Never cross phases on a multi-phase circuit (a 220V welder requires a special 2-position breaker, like you dryer, to tap the two different bus bars in your electrical panel)

I'm just thinking - I didn't wire my subpanel (and therefore) or welder circuit in two phase.

Bad?

I had a "pro" check it before I powered it up, and he didn't mention it.

By special breaker, I didn't mean "that" special... it is a 2-position breaker that will automatically go across the two seperate hot busses (phases for this discussion) in the breaker panel.
How did you wire your welder circuit? Unless you have a phase correction circuit on 220V, it should wreak havoc on you?? At the very least, it will be extremely inefficient (decreased performance) and casue all sorts of power factor issues. PF may not be a problem to your power company, though in a residential location. I deal with commercial energy management and PF costs companies BIG dollars in fines from utility companies and lost hardware/higher maintenance costs.

If the breaker, that is dedicated... right, for your welder circuit looks like your dryer or oven/range breaker, then you are at least correctly terminated at the panel.

EDIT: As a footnote, most residential panels are not 3-phase unless you specifically built it that way, or your locale or power requirements demand it.

The different bus bars are not just to lessen the load on one wire. The power coming across those bars is completely opposite phases of the electrical waveform. AC motors run based on pushes of electricity. In a single phase motor, the push every 1/60 of a second allows the motor to work properly and efficiently for its design. When dealing with items meant for two phase, they expect a push that totals 1 push every 1/120 of a second for maximum efficiency and operation. This is handled by having two phases that push at opposite times, generating 120 pushes per second versus only 60 (US Electrical power operates at 60Hz... the pushes I am speaking of are the peaks of the Alternating Current electrical waveform).

If you're running a 220V welder on a split single phase, then you are not experiencing the full potential of that welder. Like running a V8 motor on only 4 cylinders... it'll get you there, but not nearly as efficiently if you're towing a trailer. (please don't bring the multidisplacement motor systems into this... that's why I added the trailer towing scenario :flipoff2: )

QUICK SPECS MILLERMATIC 210
Input Power Requires 1-Phase Power
200 (208)/230 V, 60 Hz
Rated Output 160 Amps at 24.5 VDC, 60% duty cycle
Output Power Range 30 - 210 Amps

So - given the information above, a double throw 30A breaker in a SquareD box would work as it's intended to correct?

Actually the 220 supply in a normal household is single phase. Both bus bars are in phase. The supply comming in is from a center tap ground transformer. Each bus bar has a 110 volt potential to ground, and the potential across the two bars is 220v.

Actually the 220 supply in a normal household is single phase. Both bus bars are in phase. The supply comming in is from a center tap ground transformer. Each bus bar has a 110 volt potential to ground, and the potential across the two bars is 220v.

Unless I'm mistaken on the internals of a panel.

two breakers have the potential for 220v. When you use a two pole single phase braker, it's getting the power from the same bar.

Unless I'm mistaken on the internals of a panel.

two breakers have the potential for 220v. When you use a two pole single phase braker, it's getting the power from the same bar.

Nope, two pole get power from each of the two bars coming in on a single phase residential panel.

You want to use a breaker that has a "common trip" for wiring your 220, for safety.

Yes, a two pole 30 amp breaker will supply the necessary power for the Miller 210.

You want to use a breaker that has a "common trip" for wiring your 220, for safety.

Yes, a two pole 30 amp breaker will supply the necessary power for the Miller 210.

Thanks - I'd wired up four 220 drops in my garage/shop this way. I thought I had it right at the time and all seemed to work fine. However, some of the more technical responses above got me to thinking that I may have made an error.


J.




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Nope, two pole get power from each of the two bars coming in on a single phase residential panel.

Yes, a two pole 30 amp breaker will supply the necessary power for the Miller 210.

I just checked my panel, and the bars cross over across the middle, so the 2pole breakers get both phases. (Square D panel) Now I just have to check the subpanel.

Freaks me out that the other 220v circuits don't use a neutral.

Freaks me out that the other 220v circuits don't use a neutral.

By using both hots, there is no need for a neutral since they are already balanced... 220V does not need a neutral. Two hots and a ground only.

By using both hots, there is no need for a neutral since they are already balanced... 220V does not need a neutral. Two hots and a ground only.

I know. Still freaks me out.

I don't see why? Having to use a neutral should freak you out more because it isn't balanced...

I don't see why? Having to use a neutral should freak you out more because it isn't balanced...

Having a neutral is like a shared neutral on a regular branch circuit. As long as it's a two phase 220 circuit.

check your local codes alot has changed with wiring codes. new 220 stuff needs a 3 wire + ground. lots of thing run a 110v accessory inside. light bulb, clock, pump, 2nd aux motor. older stuff that was grounded to the chassis, might not be code any more installed in a newer location. 2005 nec stuff spells out new things for all you bonded vs grounded freaks.... my head still spins. any good electrician could be a good lawyer, code books are just like law books.. just check things out ask an electrician.
google "mike holts electrical" site, much info there.

thump: that avitar rules.
I laughed my ass off when i saw that clown on tv!!

The required neutrals for the new 220V circuits in a residential application are due mostly to the prevalence of digitally controlled equipment. Things like clothes dryers and ovens are becoming more and more common with digital controls. Simple motors, water heaters and the like will remain a basic 2 wire cirucuit (2 hots, and a ground is alway assumed).

According to the Miller website, a 210 draws 27A at 230V, single phase (meaning 2 phases, I'm not going into electrical theory right now to explain why)

*Note*
A 35A will hold, by my calculation without being able to see the nameplate or read the owners manual. [2005 NEC 630.12(A)]

IIRC, the MOCP for my Hobart 180 is 40A, but it has been operating for a couple of years on a 30A with no issue (I've never had tripping issues, it's mostly for farm use)

Likewise, the 30A breaker for my 210 has never tripped, but then I don't max it out. I usually find myself on a 3 or 4 setting.

google "mike holts electrical" site, much info there.


Yeah, I've been reading on there for awhile, but they won't talk to homeowners. Even though some of the "pro" questions are scary as fawk.

Most of the recent newsletters have been on grounding vs bonding. And DuPont. :confused: :D

TWO PHASE???
They did away with that in the 1930's. It was an experiment that didn't work.
You've either got single phase or three phase power in the US.
Not TWO phase.

Yes, please say it correctly.... it is NOT *two* phase...

Phase has to do with the timing of the AC waveform, not amplitude or polarity.

All residential wiring is single phase.

Here's a good diagram:

http://toolandfab.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228

Here's a good diagram:

http://toolandfab.com/forum/showthread.php?t=228

Can't see it w/o logging into that forum, FYI.

and:

cebby has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space.


:flipoff2:

Yes, please say it correctly.... it is NOT *two* phase...

Phase has to do with the timing of the AC waveform, not amplitude or polarity.

All residential wiring is single phase.

Not all of it is.

There's a whole section of town here with a 240V 3ph dead leg delta system. Houses as well as commercial properties. Out toward the lake, there are some of the larger houses with a 208V system.

But yes, most of it is.:flipoff2:

Can't see it w/o logging into that forum, FYI.

and:

cebby has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space.


:flipoff2:

Cleared out my box here. I'll fix the issue about not being able to view attachments w/o logging in. Sorry about that.

Can't see it w/o logging into that forum, FYI.

Fixed. It's free to join tho... :flipoff2: