Welcome to the next installment of the

Topic of the Week

The subject for the week is safety. We've been talking about how to make your rig perform better... now it's time to talk about how to take care of you and your passengers on your adventures.

Please do NOT discuss cages... that's being reserved for another TOTW.

Some suggested points of discussion:
- First Aid
- Preparation
- Proper use of extraction tools
- Educating
- Knowing your limits while pushing your rig to its limits

I carry two Warn bags full of extraction stuff with me everywhere I go, even when I'm not in the 4x4. In it, I have tree-savers, extra winch cable, HUGE straps, etc. I also carry at least one deluxe first-aid kit with me everywhere I go. I have at least one quick-release fire-extuinguisher attached to the cage, and never throttle it until everyone is clear. Furthermore, I am American Red Cross Professionally CPR Certified and First-Aid Certified, which get renewed every year, and three years, respectively. I on't go into too much discussion of my cage, but I have welded in some handles on the inside so that no one needs to grab the outside of the cage and get their fingers rolled on.

J. J.

Here's a safety issue I'd like to hear some thoughts on. Every body says don't wheel alone, but I take a lot of solo camping trips just rambling/exploring through national forests with my canoe on top. I don't leave an itinerary because I don't know where I'm going or when I'll be back (and I don't want the sheriffs looking for me if I decide to stay an extra day or two). I carry lots of food and water and of course shelter/weather protection. I always have hiking boots and good maps and always know where I am, so I could hike a day or two if I had to get out that way. I take :smokin: and :beer: in case I need any medication :D

So, what have I left out? Any suggestions on how I could be better prepared on these solo trips? What scenario could come along that could kill me that I'm not prepared for? About the worst I can think of is breaking a leg and some ribs if the jeep rolled, but I've got food and water and fire so I could hang around the wreck a few days and maybe set the tires on fire to summon help. I guess I could get appendicitis or something, but that's not too likely. Anybody have any ideas?

I personally make sure I always bring some type of communication to get to the outside world. Also have extraction available in the area no matter what. As for first aid, I currently don't carry anything, but I soon will. I have knowledge of first aid techniques, as my dad has been on rescue squad for my entire life, besides my training in boy scouts and such. As for extraction, I always use treesavers, and parachute the line when winching, as well as make sure as many people as possible are out of the line of fire of the cable.

cool a topic I can participate in.
In my rig, I carry a full assortment of tools, including voltmeters and 1/2" sockets. I also carry a bumper jack,(but I want a Hi-lift soon) I carry a shovel, tow straps, and extra fluids of all types that the jeep needs.
I have a fire extinguisher handy(within reach of the drivers seat) a deluxe first aid kit in a water proof container. I have built a box the full size of the bed area that is enclosed and locked when driving, so none of my tools will come after me in an accident.

surveyboy

Man, I've learned the hard way why you shoudl never wheel alone. I've been burnt not once, but twice, by my stupidity. Sure, everything would have been fine had I had the self control not to try the hard sections of the trails, but I don't. I don't even go near gravel roads unless there's someone with a vehicle that can follow mine! :)

J. J.

All you need to stay safe is WD40, a razor blade, a Vise grip, and a Zippo.

But seriously, there's a happy medium somewhere in between going spartanly equipped and stowing a whole extra Jeep in your ActionPacker. I remember going camping as a tike with the motto "be prepared" driving me to lug a 125lb rucksack into the patch of woods behind my grandfather's shed. I was sure as hell prepared, but at what cost?

The safety equipment is a must... we all know anything can happen and even if you can't get the Jeep limping down the trail, it's best that you remain one functional unit that is not currently consumed by fire. This includes personal preparation for the climate you're driving in... extra water, blankets, whatever is necessary to keep you alive in the weather. Communication is a definite 2nd... CB or cell phone or flare gun or whatnot... anything to let someone far away know that you are in a situation you'd rather not be. 3rd would be basic tools to handle small annoying problems, like a loose bolt or snapped hose or something simple.

After that, the specialized tools and spare parts come in. Here's where I have points to debate. Now, spare replaceables, like spark plugs, wires, hoses, etc, I understand... but some advice I've heard recommends bringing spares for anything that's broken at least twice... my question is, if it broke twice, what the hell are you still doing relying upon it to get you where you need to go? As much as I adore laying in 2" of mud under a Jeep on the trail replacing the broke-again stock starter, perhaps a stronger and more reliable part is in order, placed well in advance of any risky trip to give you time to work the kinks out.

Another plus of going offroad with others, especially others that drive long-wheelbase vehicles, is that you can split up the tools amongst yourselves. There's probably little reason to have 8 brake bleeder wrenches along on the trip. Much moreso is the case for larger things. Likewise, common spares like u-joints or plugs or fluids can be pooled amongst the group.

This is all probably common sense to most, but it's still pretty important. I just hate to see a fella bring less than his share of beer because he had to make room for his spare transfer case (a sadly true occurance).

I think safety is really important and all, but is this really a "college level" topic?

Use common sense, don't stand too close things under pressure (winch, shop press, etc.) and don't die.

Originally posted by CJ5-man
I think safety is really important and all, but is this really a "college level" topic?

Use common sense, don't stand too close things under pressure (winch, shop press, etc.) and don't die.

I think it can be college level, depending on the answers. I mean, "don't die" might not be (cool answer, though) but the more and harder you wheel, the more bad things have probably happened to you and so you've learned more things to watch out for. On my own pet interest, I never would have gone wheeling alone when I was just learning, but after all the trouble I've been in and gotten out of, I feel perfectly comfortable going alone now. But I'm still interested to hear somebody else's take on what might happen to me, so I can try to guard against that too.

I'll keep checking this topic out to see if I'm wrong, but I don't see anything about this thread thats extreme or "college level". My opinion is if you are into the world of exterme off-roading and have "paid your dues", your not going to be a dumbass and safety shouldn't be a real issue.

If you haven't "paid your dues" then you really shouldn't be doing any extreme off roading and instead focus on beginner topics, perhaps on another jeep website(?)


there, I've hit my limit of quotation marks for the day.

One of the most important, things I do when wheeling with a passenger who hasnt wheeled with me before, or if it has been a while, is to thoroughly check them out on the winch and the recovery gear. I show him where his gloves are, what to watch for, and what I may expect from him in a situation demanding quick response. The time to explain to your passenger how to get a strap around a tree, and play out some line in free spool, is not when your on halfway up "Widowmaker", on 3 wheels, with a broken front driveshaft.

Originally posted by CJ5-man
I'll keep checking this topic out to see if I'm wrong, but I don't see anything about this thread thats extreme or "college level". My opinion is if you are into the world of exterme off-roading and have "paid your dues", your not going to be a dumbass and safety shouldn't be a real issue.

If you haven't "paid your dues" then you really shouldn't be doing any extreme off roading and instead focus on beginner topics, perhaps on another jeep website(?)


there, I've hit my limit of quotation marks for the day.


SAFETY IS ALWAYS AN ISSUE!!! nomatter what your involved in ,safety should be the #1 priority:rolleyes:

Originally posted by CJ5-man
I think safety is really important and all, but is this really a "college level" topic?


Absolutely a college level topic.

Safety usually doesn't become a concern when you're running fire roads. It's when you start doing some of the more advanced trail riding that things start breaking, you start rolling, and people start getting hurt. Check that guy at EJS this past week who took a dive off Lion's Back :eek:

Also, once we reach this level, many of us begin to neglect some of the simpler things, beliveing we are immune to such things. The "Watch this!" mentality has hit us all once or twice, and that's when things can get hairy.

Originally posted by CJ5-man
I'll keep checking this topic out to see if I'm wrong, but I don't see anything about this thread thats extreme or "college level". My opinion is if you are into the world of exterme off-roading and have "paid your dues", your not going to be a dumbass and safety shouldn't be a real issue.

If you haven't "paid your dues" then you really shouldn't be doing any extreme off roading and instead focus on beginner topics, perhaps on another jeep website(?)


there, I've hit my limit of quotation marks for the day.


It just needs to be addressed and answered at the extreme level.
An answer like, "bring band-aids in case you cut your finger", is inapropriate, but many topics are not.
Advanced winching and spotting techniques, carrying welding filters, (and a strong sunblock) for extended welding repairs, with no mask, among other along those lines are helpful safety suggestions at the college level.
Besides its always good to rehash safety issues even for somebody so experienced as yourself :rolleyes: , its common practice to refresh even lifetime proffesionals who work in hazardouse occupations.
So, sorry if we are boring you though with the sophmoric discussion, just try to tolerate us for a week, and then chime in when we get to the really complicated stuff next week:flipoff2:

Lets talk about tieing in all your stuff. In the event of a roll you really need to have all your gear tied in so that it doesn't get crushed or become a projectile. Bungie cords are nice but you really should use tie-downs like motorcycle tie-downs to keeep things in place.

Not that I have ever rolled but it sounds like a good idea:flipoff2:

Hmmmm..... for fixing the rig I take bailing wire, duct tape, electrical tape, 2 jumper cables to use as a welder, 6013 rod, sockets, Big Fu%#ing hammer, vice grips, and a couple of c clamps.
For fixing me I take execdrin:) oh ya and some water........
I was camping just above lions back this weekend at EJS and saw the wreckage of the Yota..... Maybe i need to bring more stuff to fix me ;) Cuz if i ever wreck that bad i dont think my jeep will need the other stuff i brought along.....

Good topic! If I could afford a winch, Id run one. But alas, I don't have any money. As far as safety on the trail, Ive got a first aid kit, fix a flat, a tire wrench, spare front shafts, soon to have spare rear shafts, always a full size spare, and seatbelts for all my passengers. I also carry a box of misc bolts and nuts to make a trail fix, along with lots of tools.
Scott

how about alcohol on the trail????

Originally posted by nmujeepin
how about alcohol on the trail????


Sure!! what do you got? :rasta:

Honestly though, you absolutely better not be drunk behind the wheel.
Whether or not you have a beer or two while driving a trail,..well all I can say is you better know your limits, and not exceed them. You also need to respect the feeling of the others you are wheeling with.
Its a thin line.
Drunks on the trail are fawkin idiots. Save it for the campfire!

How about what to do when you start going over? I haven't yet, and I'm hoping when it happens I have the good sense to grab the wheel with both hands and pull myself down. I'm always worried the wife is going to do something stupid and try to stop the Jeep from rolling :eek:

My thoughts on passenger safety during a roll are to have plenty of "Oh sh!t" handles within reach of each passenger. Explain to them that this handle is the only safe place to grab if the situation gets dicey....

i had a buddy that put his hand outside the jeep when i was about to roll. i started to worry about him and not what i was doing and it could have been much worse if i would have rolled on his hands....(i did not roll, but it was close)

i agree with H8 you need to tell your passanger what is about to go down so they dont freek out at a tricky time and end up getting hurt. i usualy tell my passanger to get out if i am going to do something that i think i might roll doing or if it's a tricky spot.

Chris G.

After reading the Garage Shots thread, I'll throw these in.

1. A highlift is not a suitable way to lift your rig if you're going to be wrenching under it.
2. Cinderblocks should not be used to boost the height of your puny jackstands
3. Put a tire under the rig near you if you're crawling underneath. That way if it does fall, it won't crush you between the floor and the frame... only between the frame and the tire. Those few inches can save your life.
4. Cutting torches are hotter than shit. Be careful where you set them.
5. Wear eye protection. Even SillyNeck does this!

Take a look at your friends that you wheel with and ask yourself, do I trust them enough to care for me if I were hurt? Trust is more than knowing they want to help. Do they have the abilities?

I know some have EMT skills, others are first responders which is outstanding, but I think everyone should have basic first aid and CPR training and a well stocked first aid kit.

My first aid training is out of date and I'm my adult/infant/child CPR is almost 2 years ago so its time for a refresher on both.

So, I've got 3 things on my to do list
1) repack the first aid kit
2) renew my CPR training
3) renew my basic first aid training

I would love to know what an experienced EMT would have in their first aid kit suitable for a Jeep. I have yet to find a first aid kit that seemed worth a damn and am always adding to mine.

How about it? Anyone qualified?

Originally posted by BigHG
I would love to know what an experienced EMT would have in their first aid kit suitable for a Jeep. I have yet to find a first aid kit that seemed worth a damn and am always adding to mine.

How about it? Anyone qualified?

Ok I am qualified, but it might suprise you to know that all I have in my first aid kit is a traingular bandage, rubber gloves and some gauze. I do have a roll of duct tape in the tool box. I am an EMT, I also volunteer for our local search and rescue, the truth is that most first aid is common sense, about all that can be done in the field is stop the bleeding/make patient comfortable until the pro's get there. As part of SAR I carry O2 and K.E.D./C-collar the works I have yet to use any of this stuff except in training. If you know what you are doing there is not much you can't do with just simple supplies.

I guess the real answer to the above question and perhaps the entire topic is use your head. Learn first aid, learn to winch learn to repair your rig. The most important tool in the box is your brain.

Jeff

Originally posted by Seeker


I guess the real answer to the above question and perhaps the entire topic is use your head. Learn first aid, learn to winch learn to repair your rig. The most important tool in the box is your brain.

Jeff

Seeker is talking the truth here.

I am an "experienced" paramedic with extensive training in wilderness (yes, it's called wilderness) emergency medical training, SAR and technical rescue. I have also been an educator for many years.

The best thing to do would take a quality first aid course, this will give you some hands on skills and a good idea of what you may need for the basics. There is also "wilderness" specific medical training that would be PERFECT for most wheelers.

The medical definition of wilderness is an area that is at least either 1 mile or 1 hour (think vertical environment) from nearest road access (a road an ambulance can drive on).

What is different about the first aid is that you must be prepared to deal with someone with less materials/equipment that is available in a normal urban/rural environment...improvisation may be necessary, and you must be prepared to care for the person for a longer period of time....the ambulance isn't 5 , 10, or even twenty minutes away. You could be with this person for hours, or even days.

By this definition, most of the places people wheel will be defined as wilderness and the training will be appropriate.

I (and I'm sure others) would be more than glad to offer first aid "ideas" tailored to wheelers....topics that could be covered would be, for example:

-trauma
-environmental emergencies (heat/cold)
-medical emergencies

Charly

What items would you recommend to be in a good "wilderness" first aid kit? I normally don't like buying kits because they put in a bunch of crap you don't need and leave out stuff you do. I'd rather get a box and buy the stuff to fill it.

Thanks,
RR3

Originally posted by RR3
What items would you recommend to be in a good "wilderness" first aid kit?

Ok, I'm no EMT, but I looked at what was in a small kit as a starting point and put one together from stuff around the house. Here's a link that shows contents for ideas. http://www.firstaidsupplies.com.au/easyweb/?pageno=03

A tip I was given a while back... Mini pads and Maxi pads. (yes femine pads) These make excellent bandages. They absorb alot of blood and are non-stick. The min pads can be cut to size/shape and held in place with tape.

They were also "free" (swiped them from my wife)...

Another bonus, is if you come across a lady in need, you will be a life saver...

micropore tape is the other thing I keep in the jeep at all times. Works great for small cuts in wet environments, but it can also will hold a gaping wound together. BTDT.

Originally posted by CJ5-man
I think safety is really important and all, but is this really a "college level" topic?

Use common sense, don't stand too close things under pressure (winch, shop press, etc.) and don't die.

Maybe you know it all:flipoff2: But there are a lot of newbies and rookies that read the board, and maybe they will learn something from someone and use it somewhere:D

" dont stand too close & don't die " really contributed a lot to the thread.:rolleyes:

Personal safety should be exercized Irregardless if you are out on the trail, or just in the garage performing a routine "tune-up."

While out on the trail, there are the obvious safety issues, but when you're up in the high country, inclement weather should also be of concern. I've seen snow fall on the 4th of July before up in the high mtns. of Colo. Didn't amount to much, but the cold that came along with it sure did make an impression. Also as usual, take the basic food rations, even if you don't think that you're not planning to stay long.

In the shop, there are all sorts of automotive chemicals that are flammable, jacking and hoisting issues, as well as the common knowledge of using jack stands which meet or exceed the specified ratings of your rig. Keep shop floors clean as to prevent possible injuries from tripping over your tools/parts/junk.

There are many more issues of course, just read the posts before this one to get the broader spectrum of it all.

Safety is ALWAYS a huge concern. This is YOUR life and health, as well as others around you, that is impacted the greatest. :nuke:

I think this is a pretty good topic. The only things I can add may seem like common sense, but I've seen MANY experienced wheelers not do them.

If you're stuck or in a precarious position, have your passenger unass the vehicle if you can't trust them to be safe in a rollover.

Watch the people outside your vehicle (spotters, watchers, etc.). Just because you're experienced, doesn't mean everyone else is. Several times, I've had to ask people to move out of the potential rollover fall line. Sure, maybe it's not your "responsibility" as a driver, but I certainly don't want to see anyone hurt.

Along those lines, many times people will be around/under/behind your vehicle to stack a rock (not for me, though) or see what you're hung up on. I usually try to count the people around to make sure no one is near the rig when I start attempting forward motion again. I always yell out "moving forward" or "backing up" (not that I ever take the backup point, either) BEFORE moving.
Dion

COLLEGE IS 100% COLLEGE QUESTION..
WITH OUT SAFTEY UR JUST A JACKASSS WAITING TO HURT UR SELF OR SUM ONE.. PRSONALLY I CARRY WHAT I NEED. HI LIFT JACK SPARE TIRE.. TOOLS. FLUIDS.. AND ANYTHING ELSE. THAT MIGHT GO WRONG.. AND IT DONT MEAN CARRING AUTOZOE IN UR BACK POCKET.. BUT SAFTEY IS A ISSUE WE SHOULD ALL LOOK AT.. WHAT WOULD DO IF DURING A ROLL OVER U CRUSHED ONE OF UR BUDDIES? OR EVEN A FAMILY MEMBER? SO EACH SITUATION NEEDS DIFFERENT GEAR.. SO LOOK AT WHERE UR GOING AND WHO UR GOING WITH .. AND PACK UR GEAR ACCORDING.. SHARE RESPONISBLITIES. AS ME AND MY FELLOW WHEELERS DO.. ILL CARRY THE FUEL SOME ONE ELSE WIL CARRY THE FOODAND DRINKS..
BUT WE ALL CARRY FIRE EXT.. AD FIRST AID. SO DONT BE STUPID :flipoff2:

Originally posted by oopsdidmyjeeproostya


http://www.manifestation.org/~ill/images/funny/capslock.gif

I was talkin' to a buddy of mine that does a lot of back packin' with his wife about this stuff. He recently took a wilderness first aid course at the local REI store. It was taught by a PHD, and the course was FREE!

I personally have some medic training from the military, but it was geared towards "projectile induced trauma". I have to agree with seeker, that a lot of First Aid is common sense, stop the bleeding, and get the pros. I carry a small first aid kit w/bandaids (makes my kids 'ochies' feel better) pain killer, calamine lotion, ect... stuff you need for general incidents, plus it has a few trama type bandages.

Something I haven't seen addressed yet, does anyone carry a firearm for personal defense against wild critters, or two legged vermin? If so, what type (handgun, longarm) and what caliber? There have been some incidents with bears up in the Cascades, nothin' serious, yet. I was thinkin' about a Marlin 444 lever action, just in case. Big enough for bear yet in a rather small package. My buddy is thinkin' of a 454 Casull for the same reason. I don't think he has shot one before and I have heard their not for the 'inexperienced' which he is. Any thoughts?

Shooting a bear isn't a good idea. Tends to make them mad, for some reason. Even if you shoot them in the right place, which is hard, they don't die immediately and they only need a few seconds to screw you up good.

Depends where I am whether I carry a firearm or not. When I do, it's a 30-30 Winchester. Not my hunting rifle, just a trusty saddle rifle. Ammo is easy to find and cheap. Rifle is inexpensive, accurate to 100 yds (iron sights), more muzzle velocity and energy than any pistol (even the casull) and takes bouncing around in the back of a Jeep with no complaint.

RR3

I think one important and simple first aid topic is dehydration. When people are on long trips in the outdoors, they tend to get dehydrated. When you get dehydrated it can cause fatigue, stomach problems, and all sorts of bad stuff. The easyest way to stay hydrated is to drink WATER (coke can actually cause you to become more dehydrated), 4 quarts is a good number. A way to tell if you are dehydrated is if your urine is clear.

I know it's somthing simple and easy but it's one of those things that can make your trip a living hell.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
As for a small first aid kit, when I used to backpack we carried somthing a little bit like this:

1. Medications in small lightweight plastic bottles:
a. Tylenol
b. Advil
c. Steroid tablets (Decadron 4mg)
d. Tegamet 300mg (for stomach acid)
e. Maalox
f. Antihistamine (Benadryl, Seldane)
g. Anti-nausea (Phenergan 25mg)
h. Antibiotic (Keflex 250mg or Vantin 200mg)
i. Tylenol with Codeine (optional)
j. Cortisporin ear drops
i. Cough medication (tab of cough suppression med)
j. Ventolin inhaler (for wheeze)
k. Imodium tablets (for diarrhea)
l. Visine eye drops
m. Antibiotic Ointment
n. Hydrocortisone & Benzacaine Ointment (Cortaid, etc)
(for bites, allergy rash, & crotch irritation)

2. Roll of tape, and Mole skin (6 sheets)

3. Bandaids: a. Regular size elastic
b. "H" elastic
c. Large
4. Ace wrap 2in width

5. Scissors, tweezers and safety pins
6. Iodine tablets for water purification, or purification pump
7. DUCT TAPE - DUCT TAPE - DUCT TAPE

Great topic, and often overlooked until needed.

Putting on the thinking cap and anticipating what you might need is great, but also give some thought to what you are not willing to leave home without.


Safety gear can be categorized into one of three groups.

Vital

Merely Critical

and Just Important.

To me Vital is the bare minimum that I would not leave home without.

This is the life sustaining or live enabling "Stuff" like:

Water (1 gal per person)
Power Bars (4 per person)
Pocket Knife
Two aluminized "Space Blankets" per person
Matches and a Lighter
Compass
Roll of Duck Tape
Twenty Dollars


What's Merely Critical?

And what's just important we can all decide on our own.

Just make sure you can sustain and enable life, "without fail".

Hopefully you will grow old thinking you wasted a lot of time and energy humping the Vital stuff around cause you never had a need to use it.

Hope this thought is helpful to some.

Frank

All the above items are great to bring along.

On the firearms topic. Everyday I have a Glock 19 in my TJ, on extended offroad trips my Smithy 357mag rides along too.

Parking my Jeep, heading into the woods on foot to scout out a new hunting area I encountered 4 black bears, all at once, all within 20 yards of me. Holy S!!T that was scary!!. One shot in the air scared sent them running away (lucky for me). My Smith probably saved my life that day!

Wedge I carry a H&K USP .40 everyday and a 681 S&W on the trail. I had a hair raising experience a couple of years ago on opening day for mountian lakes. My buddy and I were hiking up to Lost lake to fish. A 2 hour hike through snow pack to find a sheet of ice over most of the lake, even though it was 75+ that day. Anyway we saw cougar tracks, and spoors (poop) on the way up. On the way back, he left us a leg bone from a deer right in the middle of the trial. I felt better w/ the /357 but I would have loved to have something along the lines of a good old 30-30! That is why I asked what everyone carried.

As for shooting bears, I don't. My best friend's grandpa use to shoot them with a .22. It's all about bullet placement.