1) whats the difference in a single flare and double flare

2) how do i tell if i have a single or double

3) whats the best way to go

4) best tool for the job


thanks:D

1) whats the difference in a single flare and double flare

2) how do i tell if i have a single or double

3) whats the best way to go

4) best tool for the job


thanks:D



1. Well one as a single flare and the other has a double flare.:flipoff2: Kidding aside, the single flare (pics A/D) has simply been spread out with an inverted cone shape. It is okay for household plumbing fixtures, but NOT for use in a vehicle. It is prone to fracturing around the edges when overtightened. On the other hand, a double flare (pics B/C) is exactly like a single flare. Except it requires one more step. Essentially, the lip is folded back onto itself. Thus, the rim is stouter and has more "meat" to help prevent fracturing and provide a stronger seal.

2. See the attached pic A/D is single B/C is double

3. Look at the manufactures recommendation. IMO, any vehicle or machine hyd. line or similar hardline should be double flared.

4. You can rent a double flare kit at most any auto parts store. When your done, you get your $$$ back. Double flare kits range from $0 to $150. STAY AWAY FROM CHINESE ANYTHING. Those CNA kits will break the dies and generally create bad seals. A SnapOn Bluepoint double flare kit is a good start for general use.

thanks. this will be brake and steering lines and they look the same but i see what you mean about the "meat". my rig is in bfe and i'm just going to bite the bullet and buy one. saw the china crap and it was under $20 and i knew that was to cheap. looking at rigid at its about $50.

I've always had a problem trying to double flare some tube and having it split. advice?

Not to confuse the issue more but there's also AN/JIC which has a 37 degree flare and SAE which has a 45 degree flare - don't use the wrong flare for the wrong fitting.

A drop or two of lube while you're cranking down the flaring cone usually gives a nicer looking flare.

If you're splitting tube, you might be trying to make your flares too big or overtightening. If you aren't chamfering your cuts before you flare the tube that will cause cracks too because a rough edge gives them a place to start. Try changing the length of tubing stickout a little and see if that helps. The marks on some tools aren't always accurate and you need to experiment sometimes. If it's still cracking after chamfering the cut and getting your tubing stickout perfect, anneal the tubing before you flare it.

BTW - My Boss always told me that compression fittings were illegal on automotive lines, but I never could find the law on it. Anyone know? There are plenty of aircraft compression fittings rated for 3000 psi.

Ive had pretty good luck with the rigid flaring tool and bar from home depot...I had to order the small dies (or whatever theyr'e called) that you use in the first step of the double flaring process. It seems to work a little better than most of the chinese jobs Iv'e used or tried to use.
The secret is to cut a bevel the inside of the tube before you start. I use the point of a 1 1/4 in hole saw as recomended by someone on here. Once I started doing this step corectly it made a huge difference.

The secret is to cut a bevel the inside of the tube before you start.

That's fine for a single flare, but single flares are generally pretty easy to do without doing this, and any bevel you cut into it is just that much thinner the end of the flare will be when you're done.

Double flares are the hard ones to get right. It's the first step getting the tube to buckle that's hardest. If it buckles correctly, then flaring it out the rest of the way is easy.

For double flares, you want to round off or chamfer the OUTSIDE edge of the tube. The outside edge has to turn inwared along the buckling die in the first step. Rounding it off makes a big difference between the tube buckling like it should, or just pushing out through the clamp.

--Dan

BTW - My Boss always told me that compression fittings were illegal on automotive lines, but I never could find the law on it. Anyone know? There are plenty of aircraft compression fittings rated for 3000 psi.

I just discussed this with one of my suppliers. He told me this only applied to DOT regulated vehicles like buses and semis, and even then, one can use compression fittings, but they must be of the 3K psi variety.

AFAIK there are no prohibitions in the FMVSS

I have a related question-- how to you chamfer the edges of the line and how much? Could you post a pic of a properly chamfered line?

Here are some pictures about half way down.

http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon/plumbingbrakes/plumbingdiscbrakes.html

For double flares, you want to round off or chamfer the OUTSIDE edge of the tube. The outside edge has to turn inwared along the buckling die in the first step. Rounding it off makes a big difference between the tube buckling like it should, or just pushing out through the clamp.

--Dan

Iv'e heard of putting a slight bevel on the outside of the tube along with an adequate bevel on the inside...never heard of just an outside bevel, not that that means anything though.

Iv'e always had an easier time getting it to buckle with a inside bevel than with no bevel at all...never tried it with the outside of the tube beveled...might have to give that a shot

Good write up with pic from car craft (I know its a car website, but good tech) http://www.carcraft.com/howto/50919/

and another: http://classictrucks.com/tech/0501cl_brake/

This is good info. I am getting ready to to a SAS on my Bronco and will need to build new lines or have them built. I would prefer to do it myself as a learning experience.

Since I will need new lines from the 1990 Bronco to the 75 D44 with 78 knuckles out and 78 Thunderbird calipers I will need to get the fittings and steel tubes.

Is there a good place to pick up the fittings, Tee, and premade flex from? B&M or online?

I've used a lot of flaring tools and only 2 that were worth a shit.

The best was some english tool we had at the resto shop I used to work at. It was totally different than any other tool I've seen. Lever action, with 2 different forming dies for each tubing size. You put the tube in the holder, lined up die 1, pull the handle. That gets you a bubble flare, slide over to die 2, pull handle again, POOF perfect 45* double flare. Awesome tool, but I have no idea who made it or where to get it, otherwise I'd buy one today.

Second best is the Rigid. Looks just like all the cheapies but actually works very well for most stuff, though larger lines can be a bit difficult. Here's how I do a double flare in a 3/16" brake line. I've been told I'm totally anal, but I always get a good clean flare that seals.


Step 1. Cut line to length and insert in flaring tool.
Step 2. File end smooth and flat to proper length (the length just takes practice)
Step 3. I run a piece of 400 grit wet/dry sand paper over the end to soften the edge and remove any remaining burrs
Step 4. Insert the little round forming die, slide the clamp into place and tighten.
Step 5. Tighten the handle down while watching tube. It should bulge out in the center then crush down smoothly under the forming die.
Step 6. Release the handle, remove the forming die and repeat step 5 without it. You dont need to go nuts on cranking it down, but it should firmly press into the tubing.
Step 7. Release and remove the clamp and before removing the tube run the sandpaper over the flare again. It'll smooth off the edges and get rid of any small burrs that can damage the seating surface. This is especially important if the line is going into a brass fitting that is easily damaged.

I know I just wrote a book, but hopefully it'll help you out.

Dallas

Just found one of the really good tools, too bad its in the UK. I gotta find one here in the states. If you're into doin brake lines, this is the absolute best tool you can buy. Another nice thing is the block that holds the tubing has a smooth bore so it doesn't leave any gouges in the tubing behind the flare like most of the other tools do. The only down side is that the holding block is longer than the Rigid style tool so you cant have a bend as close to the end of the line, unless you bend after flaring.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Brake-Flaring-Tool-same-Maker-as-Sykes-Pickavant_W0QQitemZ8029241557QQcategoryZ30922QQrdZ 1QQcmdZViewItem

Oh yeah one other thing...as soon as you cut the tube, slide the nut on the tube... BEFORE you start flaring. hehehe ask me how I know ;)

You can also buy preflared lengths of tube with various fittings on them at the auto parts store. You can buy a foot or two and use that to practice getting a good flare before you start to flare the lines on your ride.

I got a Mastercool Hydraulic flaring tool for x-mas(the 71475 model) Its badass to say the least. Kinda pricey but hey it works everytime without a hitch.

Oh yeah one other thing...as soon as you cut the tube, slide the nut on the tube... BEFORE you start flaring. hehehe ask me how I know ;)

You can also buy preflared lengths of tube with various fittings on them at the auto parts store. You can buy a foot or two and use that to practice getting a good flare before you start to flare the lines on your ride.



good idea on buying tubing from the auto store:D and not only put the fitting on make sure its the correct way ask me how i know that:D

A tip I discovered after fighing a lot of bad flares: DON'T use a tubing cutter to cut the tube to length. Sounds odd, but the thinking is that cutter wheel hardens the soft steel right at the cut and it won't flare well. What I do now is cut the tube about 1/8" too long, but I use a cutoff blade in my Dremel tool. Don't worry about it being square, youll fix that next.

Chuck the tube into the clamp part of the flaring tool, leave about 1/16" to 1/8" sticking out. Take a GOOD sharp smooth file and use the clamp part as a guide to get the end of the tube perfectly square. The use the tang from a round file to remove any burrs from inside the tube, and take the sharp edge off the outer part of the cut with a small file, get it even all the way around.

Made a huge difference for me.

A tip I discovered after fighing a lot of bad flares: DON'T use a tubing cutter to cut the tube to length. ... Hmm, my experience is the opposite. DO use a tubing cutter. You get a nice square cut, and I've never seen any issues with hardness or whatever... You have any basis for this, or just more of a guess?

I've broken two forming dies lately I'm pretty sure because I DIDN'T use a tube cutter. One time I used a hack saw, the other time I shortened the tube by a few thou. with a file because I didn't put it in the flare tool quite right. Both times, the cut wasn't square and it bend and broke the die :mad3:

Sooooo... Does anyone know where to get forming dies? Those are the only things I ever have trouble with.

Swagelok is an excelent alternative to this too.

forming dies bring teh suck. Mine always get stuck in the tubing, and I have to undo the vice, slip it out a bit, and pry it back with two pry bars (if you use one, it snaps).

However that's because I've inserted the die after clamping - per stinkyfab's directions, I'll try inserting it before clamping down. The seal come out nice - either grinder/hack saw to cut off, fine file to bevel the outer edge about 1/2 of the thickness, and comes out pretty clean.

Flaring is the shit, except for when you gotta spend afew minutes pulling that die out.

:D

The only thing I have to add is I take the rat tail of the file ora phillips screw driver to ream out the center of the tube where the dull cutter squished the tube. This way the forming die will slide freely in the tube and wont get stuck. Also this is why a good sharp tubing cutter helps.


Evan
95 YJ SOA 44/8.8 35"MTs

I ended up getting a cheap HF double flaring tool and it worked just fine. I also used a HF tubing cutter.

I took my time with the tubing cutter with rotating three times between tightening the cutter until the 3/16" tube was cut. I then followed the instructions on the flaring tool by first setting the depth of the tube equal to the 3/16" bit, compressing with the bit, removing the bit and recompressing without it.

I came out flawlessly with the 4 flares I made. If you do it repeatedly as a proffesion the expensive flairing tools might be nessary but for ocasional use the HF one worked just fine.:smokin:

I have always used a MATCO flaring tool like this...

http://www.matcotools.com/ProductImages/FT6503.jpg

Because of this thread, I went down and bought the Home Depot tool...

http://carcraft.com/howto/p116198_image_large.jpg

The tool did not come with the double flare buttons, so I used my MATCO buttons. I cut a piece of tube with a tube cutter. I debured the inside with a countersink drill bit. I did not chamfer the inside or outside of the tube. I then produced a perfect, effortless flare. The MATCO tool was always a pain in the ass because the wing nuts were on the ends of the clamp bar. I always had to crank the shit out of them to keep the tube from slipping. The Home Depot tool has the clamping screw directly inline with the tube being flared. I highly recommend the Home Depot tool. It was well worth the $40.




.

Not to confuse the issue more but there's also AN/JIC which has a 37 degree flare and SAE which has a 45 degree flare - don't use the wrong flare for the wrong fitting.

Hold on now. Isn't SAE also 37 degrees?

Keep in mind most of the flare tools at hardware stores are made for 45 degree flares because that is commonly used for copper pipe on water systems.

Hold on now. Isn't SAE also 37 degrees?

SAE is a 45 degree double flare.

There are four flaring styles in common use for brake systems. British cars have a bubble flare (aka Girling flare) backed up with a male swivel nut or a 45 degree double flare backed up with a female swivel nut. Metric cars have ISO bubble flares, where the pipes and threads are metric sizes rather than inch. Detroit iron has a 45 degree double flare backed up by a male threaded nut. Most (non-British) race cars are plumbed with AN (aka JIC) type single flares - a 37 degree single flare with a backup sleeve and inch threaded swivel nut (some people make a double flare here, which is useless overkill and may lead to failure). Lastly, some brake fittings use tapered pipe fittings.

Thanks. I was mixing brake fittings up with AN fittings.

SO where do you get the buttons for the HD tool?

SO where do you get the buttons for the HD tool?

Eastwood...

http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=2426&itemType=PRODUCT

You could also use the buttons from a cheap tool from Harbor Freight.



.

Eastwood...

http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=2426&itemType=PRODUCT

You could also use the buttons from a cheap tool from Harbor Freight.



.


Anybody have a link to the HF one?

SAE is a 45 degree double flare.

There are four flaring styles in common use for brake systems. British cars have a bubble flare (aka Girling flare) backed up with a male swivel nut or a 45 degree double flare backed up with a female swivel nut. Metric cars have ISO bubble flares, where the pipes and threads are metric sizes rather than inch. Detroit iron has a 45 degree double flare backed up by a male threaded nut. Most (non-British) race cars are plumbed with AN (aka JIC) type single flares - a 37 degree single flare with a backup sleeve and inch threaded swivel nut (some people make a double flare here, which is useless overkill and may lead to failure). Lastly, some brake fittings use tapered pipe fittings.

You forgot about inverted flares/fittings, but thats still just a double flare. Also just about every newer (mid 90's and up) car I have seen has been bubble flare domestic or import.

Man it seems like this is being made out to be harder than it really is, SAE fittings are 45* so go buy a good flaring kit (I have both doubble flare and bubble flare kits from Matco, made by master cool) All you have to do is follow the instructions that coem in the kit.

A few key points thou

1: Make sure you have the right amount of tube sticking up through the bridge, you can masure this by taking the button for the size line you are using and place it flat against the bridge, the tube should stick up as high as the shoulder is on the button (good flaring kits will have pics of this).

2: Make sure you get the wing nuts on the bridge good and tight, I usaly use a screwdriver or wrench to turn them a turn or so past hand tight, you don't want the tube to slip.

3: To avoid getting the button stuck in side the tube run the yoke down into the tube just a little bit to open up the tube the slightest little bit than insert the button. If you do get the button stuck there are two easy ways to get it out in a hurry, firt you can grip it with pliers and twist it back and forth a little than pull it up or pry underneath it with a screw driver and keep working your way around the button til it pops out.

4: If you find your splitting the tube your doing one of three thing wrong, one you could have to much tube sticking up out if the bridge, two you could be running the yoke into the tube way to fast or lastly you could be using cheap ass tube (most likely).

I have ran literly a miles worth of brake line doign it this way, I can run a front to back lien on most cars in 30 minutes, start to finish.

SAE is a 45 degree double flare.

There are four flaring styles in common use for brake systems. British cars have a bubble flare (aka Girling flare) backed up with a male swivel nut or a 45 degree double flare backed up with a female swivel nut. Metric cars have ISO bubble flares, where the pipes and threads are metric sizes rather than inch. Detroit iron has a 45 degree double flare backed up by a male threaded nut. Most (non-British) race cars are plumbed with AN (aka JIC) type single flares - a 37 degree single flare with a backup sleeve and inch threaded swivel nut (some people make a double flare here, which is useless overkill and may lead to failure). Lastly, some brake fittings use tapered pipe fittings.

Actually SAE has standards for both 37 and 45 degree flare, 45degree inverted flare, and 45 and 37 standard flare. 37 and 45 deg flares are not used for braking.

Actually SAE has standards for both 37 and 45 degree flare, 45degree inverted flare, and 45 and 37 standard flare. 37 and 45 deg flares are not used for braking.

Wait are you saying 37* nor 45* are used in automotive brake systems? So what is used? I could be wrong but every standard fitting I have ever seen for a double flare or inverted flare on a car was 45*. Not to mention just about every flaring tool kit out there is 45* (with the execption of 37* but not as easy to find).

45 double flare is used in brake systems. 37 and 45 are used in other SAE regulated plumbing.

45 double flare is used in brake systems. 37 and 45 are used in other SAE regulated plumbing.

Oh well duh, I just assumed you ment double flare when you said 37* and 45*.

mastercool

And you guys are using 3/16" for your brake lines... right?

And you guys are using 3/16" for your brake lines... right?
A good majority of the time yes, 1/4" is also used as well, not quite as common thou.

A good majority of the time yes, 1/4" is also used as well, not quite as common thou.

Any reason to go with one or the other?

There are plenty of aircraft compression fittings rated for 3000 psi.
Actually those are what we called "lipseal" fittings. They look like a water compression fitting from the outside but the sealing method is different.

I've always had a problem trying to double flare some tube and having it split. advice?
As someone mentioned, a drop of lube helps sometimes. If it splits a second time, try annealing the end of the tubing. I've found that old tubing can get brittle and keeps splitting when you try to flare it. Annealing the metal makes it more maleable and less likely to split. Heat the tubing end with a torch until red hot and quench it with water. This usually softens the metal enough to prevent splitting and make the flaring easier.

Any reason to go with one or the other?
Line size is usally dictated by the manufactor, on older trucks its usally 1/4" to the front and 3/16" to the rear. Like I said it will all be dependant upon what size fitting the caliper, p-vale, matser cylinder etc., where made for as to what size you will have to use.




As someone mentioned, a drop of lube helps sometimes. If it splits a second time, try annealing the end of the tubing. I've found that old tubing can get brittle and keeps splitting when you try to flare it. Annealing the metal makes it more maleable and less likely to split. Heat the tubing end with a torch until red hot and quench it with water. This usually softens the metal enough to prevent splitting and make the flaring easier.
Have you ever actually tried "annealing" (what you actually described is not annealing) your brake line like this? I doubt it and I seriously doubt if you have that it worked. First off annealing and quenching are two opposite processes. Annealing is the process of cooling things off very slowly, in a bake oven or in sand, this makes the metal very soft. Quenching is the process of cooling metal off very quickly, like in water, this will make the metal hard and brittle. I would not waste my time on even trying this, if you don't cheap out and buy good line, I perfer NAPA, you won't have a problem with splitting since it is a copper coated line which makes it easy to flare and doesn't split. Is it really worth spending a whole afternoon makign on brake lien because you were to cheap to spend teh extra $5 on good brake line?

Line size is usally dictated by the manufactor, on older trucks its usally 1/4" to the front and 3/16" to the rear. Like I said it will all be dependant upon what size fitting the caliper, p-vale, matser cylinder etc., where made for as to what size you will have to use.





Have you ever actually tried "annealing" (what you actually described is not annealing) your brake line like this? I doubt it and I seriously doubt if you have that it worked. First off annealing and quenching are two opposite processes. Annealing is the process of cooling things off very slowly, in a bake oven or in sand, this makes the metal very soft. Quenching is the process of cooling metal off very quickly, like in water, this will make the metal hard and brittle. I would not waste my time on even trying this, if you don't cheap out and buy good line, I perfer NAPA, you won't have a problem with splitting since it is a copper coated line which makes it easy to flare and doesn't split. Is it really worth spending a whole afternoon makign on brake lien because you were to cheap to spend teh extra $5 on good brake line?
I think you have confused annealing and tempering. Different metals respond differently to different treatment. I have used this method on brass, copper and mild steel tubing and it works. I can't take credit for discovering it as it was taught to me. If I post some info, I'm not theorizing, it's something I have experience with and have tried. Try and do the same.

I think you have confused annealing and tempering. Different metals respond differently to different treatment. I have used this method on brass, copper and mild steel tubing and it works. I can't take credit for discovering it as it was taught to me. If I post some info, I'm not theorizing, it's something I have experience with and have tried. Try and do the same.
You are the one who is confused. Whoever taught it to you needs to spend a little more time studying metalurgy. Annealing is done by heating the metal and allowing it to cool slowly, resulting in softer, less brittle and more malleable metal. Heating ferrous metal and quenching will make it harder and more brittle. This is very basic metalurgy, which I learned in college many years ago. I'm pretty sure the laws of physics and chemistry haven't changed any since then.

Try doing a little research on it if you don't believe us. Your "theorizing" is obviously little more than misinformation. Unfortunately, a lot of people are under the same misconception you are, so the idea gets perpetuated. One thing that may have you confused is that with most copper based alloys quenching will have no effect other than to cool the metal more quickly. So in effect you have sort of annealed the metal. But with ferrous metals that is not the case.

ANNEALING: process in which glass, metals, and other materials are treated to render them less brittle and more workable. Annealing consists of heating the material and then cooling it very slowly and uniformly.

QUENCHING: describes the sudden immersion of a heated metal into cold water or oil; it is used to make the metal very hard.

Get one of the hydraulic flaring tools from mastercool-its like night and day comparison. Get some regular steel rolled brake line-follow the simple instructions. You will NEVER have a problem with double flared fittings again.

yes they are about $220-250 (look on ebay) but they are worth every penny.


like the model 71300 or similar


http://www.powertoolsonline.net/ProductImages/102000/DSD102399.jpg

This (http://www.kd-tools.com/2190.htm) is the only flaring tool I have used that doesn't let the tube slip while trying to flare. (I have not used any of the high end ones or the hydraulic ones, though).

I got it from my local Napa.

Bump

Any good sources for the AN 37 degree flare tools?

I spotted the one in Aircraft Spruce Catalog... but $595 there has
to be something a little cheaper. Damn.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/doublelap_flar2.php

Tom

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/graphics/12-00210jpg.jpg

try mcmaster carr item number
2721A11
Itll flare upto 3/4 inch line works great Ive personally flared 3/4 " steel hydraulic lines with no problem.
Only about 90$ too

Any bigger than that and Id call a parker distributer thats where we got our big flare tool.

Bump

Any good sources for the AN 37 degree flare tools?

I spotted the one in Aircraft Spruce Catalog... but $595 there has
to be something a little cheaper. Damn.


i just got the 37* from summit. its a cheapo one like the double flare kits but all my fuel system is al line and it flares that like a champ.

it was like $35.

I need to put a flare on the end of my fuel lines in the jeep...5/16". In practicing on it, it's a bitch and I can't get the first part of a double flare started. If I heat up the line with a MAPP torch, would there be any issues further on down the line? I'm using an Imperial tool from NAPA. I like it for brake line so far. Just flaring the line to keep the rubber hose from slipping off.

I'm going to be redoing the brakes in my ZJ in a few weeks. I'll be using 3/16" tube with the 45` SAE meathod of flaring. Hp44 front with 3/4T disks, 60ff with 3/4T disks 1 1/4" master

I was taught years ago that the thickness of the flaring button was the amount of tube that you want sticking out of the holder, if that helps anyone. Seems to work for me.