I'm looking at some alternatives to replace the modified RRC air cleaner I have supplying air to my Cummins 6at. Can anyone point me to some specs on the CFM and restriction ratings for the RRC aircleaner and for a 300 tdi aircleaner? I've looked and can not find any ratings on them. I'm also looking at Baldwins and Donaldsons, but space is at a premium, and I am looking for the best flow I can get in a small package. I figure I need about 300CFM, and 6 inches of water.

Simon

Simon,

I don't know if this helps, but the engine I have in the CrewCab (Chev 350) does not seem to be restricted by either the modified RRC air cleaner/filter or the Donaldson pre-cleaner (the 6-inch model).

I've run it with no intake, with just the RRC air filter and with the RRC and the Donaldson in place. Makes no difference IMO as to how the engine is running.

I have NO idea what the CFM is on the engine at idle or at any point in the RPM band, so I'm of no help there.

:(

I figure I need about 300CFM, and 6 inches of water.

Simon
300??? Care to share your math?

The engine is rated for intake restriction at 3000 rpm at 6 inches.

I used the formula available at Baldwin's website for diesel engines using the engine displacement and a couple different rpm loads. The engine redlines at 3600 rpm. My math worked out at about 250 cfm at 3000 rpmand about 209 at 2500 rpm. The 300 cfm figure was speculation/guesswork.

I left the formula at home. I'll see if I can find it again. It was in a pdf file for Baldwin filters.

If you think I'm full of shit pipe up, I am all ears. I want to play with the injection pump and maybe the wastegate eventually, but first I want good intake air and I am thinking about a water to aid barrel type intercooler to address charge air temps and restriction.

Simon

Found it: CFM = displacement in cubic inches over 1728 x RPM over 2 (cycle factor) x volumetric efficiency (turbo diesel VE is 1.4) Did I screw up the math somehow?

The engine is rated for intake restriction at 3000 rpm at 6 inches.

I used the formula available at Baldwin's website for diesel engines using the engine displacement and a couple different rpm loads. The engine redlines at 3600 rpm. My math worked out at about 250 cfm at 3000 rpmand about 209 at 2500 rpm. The 300 cfm figure was speculation/guesswork.

I left the formula at home. I'll see if I can find it again. It was in a pdf file for Baldwin filters.

If you think I'm full of shit pipe up, I am all ears. I want to play with the injection pump and maybe the wastegate eventually, but first I want good intake air and I am thinking about a water to aid barrel type intercooler to address charge air temps and restriction.

Simon

No I don't think your full of it. I just plugged a few # in my engine calculator and came up with a different number.

Not knowing the volume of the turbo or flow # of the engine I aimed high.


3.4L =207.4 CI
Volumetric Efficiency 200%
red line 4000 RPMs
567 to 708 cfm (calculated)

Thanks OS. The calculator I used uses generic numbers. I have had a hard time finding specifics on this engine for intake requirements even though I have the troubleshooting and shop manuals for it. I can't see getting airflow like your figures without a freaking huge aircleaner.

Anyone have anything helpful to offer, please post or PM me.

Edit: I have modified the RRC air cleaner housing I am running to a 3.5 inch outlet, which is about the same ID as the air filter, among other things. It would be nice to know how much air it flows.

Simon

If you want the most compact filter you can get, both Donaldson and Mann Filter have released a completely new design which has concentric rings of filter material - far more compact than a convertional design, and from what I have seen they work really well.

The donaldson model is called the "Powercore".
http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/001220.pdf

The housings are compact and made from tough plastic. Just buy the largest you can fit in. To use the integrated cyclonic pre-cleaners you need a seperate vacuum supply, but it wouldn't make a difference if you can't use them - it would just mean you need to change the filter slightly more often if you drive in really dusty conditions.

Thanks Ben! I was aware of the powercore, but my local dealer had zero information on them for some reason. I have a belt operated vacuum pump for my brakes, so I'll look into the precleaner. Next step is to get my 109 back on the road and run around with a restriction gauge on the aircleaner to see what's up. Then maybe the powercore.

Edit: Donaldson is faxing me specs on the powercore stuff now, if anyone is interested, let me know.
Simon

Thanks Ben! I was aware of the powercore, but my local dealer had zero information on them for some reason. I have a belt operated vacuum pump for my brakes, so I'll look into the precleaner. Next step is to get my 109 back on the road and run around with a restriction gauge on the aircleaner to see what's up. Then maybe the powercore.

Simon

I would never run a filter from a petrol engine on a diesel. The OEM donaldson filter on the ISUZU 4BD1 in my 110 is absolutely huge, and has two elements (in series) as well as an integral cyclonic pre-cleaner. That is way beyond anything that was ever fitted to any petrol engine.

I know. That's what I am trying to get around to. A new filter. In the meantime, I change filters as often as I replace the toilet paper rolls in my daughter's bathroom and I change the oil every three months even though the rig sees few miles.

Simon

Centri Precleaners has a CFM calculator on their site, and I came up with 287.5 CFM at 3000 rpm for the Cummins 3.4 liter 6at. Interestingly, they list this engine in their precleaner applications chart with a CFM demand at 350. I imagine that is based on the redline of 3600 rpm, but I'm too lazy to do the math.

The Powercore rated at this kind of flow is a tad long for the space I have - run into issues with the fuse block, brake booster and the power steering pump.

Ben, care to share with me where you fitted the aircleaner in your 110? I'd love to see a photo or two. I'll search.

Simon

I did up a spreadsheet on my Isuzu 4BD1T a while back.

Unboosted at 100% VE, I get 250 cuft/min (7 cumecs) at 3600rpm.
Boosted to 15psi with no intercooler and charge temp at 120 deg C I get 376 cuft/min (10.6 cumecs).

I made up my own filter housing which has the washable cotton Denso element from a 100 series toyota landcruiser. It only starts to register on the vacuum filter gauge when it's getting really dirty.
But it's a massive airbox.

I know. That's what I am trying to get around to. A new filter. In the meantime, I change filters as often as I replace the toilet paper rolls in my daughter's bathroom and I change the oil every three months even though the rig sees few miles.

Simon

As strange as it may sound - if you are trying to minimuse the dirt getting to your engine you should change your air filter LESS often, not MORE. I know it sounds strange, but due to the way air filters work, they increase in filtration efficiency during loading (much faster than the pressure drop increases). So changing your air filter too often will actually mean you get more dirt in your engine and it will wear faster. Many filters (especially car-type filters) have pretty poor efficiency when new.

From Caterpillar

Filter manufacturers often say "dirty" filters are more efficient than new ones because dust cake buildup on the surface actually increases filtration.
http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=37499&x=7

Here is a graph of pressure drop and efficiency (from a major filter manufacturer) for a VERY efficient truck filter - with cyclonic pre-cleaner (click the link):
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/download.php?id=10727
The change in efficiency might seem small, but it is based on mass, and means that a huge amount of particles are still getting through to the engine.

And here is a thread I posted on it on outerlimits (most people there forund it hard to believe too):
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=45726&postdays=0&postorder=asc

To answer your other question, the engine and filter was factory fitted to Australian 110s. The engine is a long way forward in the engine bay, and the air cleaner is squeezed in at the back, above the bellhousing.
Not my truck, but the same filter
Big pics here:
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/download.php?id=2710
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/download.php?id=2709

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/files/thumbs/t_100_0103__small__207.jpg
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/files/thumbs/t_100_0099__small__150.jpg

BB2/download.php?id=2709[/url]

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/files/thumbs/t_100_0103__small__207.jpg
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/files/thumbs/t_100_0099__small__150.jpg

Fascinating photos.
Do they have the IHI RHB6 turbo? Mine does but my engine is a japanese import. The isuzu trucks sold new in NZ and the US had Garrett turbos fitted which I think were T25's.

Fascinating photos.
Do they have the IHI RHB6 turbo? Mine does but my engine is a japanese import. The isuzu trucks sold new in NZ and the US had Garrett turbos fitted which I think were T25's.

The ISUZU trucks over here had both the Garret and the IHI AFAIK. I always thought that one replaced the other?

Thanks for the pics Ben. That filter looks too long for me to use unless I mount it outside the engine compartment on the fender. I cna see the outlet. Where is the inlet? On the opposite end or on the side? I've looked, and can not find a diagram of that filter. I'll do some searching, but if you cna provide rough dimensions and inlet and outlet diameters I'd be grateful.

Simon

Thanks for the pics Ben. That filter looks too long for me to use unless I mount it outside the engine compartment on the fender. I cna see the outlet. Where is the inlet? On the opposite end or on the side? I've looked, and can not find a diagram of that filter. I'll do some searching, but if you cna provide rough dimensions and inlet and outlet diameters I'd be grateful.

Simon

My truck is halfway around the world at the moment, but from memory...
Originally the inlet is on the RHS (passenger side in the US), facing forward. The outlet is in the middle or the RH end. I think the filter in the pic has been flipped around the other way when the turbo was fitted - to make the plumbing easier.

Inlet and outlet are at least 3" - maybe larger.

The ISUZU trucks over here had both the Garret and the IHI AFAIK. I always thought that one replaced the other?

So did you add a turbo to the NA engine? I thought the turbo engine only came in the 6wd versions? My engine is 85-86 vintage.

I bought a T25 from a nissan 180sx, it puts out 15 deg colder air than the IHI (at 15psi), but didn't make 15psi till almost 2500rpm. Do you have any idea what A/R the stock garrett is? The stock IHI is equivalent to a T3 (60mm wheels) with 0.42 A/R exhaust housing.

So did you add a turbo to the NA engine? I thought the turbo engine only came in the 6wd versions? My engine is 85-86 vintage.

I bought a T25 from a nissan 180sx, it puts out 15 deg colder air than the IHI (at 15psi), but didn't make 15psi till almost 2500rpm. Do you have any idea what A/R the stock garrett is? The stock IHI is equivalent to a T3 (60mm wheels) with 0.42 A/R exhaust housing.

The 110 in the pics is not mine. The owner bought a genuine (truck) 4BD1T, and fitted it in place of the 4BD1 that was there. Mine is still NA, but not for long. I have a couple of mates who have turbo'd their 4BD1s with good results. Sorry I can't help on the turbo specs - I have a couple of manuals which may have the info, but they are halfway around the world at the moment.

Here is the thread I got the pics from.
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modules/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=35631

I'm using Donaldson air cleaners in my trucks.

I had space problems and thought about using a powercore filter. When I spoke with their tech in Aus, about a year ago, they only had elements for some popular applications and had not produced any housings that I could use.

The Isuzu in those pics has the manifold which came with the IHI turbo. Mine has the Garrett and the turbo is mounted lower.

I'm using Donaldson air cleaners in my trucks.

I had space problems and thought about using a powercore filter. When I spoke with their tech in Aus, about a year ago, they only had elements for some popular applications and had not produced any housings that I could use.

The Isuzu in those pics has the manifold which came with the IHI turbo. Mine has the Garrett and the turbo is mounted lower.

Worth checking out Mann-Filter too if you are still interested in a powercore type element - their product ("Pico-Flex" housing and "Compact-Plus" elements) is practically identical, and has equivalent/identical performance/efficiency and element life. Neither of them are likely to make powercore/Compact-Plus retrofits for old chambers, but the range of new housings (for new model vehicles) are expanding all the time.

Information on the Mann-Filter chambers and elements are here:
http://www.mann-hummel.com/group/upload/doc/HBWSJAIoyuT.pdf

The Mann filter housings are available shorter, but their CFM rating is lower than the Donaldsons. IF I did the conversion from cubic meters to CFM correctly, the ratings are lower, that is. The picoflex I was looking at tops out IIRC at about 250 CFM. They also supposedly require vaccuum scavenging, but the Donaldsons achieve the same result with a one way valve thingy. Their stuff is a bit difficult to get here.

Thanks Ben, I'll have a look.

The rating of the Donaldson FPG in the rangie is lower than I would like for the 300Tdi, but I could not squeeze the next size into the engine bay.

The Mann filter housings are available shorter, but their CFM rating is lower than the Donaldsons. IF I did the conversion from cubic meters to CFM correctly, the ratings are lower, that is. The picoflex I was looking at tops out IIRC at about 250 CFM. They also supposedly require vaccuum scavenging, but the Donaldsons achieve the same result with a one way valve thingy. Their stuff is a bit difficult to get here.

The filter/housing in the pdf does indeed have a nominal flow of 250cfm at a resistance of 12" of H20. They must have bigger housings by now though, as these things are fitted to some pretty big engines. I will ask...

The filter should still work fine without the scavenging air if the scavenge outlet was facing down.

Ben, let us know what you elarn about larger housings. I'm curious, and could find nothing else online.

Simon

Ben, let us know what you elarn about larger housings. I'm curious, and could find nothing else online.

Simon

Ben, let us know what you elarn about larger housings. I'm curious, and could find nothing else online.

Simon

There will be a 10m3/min (353cfm) PicoFlex housing/filter released around the middle of the year. That is probably too late for you though???

If you want any more info on the new filter, let me know. Mann Filter agents in the US probably won't know anything about it yet.