Hello fellow mog people. I need everyone's input here. I'm finally building up my junkyard 404 in to an economical (minnimal modification) crawler. I'd like everyones/anyones opininon on what spring configureation works well. I'd like to use the Rancho 9012's I already have and there will be a minnimal bed on the rear (mostly an open frame to house tire, tools, batts, extra wieght, etc.). I'd appretiate specifics, (what year/make/model of the doner vehicle etc.)
Thanks -James

I'm in the process of experimenting with springs myself. Obviously its going to depend on how you setup your rig b/c the weight can differ greatly. I just got through putting rubicon express 5.5" springs in the back and I moved the rear springs to the front. I think the rear springs may have raised it a little too much but I haven't had an opportunity to play with it yet. You need to get with puffdragon, he's there in the same town and he's got alot of experience doing mods on mogs. There are a ton of unimogs in that part of the country, you guys need to let us in on the secret.:flipoff2: In the future I want to try an airbag suspension. It can be done reasonable and there are bags out there that have a ton travel. I say go to pick in pull and started experimenting with any spring that looks good.

No body listens to me Dukguy!!! Ive only been doing this stuff for a living for how long now.

Try Ford Aerostar van rear springs. I usually use the ones rated for tow package. They are a bolt in application.
They will compress to about 8" and stretch to 28.5" Relocation of shock mountings will be necessary for full travel. Works very well.
I hope this helps.

Thanks Tyson, I was hopeing you would hop on board w/ this discussion. I remeber your 404 working very well in Moab a few years ago. -James Opel

seriously.. run down the street to puff's place and gain some enlightenment.


welcome to 'burque by the way. you new in town or just to the board?

No, Sceep hes been here awhile. Nice guy, only met him twice so far, but I think Id wheel with him. He has a pretty decent blue 416. Hardly ever see it, actually, i have only seen it twice Go figure. Actually, I think I saw it down in one of the canyons in las cruses.

Anyway, I really feel the aerostar coils are way to soft. I beleive they are around 100-130lbs per inch. The typical 404.1 needs at least a 200lb spring rate to be truely stable. Thats not to say that tysons truck didnt kick ass, but side hilling was likely a bit hairy in relative terms. It all depends on what you think is a bad ass ride. Some people like to flex all over the place, and think a roll over angle of 35-40 degrees is ok, and its just a top heavy unimog. I gurantee with aerostar coils, you could never follow me on some of the lines I take. Its normal for me to be over 50 degrees in my mog.

Ill put it in simmple terms you all can relate to.

Its like premature ejaculation. Alot of guys have this problem in bed and with their trucks. Basically, when flexing on say flat ground you ideally want the front and back axles to articulate at an even rate. This can really be done with any spring rate. But try lifting only one axle with an uber light spring rate, and you will find that one axle will reach full articualtion very fast and cause the truck to have serious body roll. Its because the suspension compressed to fast due to the lack of load needed to get it their. This can really be seen while going up or down hills off camber. Again on flat ground any spring rate will work so to speak, but once you start throwing a few degrees into the trail, the truck will start to feel more unstable, and eventually could roll much easier. The reason it will roll easier is simple. As your say going down a 45 degree slop, and you hit a small 12" ledge, the truck will unload quickly on the first tire going down the ledge. This unloading force can be great enough to force the CG of the truck to far over the front tires, and flop the truck. This can be fixed to an extnet with higher shock valveing, but that will only delay the action of the super soft spring. Now, im sure tyson or the liek will come in and say well my truck does fine in that situation. Well, agreed but that is because they all tend to have an appropriate spring rate in the front ie moving the rear 300+lb springs to the front axle. This is a somewhat appropriate spring rate for the front, I would go lower but thats for later. So, now you have all these bad handleing charateristics in the rear only. You cannot feel the rear like you do the front, so you tend not to realize how poor it handles. especially if your sitting directly over the front axle. But it effects you all the time when your climbing hills and water falls.

In short, the light ass springs will work just fine for the majority of people, but I am not the majority, and I know what makes a good hard core rock crawler and I will not settle for half assed.

Puff,

Thanks for the explanation why the Aerostar springs are too light but can you comment on a suitable spring to use in the 200lbs rate.

I wish I had a good junk yard spring for you guys but I do not. Most TJ rear springs aftermarket of course should be pretty close to 200lbs. I would of course check with the manufacturer. The 4-5" lift springs seem to be around the right ride height. Dukguy just put some Tj springs on his rear, and I think is saying the 5" might be to tall.

I will try to check on Tj spring rates. They are bound to be close to rover spring rates, which are typically in the 220lb range.

I was thinking the Wild Horses EB front coil springs might do the trick. I see them on ebay from time to time. I guess you could always buy new springs made to order, kinda like they do with coilovers.

Coil overs are the best idea on a unimog, but most mog owners will not pony up the cash. And EB springs will require new spring perches, which will be a major hassle to most mog owners, so bolt in options are the best.

Heh Heh Heh! Thats pretty good Puff. There is some truth to what you say. My first rig sat on TJ coils. I personally have not expierienced any ill effects of using Aero springs in the rear, and not for a lack of trying. There is one thing I know though. Just when you think you got it all figured out, some silly ass piece of not knowing any better eats your lunch on the trail. And then you have to start all over again.:emb3:
Thats life I guess.

Like I said, the aerostar coils work, but does the truck work as well as it could. But then again, the trails I wheel are a little beyond the average Unimog owner.

I guess I need to start looking at how to shoehorn a set of coil overs in the front.

Just as a note, the manual for the 404.1 shows these rates These do not mean a whole lot for us and are just an FYI

Front springs 468lbs 100kg @ 12mm 11.1free
Rear main springs 338lbs 100kg @ 16.7mm 13.7"free
Rear aux springs 73lbs 10kg @ 7.65mm

Here is some more info but for my own good most likely

Stock weight 5952lbs-6415lbs depending on version
Approx weight of front axle (dry) 529lbs
Approx weight of rear axle (dry) 485lbs

404.0 Stock Doka

Front
Perch to perch 9"
Travel 3.5"

Rear
Perch to perch 12"
Travel 5"

404.1 est weight 5200lbs
lifted rear spring in front dodge 1/2T rear

Front
Perch to perch 10"
Travel 5.5"

Rear
Perch to perch 14"
Travel 6"-7"

404spring 404lift 404springrate

Thanks for the info Puff, If I understand this correctly, You have moved the stock rear springts to the front and are using Dodge 1/2 ton springs in the rear of your extreme unimog crawler. Am I reading this correctly?
Thanks, Tyson

Yes, you are reading it right. The dodge springs ar from a 99' model I think. they are slightly softer rate than the original rear springs.

And yes I have run upper hel etc. Which are not really that hard. Come to think of it, I have run every obstical I have seen on unimog video that took place in moab etc. All were easy. I have also run every Arca obstical in Las Cruses. My truck works very well, but could work alot better if I replaced the springs with the right rates. etc. Right now I max out rancho 9012's (13") in the rear, and the front comes within a couple of inches of maxing out the same 9012 shock. Typically, I can handle off camber spots better than most non comp trail rigs. Not meaning to come off as being defensive, I just want to establish that i am not some web wheelin unimog pussy. Because typically when a unimog owners talks about 4 wheeling and using his lockers, he was running a pretty smooth trail that you could get a 2wd ranger through.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=83170&stc=1&d=1063206371

Nice shot Puff, Looks like my idea of a good time!
But the temptation is to great:D Is that picture supposed to reinforce the claims of stability? Just playn.
Sorry for prolonging this difference of opinion, my only point would be that there are to many variables (such as driving personality) for any one set up to be the only and best for extreme crawling. Just look at all the differing approaches to comp buggies. It is an evolution of ideas, not a soap box.
Im done, sorry for the lack of technical merit.
p.s. I would be happy to wheel with you sometime if you felt like showing me the local play ground.

...Because typically when a unimog owners talks about 4 wheeling and using his lockers, he was running a pretty smooth trail that you could get a 2wd ranger through....

Now that nail was just hit perfectly square on the head with a blow that speaks volums.

That was backing out of an obstical that I was sitting around 80 degrees on my side. I made it to about 60 or so untill the tires gave in and i slipped into the crack. Your right, their are many options for great setups, but their is a very solid formula for building very stable and capable trucks. Their is a very solid math behind what works. But by nature rock crawling changes every minute, and what works well in one situation does not work as well in others. Its all about compromise in the end. What feels good to you works for you. I will say this, you can go supper soft on the spring rate, if you use sway bars made for crawling. This can make for a very tunable suspension.

AGREED! :usa:

I know this is all about 404's but since everybody seems to have reached agreeable conclusions, I'd like to throw in the same spring question, but for the 416's. Any suggestions?

Same rules apply to a 416, but the extra weight requires a bit more spring rate to keep things stable.

I understand that, I was looking for a aerostar type idea, something a lot softer that I could almost just swap in, but thanks.

If you jsut want to wap in springs and se what happens, Sky Jacker has some 18" 235lbs TJ springs that woudl bolt right in, and give you a super soft pring rate compared to the stock springs. With a little math, you could get them setup front and rear.

Aaron O, I have no hands on experience with tweaking a 416 but I believe some have tried the rears out of a 404.1 with some success. I would look at the full size suv market, such as the Ford Excursion. What I like to see in a good doner spring is a tappered guage spring. In other words, on one end you have the maximum diameter of wire, say 5/8" which extends approx 2/3's of the spring. And the remaining 1/3 tappers down to the end until it is only about 3/8" dia. What this does is allow 2/3rds of the spring to be fully compressed most of the time with normal amounts of up travel. But when it comes to terrain following, it gives an extraordinary amount of extension. Basically very little up travel and lots of down travel. I believe if you were to see a graph on this spring it would start out very flat and then climb dramatically towards the end of compression. Maybe someone could clue me in on the proper name for a progressive rate spring like this? It works for me. Its all just an experiment anyway, so have fun!
I hope this helps, Tyson

Dual rate coil
proggresive rate coil
composite rate coil etc.

A standard coil would be called linear.

BAsicaly a progressive rate spring has a light prestage coil,and the rest is a fairly higher rate. The two rates combined work together untill one maxes out.

PS. I dont need any, but their are a shit ton of the correct aero star coils in the albuquerque pick and pull. I just got back from the yard, got my power steering pump for full hydro.

Aaron O, I may have gotten my EEEE's mixed up. I think the springs I have are the expedition. sorry!
Cheers

Thanks alot both of you, but now I have got more questions. First of all, its a doka with a super light bed on it so as far as load carrying maybe my spare and a cooler and toolbox- strictly a trail toy. Anyway, you suggested 404's, are the mounts on a 404 and 416 the same? Sorry, never really studied spring mounts on a 404. If so I guess I could also try aerostar on mine? Just kinda thinking out loud now. Thanks to both of you, I'll let you know if I come up with something.

I would check the rates of the 416 spring. They should be in a service manual. If they are heavier than a 404, I would give the 404 spring a shot. You can try the aerostar, but your rig is alot heavier even without a bed than any 404 ever wanted to be.

Good luck. And yes the 416 spring mounts are the same as a 404, and any spring will swap.

Thanks alot for the help, both of you guys. I will check the rates and compare and go from there. I'll keep you posted, seeya.

Aerostar rears with long travel 15" shocks and TJ 4" lift rears mounted up front with air bags and R 9012's

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=226677&d=1138506324
Does the adjustable shock help dial in the dampening since the shock is mounted layed down?
I've been wondering why that's not done more often on buggies to lower hood lines,we used to lay down the shocks on our dirt bikes to get more wheel travel back in the 1970's,but you'd have to swap on some heavier street bike shocks to get enough spring and dampening rate for the added travel.

Yes, I believe it does. I think the prefered mounting is vertical but in order to get the travel I wanted and not spend to much, the angle seemed to be the way to go.

Ford Expedition rear spring next to stock rear. I have never bolted these in and tried them though.

Why don'tcha check the rate of those expedition springs with a bathroom scale and see how they compare to the stockers.

Measured the Expedition springs starting at a free height of approx. 18.5" and compressed them to about 11.5" (not fully comp.) 235 lbs an inch to 1645 lbs at 11.5" This is approximate but close.

installed expedition springs today, lifted 7/8 in. at rear end of frame. haven't had a chance to test ride yet.

Any feed back on the test ride? I would imagine the limiting factor on the suspension now is the shock travel. I am curious to know!
Thanks, Tyson

Are the expedition springs the stock expedition springs or from a lift? I want to try to find a new set of springs and if I can find a pair I will give them a shot.

only testing I've done is driving a back tire up on my trailer and the springs sucked the trailer up pretty much like it wasn't there, but it was no ramp. I am going to Riverrock on the 17th and hope to do plenty of experimenting. As far as the question about lift or stock springs, I used stock, they appear to be the exact same thing as in Tyson's pic. As another gee wiz, while I was crawling around the junkyard I found another possible fit, they were the rears out of a late model Tahoe. Close to same spring dia., maybe a hair thicker winding itself, but shorter and no taper. It had the pigtail winding top and bottom though, so it would also probably bolt right in. Oh yeah, the shocks are definitely my limiting straps for now. If I let them drop all the way, it tugs on my park brake cable/bracket pretty hard. See any reason not to drop the bracket a couple inches besides clearing the axle itself on the up stroke?

Cool! I guess I will see you at riverrock next weekend. We will be driving down Friday evening. They definitely have some trails built just for testing out suspension travel. I am trying to get a set of springs before that trip.

I'm running bronco 2 front coils in the front of the mog and King coilovers 150/250 in the rear
http://mogtech.com/bulk/images/nwmf04_smolloy/800/picture_020.jpg

I'm running bronco 2 front coils in the front of the mog and King coilovers 150/250 in the rear
http://mogtech.com/bulk/images/nwmf04_smolloy/800/picture_020.jpg


Did you gain any height from the B2 springs in front? We just swapped in explorer springs into our B2 for a little lift so I have some stock B2 coils just laying there,waiting to be put into something. I haven't got around to figuring out what I want to put into my mog just yet,but if your still about stock height I'll stick those in while I have the cab off(gotta replace flywheel:shaking: )

got back from river rock sun. and nothing but good to say about the expedition coils in a 416. I don't think I really lifted a tire all weekend.

:) Cool ! Glad to get the feed back. If you shop around for shocks by specifications, You might come up with one that more closely matchs your needs on comp and extension and still allows for stock mounting. It seems as though most stock shocks allow for too much compression anyway. Unless of coarse your related to Evil Kenevil.
Cheers, Tyson

Being that the 416 spring tower is also the upper shock mount, I was thinking about relocating the upper hole a few inches lower and calling it good. Any objections?

Not at all. Seems logical. At full compression, what do you think the measurement would be between the stock mounts? I can check a shock spec sheet for you.
Tyson

I don't have access to a ramp right now, but if I find something around here big enough to lift a wheel on, I'll pull the shocks and let you know. Thanks.

got back from river rock sun. and nothing but good to say about the expedition coils in a 416. I don't think I really lifted a tire all weekend.

Sorry I didn't get a chance to wheel any with you at RR. I am glad those springs are working out for you. I still need to find some springs to stuff under my 404. And congrats on winning the Corbeau seats! :smokin:

Pics from the weekend (no mog content till page 19!):
http://www.strom.clemson.edu/staff/pat/mog/trips/RiverRock-2006-03-18-19/

No problem, wish we could have hit a few together also. I have family in Simpsonville, maybe I'll drag it up there one day. pm me if you are gonna be around Atlanta any time.(RR or Morris Mountain or Black Moose I heard are also pretty good, too. Seeya

Aaron o, Ive been looking into those Chevy Tahoe, Escalade rears and think they might work very well in the front of the 404. Skyjacker offers them in 3" and 6" lifts with minimal wraps. I think the stock springs will work for my application and I believe the spring rate is about 250 lbs an inch. Soon as I find a set locally I will be installing them.
Thanks, Tyson

Im gonna try stock Expedition springs on my 404 in the next few weeks, it sounds like they are a great way to go. If Tahoe springs are available I may try those instead. Do the Expy springs bolt right in? Or is some fab work required? Also, would it be worthwhile to move the rear springs to the front? Or should I not waste my time with that? Thanks for any help

Using expedition springs in the rear of your 404 would raise the ride height quite a bit! Depending on weight of bed your running. Moving rears to front would also raise it up some. Aaron o applied his to a 416 not a 404. And if you still want to try them, Yes they will bolt in. I believe your shocks will be very close to max extension unless modified.
I hope this helps, Tyson

Ahh, thanks for the help Tyson. I didnt see that it was a 416 that was mentioned earlier. Yes, that would make quite a difference in ride height on a 404. Im kind of back to square one again I guess. Im really not interested in lift, or maybe a very minimal lift, so I'll have to try to find another set of coils that will fit the bill. I have a set of stock XJ (Jeep Cherokee) front coils, maybe Ill look them over.

Got tired of trying to find some stock Tahoe/ suburban/Yukon/etc. Springs to put in the front of the 404 so I cut down the Expediton springs I had and put them in. Seems to be ok, ramped pretty good and soaked up the rough terrain (at speed) pretty good. I will know more next week after hitting the trail.

After hitting the trails at Moab/ Coyote, Greenday and BFE. And Montrose/ Die trying. I would rate the cut down expedition springs very good. I would still like to go slightly softer and a bolt in would be better, but overall it was better than stock and better than TJ's. Next I will still try to find some suburban or Tahoe rears.

Die trying.

Just joined up here. I've popped my head round the door a few tiimes in the past just to see what goes off in here!
I have a '69 421 (amongst other stuff, as you'll see in my profile).
All very interesting this spring swapping stuff. Out of interest, I've been down to our local junk pile today and pullled a pair of Aerostar rears so I can do my own experimenting in the future.

Those Ranch 9012's.........Looking at the spec sheet I see they have the L1 pattern eyes top and bottom. They fit the 'mog 14mm mounts OK, yeah? I presume with the parts kit to reuce bush bore from 5/8" to 9/16"?

I need a pair of rear shocks at the moment anyway. The Merc' originals have lost all their damping. I was initially going to experiment with a pair of 5113's as they have the L1 eyes. They have about 3" greater travel than the originals, but will fit on the stock mounts. Then if it worked out OK try the Aerostar/9012 combination in the future, raising the top shock mounts accordingly.

Pretty new to all this mega flexing stuff. I emigrated from the UK a while ago. We don't have the sort of terrain there where such amounts of suspension travel is neccessary...

swag

Whoops didnt mean to post that
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c93/dokatd/Photo-0020.jpg

Dude, you were suppose to keep that secret!

Keep What secret I see nothing!!!

Cool! That looks like it's headed for bolt on kit status:bounce2:

Yes it is bolt on!!!! :)

looks cool that i was thinking along that line but with air shocks(i got them for the zook but i want to play with the mog now

Where is the upper mount placed for this? I am very interested in doing a similar setup on my 404.0 (416 Doka cab, 404 running gear). Looks like you tied into the spring/shock perch on the axle... but I don't see where the top is headed. I am assuming you fabbed a bracket, and it also looks like you removed the top spring perches?

Help me piece the puzzle together!

Thanks!
-Kyle

I talked about a year ago to Tyson over the phone and we discussed a bunch of ways to set up my 404. I found some aerostar 3/4 ton springs that I put in the rear and I love them. I don't know what the spring rate difference is on them but just by looking at the difference between the 3/4 ton and the regular aerostar spring I can see a big difference. I have almost a 50/50 weight distribution on my mog and the flex and side hill abilities are fantastic. I went with 6" Rubicon Express Rear TJ springs in the front and it's a little soft but overall I'm very happy. If I can find some expedition springs I will try them out in the front and see how they do. For those of you who want to know how the 3/4 ton aerostar springs work check out my link at: Click on the pic of my mog to see all the pics. http://web.mac.com/dansflb/iWeb/DanDreher/Unimog%20Photos.html

I just recently bought a 416 and I really want to see if I can find some expedition springs for it. Are there any other setups I should be considering for my 416?