i pulled the PTO cover to inspect the magnet and check for wear. i was pleased to find not too much gunk on the magnet, and everything looked clean... then i felt around the magnet and found a small half ring.:( it is aproximatly 1cm across, the normal end straightens out for the last 1/8" or so. it is broken so it looks like a C with the broken endge looking borken, not sheared.

Where did this come from, and more importantly, what is is and what was it doing?:confused:

Thanks, Matt:(

If it is 1 cm wide, and it is a flat piece of circular spring steel about 3/4 inch in diameter, it is the pilot bearing retainer spring. See item 29 in the attached picture. It is not a big deal if it is on your magnet. It is only used to hold the needle bearings in place during assembly.

<img src="http://www.kinzers.com/don/landcruiser/transmissions/sm420/doc/300x300/sm420_3.jpg">

holy craaaaaaapola:eek: . downsize that bad boy suka!:rasta: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Fixxxxer66
then i felt around the magnet and found a small half ring.:( it is aproximatly 1cm across, the normal end straightens out for the last 1/8" or so.
Thanks, Matt:(

Isn't 1 cm about 4"? A ring about 4" in dia. and 1/16" thick would probably a retaining ring.
Mike

Originally posted by flexing40


Isn't 1 cm about 4"? A ring about 4" in dia. and 1/16" thick would probably a retaining ring.
Mike

Yikes!!! WAY OFF. 1 inch is about 2.54 cm!! Or 1cm is .39 inches!

yup you are right. I put the decimal point on the wrong side of the 3. Thanks for putting me straight.:smokin:

Originally posted by flexing40
yup you are right. I put the decimal point on the wrong side of the 3. Thanks for putting me straight.:smokin:
No prob, just buy me a :beer: next time you see me!!;)

hey newbie:flipoff2: ! do the math!!!

na, just bustin' your balls. i just had to butt in since the freight doggy was so friendly in correcting you.:D

Originally posted by orangefj45
... since the freight doggy was so friendly ...

Just my nature, until you get to know me, or is it until I get to know you? Heck, I can't remember!!:confused:

OK now that we know that my metric math sucks, can we determine what fixxxxers extra ring is?? ;) fixxxer66 can you give another description of this part you found?
Mike

it hard to describe without a picture... Damn the red star... if someone would be willing to post it for me i can take a digital pic tomarrow and email it to them....
:(
Matt

DCruiser138@msn.com

Originally posted by Fixxxxer66
it hard to describe without a picture... Damn the red star... if someone would be willing to post it for me i can take a digital pic tomarrow and email it to them....
:(
Matt

Send it my way, I'll post it for you!

how cute...
http://www.rivercityrockcrawlers.com/~dcruiser138/fixxxxxxxer.jpg
:rasta:

in case your wondering....thats what fixxxxxer found. thats the thing he wanted to show. so...what is it?!:rasta:

It looks like a piece of the spring thingy that is sort of like a hairpin that fits into the second gear (part 41) and serves as a detent for the prongs of the first gear (part 43). The spring is not shown on the parts diagram. You should be able to see these (there are two) with the top cover off without disassembling the tranny. If it is, I would disassemble it and make sure that the springs are OK as you don't want it popping out of gear.

Thanks man, so it might be part of a spring huh? hmm. anyone else verify this?
Thanks, Matt:)

I think Pinhead is right. Those spring thingys are on the rear side of the gear.

Originally posted by Pin Head
It looks like a piece of the spring thingy that is sort of like a hairpin that fits into the second gear (part 41) and serves as a detent for the prongs of the first gear (part 43). The spring is not shown on the parts diagram. You should be able to see these (there are two) with the top cover off without disassembling the tranny. If it is, I would disassemble it and make sure that the springs are OK as you don't want it popping out of gear.

I had to replace my part #43 ,second speed gear syncronizer cone... one of the energizer lugs/ears was broken off :eek: It (broken lug)wasn't inside the case either. :eek: Contacted the previous owner and he neglected to tell me he dropped the part and broke the ear off during a rebuild.:mad: It all turned out good as he put it back together found it would not work so he parked the truck for 15 years. The part in question is definately part of the syncronizer energizing spring. The part is less than a 1$. I can get you one if you need. I would change both springs.I would check everything out real good , that can cause the cone to wear unevenly on the
second speed syncronizer. Mine had to be replaced.

good luck

bennett

Originally posted by bennett


The part is less than a 1$. I can get you one if you need.

Hey Bennett,

Can you get any other sm420 parts? I'm thinking of replacing the 3-4 synchro assembly. I can get the rings, but I can't figure out why my 3rd gear synchro is weak, since there was no obvious wear on the synchro ring or the 3rd gear dog teeth or cone. The only thing that has a lot of obvious wear is the synchro hub, so I'm thinking about replacing it along with the rings.

I don't like double clutching it.

Pin,

I would be glad to check on any parts you need. I have a source which bought up a pot-load of sm420s and tons of parts from the Toole Army Depot. Interesting to note that he said the 420's were used in Gamma Goats and small Tanks:eek: The company is Tourist Auto in SLC. "parts are not a problem" he told me to my face. Let me know the specifics and if you want new or used. I was picking up syncros one day when he told me there were two styles of syncros :confused: Could be part of the problem. The varied as much as .125 in thickness. I could have you contact them but I sorta have a in with one guy that will take the time to answer all questions and not blow me off like other trans shops.
Get me the numbers your interested in(1 thru 67 on your diagram) and I'll check price/availability first of next week. If it is what your looking for I will put you in touch with the right guy for purchase. I am in SLC once a week, so I will drop in.

PS.. how was the condition of your 3-4 speed clutch assembly?
Mine was like new with no signs of any wear. I did replace teh clutch keys and key springs though.


Bennett

ok.,..maybe you know whats up with mine...i have to double clutch to third or sdometimes it will grind a bit. so thats syncros right? also...i cant go from 4th to 3rd. its like i hit a wall! i have to go out of 4th...and like push it down to 2nd a bit...then into 3rd. wtf is that?!:rasta:

Bennett,
I'm thinking of the whole 3-4 clutch sleeve/hub/synchro ring assembly ## 32-37. The only obvious wear is on the hub, #33 and it is quite deep on both sides of the teeth, 0.01". I need the 2 synchro rings/cones, #32 and 37 too.

Dustin,
It is the same thing mine does. Gotta double clutch it from 4 to 3 or it will grind. At least it doesn't pop out of gear.


<img src="http://members.cox.net/cglabe1/SM420/SM420hub.jpg">

I'll do some checking next mon- tues. What year is your trans? so I can match syncros to year.


Layter

bennett

Mine is a 8/61. Email me what you find out at cglabe@uci.edu.
Thanks

Originally posted by Pin Head
I'm thinking of the whole 3-4 clutch sleeve/hub/synchro ring assembly ## 32-37. The only obvious wear is on the hub, #33 and it is quite deep on both sides of the teeth, 0.01". I need the 2 synchro rings/cones, #32 and 37 too.

Help me match my parts to the number!!!

Okay, lets' try again!!

http://home.off-road.com/~md11fr8dog/Graphics/SM420GearSet.jpg

I''ll give it a go....

Top left...............38?? 3rd speed gear?

Top right............41,44...second & first /reverse

middle left........52 tranny mainshaft

middle right..... 27clutch gear input shaft

Bottom left......63 counter shaft

Bottom right....55 reverse ilder gear w/groove for shift fork

I am not 420 guru by any means. I have never seen a 420 that old... wait ,I did see one on" Antiques Roadshow"
:) The first thing I noticed is your input gear has straight cut teeth and your counter gear has all straight cut teeth. Very early 420? You have one of the earliest 420s? ..circa 47-48'?
I did not see any helical cut gears on your mainshaft, are they all straight cut?...even your 2nd and 3rd?? If so you will need to get used to the "turbine" whine if they are all straight cut gears.
My manual covers 1950s and 1960 series 1J -sm420s .
Lets see what the other say.
.
bennett

Wow, that one is really different. No wonder you are having trouble identifying the parts. It must be an early one, because all the gears are straight cut. It is probably going to be noisier than the later ones with helical gears. Since it looks so different, I am just guessing about the parts. In general, the more teeth on the main shaft gears, the lower the ratio, so they go 1, 2, 3 and 4 from back to front.
Top left: #38, third gear.
Top right: #41-45, first and second gears.
Middle left: #52, main shaft or output shaft.
Middle right: #27 input gear or clutch gear.
Bottom left: #63 counter shaft assembly
Bottom right: #55 reverse idler gear.

Originally posted by Pin Head
Wow, that one is really different. No wonder you are having trouble identifying the parts. It must be an early one, because all the gears are straight cut. It is probably going to be noisier than the later ones with helical gears. Since it looks so different, I am just guessing about the parts. In general, the more teeth on the main shaft gears, the lower the ratio, so they go 1, 2, 3 and 4 from back to front.
Top left: #38, third gear.
Top right: #41-45, first and second gears.
Middle left: #52, main shaft or output shaft.
Middle right: #27 input gear or clutch gear.
Bottom left: #63 counter shaft assembly
Bottom right: #55 reverse idler gear.

Charlie, Ken,

Those are the best fits that I could come up with. :confused: Maybe I do need that whole set up you have Ken!!:D

Originally posted by bennett
I''ll give it a go....

Top left...............38?? 3rd speed gear?

Top right............41,44...second & first /reverse

middle left........52 tranny mainshaft

middle right..... 27clutch gear input shaft

Bottom left......63 counter shaft

Bottom right....55 reverse ilder gear w/groove for shift fork

I am not 420 guru by any means. I have never seen a 420 that old... wait ,I did see one on" Antiques Roadshow"
:) The first thing I noticed is your input gear has straight cut teeth and your counter gear has all straight cut teeth. Very early 420. You have one of the earliest 420s ..circa 47-48'
I did not see any helical cut gears on your mainshaft, are they all straight cut?...even your 2nd and 3rd?? If so you will need to get used to the "turbine" whine if they are all straight cut gears.
My manual covers 1950s and 1960 series 1J -sm420s .
Lets see what the other say.
.
bennett

Here are what the six sides of the case look like!

--- even if i double it from 4th to third...it hits a wall. i have to double to 3rd from 2nd...but from 4th...i either coast to a stop...or i go down to second and dont let the clutch out then into 3rd. ya know? whatever..it crawls...maybe next winter ill rebuild it...but for now im not cryin!:rasta:

Originally posted by bennett
I am not 420 guru by any means. I have never seen a 420 that old... wait ,I did see one on" Antiques Roadshow"
:) The first thing I noticed is your input gear has straight cut teeth and your counter gear has all straight cut teeth. Very early 420. You have one of the earliest 420s ..circa 47-48'


Yea, built before magnetism was discovered.:eek: There isn't a magnet in there either!!

Originally posted by DCruiser138
--- even if i double it from 4th to third...it hits a wall. i have to double to 3rd from 2nd...but from 4th...i either coast to a stop...or i go down to second and dont let the clutch out then into 3rd. ya know? whatever..it crawls...maybe next winter ill rebuild it...but for now im not cryin!:rasta:

Just an FYI that someone sent me during my rebuild.....

[If your 420 is popping out of 2nd or third, it's not likely the syncro, although it could be shot anyway. It's usally the forks, the 3 - 4 slider, or the gear (fork worn, slider and gear have too much backside taper), or all three or any combination of all three. ]
___________________________________
I know your problem is different & your "hitting the wall" but have you checked for excessive play in your shifter/forks? I think a shifter repair kit was under $25..couldn't hurt to check.

:smokin:

Thanks guys, appreciate it. Bennett, that would be sweet if you could get me both those springs, just let me know how much. sorry about the late reply, took a 3 day trip to wash. and cali to look at schools....
DAMN cali's polluted. its nasty. :(

Matt:skull:

Got some SM420 info for you guys.


1. Freightdoggy.............sorry to give you the bad news, you do not have a sm420. You have a 1940-1947 Chev truck transmisssion. I spoke with "Brent & Greg"(owners) of Tourist Auto in SLC and his quote was......." All SM420s began production with Helical cut gears( except 1st and reverse), what you have is a 40-47 Chev Trans w/straight cut gears. part# 185":barf: :eek: I smell refund?

2. Fixerxx66.........Your syncro energizer spring problem.......
Brent said he has seen very few broken springs during the SM420 era when thetrannies were common. The springs are not available from him as a seperate item, only with the gear. You can purchase a newSecond gear with the springs at a cost of $169.60. When ever this occurred ( which was seldom) they would exchange with a used unit for much less $$$. He may have some "used" on hand but would need time to look. I assumed it would be an easy cheap fix....my bad, sorry. I would post a "sm420" part wanted in the general 4x4 forum and I'll bet you would someone with that gear aailable. Brent thought that perhaps it was improperly installed during a rebuild which could have resulted in a failure of the spring.

3. Pin Head.............

Your 3-4 th gear synrco /hub/complete/assemmbly would cost $142.49 new and would include both new matching syncros.
A used outside hub assembly would be $15.00 . They thought using used might be like throwing good $$ after bad !!Without checking , Greg thought both new or used items would be in stock.
On a side note: In years past the second gear was somewhat difficult to find. Tourist has new 2nd gears /small cone available for $169.00
Interestly enough he said that the harder part now to find is the 1st gear with the 2nd gear syncro imbedded. Tourist has been trying by hand to replace the big syncro on the back side of first gear. They mentioned it is real difficult to do...correctly! The large gear is still available new with the factory syncro for $167.74.

4. DCcruiser138......... as far as the" hitting the wall" problem during your shift from 4th down to third.... Brent thought it probably was due to bad or improper size syncros. ( I posted about this somewhere else) Two different size -thickness syncros are available for the SM 420s. He said he has both sizes new in stock. It is difficult to tell what size until a tear down. Most people just slap syncro's in during rebuilds only to find the wrong sized used. Two diiferent wider Keys/syncros in the wrong configuration will not slow down the shaft for a shift. It would be helpful to know what year the trans is for further suggestions.
....................................

Not sure if I helped all that much guys.... My contact at Tourist is not there now , I spoke with the Owners Greg and his dad Brent. Tourist has specialized in manual trannies for over fifty years. I suggest you call if you need better information. They were great to work with and helpful. Brent would be the contact man covering 420s. The prices I was quoted was without a discount which would be available to jobber/dealers.
If you want to contact them, here is the skinny.

Tourist Auto & Truck
801 364 5743
800 748 4200
801 364 5849 fax.

Hey Bennett,
Thanks a bunch! I'll give them a call. $150 isn't too much for the whole assembly NOS. I don't look forward to dropping that sucka again, but I would like to have one with good synchros.

Originally posted by bennett
Got some SM420 info for you guys.


1. Freightdoggy.............sorry to give you the bad news, you do not have a sm420. You have a 1940-1947 Chev truck transmisssion. I spoke with "Brent & Greg"(owners) of Tourist Auto in SLC and his quote was......." All SM420s began production with Helical cut gears( except 1st and reverse), what you have is a 40-47 Chev Trans w/straight cut gears. part# 185":barf: :eek: I smell refund?



Suuuuure!! You REALLY, REALLY want to sell me that 420/adaptor/3spd tc you have, don't you?? :flipoff2: I started wondering about that yesterday after leaving Charlie's place and was gonna haul my large paper weight out to the closest trannie shop to my home (its 50 miles away) when I get home. You just saved me a trip. Thanks! I will be bringing my check to CM02, unless you prefer cash or beer!! :smokin:

I wasa pretty psyched about how a 420/3spd crawls after Charlie gave me a little demo at his local proving grounds yesterday. Scary to think about those running 100-200:1 ratios!! :eek: :eek:

One thing I was disappointed in yesterday though. I was hoping Charlie would let me drive his :rainbow: diamond plate cruiser, but I didn't see it in his driveway. He must have hidden it, afraid I would be jealous and try to steal it!! :D

Back to work tonight for the next few nights. Next stop, Nolen's on Sat!!:smokin:

Keep that set up you have for me!!

Thanks

Originally posted by Pin Head
Hey Bennett,
Thanks a bunch! I'll give them a call. $150 isn't too much for the whole assembly NOS. I don't look forward to dropping that sucka again, but I would like to have one with good synchros.

Sell you mine for $125!!:smokin:

Thanks for the :beer: :beer: and Nachos last night!! Thank Pinnetta Head for the pasta!!:D