VW engine brainstorm

[Myanarchy]

Bear with me now guys.


Looking at cheap motor alternatives, and started thinking about VW engines. Old VW engines. Think 1600cc dual port air cooled engines. I figure they turn the wrong way, Shouldn't be a problem to remedy that with a reverse grind cam. I have one laying around, actually about 6. Performance parts are dime a dozen. Slap some propane on it with some intake work, and 150 HP would be no problem in a very lightweight package. Also could put the oil cooler anywhere I wanted with a taurus fan, and can get adapters for a th350 all day. Throttle linkage wouldn't be a problem, and the thing could be set pretty damn low and back in the engine bay to distribute weight. Thinking too far outside the box? Dropped on my head early in life and its just now showing up?



Thoughts? Ideas? Reasons why I need to put the crack pipe down?

[stunnin650]

do it let, us know how it works

[TheBanjoman]

Bear with me now guys.


Looking at cheap motor alternatives, and started thinking about VW engines. Old VW engines. Think 1600cc dual port air cooled engines. I figure they turn the wrong way, Shouldn't be a problem to remedy that with a reverse grind cam. I have one laying around, actually about 6. Performance parts are dime a dozen. Slap some propane on it with some intake work, and 150 HP would be no problem in a very lightweight package. Also could put the oil cooler anywhere I wanted with a taurus fan, and can get adapters for a th350 all day. Throttle linkage wouldn't be a problem, and the thing could be set pretty damn low and back in the engine bay to distribute weight. Thinking too far outside the box? Dropped on my head early in life and its just now showing up?



Thoughts? Ideas? Reasons why I need to put the crack pipe down?



Air cooled VW motors spin clockwise, same as the Zuk motors. think about it

Same problems as Subaru motors.. WIDTH between frames.

[Myanarchy]

Air cooled VW motors spin clockwise, same as the Zuk motors. think about it

Same problems as Subaru motors.. WIDTH between frames.



Already tubing the front of the frame so no big deal. They spin the same way as suzuki motors, when they are rear engine. Front engine and they would need to be reversed correct. Reversing it I would have to do something about the oil pump. The more I think about it the more unpopular it becomes:(

[DemoMike]

Yeah, it'd be okay to delete this thread...:flipoff2:

[Myanarchy]

Why? The air cooled VW engine a motor in common useage in the Samurai? Talked about for hours on end like every 16v question? To mainstream for the PBB coffers to at least differ why it couldn't be a viable, cheap alternative?

[TNToy]

Hey John... 2 words. REAR ENGINE.

I'm coming up to the shop to work on that 3rd member saturday I think... and I'm gonna start fabbing motor mounts in your bed. :p

Atlas needs to make a t-case that reverses driveline rotation.

[weedwacker]

I once saw a 4x4 vw, 2 engines 2 trannys one trans with a flipped ring gear to run in reverse. Had an engine hanging out the front and rear. Shifting linkage was an issue though. Would be difficult to gear down too.

[sj-x]

boat v-drive. you can reverse the direction of power flow around 30* (not100% sure on availability or arrangements of these.) you can get reductions around 1.1:1, up to 3:1. then feed a transfer case input from this.

[Myanarchy]

Hey John... 2 words. REAR ENGINE.





Thats why I was talking about reversing the rotation :laughing:


Come on out to the shop. I'll have the hummer wheels to work on, and probably be moving a nice bis ass drill press in with the cutting torch setup.


And don't say a word about the mess, I'm gonna clean it this time:(


I'm such a slob:(

[ROCKSFORBRAINS]

I've had the same thoughs going through my head, but don't know if the weight savings (if any) would be worth having to throw money at the VW to get it to the power level of the 1.6 16 valve zuk motor. How much does a 1.6 weigh without water? I've searched to no avail.
The dual port vw is about 204 lbs with a big ass oil cooler and stock shrouds, generator, and fan. Could be lightened up a bit from there. I'm curious how much hp a stock 1600 dp would have?

[Myanarchy]

Give me one and I'll weigh it before I put it in:p

[TNToy]

Thats why I was talking about reversing the rotation :laughing:


Come on out to the shop. I'll have the hummer wheels to work on, and probably be moving a nice bis ass drill press in with the cutting torch setup.


And don't say a word about the mess, I'm gonna clean it this time:(


I'm such a slob:(
Yay! Drill press and torch! :bounce:

You're gonna clean it? Are ya gonna start with that nasty-ass toilet? :eek: ::eek: :flipoff2:

I'm seriously wondering how many tools will be missing by the time that Twin-Turbo LS-1 is back in your brother's Z28, and your ZUki is running.

Probably all of them. :p

We have to fiure out how to build a 200HP reverse-rotation VW engine. When my rig goes formula-toy... I'll replace my shot 22RE with one too. :D

[TNToy]

THERE IS NO NEED TO REVESE THE ENGINE'S ROTATION

Think it through logically: People swap TH350s into VW sandrails all the time. Because you can't spin an auto backwards (torque converters don't like that) The VW crank must be turning the same direction as a chevy 350 crank.

Because we've confirmed that the engine and tranny are standard rotation , that leaves ONE place where the VW reverses it's driveline rotation from a standard vehicle: The differential.

The VW must have it's pinion gear on the opposite side of the ring gear from a normal axle. (This is how people building rear-engine moon buggys make a normal axle drive backwards to account for the rear engine layout: They flip it over so the ring gear is driven backwards, just like a stock VW diff/transaxle)

So, in summary, as long as you don't swap the VW rear suspension in place as one of your axles, a VW 1600 engine, plus a TH-350, plus a pair of D44s, will mean John's rig will NOT go forward when he puts it in reverse. :rasta:

So feel free to swap the 250lb, 150HP, torqueless wonder into your Zuki, John. If it doesn't suck... I might just copy you. I question the need for propane, too. Sandrails can stand on their tails for an entire hillclimb and have no problems with a carb'd setup, so maybe it'll be okay in a 'crawler too. :grinpimp:

Thinking about how much weight I'd shave off my toyota by ripping every emissions, EFI, wiring, airbox, and radiator-related thing off my truck makes me think it'd almost be worth the lack of low-end grunt. I couldn't settle for one making less than 200HP though. Damn, a formula toy 300 pounds lighter than all the others. Hmmm...

[Myanarchy]

Stand By:evil:



This is gonna be the most redneck thing ever!



GUess I'm in the right place:D

[TNToy]

I promise to fully disclose any of the booty fab that takes place on this rig.

Knowing John, that'll be a lot, and it'll be scary. :flipoff2: :p

[UZI 9mm]

So feel free to swap the 250lb, 150HP, torqueless wonder into your Zuki, John




The rig is known as "Tiny" It has an air cooled 3.0L VW Type IV motor built by Fat Performance. It has 300ft lbs of torque at low RPM. It gets it.

:flipoff2:

[Myanarchy]

:flipoff2:



You got me thinking now....



Wonder if an evinrude outboard motor would work:confused:



:flipoff2:

[dumb]

That Fatcity motor is worth a fair chunk of change. You could easily put something more worth while for the same price.

I have about $3000 into my 2100 (cam, 48's duals, big valve heads, aftermarket block, stroked etc...) and I'm swapping it out for something worth while (liquid cooled 20v Turbo).

1600 DP's can be made to make some "decent power" but again it's not really cheap. What you can do on the cheap really isn't going to be worth it.

[Myanarchy]

That Fatcity motor is worth a fair chunk of change. You could easily put something more worth while for the same price.

I have about $3000 into my 2100 (cam, 48's duals, big valve heads, aftermarket block, stroked etc...) and I'm swapping it out for something worth while (liquid cooled 20v Turbo).

really isn't going to be worth it.1600 DP's can be made to make some "decent power" but again it's not really cheap. What you can do on the cheap .



I'm not using the Fat city motor. I'll be using a dual port with a good case, bored and stroked, BV heads, decent cam. I am not throwing 900 at a set of 48s. With parts I have laying around (used to build VWs with friends) I can do it cheaper than I could rebuild a small block chevy. My budget will be less than yours, and I have all the parts I need. Plus, when was the last time you saw a samurai with a VW aircooled motor in the front? Light, good power, and I can put the damn thing anywhere.

[Reddog]

"For the effort of fabbing an intake, making a linkage, and tuning it, why not just go fuel injected and get better performance with much less headache"

Talk about a headache, man I hope you have a lot of aspirin:D
From the experience of about 20 years of building VW engines all I can say is, best of luck to you. Unless you are willing to spend a lot of money ( and a lot of money is the key ) there's a simple equation to follow with VW performance.....
VW engine + high perfomance = hand grenade
I used to love to go to the VW drags just to watch the engines scatter on the track.
But who knows maybe you are on to somthing interesting. Maybe try a carburetor off a Harley :flipoff2:

Just a thought...think about a 914 mid engine porsche...hmmmm, your buddy is right, it's all in the transaxle.

[dumb]

I'm not using the Fat city motor. .
I didn't say you were, if you read my post again you'll see I was talking about the performance of a fatcity motor and how much $$$$ you have to spend to get that torque. Actually, you can get that amount of torque for less cash, but it won't be reliable. The point was, to others who are reading this should realize unless you've got a wack of cash or lots of performance parts laying around this is not really an upgrade worth doing.


...Plus, when was the last time you saw a samurai with a VW aircooled motor in the front? Light, good power, and I can put the damn thing anywhere.
I haven't and that's what makes it unique. Would I do it? No, performance AND reliability at a REASONABLE cost for me is key at this point. AC VW stuff just isn't that in my books.

[TNToy]

Talk about a headache, man I hope you have a lot of aspirin:D
From the experience of about 20 years of building VW engines all I can say is, best of luck to you. Unless you are willing to spend a lot of money ( and a lot of money is the key ) there's a simple equation to follow with VW performance.....
VW engine + high perfomance = hand grenade
Hey. A voice of experience. Cool.

Question: I know nothing about AC kraut motors. While running 10 second 1/4 miles in a beetle obviously involves a time bomb...

Is it possible to build a 150hp, 150-200lb/ft motor that will take a fair amount of abuse? 125-150 HP is all his rig needs, since I'm going to cut off all the 1/2" plate he glues onto this thing and replace it with 1/8". :flipoff2:

Just a thought...think about a 914 mid engine porsche...hmmmm, your buddy is right, it's all in the transaxle.As soon as he said people have bolted a TH350 to this motor, it fell into place. So you agree. Cool. Myanarchy still maintains you'd have to flip the diffs over... but agrees that its spins the same way as a smallblock chevy.

He's starting to make less & less sense every time I talk to him. :rasta:

[imgonnasnap]

how 'bout a Harley motor :smokin:

[Reddog]

Hey. A voice of experience. Cool.

Question: I know nothing about AC kraut motors. While running 10 second 1/4 miles in a beetle obviously involves a time bomb...

Is it possible to build a 150hp, 150-200lb/ft motor that will take a fair amount of abuse? 125-150 HP is all his rig needs, since I'm going to cut off all the 1/2" plate he glues onto this thing and replace it with 1/8". :flipoff2:

As soon as he said people have bolted a TH350 to this motor, it fell into place. So you agree. Cool. Myanarchy still maintains you'd have to flip the diffs over... but agrees that its spins the same way as a smallblock chevy.

He's starting to make less & less sense every time I talk to him. :rasta:

Ah, yes "Hitler's Revenge, the VolksWagen Beetle", hope that's not politically incorrect :flipoff2:
Anyway if memory serves me right, a stock VW Air Cooled 1600 put out around 60 Horse Power, give or take a little depending on the year model.
The most popular upgrades were the dual port heads, big bore kits, cams, carbs, header, etc.
Ignoring the fact that they only hold a couple quarts of oil and the valves are constantly in need of adjustment, the biggest problem is those Aluminum/Magnisium engine cases were not really capable of handling the pounding from the big bore kits. Anything over 1835cc was a recipe for disaster. Even at that you had to have a balanced/ forged crank and a damn good line bore on the engine cases as well as a lot of steel thread inserts to hold it all together..
So....the real horse power and torque came with the introduction of aircraft technology applied the the VW engine. That's were the big bucks come into play.
After market billet cases, cylinder kits and heads were the ticket. But at that point you are no longer talking about a "Volkswagen" engine but an engine based on the VW design. Not to mention one hell of a lot of cash !
So my advice would be to take all your old VW engine cases down to the beach for a party......with all the magnisiium in those cases they make for a great bonfire:D

Or get a Harley engine, LOL ! :laughing: :laughing:

[Myanarchy]

"But who knows maybe you are on to somthing interesting. Maybe try a carburetor off a Harley :flipoff2:




Now your just hatin:flipoff2:

[Reddog]

Now your just hatin:flipoff2:

Sorry, I just couldn't resist the temptation :D

[jeepzuk]

I say go for it,you can built it reliable and cheap.I have though of doing the same thing.To build a 2276 long block with good parts (no cheap empi crap)it will run you around $1500.Thats plenty of torque for rockcrawling,throw on an external filter and it will bump your oil capasity from 2.5 quarts to 3.5 quarts.Another thing to consider you don't need a radiator.If you built a vw motor right you have nothing to worry about.The only down side I see is the starter setup and the motor width.Screw what everyone says JUST DO IT!!

[Myanarchy]

I say go for it,you can built it reliable and cheap.I have though of doing the same thing.To build a 2276 long block with good parts (no cheap empi crap)it will run you around $1500.Thats plenty of torque for rockcrawling,throw on an external filter and it will bump your oil capasity from 2.5 quarts to 3.5 quarts.Another thing to consider you don't need a radiator.If you built a vw motor right you have nothing to worry about.The only down side I see is the starter setup and the motor width.Screw what everyone says JUST DO IT!!



Starter setup should be no big deal, and It will easily fit between the fenders. 200 Lbs. sitting on top of the frame rails will be nothing.

[Roksamy]

Stand By:evil:



This is gonna be the most redneck thing ever!



GUess I'm in the right place:D


:laughing: Damn , dude , thats almost sig worthy:laughing:

[RngrDv]

I grew up with a dad who was a VW & Porsche mechanic and racer. You can get those bugs movin pretty good with just a stock 1600 dual port heads. I know bugs weigh more than a Sammie so that shouldn't be a problem.

The only problem I see out here in Cali is the smog laws. You can not put an older engine into a car. So for my 86 Sammie I need an 86 or newer engine.

[Myanarchy]

I grew up with a dad who was a VW & Porsche mechanic and racer. You can get those bugs movin pretty good with just a stock 1600 dual port heads. I know bugs weigh more than a Sammie so that shouldn't be a problem.

The only problem I see out here in Cali is the smog laws. You can not put an older engine into a car. So for my 86 Sammie I need an 86 or newer engine.



I have no smog laws. We pimp in that area. I could strap a morse steam engine in the damn thing and be golden:flipoff2:

[GeoB]

I know bugs weigh more than a Sammie

I don't wanna ruin a great thread with my picky post, but I have an extremely strong feeling that the Bug weighed under 1800 lbs. :)

[Myanarchy]

I don't wanna ruin a great thread



And some people said it wouldn't amount to anything:laughing: