Garage wiring question. with pic

[PARANOID56]

so, i am renting this garage from a friend, it does have 110 and 220 in the garage. it all feeds from this pannel. the kicker is that the 220 plug is ran off of two brakers. and a bunch of other stuff is also ran from that and is on 110. Something doesnt seem right with the wiring. I plan on using my millermatic 175 on the 220 line and thats about it. i wont be running everthing i own at once, so overloading the pannel shouldnt be a issue either. Can you guys tell me if this is wired right? if not, what do i need to do? sorry for the bad pic
http://www.camotoy.com/nasioc/wiringpannel.JPG
Thanks
Shane

[coyote]

Is this a sub panel? It definetly looks back yard...and I don't believe it's current to the code...how old is the garage...you shouldn't see the copper from the insulation, the ground and neutral eventually tie together but not like shown...but in general I don't think it will burn anything down...

[PAToyota]

I take it that the 220V is the double breakers on the right? You can do that. A 220V breaker is essentially two breakers to handle each of the two hots and has one lever across the two. You can use two individual 110V breakers to do essentially the same thing. Usually there is a clip across the two levers so that they act together.

[PARANOID56]

yea, this is a garage sub pannel. i have no issues of rewireing it either. Think i should? it looks like i have only 4 brakers avaliable. So if i put on a proper 220, that would only leave two. this pannel powers the washer and dryer (gas) and some flood lights.
Shane

[rusted]

I don't know grandfather rules, but that is not current code. If you mess with it, you will have to do some stuff.

First, there is no seperate ground wire from the main panel coming in. In a sub panel, the ground and neutral cannot be connected. This is to prevent you from possibly getting voltage on a grounded case on a piece of equipment. It's called nuetral feedback, IIRC. It's not a huge deal but it's not code.

The two different branch circuits coming from one breaker is not a big deal. What is a big deal is not having the 220v equipment ganged on the breaker. That is, one breaker can trip, and you will still have 110v on the other leg of whatever 220v outlet you have.

You need to have an externally or interally ganged 220v breaker for a 220 outlet. This is the clip mentioned above. You NEED to do that for your own safety, as well as code, for a 220 outlet or gear.

You can run a 110v branch circuit off of one leg, in my area, but be aware that when you do that, say run a 12amp grinder on that leg and then your welder, you will trip the whole 220v breaker more often. In any case it's not a good idea and I'm not sure that it's even code or not. Better check that out, but try not to do it anyway.

ONe 220v dedicated to your welder.
One 110v dedicated to the washer/dryer, and the lights. If you don't have too many lights, this shouldn't be a problem. Then you would have
One 110v dedicated to portable tool use.

If you look at your washer/dryer and lights and decide you need to split them, you can still run tools off of the lighter circuit. IMO this sounds like a one/man operation you're going to run.

This is what I know from wiring my house, I'm not a professional, so FWIW...

So, get a ganged 220v for your welder, and split the rest of the loads on two 20 amp circuits, I bet you'll be just fine.

[rusted]

Ahh I think I remember why the sub panels are not supposed to be bonded nuetral to ground. If you have a neutral fault or a ground fault, it's possible to put more current on the neutral conductor than what it's rated for, because it would have to carry both legs of the 220v. A seperate ground conductor ensures that you have enough carrying capacity for both types of faults. I think, anyway, you're supposed to have them unbonded in a subpanel, I know that for sure.

[F-Trooper]

those look like "Zinsco" breakers (old & expensive to replace). most electrical supply houses sell clips so you can gang for 220v. if they ever need replacing it would be cheaper to replace with newer panel & update to current codes. you could add more circuits if main supply would allow.

[PARANOID56]

those look like "Zinsco" breakers (old & expensive to replace). most electrical supply houses sell clips so you can gang for 220v. if they ever need replacing it would be cheaper to replace with newer panel & update to current codes. you could add more circuits if main supply would allow.


Yea, thats what i was thinking. I am going to look at what the braker that is feeding this is rated at. and posably upgrade the pannel to something newer and some what larger (if i can)

and since i would be the only one working in the garage at a time, i dont think i would be exceding anything.
Shane

[Oxjockey]

Attached or detached structure?


Unbonded in a sub because if your neutral fails, you'll be carrying your neutral over the ground.

If it's detached, you need a ground rod, attached, just seperate the neutral and ground bar. Edit: Add a ground bar. :D

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see a ground coming in through the mains at all...?

[Gummi Bear]

No, there's likely no ground with it. Zinsco was bought out by Sylvania several years back, and you pay through the nu-nu for replacement breakers. You also don't have near enough wire bending space in the panel to satisfy current code, that changed in the late 80's. I'm guessing that panel was installed sometime between 75-85.

It'll work, but it sounds like you want to add some receptacles and such, so I'd go ahead and swap it out for a newer panel. I like the Square D, QO series, or the Cutler Hammer CH series panels, for their construction and reliability. I don't care for home series panels, IMO, the breakers don't make as good of contact with the bus bars as do the more commerically targeted panels.

Since this is a sub-panel, you do not bond the neutral and the ground together. It is against code, for a number of reasons (as stated by rusted) and another reason is induced current. You do need for your grounds to bond to the main panel. Adding a ground rod is kind of a gray area, it depends on your local AHJ. I don't like to, for the potential induced current that can travel on the bonding jumper between your main and sub panels, it can make things messy (especially electronics). I'd add a bonding jumper (ground wire) from your sub panel ground bar back to the main panel and call it good (consult NEC T250.122 for this conductor size once you determine your sub panel ampere rating) (for anyone that wants to argue, T250.66 is for SERVICE conductors only)

In short, hire an electrician if you aren't comfortable with it. I'd hate to hear of someone getting injured due to an improper installation.

[randii]

Adding a ground rod is kind of a gray area, it depends on your local AHJ. I don't like to, for the potential induced current that can travel on the bonding jumper between your main and sub panels, it can make things messy (especially electronics).

Bonding a sub is a no-go, in an attached building... but I don't see a real downside to adding a driven ground at the sub IN ADDITION to connecting all the grounds at the main (and bonding neutral to ground there only). GB, do you mean to say that secondary off-main grounds can add noise? I've always assumed you couldn't possibly have TOO good of a ground (or too many of 'em).

Randii

[Gummi Bear]

It's kind of an argument amongst engineers, but I look at it from an experience standpoint. I like to keep my grounding simple, one point of connection to mother earth, and bond all else together. I realize that in a steel framed structure you're still being bonded at each device, and all, but from a distribution standpoint, I like to have one point to avoid any potential for funky ground behavior. I've witnessed potential in grounds that were bonded in multiple locations, and it can be a booger to diagnose when you're the poor bugger pulling every panel cover trying to figure it out (been there done that, I came up through the field)

Each new service gets a grounding electrode and gets the neutral and ground bonded in the panel. Sub panels are regarded like a piece of equipment with a ground back to the main panel or point of service.

For example: at my house, which I re-wired about 4 years ago, I put in a triad, hit the cold water and bonded the neutral and ground at the main panel. I'm adding a new main panel outside, and making the existing panel into a sub this spring when I do some re-work, and build a new service. The sub will have a ground back to the main, and all bonding will occur there. I am wanting to get a larger circuit out to the shed (so I can get a bigger compressor, and bring my welder home from the farm) and add some more receptacles out near the driveway, including another welder receptacle, so I can work on my rig at the house.

[R290]

Nice blue wire:flipoff2: ( I know your renting)
Can you show a bigger shot, can't tell if this is mounted in the wall or on the surface. If it's in the wall, I would just get a clip for the breaker. ( I might even have one laying around) and run a "ground" wire. The ground ( green)should attach to the box and the neutral ( white) needs to be isolated from the metal box. Also move that green wire over to the new green ground on the box. To test the breaker push slowly to off, if you can go past halfway and the breaker has not tripped it's bad and won't trip when over loaded. Other then that you looking good. Other gave good advice, and if the breakers are bad, you can buy a new box and breaker for way less.

[PARANOID56]

This is a attached garage. The braker feeding this pannel is a 60amp braker. and there are three wires feeding this, two hot, and one ground. if you look at the center main inlet, you will see three black wires, the ground goes all the way around, and attaches to the bottom of the netural bank. (not sure if this helps)

[PARANOID56]

this box is mounted on the wall. I think i am going to just get a new box for this, and ditch all of it. anybody know the proper size i need?
Thanks again for all the help.
Shane

[Sapper]

I agree that an upgrade would be ideal. If it is an attached garage then I would run a seperate ground larger than the existing ground wire shown back to the existing house panel. I would also reccommend the SquareD line for replacement panels.

In some areas here if the panel has been connected with Conduit (ridgid) this is considered the grounding path but I don't trust this. I would also run a neutral gang (not bonded to ground). It is not difficult to redo what you have there and it shouldn't be that much to improve.

[rusted]

It's kind of an argument amongst engineers, but I look at it from an experience standpoint. I like to keep my grounding simple, one point of connection to mother earth, and bond all else together. I realize that in a steel framed structure you're still being bonded at each device, and all, but from a distribution standpoint, I like to have one point to avoid any potential for funky ground behavior. I've witnessed potential in grounds that were bonded in multiple locations, and it can be a booger to diagnose when you're the poor bugger pulling every panel cover trying to figure it out (been there done that, I came up through the field)

I agree with that 100%. I am not an electrician but I am an electronics technician who worked on a radar with about 50 units spread out over 4 decks and a mast, and gummibear is speaking true experience in MY experience.

In any case my inspector gave me no choice.

[R290]

I am not an electrician but I am an electronics technician.
Great :rolleyes: Since in them there electrionic class you know the power really flows from the ground side to the positive side. Thats the reason for the two grounds isolated from each other at the subpanel:flipoff2: One for "current flow" and one as a saftey ground. All grounds get tied together at one point, which is the "main" panel ground bar, which is tied to mother earth. No dis intended but most people don't get the reason for an isolated ground at the sub panel and tie them together:mad3: As for that ship ( hell if I know:p ) But I sure thought trial and error the Navy figured it out.:D

[rusted]

Great :rolleyes: Since in them there electrionic class you know the power really flows from the ground side to the positive side. Thats the reason for the two grounds isolated from each other at the subpanel:flipoff2: One for "current flow" and one as a saftey ground. All grounds get tied together at one point, which is the "main" panel ground bar, which is tied to mother earth. No dis intended but most people don't get the reason for an isolated ground at the sub panel and tie them together:mad3: As for that ship ( hell if I know:p ) But I sure thought trial and error the Navy figured it out.:D

whoops I thought he meant to put all the ground back to the main panel bonded to the one point of connection to mother earth.

thanks for all the useless smartass comments though, if you were paying attention that close why didn't you wonder why I contradicted my earlier rambling, useless post? :fliopff2:

As far as power flowing from the ground to the positive side, they taught us that a/c didn't have a positive side but maybe you electricians learned a different type of electricity from the one I used. :flipoff2:

I don't know how those snipes did the 220 outlets but on the 110s the big slot is hot! Floating ground and all that mumbo jumbo. :rolleyes:

[Oxjockey]

Great :rolleyes: Since in them there electrionic class you know the power really flows from the ground side to the positive side.

Can you elaborate?

[Pook]

sure looks like there is no bond for the mains coming in, unless its a pipe coming in, just make sure the nuts are tight. pull that green off the neutral bar (if its actaully is a ground you never know with do it yourselfers...) and bond it to the can. Make sure there is no jumper between the nuetral bus and the can...sometimes it just a longer bolt through the bus into the can.

Whats the amperage for your welder? and the cord size? On a rental house providing you use the proper wire to you welder plug (60 amp rating) I'd probably just tie into the main lugs for the sub panel, its allready fused. Just unplug your welder when no in use.

Its not "right" but I am an electrician and its done all the time for temporary situations no problem...Breakers are there to protect your wire not the machine plugged in.

[Travis Waldher]

Breakers are there to protect your wire not the machine plugged in.

Actually, when it comes to equipment like welders, compressors, etc. breakers are there to protect both.

[rusted]

Can you elaborate?

Electrons are negatively charged. Current flow is from the negative side to the positive side.

[Pook]

Actually, when it comes to equipment like welders, compressors, etc. breakers are there to protect both.

true in some cases but really depends on the machine and situation, motor starters, thermal overloads etc.

If it was my own machine and I needed a 50 amp breaker to run it at a rental house with $ brakers , it is what I would do...

[R290]

After rereading my post I was a bit obtuse, I apologize about that Rusted.
I really should have called it the neutral wire, not a ground wire, as you should have one of each
There are two schools of thought on electrical current flow; one is “electron” flow, where the free electrons get push from one atom to the other. The other theory is “hole” flow. Physicist go by this one

But back to the question, yes you could “make” it work the way it is. But as you can see everyone says bring it up to code. That “neutral” wire needs a bit more white tape too.
I would read the owners manual, but looks like a 20 amp breaker is big enough.

[rusted]

After rereading my post I was a bit obtuse, I apologize about that Rusted.
I really should have called it the neutral wire, not a ground wire, as you should have one of each
There are two schools of thought on electrical current flow; one is “electron” flow, where the free electrons get push from one atom to the other. The other theory is “hole” flow. Physicist go by this one

But back to the question, yes you could “make” it work the way it is. But as you can see everyone says bring it up to code. That “neutral” wire needs a bit more white tape too.
I would read the owners manual, but looks like a 20 amp breaker is big enough.
No problems I fired back, PBB norm, at least you didn't get carried away.

You found a mistake and beat me up about ti, join the club, I fawk up all the time. :D

[R290]

on the 110s the big slot is hot! :rolleyes:

No problem.

"Hot", well at this point which wire is that :confused:
The black wire small slot, white wire larger slot.:D

[rusted]

No problem.

"Hot", well at this point which wire is that :confused:
The black wire small slot, white wire larger slot.:D

On the ship, both wires are hot, 55v on each. As a matter of fact, we DRMO's about 100 UPS's because they were not sat for that type of setup. All plug in appliances had to be checked out, some modified.

[SkyHiK5]

The rules I use to tell every green helper ever handed to me;
Copper Hot
Silver Not
IF it don't move; GROUND IT
:flipoff2: