I've searched, find a lot of data, but nothing conclusive.

I've broken the front axle differential pin. 6 months after my rear :rolleyes: On the DD, while the comp/play truck is still not completed. :mad3:
My friend is going the Toy diff route, so has a suprlus ARB, which I think will complement the tru trac in rear, if I put it in front.

My RRC is a non ABS 10-spliner.

Can I fit standard 24-spline half shafts?
Do they fit my CV's?
Do I need to change CV's, stub axles and all?
Better off with custom 24-spline inner and "10spline-CV" outer half shafts?

I do not expect to need the strength of after market half shafts in front, since the CV is expected to act fuse...Just want to get the ARB in there as simply and cheaply as possible and be done with it.

To remind you this is a daily driver which sees 7.50-16 Michelin XCL as off road tires and 245/75-16 BFG TracEdge as daily driver tires. Some towing, some heavy right foot non-hardcore off roading.

Also wrt the friend. I will need to build/supply a standard rear diff for a 1998 24-spline disco in exchange for the ARB. Can I just take a 10-spliner and change the spider gears? Any other differences in the diffs? Part numbers please!

Tobias

tobias - i think the easiest and least expensive way out of your predicament is to find a boneyard disco I complete axle. take out the diff and give it to your buddy. with the axle stripped down, swap it onto your rangie then. there are minor differences but it will bolt up. after getting it back on, then fit the 24sp ARB, and refit the stock bits. this also lets you recondition the entire axle and all it's parts off the truck i the warmth of the garage :D

if you want to stay with your rangie housing, there's a chance that ashcroft make a 24spline diff-end to early rangie CV shaft. i can't remember if the early rangie are 23spl like the AEU2522 cv's (aka 110 cv's) . i have the 24/23 spline ashcroft shafts hooked up to the truetrac on my rig, and 2522's. find an ex-MoD defender, and source the stub axle, CV's, hubs, and drive flanges. the brake disc from your rangie will bolt onto the 110 hub, and all you have left then is to put it all together. this is how i did mine and it worked out wonderfully. if you do not use the MoD bits and try to keep your rangie stub axle, you will need to source aftermarket drive flanges and the elusive oil impregnated brass bush to fit everything up.

hope this helps

You will need axleshafts which are 24 spline at the diff end and 23 spline at the CV end. This is a standard off-the-shelf aftermarket HD shaft. If you want to find a set of genuine shafts that will work, they will need to come out of something heavy duty. Think mil-spec 110 or 127. Most likely early 90's post-10 spline but pre-ABS. I can not come up with specific model years.

Sea/64 rover:
Educate me please. Why coultdn't one replace the third member, halfshafts, CV joints and drive flanges from a 24-spline truck? Maybe stub axles?

I'm gonna have to tear apart a non-ABS truck to see how they're different.

PT

Sea/64 rover:
Educate me please. Why coultdn't one replace the third member, halfshafts, CV joints and drive flanges from a 24-spline truck? Maybe stub axles?

I'm gonna have to tear apart a non-ABS truck to see how they're different.

PT

i was just thinking more about cost - all those parts purchased separately is probably going to be more money than a used complete axle assembly. I've been told that the non-ABS stub axle and hubs don't work with the disco 32 spline cv's.

in EITHER case - that's an awful lot of work to downgrade cv bits in support of a 24spline ARB. looks like Adam is spot-on with the 23/24 spline inners working on the early rangie CV's. i didn't realize this myself, although it would have been as much work to swap these in to my ABS rig as the 2522's so i didn't really pay attention :flipoff2:

in EITHER case - that's an awful lot of work to downgrade cv bits in support of a 24spline ARB. looks like Adam is spot-on with the 23/24 spline inners working on the early rangie CV's. i didn't realize this myself, although it would have been as much work to swap these in to my ABS rig as the 2522's so i didn't really pay attention :flipoff2:

OK, educate me again (please). Downgrade? Why are the ABS CVs considered weaker?

What are the differences between the various components 10 and 24 spline ABS vs 10 spline, non-ABS?

Axles, inner spline count, 10, outer, ?

Drive flange spline count, ?

Thanx for enlightening me!

Early Range Rover CVs are the exact same thing as the beefy AEU2522s, EXCEPT that they are designed to use a separate stub axle shaft which is 10 spline. The bell portion of the CV has a female 10 spline at the wheel side. The dimensions of the actual CV joint itself, though, is identical to the AEU2522.

The ABS CVs are considered weaker because they use a smaller diameter 32 spline star (and correlating inner axleshaft). The critical dimensions of the ABS CV are also smaller, although I do not have actual dimensions.

So, think of it like this:

AEU2522 "early" 110 CV joint: Large critical dimensions, 23 spline star, 24 spline stub shaft integral to CV bell.

"Early" Range Rover CV joint: Same as the AEU2522, but has a separate 10 spline stub shaft.

Later ABS CV: Smaller critical dimensions, smaller 32 spline star, 24 spline stub shaft integral to CV bell.

<< The dimensions of the actual CV joint itself, though, is identical to the AEU2522. >>

this is half correct - the star is (EDIT: only *slightly*) bigger on the 2522, and the inner ball bearings are smaller to suit. this is why it's slightly stronger than early rangie.

also, the suffix B ABS rangie CV's are nearly identical as well to the 2522's. I was a bit dissapointed when i got mine out and actually did a side by side comparison. i'm not exactly sure what's different between suffix A to suffix B, aside from the ABS slits on the bell. i think it was even 23 spline at the star. i'll have to go out and count it tomorrow.

Thanks for informative replies.
The bronze bush needed to fit an ashcroft shaft to my early rrc CV's, is it not the normal bronze bush I have? (or perhaps only the still earlier RRC's I have not looked at my '89 inner shaft's CV-end yet, I just ripped off the entire outer end) Just move it from my current shaft to the new shaft?

This time the pin has sheared i a 45 degree all the way around just inside the small cog wheel (planet wheel?) on both sides. No beatiful carnage, I heard the sun wheels fall down as I pulled the outer ends, complete with inner shafts, so I knew what had happened even before the third was out. Bu I "knew" that already, but kind of hoped it was just a CV.

Has anyone broken a nonABS CV wheeling with standard, single pin diff?
It seems the [pin in the] diff is so much weaker, but that is only based on my recent carnage in both rear and front.

My friend probably wants to hold on to his ARB after all, so a second TT is probably in the plans for this truck. Right now I have difficulty deciding between 10-spline and 24 spline.
I know it's stupid considering a 10-spline, but I'm hard pressed for time and this is a DD and not hard core wheeling truck after all. Sourcing elusive parts to make it work feels like too much hassle right now and a TT is not that expensive.

T

Tobias,
just an idea:
Put your rear diff in front keeping 10 splines and upgrade your rear with the ARB and Ashcroft shafts. I think you benefit more from 24 splines in the rear axle.

Peter
Austria-we don't have cangaroo's

Peter: After summer's carnage I already have a 24-spline Trutrac with Revor's shafts in rear, so I'm sure I'm strong enough there. besides a rear TT is not supposed to be used in front and on a DD I'm inclined to follow the manufacturers advice on this point.

T

O.K. Tobias, thats a different story.
I think Dave (Ashcroft) can provide their HD front halfshafts (early type 23/24 splines) with the bronce location collar fitted. You keep your cv's, the outer stub shaft will be your weak link then. As these are easily replaced it's a good solution.
We ran true trac's in front axles with good success. As being "soft" in operation they are easy on axels/cv's. No bad effects on road.
I personally prefer ARB's for ultimate traction though.

Peter

Is it possible to swap the third members, halfshafts, CV, and drive flanges to 24 spline?

I was under the impression this was doable.

PT

I've been running a TT in the front of an '89 RRC with 4.10 gears and 35"x 12.5" tyre's and stock 10spline axles, c/v's etc. I did this as all the stuff was used (customer donated) and I thought I'd experiment and see how well a Detroit rear and TT front would work in a Rover (as so many had said this set-up sucks badly on the road) anyhow, I guess my point is that although the truck gets wheeled pretty hard (east coast style) I've yet to break the stock axles or C/V's. I suppose that now I've said that they will explode in the driveway!
I have also upgraded early RR's to a heavy duty set-up ( Great Basin Rovers) that uses a 24 inner 23 outer spline axle with a hardened suffix A C/V and the separate 10 spline outer stub axle.
That set -up has yet to break and it gets unmercifully thrashed upon.

Matt Browne
Overland Engineering

Is it possible to swap the third members, halfshafts, CV, and drive flanges to 24 spline?

I was under the impression this was doable.

PT

Yes, but stock 24/23 spline inner axles are very rare - you need to buy aftermarket inners, but they are not uncommon (only fitted to armoured/military rovers).

When rover fitted 24 spline front 3rds, they changed the CV star spline from 23 spline to the tiny 32 spline 1.1" - which is no stronger than a 10 spline axle. That is why everyone is telling you that the ABS cv's are a downgrade.

The 2 best setups using as many stock parts rover as possible are either:
24 spline 3rd, 24/23 spline inners, R60665 CVs - early Range rover CV with 10 spline stub (the stub is the weak link and easy to change)
24 spline 3rd, 24/23 spline inners, AEU2522 CVs - aftermarket drive flanges are needed.

Doing either swap to a later model axle is not completely simple either, since the later model axles had narrower hub bearing spacings - so drive flanges need spacers between the hub and the flange.

If you have a metric diff housing the swap is straightforward, the ARB will fit, if you have an imperial then bearing spacers are needed and easily obtainable, I dont like using spacers so I fit a metric diff nose housing (some of the studs need changing as (IIRC) two studs are longer on the metric housing

Assuming you have an imperial axle then on the halfshaft front maxidrive do the MDEUNF drive flanges and inner axles, take the stub axles off the front axle and machine 6mm from the bronze thrust face (it doesnt weaken the stub) and fit an AEU2522 CV, combined with the Maxi kit will give you the strongest combo you can squeeze in without going Toy

If you do use the MDE UNF flanges then they are a tight fit on the CV, we ward the drive flange splines to get a push fit so when you break a CV its not a prob to fix in the field

Not sure if thats of any help ? :eek:

How do I tell a metric from imperial diff?
I have both, I'm sure.
All are stamped UNF on the edge of the crown wheel.
Some have metric bolts for the bearing caps for the carrier bearings, some have imperial bolts there. That's the only difference that's obvious, so I'm inclined to think that's the indicator to use.

Tobias

Hi Tobias

Measure the carrier bearings - the joys of the landrover parts bin means almost anything is possible but if you go on the bearing measurements you will get the right answer :smokin:

Cheers

Jez

Yes, but stock 24/23 spline inner axles are very rare - you need to buy aftermarket inners, but they are not uncommon (only fitted to armoured/military rovers).


OK, AFI and I have been talking about this (be afraid, very afraid) for both of our trucks. There are a few points that may make this an attractive swap if the strength difference is great enough.

Would aftermarket halfshafts as you described be less expensive (in the US) than having them made? Also, why couldn't one have short shafts made to go from the non-ABS CV to ABS drive flanges? The non-ABS drive flanges are hella expensive in the US (if bought new).

If this would work, it could be fairly inexpensive to have nearly the strength of the much-hailed AEU 2522s.

Again, IF one had new inner halfshafts made to mate with whatever third member (we're thinking about 24 spline third members) and to the non-ABS CV joints, and one were to have outer shafts made to mate with the non-ABS CV, a considerable cost savings could be realized. New non-ABS CVs seem to cost about half of the ABS CVs and are (as stated in this thread) considerably stronger.

If this is a feasible idea, I may be calling our friends in Portland, IN for some pricing... And, tearing apart Shopboy's '89 Rangie to cannibalize the CVs.

Thoughts?

PT

my thoughts: you are re-inventing the wheel for something that has very nearly been done before. but you are good at that. the cash and time you will spend figuring it all out though will definitely override any small cost benefits you might see from the setup. KISS.

my thoughts: you are re-inventing the wheel for something that has very nearly been done before. but you are good at that. the cash and time you will spend figuring it all out though will definitely override any small cost benefits you might see from the setup. KISS.

Thanx for the compliment Adam!:flipoff2:

What other method is there for doing this as inexpensively as I've described?

Halfshafts, custom made no more than $300

Used CVs and drive flanges/shafts from Shopboy's '89 Free

New CVs from Rovers North, $200 each (worst case)

No mods needed to swivels ar stub axles, all stock parts except the halfshafts which would likely not be the part to fail.

It looks to me as though I can have a front axle rotating assembly almost as strong as the AEU 2522s for the cost of halfshafts. Has anyone cryoed a set of non-ABS CVs?

How are you planning on getting the strength out of a non-ABS CV? You are still limited by the female 10 spline count on the bell of the CV. EVen if you did have a custom shaft made to go from this to the ABS drive flange, it would retain the 10 spline weakness and you might as well just run all off the shelf parts with a early RR 10 spline stub.

The inner axleshafts you need are not very expensive at all in the aftermarket, you can find them for less than $350 for the pair.

edit: I just checked and the Rovertracks front axles you need are $400 for the pair, i will see where else i can find them for less.

How are you planning on getting the strength out of a non-ABS CV? You are still limited by the female 10 spline count on the bell of the CV.

After re-reading your earlier posts in this thread, it appears as though you have contradicted yourself as you state that the non-ABS CVs are stronger than the ABS CVs.

If the non-ABS CVs are less expensive and are stronger, there is an advantage.

Unless I misread your earlier posts:flipoff2:

tell you what PT - i'll sell you my completely genuine, completely bolt on AEU2522 conversion setup with military blah blah blah and ashcroft inners for what I paid - about $650. i'll then take that *same* $650 and convert my shit to chromo 27 spline longs for $550 which includes both the inner shafts and the CV's. I'll then use the remaining $100 for misc. parts needed to sell my 3.54/truetrac rover chunk (which only has about 1k miles on it) and convert to toy diff.

We will meet somewhere with a hard trail. while you gloat about your fabulous all rover front-end and retorque the flanges, and cleanup the leaks from the highway trip i will be sipping a cool lemonade in preparation for the trail.

want to take bets who breaks first for the same money spent? *OR* do you want to be the guy with the toy shit, winching me around big farking rocks? :flipoff2:

you decide! I am open for either end of the deal here :grinpimp:

PT- the non-ABS CVs ARE stronger. But, I am strictly talking about the CV portion of the unit. The bell and stub shaft are two separate pieces, the stub shaft being 10 spline where it joins with the bell. How are you planning on circumventing this 10 spline junction to acquire the strength of a 24 spline shaft?

PT- the non-ABS CVs ARE stronger. But, I am strictly talking about the CV portion of the unit. The bell and stub shaft are two separate pieces, the stub shaft being 10 spline where it joins with the bell. How are you planning on circumventing this 10 spline junction to acquire the strength of a 24 spline shaft?
The "10 spline junction" is a good thing. That stubbyaxle is the part that breaks. Takes like no time to fix. Easy and cheap to find. KISS

PT, GBR has cryo'ed the early non ABS c/v's.

Matt Browne
Overland Engineering

Matt-

I agree, however Paul was talking about somehow joining the early non-ABS CV with an ABS 24 spline drive flange. I was trying to understand his reasoning in wanting to do this over just running the 10 spline stub shaft?

Here is a quote from Mike Smith, owner of one of the most proven comp rangies in OZ, if not the world - winner of the OBC, Malaysian RFC, etc... (note that they tried stock toyota CVs, and changed back after a few breakages - haven't run longfields due to cost).

I've found the older Rangie CV's the most durable, less brittle than new ones. The Haultech modification is the best reinforcement. Regarding the diffs, we should have a kit shortly using Toyota centres in the Rangie housing and 24 spline side gears in the ARB Airlockers for coupling to the durable Maxidrive axles. We suggest using 3.9, 4.1 or 4.3 Toyota diff ratios, depending on tyre size. We will use the reinforced Rangie CV's, even stock stndard they have got us through most events including Malaysia, OBC, NZ Dennys and Ateco. Broke one in the Tuff Truck but who didn't. Breakages normally occur when hitting something on full lock as the CV is in its weakest position, avoid that and they will last a long time. The Hautech modification fixes this weakness and you could also reduce your turning circle with the steering stops, this is a bit of extra insurance. Yours in 4Wheeling, Mike Smith

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=63028&start=30

If you read through the whole thread, Tony/RUFF reports that he can warp longfields beyond use because the material is too soft - anyone running them in the US had that problem?

PT - one of the benefits of the early rangie CV is that the 10 spline stub (with integral drive flange) usually breaks before the CV does, and over here these stubs cost almost nothing - there are literally millions of good second hand ones available. So for your setup to work, the stub you are using would need to be very cheap (and sacraficial). Mke smith went back to the old rangie CVs after trying toyota CVs and not liking them, since CV changing took a lot longer when a bell/cage broke (instead of just a replaceable stub).

Ben, thats exactly right, although I'm not sure why the Toy centers?
I've made that mod on several rigs with Rover centers and ARB's, TT's, Detroits, 24 spline. I use the GBR hardened suffix A CV's and have had no problems.

Adam, I stand corrected or misunderstood or somthing.
I just fixed an ARB that I think used to be yours, It had 50 -60 thou side run out!! Did you break a gear or what? Somone had thrown new gears in it and I put it in a customers truck.....wow.

Matt Browne
Overland Engineering

I was trying to understand his reasoning in wanting to do this over just running the 10 spline stub shaft?

New non-ABS drive flange/stub axles are more than $250/each (granted I haven't searched at all other than Rovers North).

I wonder if I could lop the end off the junk ABS CVs I have and have them splined to mate with the non-ABS CV???

PT

Adam, I stand corrected or misunderstood or somthing.
I just fixed an ARB that I think used to be yours, It had 50 -60 thou side run out!! Did you break a gear or what? Somone had thrown new gears in it and I put it in a customers truck.....wow.

Matt Browne
Overland Engineering

That ARB has an interesting story. I bought it used several years ago and paid Alan Eliot of Cityside Garage to rebuild it and install it into a third member for me. I picked up the completed diff from his shop, and trusting his work, installed it into the front axle of my Range Rover without checking the torque on the bolts. I put about 1500 street miles and probably a good 20 hours of trail use on it and while running MaBell and trying to climb a ledge I broke about 7 teeth off the ring gear. At the time I thought the breakage was odd, because there was almost no weight on the front end, I had an open 24 spline diff in the rear (which did not break), but yet I was somehow able to put enough torque on the front end to shear teeth off the ring gear.

After pulling it apart at home a few days later, I found one whole bearing cap had fallen off and that both bolts on the other cap were backing out. This would explain why the teeth broke... the whole damn diff was jumping around in the third member!! I had Alan rebuild it again and sold the whole deal to Grant after informing him of the story that it had. I guess it somehow passed through your hands again.

New non-ABS drive flange/stub axles are more than $250/each (granted I haven't searched at all other than Rovers North).

I wonder if I could lop the end off the junk ABS CVs I have and have them splined to mate with the non-ABS CV???

PT
PT,Had no idea those studs were so expensive. I carry 2 spares in the truck, should I start locking it?? Also have a friggin' milk crate full of them somwhere (complete with the correct spindles) from converting rigs to HD newer style ABS C/V's.

Adam, I'm suprised at Alan for setting up a diff that was so screwed (although I now have some good ammo to give him shite with)I had the diff apart to put 4.75 gears in it and couldn't get it even close to set up. Had to put a new end plate on it. It's fine now .
And just adding so as to not be too far off topic, Grant's RR has the old style C/V set-up that we have been discussing. Detroit rear ARB front 35" x 12.5" SSR's. No problems so far.

Don't throw out that milkcrate Matt, I might need a spare someday. Running part time in my Series coiler they sound like they should last forever, maybe I should get a front TT.

PT,Had no idea those studs were so expensive. I carry 2 spares in the truck, should I start locking it?? Also have a friggin' milk crate full of them somwhere (complete with the correct spindles) from converting rigs to HD newer style ABS C/V's.


You know, it's the old story about no easy answers (cue the Bob Weir).

The non-ABS CVs are apparently stronger, and they only cost $100/each at retail from the big parts houses (I'm sure Nathan could get us a better deal), the axles would be a piece of cake for any of the axle manufacturers, BUT, the drive flange/stub axles cost a king's ransom!

I believe I have two sets of these CVs, along with the rest of the axles. Perhaps someday, I can talk AFI into making some phone calls for pricing on axle shafts to fit the 24 spline inner and the CV outer... Of course, I know where there's yet another RRC that I could probably get for cheap, but Shopgrrl has put the skids on any more trucks until we move to Oregon (watch out Ike, here I come).

PT

Yeah PT, I think the 24/23 spline axles I use are Maxidrive. I buy the whole set-up from Great Basin Rovers for like $1400, but you still need to have your own 10spline stubbys. Lot's of money, but my customers don't seem to mind spending that kind of loot for somthing that has so far proven durable.

Of course being a cheap bastard, I am still running the 10/32? suffix B C/V's in my rig and even with the TT and 35"s it seems to hold up ok. One of these days I'll figure out how to find the time and money to build my own shite right!!

Matt Browne
Overland Engineering

Ben, thats exactly right, although I'm not sure why the Toy centers?
I've made that mod on several rigs with Rover centers and ARB's, TT's, Detroits, 24 spline. I use the GBR hardened suffix A CV's and have had no problems.


Matt - the toy centre is hypoid (rover spiral bevel), and has a large pinion. The toyota centre is therefore a lot stronger than the rover one (even though the toyota ring gear is 0.25" smaller diameter).

The smith brothers have broken A LOT of rover ring and pinions in comps over the years, including 2x "pegged" ring and pinions.



I wonder if I could lop the end off the junk ABS CVs I have and have them splined to mate with the non-ABS CV???


Paul - don't even think about this unless you are going to re-harden them. You will machine through the case hardening if you reduce the stub from 1.24" to 1.1" outer diameter, and end up with cheese sticks for stubs.

tobbjo, this is for the dd right? 10 spline TruTrac and call it a day. less cost, less hassle, and it will be fine on anything 33" and under.

Paul - don't even think about this unless you are going to re-harden them. You will machine through the case hardening if you reduce the stub from 1.24" to 1.1" outer diameter, and end up with cheese sticks for stubs.

One of the things that Fort Wayne still has a lot of is heavy manufacturing. One of my old environmental clients has heat treating facilities (the tenant of my rental house works for a foundry that has heat treat capabilites) and the furnace operator hangs out at my American Legion post and has offered to throw bits in the basket for me! It's a bolt factory! Additionally, a very good client is an engineer at a machine shop/factory with their own heat-treat facility... Lastly, I've done case hardening at home in the past.

I knew there was a reason for my keeping all of those worn out CV joints!:flipoff2:

One of the things that Fort Wayne still has a lot of is heavy manufacturing. One of my old environmental clients has heat treating facilities (the tenant of my rental house works for a foundry that has heat treat capabilites) and the furnace operator hangs out at my American Legion post and has offered to throw bits in the basket for me! It's a bolt factory! Additionally, a very good client is an engineer at a machine shop/factory with their own heat-treat facility... Lastly, I've done case hardening at home in the past.

I knew there was a reason for my keeping all of those worn out CV joints!:flipoff2:

OK, but I still think with your stock of old rangies and CB skills you can probably source stock (second hand) 10 spline stubs cheaper than you can machine, spline and heat treat them.

Bring back a few hundred pairs next time you go to the UK. You can probably pick them up for 5 pounds for the lot.

[QUOTE=ISUZUROVER]Matt - the toy centre is hypoid (rover spiral bevel), and has a large pinion. The toyota centre is therefore a lot stronger than the rover one (even though the toyota ring gear is 0.25" smaller diameter).

The smith brothers have broken A LOT of rover ring and pinions in comps over the years, including 2x "pegged" ring and pinions.


Ben,
Huh.....that makes sense. Which Toy diffs are we talking about? I hear things about this conversion frequently but have not given it much thought. Most of my customers would have me shot for thinking of somthing as blasphemous as a Toyota part being attached to a Rover. Personally I could give a shite if it's a good thing.

Matt Browne
Overland Engineering

V6/Turbo diffs. Standard Toyota fare. You can use factory e-lockers or ARB them. Like someone said...All the cool kids are doin' it!

Do a search...Lots of info here and elsewhere.

By the way, the newer style Tacoma/Tundra/Sequoia diffs are a bit beefier and have a one-piece bridged bearing cap. Anyone use a pair of these yet?

jim

tobbjo, this is for the dd right? 10 spline TruTrac and call it a day. less cost, less hassle, and it will be fine on anything 33" and under.

I'm hijacking my old thread back on track.
Thanks Red, that's what I wanted to hear and is what I'll do.

Turns out the junk pile third i threw in while I'm waiting for the TT had the howls! The pinion bearings are so worn I get a howling insode that makes it impossible to talk wneh driving faster than 90km/h...

T