This is cut from a "reminder" sent to me recently by Warn, regarding our non-compliance with their policies.

This is not the entire policy, I don't feel like typing up four pages of little text, so I just snipped the important parts.

Does anybody else think this is anti-consumer or think it smells of command economics?

From Warn's "Optimum Value Policy":
Warn will, without advance notice and without liability to Warn, immediately cancel all orders and refuse to accept any new orders for any or all Warn M15000, M12000, HS9500i, XD9000i, X8000i 12VDC, Self-Recovery Winches, A2500 Multi-Mount, and A2500 ATV Winches from any Distributor, Retailer or Reseller that violates the Policy.

Warn does not seek agreement with its customers regarding their adherence to the Optimum Value Policy; each Distributor, Retailer, or Reseller must decide on its own whether or not to comply with the Policy. Warn sales personnel have no authority to modify or alter the Optimum Value Policy.

Warn will take appropriate steps to enforce the Optimum Value Policy consistently by conducting random wholesale and retail selling price audits, including audits of consumers, retailers, resellers, and Distributors. Warn is not, however, looking for assurances from any customer that it will adhere to the Policy. In addition, Warn is not requesting that any customers, retailers, resellers or distributors contact us with respect to policing this policy, as our enforcement will be unilateral.

Warn will immediately and indefinitely discontinue selling any or all Warn M15000, M12000, HS9500i, XD9000i, X8000i 12VDC, Self-Recovery Winches, A2500 Multi-Mount, and A2500 ATV Winches to any Distributor, Retailer, or Reseller that engages in the following Policy violations:

Advertising the products at wholesale prices below the Suggested List Prices, in effect at the time the advertising is placed, less 32%.

Reselling the Products at wholesale prices below the Suggested List Prices, in effect at the time of the sale, less 36%.

Advertising the products at retail prices below the Suggested List Prices, in effect at the time the advertising is placed, less 20%.

Reselling the Products at retail prices below the Suggested List Prices, in effect at the time of the sale, less 25%.

Warn will consider it a violation of the Optimum Value Policy if a Distributor, Retailer, or Reseller offers free or reduced price products, services, or discounts in combination with the Products that in effect lowers the final actual selling price below the minimum prices established above; unless theother products, services, or discounts are offered in combination with a majority of all products sold to a majority of all customers.

Sounds like a blowout sale is out of the question :( . I am becoming disappointed in Warn's policy.

soo basicly we can no longer go to advance and get warn stuff cheap as hell?

They do make a good product, but now I know why they cost so much and nobody will give you much of a break:mad:

Originally posted by Gozuki
I am becoming disappointed in Warn's policy.

As am I. I love the product, they make some of the best stuff around... and their customer service folks are good too, but their sales personnel are more of a police force than salesreps.

I actually got a call from the local rep, who wanted to remind me (because they'd gotten a complaint about our out-of-line advertising) of their policy... the same guy who I've personally called and left messages for three times, trying to find out about becoming a direct dealer. Never ever called back... so I asked, point-blank, "How come nobody from Warn ever returns our calls unless we're breaking the rules?"... and boy, was that a long uncomfortable silence.

What I really wanted to ask was "How come, if I'm advertising so far below the minimum advertised price, I still can't sell your product anyway?"... I held my tongue on that one.

Originally posted by Mustard Dog
They do make a good product, but now I know why they cost so much and nobody will give you much of a break:mad:

Yup, if I sell you an HS9500i below "minimum sell", and Warn finds out about it, they'll make my local distributor cut me off; if I advertise it below "minimum ad", same deal. The salesrep kinda seemed like he was trying to make it sound like an "informational" call more than a "reprimand" one, but after reading the policy, it sounds like he's better at buttering a turd than he is at taking the turd out to the trash.

Incidentally, if you (like I) think this is a bogus thing, Warn's customer service number is 1-800-543-9276.

Please, if you call the customer service line, remember that the folks in the customer service department are generally good people, and this policy isn't their doing. Just ask that they forward a message that you think the "Optimum Value Policy" is bogus or the like (please be nice, the customer service folks are).

Sounds like a "politically correct way to PRICE FIXING" :mad2: :mad3: They make great stuff but I think I'll be looking for other suppliers........:(

This is a scary "reality check" thanks for giving the "heads up" scott......:beer: :D

dude that's fucked, but doesn't it make it easy to try to talk to say "RAMSEY" and say "hey warn has absolute minimum pricing, can/will you let me beat it?" Suddenly your a RAMSEY dealer and your blowing WARN prices out of the water!

I'm not a sales person, so give me the smackdown if I'm unwittingly talking out of my ass!

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper
Incidentally, if you (like I) think this is a bogus thing, Warn's customer service number is 1-800-543-9276.

Please, if you call the customer service line, remember that the folks in the customer service department are generally good people, and this policy isn't their doing. Just ask that they forward a message that you think the "Optimum Value Policy" is bogus or the like (please be nice, the customer service folks are).

OK, every last one who reads this. thread. Be nice, be simple, be nice. Call and tell um Price fixing will not be tolerated.
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Now, somebody with 4 degrees in economics, tell us why this policy of Warns makes any sense, They are going to sell um at there fixed price to the wholesalers.. What difference does it make how little they are resold for? Warn makes no more money off the product after it is first sold? if the retailer wants to sell them cheep, to get folks in the door, or to make a name for him self, or what ever, how the hell does that effect Warn?

I feel like I'm missing something here, but I'll be damned if I can figure it out.

Maybe Warn will do a good thing and sell off it's winch line like it did it's suspension line. That way they can stick to the chrome stuff and them special expensive lights they make.
How bout they expand their fender flare line to hood scoops and ground affect so they can compete with the lund crap.

I had something like this explained to me before, lets say some company comes in and sells a lot of warn winches at ultimate bottom price, he sells a heck of a lot of winches right? now all your other dealers are not protected form this guy so they make squat, to boot everyone who wanted a winch now has one so you don't sell a whole lot of winches for six months.
if they keep the price fixed then sales are steady and production never has to meet a short term demand. just buy a different brand of winch, never liked warn anyways.

A few years ago, I was in Clackamas for a job interview with Warn and that subject came up. Probably stuff I wasn't supposed to be hearing, but it happened anyway. All of the above was heard as was the fact that they have stockpiles of 8274's but only release a preset number of them during scheduled periods to keep the demand high as well as the price.
I guess it's because they know they have a decent product and will be able to sell it-no matter what.

That's Fawking :rainbow: Why is it their busness what price you sell their Shiat for? they still make the same amount. I dunno what they have been :smokin: , but they need to change brands, 'cause that shiat jus ain't no good. It's too bad their management has their heads up thieir A$$es, cause they DO make damn good stuff

It's all about margins! Many company's do this, BFG does it as well. It's just a way to keep harmony between it distributors and wholesalers/retailers. There are many ways around it like buy a HS9500 and get a free redtop.

Originally posted by Old Scout
It's all about margins! Many company's do this, BFG does it as well. It's just a way to keep harmony between it distributors and wholesalers/retailers. There are many ways around it like buy a HS9500 and get a free redtop.

According to the policy (the way I read it anyway) you can't do that either, unless you give away a free redtop with every purchase over, say, $800.

From my first post:
Warn will consider it a violation of the Optimum Value Policy if a Distributor, Retailer, or Reseller offers free or reduced price products, services, or discounts in combination with the Products that in effect lowers the final actual selling price below the minimum prices established above; unless theother products, services, or discounts are offered in combination with a majority of all products sold to a majority of all customers.

Or, in other words (if I read this right) if I run a promo where I sell right at minimum sell, but give away a free winch accessory kit with it, I'm in violation; if I run a promo where I give away a free winch accessory kit with every $500+ purchase, I'm OK. But why would I give away a winch accessory kit with an order of beadlock wheels?

Its like that to protect the margin in it. If everyone has to sell for the same price then the guy with the best customer service will most likely get the business and everyones profit margin is there. its there for you the seller.

Scott,

I read and interpreted it the same as you did...but it doesn;t make me any less sick reading it. That's just awful sounding.

Presumably, they have the right to decide their own policies, fine,...but the whole thing smacks of secret police espionage tactics, and that's scary.

As in, you can;t openly advertise anything breaking the rules, including the "free" red top...but you could place one of those adds that reads "prices too low to print....call" - you see them all the time in the rags.....and only then could you explain the "free red top with every winch" policy....but they make it sound like they will actively call and pretend to be legitimate customers in order to trap you. WTF kind of way is that to support your own customers.....

These people need some SERIOUS competition in a BAD way....come on Superwinch and Ramsey...up the quality, and start selling at a loss to get your reputation out there.

What about setting up blind e-bay type corporation....you legitimately purchase and wholesale wARN winches from your warn rep, but use some sort of privacy law to refuse to divulge who your customer is, just produce books proving you aren;t breaking the rules. Then your dummy corp, whi is of course you (or your grandma) breaks the rules, e-bays then for rule busting prices, and refuses to disclose it's source. If they can't find the link....there's nothing they can do.

Fascist bastards.

If it makes you feel any better...when I was in South Africa I learned that Debeers, the diamond people, crush something like 75% of all diamonds mined into dust to keep price up and supply low. Imagine....cheap diamond tipped tools for everyone!

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper

From Warn's "Optimum Value Policy":
Warn will, without advance notice and without liability to Warn, immediately cancel all orders and refuse to accept any new orders for any or all Warn M15000, M12000, HS9500i, XD9000i, X8000i 12VDC, Self-Recovery Winches, A2500 Multi-Mount, and A2500 ATV Winches from any Distributor, Retailer or Reseller that violates the Policy.



Question: Did you edit out some of their other products this applies to, or is the above the whole deal? Why wouldn't say, the 8274-50 or axle shafts, be a part of this too?

:usa:

Scott, post what the min. prices are? Maybe email them to someone you know to post for ya. That way it can't get back to you easily. If you do I'll delete my reply.

I cant believe this. I know first hand of this as well. At our local annual 4x4 swap meet the local 4wpw store usually yards those Warsn winches out for cheap. Last year I could have bought a hs9500I for 749. w/ roller fairlead. That is 100 bucks less than normal. This year no price breaks or special offers. They sold alot less warns this year. IM GETTIN ME A RAMSEY,and I will be informing Warn of this as well.For shame for shame.

Hey Scott, I used to have a shop and Warn stopped selling directly to me. I had to go thru a middle man for thier products. I never completly understood there reasoning. I will only run Warn winches on my rigs cause they are a great product, but they (and many others) seem to prefer the mega retailers like 4 Wheel Parts.

shit I got hooked up then. Me and four of my buddies paid 720 out the door each for our winches. HS9500I too:flipoff2: from 4wpw

Originally posted by CRAWLTOY
shit I got hooked up then. Me and four of my buddies paid 720 out the door each for our winches. HS9500I too:flipoff2: from 4wpw

How long ago ?

back in november

tried to buy two more 3 weeks ago and now the best they could get me was 857 out the doot

Wonder how they much they paid for someone to come up with a goobly-gook PC term like.....

Optimum Value Policy

Jay

I just called Warn about getting info on their pricing structure as a dealer. I was reffered to the local zone rep. Have not called yet but this info answered a question or two I had for the guy. I must admit that the pricing policy does benefit the smaller dealer that can not afford to stock a thousand units in a 4 huge warehouses like 4WP can. But that also limits the smaller guy from selling cheaper than 4WP and getting the business from them

Warn will consider it a violation of the Optimum Value Policy if a Distributor,
Retailer, or Reseller offers free or reduced price products, services, or discounts in
combination with the Products that in effect lowers the final actual selling price
below the minimum prices established above; unless theother products, services, or
discounts are offered in combination with a majority of all products sold to a
majority of all customers.

So if you create a new company called Rockstompah that is a wholly owned subsidiary of Rockstomper and it only sells Warn HS9500 and 8274 Winches, and offers a $100 rebate and free shipping on all products that it sells, then you would not be violating the policy since Rockstompah would offer that deal to all of it's customers on all of the products that it sells. :D

why break your back to make 10 winches and make 100 dollars in the end when people will pay twice the price and you only make 5 winches, totaling 100 dollars profit for you in the end.

they are making sure that their retailers don't cannibalize each other, like they would. look at walmart, they put everyone else in their category under except for target.

if warn didn't do this some internet wholesaler, say national wheel and tire gets their 9500i for $500, turns around and sells them for $550 plus shipping. you the consumer would have to be stupid to not buy from them, you get the winch tax free for about 590 to your door. everybody else is selling the winches for just under 800 still, and they don't move off their shelves. all the stores have to pay for their shelf space, shipping, end of the year taxes or whatever, employes to lie to you, and lots of other junk. they simply cannot compete with retailer with no overhead who does huge volume.

what warn does is make sure that all the companies have a fair chance at clearing some profit. it gives them all the same wholesale price, yeah right, and gives them all the same ball park retail price. now you just go to whatever warn retailer you want to and buy a winch, it really doesn't matter.

ok, how this saves warn is it has a huge # of retailers who carry their product. if it wasn't profitable to carry warn winches because one internet company would always undersell you, no one would find it worth their while to carry warn winches, their would just be no money in it.

i'm really sorry about this long post, but thanks to the 2 people who bothered to read it, i appreciate it. everyone else can now comment about this is karl marx at work, and the commies are back. why, warn does like the color red don't they?

Thanks for the info, Scott. I'm going to call Warn tomorrow and act real mystified about why everybody seems to be charging the same price for their winches, see if they'll fess up and tell me the real reason why. Yeah, Warn makes a good product, and so does BFG, but this kind of shit is irritating. They need to hear from some disgruntled customers. And if they don't care, maybe Ramsey/Superwiinch will get another look from me.

Originally posted by Daniel


BET ME that 4wpw is not in bed with this one...:(

Actually the policy is in place to limit 4wpw. Smaller shops have had a hard time competing with 4wp prices and the fact that they would allways "beat any price". They dont care if the only make $35.00 on the winch, they are all about volume.

The little guy who needs to make 20-30% min just to keep the doors open and feed his kids are the ones who have been pressuring Warn to enforce this long standing policy.

Its like this, if Warn doesnt protect the little shops from being undersold, the little shops will (as suggested earlier) start pushing Ramsey or Mile Marker and Warn doesnt want that. They want to keep everyone happy and in busness. Otherwise, the high dollar warehouse shops will be the only ones selling Warn winches.

Everone is entitled to make a profit. I may not like the high prices but I respect Warns decision to support the small shops out there.

I don't have 4 degrees, but I am a student of economics, and price fixing hurts EVERYONE. Kind of. BFG does the same thing with their tires. But the reason they do it is to keep the rep of the warn high. remember, $$$$=quality in many people's eyes. And if people will pay it, why not make tons of profits? I agree its wrong, but if people will pay it, why not charge it? Now if only I could afford a winch. :(

I disagree that Warn is trying to protect the little guy. I think they are trying to protect the big guys like 4wph.

They dont want the little guy undercutting the big guy, as evident by Scotts menacing phone calls. Its the little guys that are willing to go low on prices to gain rep.

I think that people like 4wph are caling them saying, get control over these little distributors! People call the little gy and say oh, 800 is the best you can do. Then they call 4wph and say he said 800, what can you do for me?

I dont think anybody is out there today to help the little guy.

Kinda puts people like Scott in a bad position cause if he boycots that puts him in a bad position too.

There are people out there who sell below warns prices, they do it under cover and it looks really shady.

In fact the guy I use when I first talked to him he only had a web based email that did not use his real name! I was not going to do it but since he took credit cards my buddie said who cares it can just be disputed. turns out it is a major shop and he can't correctly sell for less without losing his licence. Has warantee and everything.

M12000 was 850 delivered, HS9500i was 729

So whatever. As far as I am concerned for what I do (which is really not that much) no "recreational" winches are sufficient. Took several broken winches to convince me of this. Now it better have a mechanical PTO or a giant hydraulic pump to go on my rig.

Ron

PS no I will not give out his info

This is illegal and IS price fixing.

Warn cannot tell its resellers what prices they may charge for a product, nor can they threaten to end the supply of product for their resellers if they sell at the price they want. It's pretty cut and dried.

Now I am sure that Warn resellers buy product with pricing based upon volume. So 4WPW is probably buying cheaper than the mom and pop store (4WPW is notorious for beating up their vendors for the best pricing. It's called "margin enhancement"). However, the mom and pop store has less overhead and can set up a web site or ebay site and move warns all day long, providing the cheapest price to the end user. THis is what capitalism is all about: Make markets the most effecient and drive customers to the best value. Warn is tampering with this with this illegal act of policing its resellers.

A legal way for Warn to ensure a stable market price is to offer resellers advertising funding (usually 3-10% of wholesale selling price) that they can tap into IF they don't drop below Minimum Advertised Pricing (MAP). Don't play ball, don't get the funding.

I have a lot of experience in selling product in reseller channels. If someone were to fax me a copy of this policy, I can get it into a FTC attorney's hands in Portland pretty quickly.

SeanP

Wow there's a lot of confusion. As a small dealer I as I'm sure others complained to Warn that by letting the biggies sell stuff cheaply it made it so I had to sell other brands instead of Warn. I had to pay "wholesale" what others payed retail. The myth of the smaller guy having lower overhead is bullshit. I pay tons more in overhead $ to sales $ than they do.

It sound like it sucks if you are the consumer, but think about it. Do you like dealing with the mega stores? Sure it's ok if you know what you want. What has happened in the market is you guys the consumers are paying less than "wholesale" Sounds good but it's going to make the big guys richer, and the little guys go away. I'm not saying you need to pay more, I'm saying the system needs a reform. I get newbies all the time in my store that have been told by a mega store they should buy a 3" body lift for they're new TJ, so they can go "offroad with bigger tires" This is the broken guy in front of you on the trail.

If Warn starts losing market share, and sales go down they will be required to lower prices. Simple economics. If you want buy a Ramsey, hell buy it from me, or the best idea find a place you feel comfortable with, buy as much of your stuff there as you can. In the long run if they are like me they will give you a great deal when they can, and will give you a fair price at other times. The good advice they will give you is worth more than a few bucks too. If the shop you choose sells widgets for $2 more than mega widget world ask them if they can match that price. By the way, there are other very well respected products I have agreed to not sell below a certain point too.

We've had to deal with a few companys that have what they call a "purchase agreement", it's the same shit about staying in there suggested price ranges...

Who knows...:confused:

Well since pretty much no Ma and Pa shop can buy direct from Warn, this policy is supposed to keep the Four Wheel Parts types from selling a 9000i to an end consumer for less than the Ma and Pa shop can buy it from their wholesale distributor. They are trying to level the field, even as far as what retailers sell for. I am sure that they are also hoping that other winch producers will follow suit and quit whoring up the market with their products and compete on the merits of the product rather than on the price. But I can tell you that if you read the policy carefully, there are still ways to sell Warn winches for a good price. It looks like they are only enforcing the policy on seven winches, and if I remember correctly they make a few more than that.

Scott,
I can tell you this from experience, that unless you can convince Warn that there is not enough wholesale distributors in your area (and there are a few big guns in your neck of the woods) and come up with the $$ for a VERY VERY big initial stocking order, that the odds of buying direct is slim.

for what its worth, this is EXACTLY why i sold my car audo business. i was selling $150,000 to $200,000 a month in car audio (including installs).. but in a smaller town. with best buy, circuit city, and other chain stores picking up the same lines i carried, and then selling them at less than i could buy them for... and i was going direct or throught distribution also.

my install work carried the store for a while, but then i went online with it... and promptly got told NO by sony, MTX, kicker, and phoenix gold. they didnt want thier hardware whored out on the internet by the little guy.. they wanted it whored out at a retail store by some $8 an hour moron in a blue shirt.

so i sold the business.. wasnt worth the hassle anymore...

Don't you guys know WARN is under new management. It's no longer about customer service... its about making every penny they can.

Personally Scott... I would take your 4 page agreement, w/ a written statement by you and send it in to the attorney general for your state. (It's amazing what a AG will do to a company's attitude) They ARE price fixing, and penalizing you for breaking their prices.

Second, go figure out how to make a 12V powered hydraulic pump run in line with a power steering box. So when the engine is dead a MileMarker will still operate at full power and hopefully pull less amps. Go talk to Milemarker, tell them your plan to destroy warn and go have fun, cause I bet they would help. ;)

One thing to keep in mind when considering warns protection of their market share, is that Winchs are not like toilet paper. You don't need a new one, once a week, even if they were only 5 bucks.

There has been allot of good info form many people on this thread, but there is nothing illegal about what Warn is doing. CTM does the same thing. You cannot sell there U joints for less that 5% under suggested retail. ($7.50 on a $150 u joint) Manufactures have to do this to keep there dealers happy. It would not be in Warns best interest to have 5 or 6 distributors selling 75% or more of there winches. I am suprised to hear a small shop complaining about a company setting a min. price. I was in the gas staion business for many years and I argued with the oil company because they did the opposite, if I raised my street price they raised my wholesale price.

Just my 2 cents

Originally posted by lowrider
There has been allot of good info form many people on this thread, but there is nothing illegal about what Warn is doing.

There have been a number of people who have commented that they don't think this is legal.

I've chatted with a few people with more experience in business than I have, and have concluded that:
1) Warn is much bigger than I am, and they have more money.
2) It's probably not illegal.
3) Warn can tell me to go piss on the electric fence, and there's nothing I can do about it.

My opinion is, this kind of influence on pricing, while perhaps not illegal, is scummy, and ultimately, hurts the final customer. Warn is very hush-hush with this policy--most shops don't even find out it exists until somebody complains about them, and Warn calls to say "stop it or we'll stop selling to you". By posting it on the Internet, my intent was (and still is) to shame Warn into stopping this practice. If I could sell winches at whatever price I wanted, I could sell them at a (very small) profit--because of Warn's price policy, I have to sell them at a much higher profit (which is nice, except that because of wholesalers, I can't sell any at that price) and ultimately, the customer ends up paying more for the same product.

Bottom line--I'd rather sell a hundred winches that I only make $10 apiece on, than no winches that I make $100 apiece on. Because of Warn's policy, I'm selling no winches that I make $100 on--nobody's willing to pay what Warn says I have to charge. I can't blame them--I wouldn't either.

And yes, I know, it's weird to see a small shop complaining about this policy, but the reality is, the policy exists to protect places like 4WPW's margins. If I price something at $700 that 4WPW sells too, they'll pricematch my $700 price, but they'd rather sell the product at $800. Since I don't have a 50k square foot warehouse or millions of dollars in inventory, I don't need to make as much as they do--they make up for it in quantity, but wouldn't you rather have $800 than $700?

If you wanted to be more competitive with WARN pricing, you could always become an authorized dealer and stock $50K of WARN items:rasta:

Makes it a little difficult for a Ma and Pop place to compete.

Originally posted by JSSN
If you wanted to be more competitive with WARN pricing, you could always become an authorized dealer and stock $50K of WARN items:rasta:
Makes it a little difficult for a Ma and Pop place to compete.

No, I can't even do that. Warn won't let me. Even if I had $50k (I don't, but I didn't tell them that). I already asked. They're "already overdistributed in the Colorado market". And they're back to the standard "thing" of not returning my phone calls too.

Even if I wanted to be more competitive, though, Warn won't let me. Their policy price dictates that I sell above my current cost or get cut off--so instead of making $100 apiece on the zero winches I can currently sell at that policy price, I could potentially make $250 apiece (but still sell zero winches, and be paying interest on the $50k I had to borrow in order to buy all those winches to make that $250 apiece) and have a shop full of winches that I'm not allowed to sell at a fair price.

Oh, yeah... Warn's area rep also told me that I couldn't buy in with them because they have a company policy that forbids them selling direct to "dot-com's"--I'd have to have a "real store". My response: "I have a real store--it's not very big, but it's a real store. You should stop by sometime and see it." Strangely enough, I'm not interesting enough to warrant visiting, either.

Hey, Warn... if you *are* reading this... your policy makes it very easy, pricewise, for me to sell Ramsey and Superwinch. Was that the desired outcome?

Scott,

I'm in the same situation as you, but here's the deal. You are not Warn's direct customer so you do not have to follow the same rules as say FWPW. The phone call you got was because someone from another shop complained about your prices to Warn. What can they do to you.....Can't not sell you winches...you don't buy from them anyway.

The only action Warn has is to the WD that sells to you. As long as he doesn't advertise below the Warn low limit and doesn't sell to you below I believe is 36 back of list or 20 back of Jobber on a regular deal, he's ok too. Warn does allow 2nd level deals of 1500.00 or more at a 20 and 5 and 2500.00 at 20 and a 10. 5000 at 20 and 10 and 5. If you buying deeper then that, you don't want to buy from warn direct, you're getting the long deal with the headaches.

I'd love to know who your WD is. Feel free to PM me if you want to share info.

Old Scout is right. There's always a way around this. Free parts with the purchase of a winch. That's what FWPW and almost everyone else does...no big deal to do that.

Warn's price program has been in effect as long as I can remember, maybe 15 years or more. Keeps the oversea customers from dumping product and driving people out of the market.

see ya,

tony k

Originally posted by TONY K
Keeps the oversea customers from dumping product and driving people out of the market.



It also keeps retailers from selling so far below wholesale that other shops cant afford the loss. Sales like this normally generate more sales for the cheap guys cause they get a reputation of being cheap.. but in reality only are cheap on a few popular products. The end result can even be the loss of that product cause its value was so deflated. This happens in more than just the 4wd industry. To protect distributors and a product line a lot of companies have agreements to fall within a price range. Simple business. And certainley nothing new under the sun.

Originally posted by TONY K
I'm in the same situation as you, but here's the deal. You are not Warn's direct customer so you do not have to follow the same rules as say FWPW. The phone call you got was because someone from another shop complained about your prices to Warn. What can they do to you.....Can't not sell you winches...you don't buy from them anyway.
The only action Warn has is to the WD that sells to you. As long as he doesn't advertise below the Warn low limit and doesn't sell to you below I believe is 36 back of list or 20 back of Jobber on a regular deal, he's ok too.

According to the policy, Warn will refuse to sell to that wholesaler, to punish them for selling to me, if I violate that policy. If they don't know who's selling to me (there are three wholesalers in the Denver area--Transamerican aka 4WPW, Competition Specialties, and Reliable--Keystone had a warehouse here, but supposedly closed it) they're still kinda screwed on retaliation, but it only takes about fifteen minutes for the rep to call the big players and tell them not to sell me winches under penalty of being cut off.

Transamerican and Comp Specialties both offer a decent deal on winches, but the Carparts.com deals are usually below my cost.

More irritating is that I know who complained... the funny thing is, about the only stuff I sell that he sells, is the stuff I don't even *want* to sell--I just get "stuck" with selling it because I run "a 4WD shop". But the same shop owner has tried to get me cut off at two wholesalers and at Warn. The same shop has violated Warn's price policy so many times, it's not even funny... even done it with the Warn rep watching. Literally. From 15 feet.

Advanced Adpaters and ARB have the same deal. We advertise one price but if you call we can tell you the real - lower price.

It's just stupid I think. Price fixing, pure and simple.

I would like to see warn and all the others supply product at the same cost to wholesellers, be it 10 units or 1000. Then let the market decide how much markup is needed. I don't want to buy my winch from wallmart. I want to go to a local shop to get it.

I was thinking about this a lot last night (gotta stop doing that--makes it tough to get a decent night's sleep) and a few things occurred to me.

Warn's company policy is not law. I can't be arrested or sued for breaking it.
I'm not Warn's customer. They can't stop selling to me--they never started.
There's four wholesalers and a handful of others who will sell to me below what I think is a reasonable price on a product.
Their threat of stopping shipments of product to a wholesaler who supplies me--would require stopping all sales to all wholesalers.
Stopping sales to all wholesalers would mean Warn is out of business.
Telling a wholesaler not to sell to me--if they actually do what Warn asks--is "conspiracy to restrain trade". That's a felony.
Being that Warn is in a different state than the wholesalers, and a different state than me, it's prosecutable at the federal level.

I wonder if Warn realizes this.

All the Warn dealers who buy direct from Warn, can't get in on this deal--all the little guys who have to buy from a wholesaler, would seem to be exempt from Warn's policy, due to the fact that the only way they can fully enforce it, is to close shop. Warn can stop shipping to a dealer who violates the policy--but they can't legally stop a wholesaler from selling to a smaller dealer who violates it. They can stop selling to that wholesaler, but that'd open the door to a big ugly lawsuit from the wholesaler, as they've probably got a contractual agreement on price and delivery... and I've still got three more wholesalers, and a half-dozen big retailers, to buy from, so it doesn't impact me anyway.

Originally posted by Chris Geiger
I don't want to buy my winch from wallmart. I want to go to a local shop to get it.

I feel the same way! I buy ANYTHING I can through a 4x4 shop even if it means I pay a little more in shipping or something. As long as the shop is trying hard for the wheelers Ill try hard for the shops to shop from them:D

Example: I could have bought a highjack lift from a local place for who knows how much. Why dont I know? Cause I didnt look, I just called Rockstomper and ordered it.

(BTW came in the other day, muchos gracias:D)

Then I called Kongs and ordered some steering arms (gave up trying to make my own.)

Next week I'm callin All-Pro to order my dual case adaptor (thanks for that price quote Chris).

Week after that comes shafts from Jess:D

SUPPORT THE SHOPS!:D:D (fabricate what you can)

Scott, I don't know you from Adam but here goes.

Fawk'em, WARN that is. It is obvious that you and Warn are not good for each other. Blow your remaining sheet out the door and move onto a new product. You spinning your wheels and diverting resources from other areas dealing with this.

Pick up a new line and push, push it real good. Warn is not the end all to be all. Tell your customers why you don't sell Warn, and how your new product line stacks up against Warn.
2 cents

Joe

Originally posted by jdjanda
Fawk'em, WARN that is. It is obvious that you and Warn are not good for each other. Blow your remaining sheet out the door and move onto a new product. You spinning your wheels and diverting resources from other areas dealing with this.
Pick up a new line and push, push it real good. Warn is not the end all to be all. Tell your customers why you don't sell Warn, and how your new product line stacks up against Warn.

Good point, Joe. And some of what I was contemplating last night too... all this does is generate a headache for me, and I've got better things to do (wrestle with the dog, take the wife out for a walk in the park, whatever) than headache over it.

Thanks for the "back to reality" side of things. :)

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper


Good point, Joe. And some of what I was contemplating last night too... all this does is generate a headache for me, and I've got better things to do (wrestle with the dog, take the wife out for a walk in the park, whatever) than headache over it.

Thanks for the "back to reality" side of things. :)

I know why you want to sell it, it's Warn about sells it's self. But if you can find another line, that your making 4x the money off each sell, then you only have to sell 1 to every 4 Warns.

Now go kick the kids, and hug the dog, oops other way around :p

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper


Good point, Joe. And some of what I was contemplating last night too... all this does is generate a headache for me, and I've got better things to do (wrestle with the dog, take the wife out for a walk in the park, whatever) than headache over it.

Thanks for the "back to reality" side of things. :)

You also gotta figure out how to make them hydraulic winches run off a 12V hydraulic motor. ;)

(hint hint... I don't have time, nor energy to figure it out... but heck.. if you can, Warn *could* be in trouble. Problem is Warn, probably most electric winches are all pieces of shit when it comes to reliability when used in/under water/mud.)

Originally posted by twaldher
You also gotta figure out how to make them hydraulic winches run off a 12V hydraulic motor. ;)
(hint hint... I don't have time, nor energy to figure it out... but heck.. if you can, Warn *could* be in trouble. Problem is Warn, probably most electric winches are all pieces of shit when it comes to reliability when used in/under water/mud.)

I already know how to do that... my bender and my press are both 12V battery powered, hydraulic. Catch is finding an electric motor that can take the duty cycle I'd want out of it.

Optimal (IMHO) is a PTO hydro pump with a MileMarker winch body and a directional valve... build it right, and it can pull 100 feet a minute at 8000 pounds... but you might not have any engine power left to actually drive the tires. :)

With a swash plate or similar flow control valve, you could have it relatively controlled, too... but you're already into the $1400 range without, from what I've just described.

They do make a beltdrive clutched hydro pump--Northern Tool sells 'em. Spendy ($300ish?) but that (or something like it) would be the ticket for hydro steer, hydroboost, and hydro winch.

Dang Scott!!! That sounds like way more of a headache then it's worth! If I was you I would sell used Warn stuff but I would specialize in Ramsey or Milemaker, or both! Honestly I have a Ramsey knock-off sitting on my Garage floor that I will be putting on my Explorer.

Smaller shops like Scott's rule! They are willing to talk to you about your Explorer that you want to do things to even though every other shop tells you that you should just buy a jeep.

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper


I already know how to do that... my bender and my press are both 12V battery powered, hydraulic. Catch is finding an electric motor that can take the duty cycle I'd want out of it.

Optimal (IMHO) is a PTO hydro pump with a MileMarker winch body and a directional valve... build it right, and it can pull 100 feet a minute at 8000 pounds... but you might not have any engine power left to actually drive the tires. :)

With a swash plate or similar flow control valve, you could have it relatively controlled, too... but you're already into the $1400 range without, from what I've just described.

They do make a beltdrive clutched hydro pump--Northern Tool sells 'em. Spendy ($300ish?) but that (or something like it) would be the ticket for hydro steer, hydroboost, and hydro winch.

Yes.. but you missed the point. You need the milemarker to run WITHOUT the engine running. So PTO and belt driven are out.

How big are those 12V hydrualic pumps? Do they flow 3.5gpm@1500psi? (of course, what is the duty cycle on them?)

Originally posted by twaldher


Yes.. but you missed the point. You need the milemarker to run WITHOUT the engine running. So PTO and belt driven are out.

How big are those 12V hydrualic pumps? Do they flow 3.5gpm@1500psi? (of course, what is the duty cycle on them?)

It's already been done Modified MM winch (http://www.sabreforce.com/prod82.htm)

Unfortunately the company that did the mod is no longer in biz, but not because of this product. It worked, The owner was very happy and excited about this product, other things required him to abandon the biz. The point is, it's been done and it worked.

Originally posted by twaldher
Yes.. but you missed the point. You need the milemarker to run WITHOUT the engine running. So PTO and belt driven are out.


Gotcha... you're right, I did miss the point.

How big are those 12V hydrualic pumps? Do they flow 3.5gpm@1500psi? (of course, what is the duty cycle on them?)

Found one that's 1.5gpm at 1600psi, 195 amp draw at full load.
I'm sure I can find one in about the 3-3.5gpm at 1500psi range, but it'll likely pull 400 amps, and cost $600. Do you genuinely neen 3.5gpm at 1500psi? That's a lot of horsepower, and a very heavy load for a 12V electric motor to deal with.

There are a lot of dual-stage pump setups out there, where you get plenty of pressure, or plenty of flow, but not both at the same time. Economizes on amp draw, basically behaves similarly to an electric winch--no load, it's fast, heavy load, it's slow, but not on the drive motor, just on the driven motor.

The one on my bender, is the better of the two--it'll run about ten minutes before it gets too hot and needs a cool off period. The one on the press, not as good (older motor, I think) and will only run about four minutes before it needs to cool. I think mine are in the 1-2gpm range, but I'm not sure.

Incidentally, I'm personally of the opinion that something specifically hydro powered and designed for that, is a better setup than a redesigned electric winch. Industrially, there are tons of true hydro winches out there, which may not have the flow rate thirst of what's been noted.

But a MM is a Hydro winch , with a mod to allow a elec hydro pump supply the power. I think you are correct in your assumption though... Better to start with a Hydro winch , than an electric one. When I was in AU a few weeks back for the Outback Challange, we saw all kinds of set ups on our felow racers. Full Hydro, twin motor 8274, Hydro converted 8274.

How often do you go out by your self? How often do you find the need to winch when your motor is not running? How far do you winch when you do and the motor is off?
All these questions and the answers work up to (at least for me) a Full Hydro winch being a good choice, if you have the room, and $$$$. Better duty cycle, will work longer under water or mud, with less resulting damage and clean up. Will end up (system for system) weighing about the same

According to the policy, Warn will refuse to sell to that wholesaler, to punish them for selling to me, if I violate that policy. If they don't know who's selling to me (there are three wholesalers in the Denver area--Transamerican aka 4WPW, Competition Specialties, and Reliable--Keystone had a warehouse here, but supposedly closed it) they're still kinda screwed on retaliation, but it only takes about fifteen minutes for the rep to call the big players and tell them not to sell me winches under penalty of being cut off.

Transamerican and Comp Specialties both offer a decent deal on winches, but the Carparts.com deals are usually below my cost.

More irritating is that I know who complained... the funny thing is, about the only stuff I sell that he sells, is the stuff I don't even *want* to sell--I just get "stuck" with selling it because I run "a 4WD shop". But the same shop owner has tried to get me cut off at two wholesalers and at Warn. The same shop has violated Warn's price policy so many times, it's not even funny... even done it with the Warn rep watching. Literally. From 15 feet.

Scott,

Carparts gets the winches from FWPW in Compton. Most are dropshipped direct to the customer (blind, no return label).
Carparts pays 15 back of J and gets a 2 % quick pay. That's it. If they sell cheaper then that, they are dumping product. Guess what, they can do that because they don't buy direct from Warn, just like you.

Warn and many others balance their sales programs to keep as many WD's happy as possible. That's all this is.

se eya,

tony k


sorry for the delay in this responce. I know the subject has changed. DSl down again, you wanna bitch about someone, try SBC Gobal. Daily uptimes counted in minutes not hours.

Well.. the 3.5gpm@1500psi is what is spec'd from Milemarker if my memory is right.

Question... if you find a 1500psi pump, that only flows say 1.2gpm would the milemarker still operate at full power, just 1/3 slower.

Of course.. the next problem.. the hyrdo pump is going to probably pull 150amps or so. So if your engine is dead and its a long pull.. you may or may not be better off. (yeah.. you would have to pull longer with slower line speed, but maybe pull less current than an electric at near full load over less time. Might be an even trade off)

I don't know about all products sold, but many have a sort of "market price". There is usually a little varience in it, but not too much.

With my business, I sell to my distributors, then they sell to work shops, and then to the final consumer.

My business does not take a liking to people trying to "screw up the market" by low balling the other sellers. It will eventually lower market prices or just cause a lot of headaches for everyone.

For WARN it does seem a little odd, but unless they "honestly" told us the reason, we will never know.

JMO

Originally posted by Gordon


So if you create a new company called Rockstompah that is a wholly owned subsidiary of Rockstomper and it only sells Warn HS9500 and 8274 Winches, and offers a $100 rebate and free shipping on all products that it sells, then you would not be violating the policy since Rockstompah would offer that deal to all of it's customers on all of the products that it sells. :D

That's exactly what I was thinking! I guess engineers have some buisness sense also!

Price fixing it is.

Unless you don't take ownership of the winches?

Once you pays your money, they are yours, period.

Originally posted by scrout
Price fixing it is.

Unless you don't take ownership of the winches?

Once you pays your money, they are yours, period.



its not price fixing.


there are other alternatives in the marketplace, so its not price fixing.

nothing unusual about warn having MAP pricing....anyone ever wear a pair of Levi's or Dockers? Did you whine about your pants having set prices?

Of course not, that would be stupid and girly. But its the same exact principle.

some of it is also percieved value for the product too. everyone else about covered all the other stuff.
scott call h and direct him to this thread and see if he can address some of this.
might give em a chance to speek??
h has does a great job in all of his states to support this community. i bet he'd be able offer some clearification.

Goodyear tires dos the same thing . I know poeple that have Goodyear tire shops . Goodyear will sell them a tire for $40 and tell them they must sell the tire for $120 . The idea behind this is so every dealer has a fair shot . Becuase someone with alot of money could sell them at cut rate prices to cause another shops to close then the shop could jack up the prices . Warn is thinking the same thing . It may not be right . But its they ball and court . they make the rules . It sucks .

even though that policy sucks, i cant see how it actually surprizes anyone.
its the way american marking works.
milk something to the very bitter end, and if a new technology sneaks out, rape the consumer as long as you can.

the new "rock crawling" tires are a prime example.
BFG better suck me off and swallow if they want me to ever pay $400 a tire, for a radial at that.

but thats an example, like how many of you paid that price for krawlers or the 37 or 40" mt/r.

as a comsumer i just cannot play into that. i know 4x4 ($x$) is pay to play, yada, yada, yada.
but you/we have to draw the line somewhere.

price fixing blows, but it is the sad reality of this economy

Originally posted by mytzlflick
I had something like this explained to me before, lets say some company comes in and sells a lot of warn winches at ultimate bottom price, he sells a heck of a lot of winches right? now all your other dealers are not protected form this guy so they make squat, to boot everyone who wanted a winch now has one so you don't sell a whole lot of winches for six months.
if they keep the price fixed then sales are steady and production never has to meet a short term demand. just buy a different brand of winch, never liked warn anyways.

X'actly, also it keeps price errosion from occuring ( a sub category of above ), imagine if a bunch of dealers did sell at reduced prices, eventually the reduced price is what people were willing to pay, hence their margins on their products may go down ( or the quantity of product sold goes down as no one is willing to pay the higher price ) so either margin goes down or production goes down, either way profit suffers.

It makes economic sense for Warn, but smells like price fixing.... BUT price fixing prolly has some exacting like thing that has to happen, and you know Warn prolly has a few liaryers, oops I mean lawyers :D on staff, I bet,..... this smells like a dead fish, tastes like a dead fish, but a lawyer said it ain't dead yet so it ain't price fixin either ( prolly )

You know, when you think about it, Warns pricing is simply fantastic marketing. They basically control the ad prices so that the public 1. Views their product as the most expensive, therefore the best. 2. Feels like they got a great deal when they do call and get a few more bucks off.

If warn had a monopoly and were doing this, I am sure they would get their hand slapped ie Ma Bell. Otherwise, I don't have a problem with a private business dictating terms of a contract with their distributors. If you don't like it, don't sell warns.

I was aware of this... This is because (or at least in Canada) you have to pay to be a listed dealer for WARN products:flipoff2:. I was looking at starting my own company there BUY IN was HUGE and I was directed to buy from the local dealer which would have been my competition for the same product. They RATE FIX thier items to protect their dealers. I still think if the dealer is getting it for price X and he has to sell for price Y and only sells 3 a year but if he sells at price Z he sell 25 and makes more then why not? WARN is still getting X :flipoff2: for their product and they have more product out there.

I never did sell anything but I was really looking into starting and it is just WAY beyond my means right now.


Price fixing is everywhere....anyone travel alot notice how a Big Mac is basically the same price everywhere you go in the world just different money???


Can't wait for my new amsteel blue cable to get here for my M12000, re-ordered today:D

It it funny you brought this thead back up, the Optimum Value pricing program is long since dead.

As to the buy in, that has been that way for years. If you want to buy Warn direct, you have to be a distributor (ie you sell to retailers who in turn sell to consumers), and to insure this they have a set of requirements for you buy from them. No different than other manufacturers.

wow I cant believe I just spent 2 hours reading all this cr*p:D

IMHO.
This is a CAPITALISTIC country, after a business buys your (warns) sh*t they have all the right to sell it at whatever the fawk they want, or give it away for free! its not warns call.

Since warn is such a good company then they should lower the price for the wholesellers and distributers, so that the little guy and afford to buy in bulk too.

The whole point in business is to beat the next guy.

THIS IS AMERICA, CAPITALISM IS THE NAME OF THE GAME, IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT GET INTO IT. simple as that:flipoff2:
In my view Warn no right to do this (*hint COMMIE *hint*).

wow I cant believe I just spent 2 hours reading all this cr*p:D

IMHO.
This is a CAPITALISTIC country, after a business buys your (warns) sh*t they have all the right to sell it at whatever the fawk they want, or give it away for free! its not warns call.

Since warn is such a good company then they should lower the price for the wholesellers and distributers, so that the little guy and afford to buy in bulk too.

The whole point in business is to beat the next guy.

THIS IS AMERICA, CAPITALISM IS THE NAME OF THE GAME, IF YOU DONT LIKE IT, DONT GET INTO IT. simple as that:flipoff2:
In my view Warn no right to do this (*hint COMMIE *hint*).

**flame suit on**:flipoff2:

Holy double post Batman.

If you think for a minute that Warn is the only company that has tried this, you are in for a rude awaking. Cars, TVs, Tires, Microwaves, Music, Movies, and Groceries are all price fixed in one way or another.

Originally posted by Blackjack
It it funny you brought this thead back up, the Optimum Value pricing program is long since dead.

That's what I was thinking. Did everyone miss the fact that
THIS THREAD IS A YEAR OLD?

and the policy was put to rest lat march-ish
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by vb
and the policy was put to rest lat march-ish
:rolleyes:

Good to hear. Since "H" doesn't ever call me, even to return a call, unless I'm breaking the rules, it's nice to know that I have one less rule to break. :) 'Course, he's had very little reason to call me, being that I'm not moving his stuff.

As somebody else already mentioned, and as I think I noted some time ago, I don't sell Warn product because of stuff like this. Nothing to do with quality (I have their winch on my rig, and I had to buy it just like everyone else), just to do with politics.

I'm a little curious as to *why* this was dredged up from so long ago.

And I'd like to think that the public knowing about distasteful policies like this, at least got back to Warn and helped effect that change... but that's probably overestimating the influence of P4x4.

no idea. guess its time to go back and look at all the dates and see who plucked it out of the arcives

one year and 11 days after the last post gfi started it back up.

????????????????