I'm looking into using a dry-sump setup in my next project. Does anyone have good info about using dry-sump? I'm looking for stuff like setup and such. Summit lists circle track and drag racing setups, which would be better for rockcrawling?
:beer:

Well you can figure that anything setup for doin circles will have the pickup for the oil in the right side of the pan, anything setup for going straight will have the pickup in the back of the pan. I would say the drag racing would be the best pickup location for the oil in a rock crawling application.

I personally would use a wet sump system and buy the $175 3 qt oil accumulator that Summit and Jegs sells. When the pressure drops you have 3 qts of pressurized oil on tap, when the pressure returns it repressurizes the system. Simple, small and very effective.

I agree with The Rockslut, the drag sump would be the best because most of the bad stuff for oil on a rock rig it's going to the back of the sump.

I also agree the accumulator is a much cheaper and easier way to go. You can even get pressure activated switches and valves to open as soon as the op hits zero.

Use a 1 way check valve to presurixe it with the engine turning high o/p and it should work well.

I'm pretty sure drag dry-sumps are side scavenge. The spinning crank is what throws most of the oil into the pan and of course it throws it to one side. The oil is not in the pan very long anyway. A dry sump setup would be nice but they are high $$.

when i was building my motor i wanted a dry sump but it got to out of hand money wise. i went with the moroso oil acumulator

I have been looking at the acumulator as a second option. Is a dry-sump oil pan shorter? I was thinking about being able to mount the engine lower with the same amount of clearance. I agree that the back of the pan would be best for crawling, would it be possable to move the pickup back there?

Side pickups will work fine. The only problem I can think of is the remote oil tank, it may not like steep angles. You should probably call Moroso or Milodon.

Yes the oil pan is only 2" deep. It would be very foolish to drop that kind of $$ on a dry sump.

The reason for a dry sump is to be able to sustain high RPMs without oil whip and added drag on the crank from a wet sump. If you want to run 6-8000 rpms for 2 hrs straight then a dry sump is perfect.

so is that why Harleys are dry sump then Scout?
other benefits are
put the reservoir anywhere you want
reservior as large as you want, 5 gallons would be nice heatsink
easier to keep the pump suction side in the oil like in airplane aps

agree with the insane $$$ comments but it would be cool

I know its expensive. The point of the project is to make somthing that will last me as long as possable. I dont want to do things twice and I want to use the best stuff I can even if it means having to save a little longer. Other benefits that have not be metioned are that a dry sump is more efficiant(sp) and also adds horsepower because the windage plate is full length which means crank isnt sloshing in the oil.

Originally posted by mj
so is that why Harleys are dry sump then Scout?
The same reason that Porsche puts an 12 qt dry sump on a on a 3.0L motor. Air cooled engines are hard as hell on oil:rolleyes:

Originally posted by The Rockslut
SNIP ... I personally would use a wet sump system and buy the $175 3 qt oil accumulator that Summit and Jegs sells. When the pressure drops you have 3 qts of pressurized oil on tap, when the pressure returns it repressurizes the system. Simple, small and very effective. Hey Rockslut, I have been thinking about using a "pre-oiling" system that pumps oil to the valvetrain and somewhat pressurizes the system prior to start-up. Would one of these accumulators do the job? I would want to have some kind of control over it so I can accomplish the same basic concept. Any thoughts, hints, tips, ideas:beer:


I am also looking to increase the capacity, filtration, and cooling of all of my fluids. Anybody have recommendations for deep engine and tranny pans, coolers, remote filter locators(pref. a twin filter set-up), etc ... :question:

i saw in the summit cataloge a dry sump, but i do'nt know if this may be a good solution for me.

when rockcrawling or doing competitions, i find myself many times in crazy upwards angles(sometimes 70 degrees), moving slowly or winching for 5-10 minutes.:nuke: :skull: :nuke:

i know it's VERY BAD for the engine and the oil pressure.

i once read someplace about an electric oil pump which runs the oil in such situations when the regular pump ca'nt get enough oil, but i could'nt find anything in summit or other dealers.

i just swapped in a 500hp fuel injected Chevy 454 and i would like to keep it as healthy as i can for as long as i can.

what do you think would be the best solution in this case?

first be wary of drag race stuff, a lot of it is designed for short duration operation, circle track stuff is designed to run flat out for hours and would probably be a better choice. pickup location has nothing to do with the pump it only relates to where you put the pickup lines.
I can't see the point in it from a clearance standpoint as the oilpan will have a lot more clearance than the transmission and t-case and is in an area harder to hit.
if you have the space (I do) you could try what I was thinking of, tap and thread the oil pump housing to take a flexible line of some kind that can take suction, build a flat oilpan with a windage tray full length, put a weight on the end of the oil pickup line so it can float from end to end of the oilpan. this way gravity will move your pickup to whatever point in the pan the oil is at.
how to hotrod small block chevys had a pic of something similar at one point for roadracing, had a pivot point in the middle of the oil pickup tube so it could swing side to side during corvering, we just need two more dimensions.
an electric pump will have the same problem we have now, its not a pump failure of any kind and a high volume pump moves plenty of oil, its a pickup problem. where do you get the oil supply for the electric pump?

Originally posted by mytzlflick
I can't see the point in it from a clearance standpoint as the oilpan will have a lot more clearance than the transmission and t-case and is in an area harder to hit.

The point is that with a shorter oilpan the block can be mounted lower and allow for more clearance above the axle. This can lower the COG and depending on how you set it up slightly rase the t-case (use the tranny mount as a pivot). If the resivoir is correctly designed you would have to be near vertical before you starved the pump.

BTT:D I was thinking about this today, anyone have anything to add?

One of Carroll Smith's books has some good info on pluming all sorts of stuff (dry sump, multiple radiators, dry sump fuel tank etc...). I think it was "Tune to Win". It also shows how to make the res. (they are $$$ to buy).

Busy with this at the moment. After dumping a bunch of $$$$ into a motor, I returned from a UROC event and decided that a dry sump would be good insurance. So many rollovers with the motors running.

Motor is a 383 SBC, MPFI built by ADC Racing in Ft Collins, CO. Previous dyno run was 450/475 (sea level adjusted).

I don't expect the dry sump to add power, the gains from crank windage will be lost to driving the oil pumps. I do expect some gains in C of G, the sump is a good 3 or 4 inches less but as noted the limiting factor is the tranny bellhousing (built 700R4) and the Atlas. any C of G gains may be offset by increased packaging needs - pumps, reservoir, cooler etc.

The sump is custom built ($600) with 4 pickups, two front, two rear, (two left, two right) and other pickup lines will run into the top of the valve covers. This is very similar to a setup run on an aerobatic aeroplane allowing inverted flight with full oiling. The only time this motor may encounter a hydrolock would be if it is inverted and shut down, possibly the oil will flow past the rings.

The big advantage (my perception) is using a 4 stage pump, and being able to use one of the pumps to drive the hydraulic steering. Still in R&D, pre-testing stage, no definitive answers yet.

If I was using a junkyard SBC I would consider the accumulator setup mentioned perfect. I look at the $2k dry sump as cheap insurance compared to the cost of building a new motor. But I realize that dry sumping is expensive no matter how you look at it - i guess it comes down to - "How much do you value your motor?"

Just FYI, the $2K dry sump can be broken down like this approx.
Custom Pan built to spec - $600
4 stage pump - $935
Mandrel and Pulley - $100
Dry Sump tank (some design issues still ) - $300

I have a bunch of braided hoses and AN fittings otherwise add $500.

If you want I can let you know who is building my sump and reservoir.

HTH
Grant

I always wondered why dry sumps weren't the norm in rockcrawling, at least on the high-dollar rigs.
XtremeJ, the pumps work a bit differently than you're thinking (if I read it right). A 4-stage pump doesn't operate like 4 individual pumps. 3 of those stages are for scavenging, they pull the oil from 3 different places and feed it to the tank. The fourth stage feeds off the tank and supplies the pressure. That's not to say you couldn't use only 2 scavenge stages and hook the third stage up as a pump, I don't know if there's any difference in the design of the scavenge and pressure stages that might effect that. I hope I didn't just repeat something you already know.
Here's the reason I replied to the post, an interesting solution for the tank. Why not suspend it from a gimbel mount? This way the tank can pivot and stay vertical as the truck rocks around or goes off-camber. That should prevent the pressure stage from starvation.

Originally posted by WikdWaze

Here's the reason I replied to the post, an interesting solution for the tank. Why not suspend it from a gimbel mount? This way the tank can pivot and stay vertical as the truck rocks around or goes off-camber. That should prevent the pressure stage from starvation.

How is the tank going to move with four lines attached to it?

Well, a junkyard engine is not the plan. I'll be useing a RamJet 350 or a 351W build following a magazine build up yelding 400hp at 11:1 cr on 87oct (world ind heads, and longer rod's being the main mod's):D I would rather spend the money up front to save down time later on.

Originally posted by tigger4x
Hey Rockslut, I have been thinking about using a "pre-oiling" system that pumps oil to the valvetrain and somewhat pressurizes the system prior to start-up. Would one of these accumulators do the job? I would want to have some kind of control over it so I can accomplish the same basic concept. Any thoughts, hints, tips, ideas:beer:


I am also looking to increase the capacity, filtration, and cooling of all of my fluids. Anybody have recommendations for deep engine and tranny pans, coolers, remote filter locators(pref. a twin filter set-up), etc ... :question:




I like the accumulator idea a lot. This is the write-up on Summit:

The Moroso Oil Accumulator just might save your engine from damage by giving you extra oil in reserve. Plumbed into the pressurized side of your oiling system, the Accumulator uses compressed air to force its oil reserve into your engine when the oil pressure drops below normal. When the pressure gets back to normal, that reserve oil is forced back into the Accumulator, ready for the next emergency. It can help build horsepower by allowing you to use less oil in the crankcase, reducing crank windage without the danger of engine damage due to lack of oil. You can even use the Accumulator as a manually operated pre-lubing device during startup. Available in 1.5 or 3 quart capacity versions.

Nice, it can be used as a pre-oiler.

I'm not sure how well it would work for a 22RE or other engine where the 'normal' oil pressure is pretty low at idle. How low would you set it for a 22RE?? Is anyone using one of these and how well does it work??

Originally posted by 85TrailToy



I'm not sure how well it would work for a 22RE or other engine where the 'normal' oil pressure is pretty low at idle. How low would you set it for a 22RE?? Is anyone using one of these and how well does it work??
I have a 3qt. It has a shrader valve that controls the pressure on the bladder inside. When the bladder pressure is higher than the oil pressure it pumps in it's holdings.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/uploads/moro-oil2.JPG

Originally posted by Old Scout


How is the tank going to move with four lines attached to it?

I would imagine braided stainless would allow enough movement, the tank wouldn't be swinging very far.

WikdWaze, sorry I was not too clear in my post. But we are both thinking along the same lines.

I am intending adding an extra pump to handle the hydraulics. If all goes well I would use 3 of the 4 for scavenging, 1 for pressure ,and then we are going to try adding another stage for the hydro.

If all else fails I will go the usual route for the hydro and keep the 4 stage for oiling. If everything works perfectly I could use just two stages for scavenging but I have not figured that out completely yet.

Will post as I progress.

Originally posted by camo
when i was building my motor i wanted a dry sump but it got to out of hand money wise.

:eek: I didn't think that was possible:D

I like the idea of using an accumulator on the auto tranny as well.

From what I remember looking at NASCAR dry sump engines I believe all the scavenge lines are real short hoses/fittings (couple of inches?) that meet in a custom fitting right at the pump and only one line goes to the tank. I think I have seen them where there are no hoses and the custom fitting bolts right to the output of the scavenging pump stages. I'd get one of those real big idiot lights too for the oil pressure so if you throw the pump belt you will know it instantly. Might as well throw an oberg filter in there too so you can periodically check for any metal particles indicating an engine that is about to go bad.

Does the accumulator fit in line, or does is it "T" in ?? Anyone draw a diagram? Does the oil pressure in the running engine keep the tank from draining, then when it goes past a certain pressure the oil gets drawn out? I would then guess the ball valve is for when the engine is shut down? I would like to have this in my AMC 401..
Thanks, Ricky...seeya...

You can mount it inline, you just need to put a checkvalve in place so the oil will go directly to the bearings. One other possible detriment to the dry sump is breaking a belt and being w/o oil press.

Here's an idea that may save some bucks, or maybe not. I noticed that my wifes dinky little Hyundai uses a crankshaft-mounted geroter oil pump. It might be possible to modify the housing and add a pulley to get a single-stage external pump for running the hydro. Of course, it may also be possible to stack a few of these to booty-fab an entire dry sump pump. I only mention it because I'm broke as hell and can't afford the $$ for a real dry sump, but I'm sure I could find lots of Hyundais in the junkyard (where they all belong)

Originally posted by WikdWaze
Here's an idea that may save some bucks, or maybe not. I noticed that my wifes dinky little Hyundai uses a crankshaft-mounted geroter oil pump. It might be possible to modify the housing and add a pulley to get a single-stage external pump for running the hydro. Of course, it may also be possible to stack a few of these to booty-fab an entire dry sump pump. I only mention it because I'm broke as hell and can't afford the $$ for a real dry sump, but I'm sure I could find lots of Hyundais in the junkyard (where they all belong)

But the real scavenger pumps are designed to run dry and self prime. I doubt the hyundai pump will work for scavenger dutys !:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Old Scout


But the real scavenger pumps are designed to run dry and self prime. I doubt the hyundai pump will work for scavenger dutys !:rolleyes:

The pump mounts outside of the crankcase directly on the crank snout, it also has to self-prime. I can't say 100% that it would work, and it sure isn't as glamorous as a genuine dry sump pump, but it's a possibility.

I never had a problem until I put in the D-60 front.
Now I lose oil pressure after a few minuites of dogging on it... What could the problem be ?