the person O bought it from, but he says it’s genuine Rover. Genuine 3rd gear (http://i1.ebayimg.com/04/i/05/d2/a2/9c_1_b.JPG)


Thanks again for the help

Dan H
Pembroke, MA
Landy67@csps.com

You do realize that series rover owners will sell you a used T-case and tranny for less than $100--right?

Hey Evil,

This is a $100 Tranny and transfer case. You should have seen the $500 one I let get away. Quality Rover parts are few and far between around here.

Dan H
Pembeoke, MA
landy67@csps.com

Here is a picture of the Main and Lay shafts, please let me know if I need to replace either one of these.


The mainshaft should be fine, the important thing is the layshaft. You need to remove first gear and see (take pics) how t is machined at the diameter/section change. If it is machined without a radius (early model layshaft) it would be advisable to buy a new one.

If you want another core I can look around. I know where at least one is sitting (I sold the whole truck for $500)

Dan--

I have a complete Suffix A transmission/transfer from a '65 88" in unknown shape that I will sell cheap. I have not pulled it apart at all yet but if you want it I am only a short drive from you (Southborough MA)

Hi Guys,

Here is the picture of the layshaft (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3ny96/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/layshaft_end.jpg) with 1st gear removed. What’s the verdict? Can I keep the layshaft?

I was also wondering why the speedometer worm gear (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3ny96/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/speedo_worm.jpg)fits so loosely on the shaft? It seems like it’s nothing more then the viscosity of the oil that makes it turn. Is there a reason that they don’t just dimple the shaft with a punch to get a little grip like they do on the first gear on the layshaft? Is this why the speedometer bounces when I get going at highway speeds?

Adam and Evil,

I think some of the parts I need aren’t interchangeable with the suffix “C” I’m rebuilding, but if there are parts I can use, I’ll entertain the thought. I’m already into this transmission for a few bucks in seals and bearings, and I don’t want to lose that investment. If you have a whole truck for $500 I’d be interested. I need a IIa bulkhead and a few specialty items for a 109 five door including a title. (The Mass registry is giving me a hard time.)

Thanks

Dan H
Pembroke, MA
Landy67@csps.com

Buy adam's. I am much further away.

Hi Guys,

Here is the picture of the layshaft (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3ny96/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/layshaft_end.jpg) with 1st gear removed. What’s the verdict? Can I keep the layshaft?

I was also wondering why the speedometer worm gear (http://mysite.verizon.net/vze3ny96/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/speedo_worm.jpg)fits so loosely on the shaft? It seems like it’s nothing more then the viscosity of the oil that makes it turn. Is there a reason that they don’t just dimple the shaft with a punch to get a little grip like they do on the first gear on the layshaft? Is this why the speedometer bounces when I get going at highway speeds?


Sorry to say it but you have the early model layshaft. The later model has a noticeable radius where the spline diameter changes between the end of where 1st gear sits and the rest of the shaft. When the shaft breaks it usually breaks there. You have 3 options:

(1) use the shaft you have
(2) get the later model with the radius (suffix E and later should have the updated shaft)
(3) machine a radius in the shaft you have (the radius actually makes the diameter smaler but stops the stress concentration which causes failure) - but there is a danger you may machine through the case-hardening.

You are forgetting about the T-case preload - this holds the speedo-drive in place. Any bouncing you get is usually at the speedo end, not the drive end.

Hi Ben,

The parts seem to be cheap enough to replace the layshaft and first gear. With the suffix “D” layshaft. Does anything else need to be replaced when the layshaft gets replaced? It looks like the gears and bearings are the same, am I missing anything that I should be looking for?

While waiting for transmission parts to arrive, I started my next project. I am doing a frame off on a 109 five door for my wife. She wants a daily driver, and she has already claimed the transmission. It’s fun listening to her plan out what she wants for an engine, (my) transmission, major and minor options for her truck. I can’t get her to commit whether she will be taking it off road or not. There is a big difference in price between ProComp shocks and Old Man Emu’s. Are the OME’s worth twice the money?

Thanks again for the help

Dan H
Pembroke, MA
Landy67@csps.com

Hi Ben,
The parts seem to be cheap enough to replace the layshaft and first gear. With the suffix “D” layshaft. Does anything else need to be replaced when the layshaft gets replaced? It looks like the gears and bearings are the same, am I missing anything that I should be looking for?


I think you need a SUFFIX E or later model layshaft - a suffix D will probably be the same as yours - make sure you check the layshaft for the radius before you buy it. AFAIK everything is the same between the different layshaft models. Everything from suffix C on should be basically interchangeable.

Shock absorbers are not very important on leaf-spring vehicles as the interleaf friction provides a lot of damping (a different story if you are using parabolics). Parabolics still have quite a bit of interleaf friction, even though they only touch at the ends and middle (friction is independant of surface area).

On my x-military 109 I run the standard military Monroe shocks up front (reconditioned), and OME (Range Rover rear) shocks at the rear. OME are made by Monroe (an Australian shock manufacturer). I am not particularly imressed with the OMEs over any other shock, and one of mine weeps a bit of oil - I only bought them because they were cheap and they were the length I wanted. Note that these shocks will be too long for a civillian LR. On my father's IIA I fitted reconditioned original woodhead shocks allround - again mainly because this was the cheapest option.

I run modified semi-elliptic springs - here is a thread on the spring mods if you are interested - first pics were taken back when I had Monroes on the rear as well.
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=37883&sid=858fd3b78613fe1c89b33d53f33c6f8d

I don't see why OME shocks would be any better than pro-comp.