Okay, I re-set the toe finally (EXACTLY 1/8" in) and some of the death wobble went away. But the death wobble (occurs everytime at 40-44 MPH) is only a symptom of the problem. Which is simply that my caster angel is in the gutter.

Basically, I was wondering if this is a unique problem to my SAS, as most people using pre-fabbed parts from a shop (all-pro, kongs, etc.) buy the parts pre-fabbed for the same reason I did... to avoid suspension geometry problems. If I'd have known that it was gonna be all out of whack anyway, I'd have built the hanger and what-not myself. *sigh*....

Anyway, what I'm wondering is: Has anyone else experienced a similar situation after their SAS, and if so, what exactly did you do to fix it up?

I'm thinking a shorter shackle and a pair of shims should hopefully get me where I need to go.

2

3

Last one...

So what is your castor measurement?

I'll let you know tonight. I'm gonna stop on the way home and grab a magnetic angle finder. Mark (Kongs) was telling me that the steering arms should be pretty much horizontal, and I'd say my axle is slanted back about 10 degrees.

Can you find castor angle by mesuring the angle of that nice, flat steering arm? The castor angle is pretty much perpindicular to that angle, correct? In case you can't tell, I'm kinda new to the whole steering gemoetery thing. I understand the theory and all - but no real-world application. I guess that's about to change. :(

Well knowing that your springs still arent broken in yet. I would still give it some time to settle and then see where you are at. you may still need shims but, I think it would be better to wait til It has had time.

The springs setting shouldn't rotate the axle any, should they? Besides, they won't settle at all if the damn thing is too scary to drive. It's almost there. I'm not waiting anyway. I've GOT to swping that pinion up so I can put in a shaft from high angle *NOW* - already comitted the $$$ to attend an event up in KY on the 19-21st. And I AM NOT driving this thing like it is any more than absoutely nessecary.

And at any rate... a flatter spring (or one with more arch for that matter) wouldn't affect the angle the axle is sitting at - would it? It would shift up and back (or down & forward) a litlle, but I don't see any way the axle will ROTATE as the springs get slightly flatter.

I don't understand why people trarley rotate the knuckles on the Toyota housings? It'd solve so amny problems IMHO

I wouldn't think I'd need to rotate the knuckles... Since the pinion angle is shit too, correct? (See first 2 pics)

just buy a set of those damned shims and put under the spring's problem solved, yes htey're cheap, yes thay have been known to crack, just make sure you get steel ones!!!

cheap fix :D

I was just thinking that the front of the spring would flatten out a little more. Either way no it wont get the pinion where you are going to want it. Little more work but I would put in a 2" drop crossmember ontop of what you got and that should get it up to where you need it. If not gonna have to shim it.:D

Originally posted by Dr. Evil
I wouldn't think I'd need to rotate the knuckles... Since the pinion angle is shit too, correct? (See first 2 pics)
You can dial in your castor, and point the pinion up at the tcase as well. I had to do it to my 44 in order for my steering arms to clear the 44044's, plus I could set my caster right at 6*

And at any rate... a flatter spring (or one with more arch for that matter) wouldn't affect the angle the axle is sitting at - would it? It would shift up and back (or down & forward) a litlle, but I don't see any way the axle will ROTATE as the springs get slightly flatter.

if you longer shackles on the front than stock its going to through your camber off. by putting longer shackels on it your rotating the front axle down in the rear. get some steel shims for it and weld them in and you should be ok:D

I agree with everyone on the shims and such...

I do not agree that you should measure your pinion angle by your hysteer arms. You should put the mgnetic dealy on your pinion. That is the best place. The angle of your pinion and your tcase should READ the same on the angle finder. If they READ the same, they are pointing at eachother. (Hope Im saying this right.)

Also, there are 4 things you can do to change pinion angle UPWARD (like you need)...

1. rotate knuckles
2. shims
3. make longer front mounts
4. shorten shcakle

As for the springs settling, NO they will not make your pinion rotate up, however, the less lift you have (settling) the less pinion angle you have...

What kind of vibration are you getting? Do you mean while driving WITHOUT a front driveshaft? Or do you mean when you tried to slap your old driveshaft on there. At that angle with your old shaft, expect vibration. If your saying that your getting a death wobble without a front shaft on, then your problem lies NOT in the pinion angle. (You prob. know that but I was just making sure.)

It's broken beyond repair, you should let me get it out of your way! :D

hey- couple of ideas:

ya might try 1/4 toe in-

why jerk around with a protractor??
take it to an alignment shop and have it checked- it'll cost ya 30 bucks to find out exactly where your at, add the proper degree shim, your done.

you are using a steering dampner, aren' t you?
.
.
.
.
obviously not, since it's not in the pic's :D
I know it's not the proper solution, but they do help-

later

Originally posted by TyTy
You should put the mgnetic dealy on your pinion. That is the best place. The angle of your pinion and your tcase should READ the same on the angle finder. If they READ the same, they are pointing at eachother.
Um... I don't want them pointing at each other. It's going to be a CV driveline (which means pinion points @ T-Case flange).

Originally posted by TyTy
What kind of vibration are you getting? Do you mean while driving WITHOUT a front driveshaft?Sounds like someone has never experienced death wobble. Lucky you. It's caused by improper caster angle. Has nothing to do with the driveshaft, which isn't installed.


Originally posted by crawler#976
You might try 1/4 toe in
I did. That's where it was before I came out to 1/8". Much better now.

Originally posted by crawler#976
Take it to an alignment shop and have it checked- it'll cost ya 30 bucks to find out exactly where your at, add the proper degree shim, your done.I think this is the way I'll probably have to go. Maybe have Roger Brown fab me a nice steel shim I can weld to the perch.

Originally posted by crawler#976
You are using a steering damper, aren' t you? I know it's not the proper solution, but they do help.I'm not running one right now, because I want to fix the problem, not cover it up. But thanks for the suggestions, everyone.

I think I'll shorten the shackles and take it to an alignment shop. From there, I can get the right size shims or maybe cut the perches off the axle and turn it that way.

Why fuck around taking it to an alignment shop. Not to mention pinion isnt an alignment problem...

All you have to do is stick the magnetic angle finder on your pinion, then on the tcase output shaft. Read it. Then you need to make the pinion READ the same as the output on the tcase...

For example, if tcase reads 3 degrees, your pinion needs to read 3 degrees. If you pinion reads 1 degrees, then you need to get a 2 degree shim and put it in.

It dont get much more simple than that!

A steering stablizer would help a lot.

Originally posted by Dr. Evil
or maybe cut the perches off the axle and turn it that way.
You still need to rotate the knuckles if you plan to move the perches. Then you can dial in the caster you want/need. If you just move the perches you could end up with interferance with your springs/tie rod as well, since you'd effectively be turing your steering arms down and into the springs.

Originally posted by TyTy
Why fuck around taking it to an alignment shop. Not to mention pinion isnt an alignment problem...

All you have to do is stick the magnetic angle finder on your pinion, then on the tcase output shaft. Read it. Then you need to make the pinion READ the same as the output on the tcase...

For example, if tcase reads 3 degrees, your pinion needs to read 3 degrees. If you pinion reads 1 degrees, then you need to get a 2 degree shim and put it in.

It dont get much more simple than that!


are you dumb?

a stock toy has more deg's @ teh pinion that at teh t-case from teh factory, what you'r describing is if you DO NOT run a CV in your front shaft...

and pinion angle is not his problem, what your' describing and he's describing are 2 totally different thing's, he needs caster not pinion angle! the entire axle needs to be turned!


Dr Evil, shim's or cutting and turning hte perches are really your only option to get your pinion where it needs to be and get your caster right also

don't trash your shackles, find a stock set or something to lower it with

Its obvious TyTy has never had Death Wobble! :D

Fawk the pinion angle, its all about alignment, esp. castor which would be best measured at an alignment shop, or second best w/ an angle finder on the steering arm as Kong's suggested.

You're on the right track. Too much castor can cause it.
W/ my shackle hangers under the frame, I had too much castor and the dreaded death wobble. I'm using 4* shims to correct that temporarily. My problem also happened to be a camber problem as well, but that's not usually an issue w/ Toy axles unless they are bent or the knuckle bearings are toast.
As you found out, adjusting Toe doesn't really fix it.
A steering stabilizer just covers the real problem, so don't put one on until you've fixed the REAL problem.

If you think you really have as much castor as you think you do, slap in a cheap shim and see how/if things change.

Aluminum shims are OK too but keep an eye on them. That's what I'm using (for the past year, and no steering stab and no wobbles), but I don't consider them permanent and I keep the u-bolts tight. I'm moving my shackle hanger to the frame w/ shorter shackles than you're using for the permanent fix.

Originally posted by DSI
Are you dumb?
Remind me never to accuse you of "not speaking your mind." :p

Originally posted by DSI
Don't trash your shackles, find a stock set or something to lower it with What I can do is drill a hole about 1.25" higher in the shackle (red marks). This way I get to keep the beefy ones, and I can come back to where I am if I don't like how it works out.

If I switch and like how it works (probably will - since I want it low) I'll simply pull out the sawzall and grinder and trim the excess off of the shackle.

DSI...I think it is time you post some more before after shots...

I guess we are not on the same page here, but I thought that some of what you are talking about is the fact that you need to raise your pinion. Im not talking about alignment at all. I dont know much about that.

I was asking cause I was confused about the fact that he said he was getting vibrations and then there was talk of driveshafts and pinion angle. Confused me seeing as how the truck has no front driveshaft...

Slap a couple of 4 degree shims in, tweak the passenger side U-bolts to accomodate this and call it quits...

drilling holes in your shackles like that could make it worse. you will loose positive caster. TY-TY has no fawkin idea what he is talking about. :rolleyes: raising the pinion will make for more negative caster, which will make it worse.
EDIT: You need to find out what your caster angle is now so you can make an informed decision on what changes to make. Also with 35"s I'd run 1/4" of toe in. that helped mine alot. 3rd, it sounds like you are running ont he street alot, a steering stabalizer is a must.

Originally posted by zags
drilling holes in your shackles like that could make it worse. you will loose positive caster. TY-TY has no fawkin idea what he is talking about. :rolleyes: raising the pinion will make for more negative caster, which will make it worse.
EDIT: You need to find out what your caster angle is now so you can make an informed decision on what changes to make. Also with 35"s I'd run 1/4" of toe in. that helped mine alot. 3rd, it sounds like you are running ont he street alot, a steering stabalizer is a must.

I dunno... From the photo it appears he could lose a little caster... I think what's REALLY compounding the actual geometry issues is the reverse rake of the truck. I'm sighting down the lower shock mounts for a reference and the backs look a bit low... Could just be me though :rasta: ...

If you throw shims on their without rotating the knuckles back your tie rod will contact the spring b/c you have hysteer.

Originally posted by Dr. Evil

Remind me never to accuse you of "not speaking your mind." :p

What I can do is drill a hole about 1.25" higher in the shackle (red marks). This way I get to keep the beefy ones, and I can come back to where I am if I don't like how it works out.

If I switch and like how it works (probably will - since I want it low) I'll simply pull out the sawzall and grinder and trim the excess off of the shackle.

That's what OOP's ended up doing on a recommendation from Jon @ AP (try a search). He cut out the brace too.

IIRC, RogerB and I calculated that shortening the shackle an inch changes the caster about 1 degree, so a shim would make a much more direct affect on caster, but since you want to lower it some anyway, that's one place to start.

if you need a set of shackles i have the ones that came with all pros kit. i didnt use them i built my own. the ones from allpro are 7 inches long measure yours and if they are the same as mine they probably wouldnt help but if yours are longer i have them.

put a steering stabalizer on it!

ok, so what you're problem is is TOO much positive caster, right?? rotate knuckles or use a shim... the springs settling WILL help a little.. but just a little.. cause when they sag they lose arch and flatten out.. when they flatten out they kick your shackle back a bit because now measuring straight eye to eye the spring is a little longer.. kicking you're shackle back a bit would cause a little negative caster.. but i this really would be negligable.. you can always drop the front hanger, but that'll add some lift.. stabilizer would help, but it's a cover up.. man, tough decision..

Originally posted by skyjackedtoy
ok, so what you're problem is is TOO much positive caster, right??
He doesn't know what the caster actually is. there is no way to acurately measure caster unless the vehicle is leveled, i.e. an alignement rack, and decent measuring tools are used. You guys are trying to repair a problem that you dont even know exists... I'll bet he set his toe on his back on the ground with a tape measure. does he even know whrere to measure it from?
How accurate is that? A toed out front axle shakes like a big dog.
Even a stock Toyota comes wih a steering stabalizer. Negative caster is another culpret. Ever get a shopping cart with a wobble? too much negative caster. how about tire balence? wide bias ply tires on the street?

Im glad mine is a trailer queen :D

Originally posted by zags
TY-TY has no fawkin idea what he is talking about. :rolleyes: raising the pinion will make for more negative caster, which will make it worse.


Then why does my shit work? I might not know the terms yall are using but I know how to set front shit up cause I have done it, run into these problems and have overcome them.

Define caster...

Define raising pinion...

What does rotating knuckles do?
What does adding shims do?
What does building lift into front mount do?
What does shortening shackle do?

I wanna get on the same page here but calling me a dumbass isnt gonna help.:flipoff2:

Originally posted by zags



Im glad mine is a trailer queen :D

AMEN!!! :D Tow rig's my best mod to date... :D

Stock Toyota solid axle trucks have 1.5-3 degress of positive caster, AFAIK. I'm at more than 12 degrees. Shortenening the shackle sould turn it a degree, maybe two. I'm going to do that anyway and throw some longer shackles on in back (A 2" longer shackle will allow me to flip my :rainbow: tapered lift blocks around and kill my rear driveline vibration.)

I have a steering stabilizer ready to put on it, so stop telling me to get one. I want to fix the problem, not cover it up... so I'm going to wait on that until I get this fixed.

Yota san...

Where do you measure caster from. Basically what angle is it? I wanna get on the same page...

Messed around with mine for months. Balanced the tires twice.
Checked the tires one last time and it had thrown the weights. Rebalanced it and BOOM it was gone. I run a 2.5" drop front hanger which helps alot too. I 35x13.5x15" bias ply tires at 20 lbs on the street. At 30 lbs it'll bounce the sh*t out of me.... oh yeah...and no steering stabalizer!!!!

I know this isnt the right way, but if you put a angle finder on the pinion of a stock truck,then compare it to your STOCK housing's pinion angle that should tell you how far off the caster is shouldent it??(I dont know what it is but say stock is 20deg. and I'm at 25deg. I then know I'm 5deg. off).I know the pinion angle has nothing to do with the aliment but if the housings are the same its some where it measure from.
On that note any one out there with a stock solid axle truck,and an angle finder can you post what your pinion angle is on level ground(I'm going through the same problems)

Originally posted by TyTy
Where do you measure caster from. Basically what angle is it?
http://aligncraft.com/terms/terms.html#FrontCaster

Stock Toy axles are spec'd at 2.5 degrees of positive caster (knuckles tilted toward rear of vehicle)

So far, the only difference I've found between the sutff I've gotten from Kongs 4x4 and the All-Pro kit is the shackles. Both kits use a 1" drop hanger... But All-pro's shackles are 1.5" longer than the 3.5" long stock shackles, putting them at 5 inches. The lift shackles I got from Kongs are 6.25" eye-to-eye.

I did a little measuring and I should be able to re-drill the shackle I have to 5" long. We'll see where that (And lifting the rear of the truck) gets me. I also plan on removing a leaf from the All Pro springs to get the truck lower, which should help reduce bumpsteer. I'll let you all know how it works out.

Sounds like you're on the right track.

From what you've said, you know you have too much caster, so throw in some shims! As someone mentioned, they might not clear the hi-steer, but if you remove a leaf from the pack like you are saying they probably will.


TyTy, check out the link he posted about caster. There is no way to "truly" measure it yourself because you need an alignment shops setup. However, the knuckle bearing caps (the steering arms in this case) should be perpendicular to the caster angle in the vertical/front-to-back plane, so sitting an angle finder on the steering arm can give you a general idea of your caster. If anything it will at least give you a base measurement to go by to see if or how much you've changed it when you try something to modify it (shims, shorter shackles, turning knuckles, etc.).

FWIW, different springs and/or settling of springs will not significantly affect caster. What really affects it is how the spring is mounted (front hanger and shackle hanger and/or shackle length).

The only way the spring can have a noticeable impact on caster is to move the point the axle is mounted to the spring. As it moves along the (curved) arch of the spring, it rotates more and more. This shouldn't really matter unless you go nuts and move your axle WAY forward... but it does matter.

It is a caster problem - more you have too much caster. My 84 w/ swapped in rear springs has death wobble too. I redrilled the shackels and it helped a little. Next step is to add some 4 degree shims.

GFL

I have EXACTLY the same setup as dr.yotaevilsan. (Kong's/Allpro)No death wobble. hmmm.

Do I have to tell you again, your shackles are to long, they should be 4 1/2" from bolt hole to bolt hole (that is about 1 1/2" over stock) Not only will this fix your castor (it puts the axle about on stock plane) it will raise your pinion angle 6-8 degrees (fixed my d-shaft angle problem even on full droop with 9012 shocks), then put a steering stab. on it. I had the same problem 2 1/2 years ago when I did my SAS and I called Jon at AP who was about the only player in the SAS game that had any knowledge and that is what he told me to do. Guess what IT FIXED IT!!!!!!!!!!!:D

http://home.pacbell.net/tketter/caster.bmp