I'm sure this has been beaten to death but I've been thinking lately that droop doesn't mean too much. When in the rocks I think stuffing is more important than droop. All of these silly products that increase the amount of articulation like revovler shackles or buggy springs and similar setups that allow major droop really don't help that much...that is when LOCKERS are involved. That stupid bragging right of "my rig RTI's at 1000+ "is really getting annoying. Notice how there is about 1lb of force being trasfered to the ground under the drooped wheel. Well how does that add any significant amount of traction in forward or lateral directions when the going really counts!

Yeah sure there may not be as much pressure on the tire/ground, but a heavy tire drooping way down there will act as a counter weight as well which may prevent you from rolling sooner.

ANY tire contacting the ground it providing more traction than a tire in the air.... all be it not that much, but more than in the air.


Besides, the farther a tire drops, the more weight stays on it longer, more traction it can give. And like the other guy said, it can also act as a counter weight.....

Haven't you noticed that all the rock-crawlers are nice and flexy?? Ya, just a gimick. hmmm.. wonder why you don't see any stiff-ass suspentioned rigs competing.... they got lockers...:rolleyes:

oh boy, your in for it on this one newbie!! :flipoff2:

I agree 100% flex is important. But exagerated droop is overrated. And I'm just saying that the stuffed wheel in maximum articulation is the wheel that counts, not the one that is almost dangling almost in the air.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I agree
how is a tire that is dangling on the end of a goofy leaf adding counterweight more then one firmly attached? think for a sec then reply
so all the winning rock racers run drop away leaves or revolvers? post a link to them

anything a drooped tire adds as traction it takes from the one firmly planted. you have your choice of maximizing the one that is working or taking from it to the one that is doing FA

Think about your big heavy budy hanging on to the back to keep you from rolling over. The lower he can keep the CG the better. Just call your buddy Droopy Axle:flipoff2:

I think the Uptravel is the one that is overrated. I want droop to keep contact. Uptravel is not as important to me, just give me good droop.

Originally posted by wngrog
I think the Uptravel is the one that is overrated. I want droop to keep contact. Uptravel is not as important to me, just give me good droop.


You Rebel! :flipoff2:

i set up my rear coilover 4 link to have 50 % droop and 50 % compression.


my front is leaf spung and probelly set at around 60 droop and 40 compression

they are booth important and having good balance is the key to a rig that works well in the rocks.

on that note gimmicks like buggy leafs and revolvers usually induce things like wheel hope or uncontrolled axle movement and should be avoided by people who use there rigs on the trail. they are for ramp champs

the wheel on the ground provides a little traction but more than that it stablaizes your truck. think about when you are climbing on rocks sometimes you hand is merely there to prevent you from falling over, not make you go forward any more.

example.

the other night we were ramping some rigs over at goat boys house.

goat boys jeep ramped farther (distance) than a toy truck because it kept all wheels in contact with the ground. the toy didn't and damn near rolled over.

therefore flex is very important for stability, not just going forward

Like Camo said, I think equalized flex is the key although I've got a new view on droop gimmicks. I've been running a 16" travel coilover front with leafsprings in the rear. The truck did good but was not as stable as I wanted. For the Moab trip I needed some extra flex in the rear. I planned on doing 1/4 elip or coilover, but didn't have time. I made some scissor shackles just like Hyper Shackles and I'm amazed. Before, I was on the band wagon that any uncontrolled droop like this or drop arms or revolvers was bad. What it did was to allow my rig to flex evenly and let the front and back work together. The hyper shackles really compliment the rest of the suspension and theres no way I'm gonna do a 1/4 elip or coilover now.
BUT, this is on a rig that needed rear flex to match the front. I still don't like the idea of just adding lots of droop to the rear end. Like I said equalized flex is key.
Oh, and I've got zero wheel hop or axle rap. Maybe I've just got good rear springs

Originally posted by camo


on that note gimmicks like buggy leafs and revolvers usually induce things like wheel hope or uncontrolled axle movement and should be avoided by people who use there rigs on the trail. they are for ramp champs

LOL i agree!

mine is set up for rear 60 up 40 down, (messed up my shock mounting, the front 40 up and about 60 down, works really good, but my front out flexs my rear, and i need to fix that

If you want crazy droop and max traction, coil overs are the only way to go

In competition rigs I gotta agree that balance is the key, you need a combination, and it needs to be able to work at both ends, it all depends on what *you* want *your* rig to do,... oh and also how much money you have to do it with, I have revolvers in the rear on my ride, and they do what *I* want them to do, which is keep the friggin rearend on the ground, if I had time/money/equipment/more knowledge, I would build a coilover multiple link crazy ass I cant drive it down the road truck, but I am poor, drive it daily, and live in kansas :flipoff2: I like my revolvers, and I have never been on a ramp

buggy-leaves and revolvers are just as useful on the trail as any other method. Granted, you really need the ability to stuff a tire into the fender well as well. The key is to be able to twist the axle as much as possible without lowering the pinion any more than needed. Just remember to go ahead and chop out those fenderwells and loose the bumpstops when you add your droop-helpers, what ever they may be.

"Just remember to go ahead and chop out those fenderwells and loose the bumpstops when you add your droop-helpers, what ever they may be"

wouldnt that be for compression helpers?:flipoff2:

In most cases of absolutely pure droop (like on a coiler when the coil detaches from its mounts there is quite a lot of weight on the drooping tyre. This is because the weight is transfered to the axle by the compressed spring and the compressed spring is always inboard from the end of the axle. On most rigs with all the weight on one spring you will get about 70% - 80% of the weight on the stuffed wheel and the rest 20% - 30% on the drooping wheel. So you do get a lot of weight on the drooped wheel.

In actual fact even if the spring dosent go into droop most of the weight on the extended tyre will still come from the compressed spring (depending on spring rates and amount of articulation).

Put a hilift jack under the sill of a rig with heeps of droop and jack it up and notice the extra weight that the jack supports as you finally lift the drooping tyre off the ground.

If you still dont believe me then put your foot under if when you let the rig back down. And then tell me how much weight is on it.:flipoff2:

Sam

My opinion(take it for what you will) is that while flex definately rules in the rocks,straight vertical droop of more than your tire's radius becomes too much, and can contribute to breakage, especially around undercuts.

My opinion(take it for what you will) is that while flex definately rules in the rocks,straight vertical droop of more than your tire's radius becomes too much, and can contribute to breakage, especially around undercuts.

I set my truck up for mostly droop, I have maybe 5 inches uptravel and around 12 down, I can't understand your thought that more uptravel makes traction? there is a finite amount of weight on an axle, it dosn't change just gets transferred from wheel to wheel. the ultimate suspension would be one that maintains the same amount of weight on either tire no matter the travel.
I do agree though that an rti ramp is only usefull for telling you if everything clears at max flex.

Originally posted by Strange Rover
In most cases of absolutely pure droop (like on a coiler when the coil detaches from its mounts there is quite a lot of weight on the drooping tyre. This is because the weight is transfered to the axle by the compressed spring and the compressed spring is always inboard from the end of the axle. On most rigs with all the weight on one spring you will get about 70% - 80% of the weight on the stuffed wheel and the rest 20% - 30% on the drooping wheel. So you do get a lot of weight on the drooped wheel.

In actual fact even if the spring dosent go into droop most of the weight on the extended tyre will still come from the compressed spring (depending on spring rates and amount of articulation).

Put a hilift jack under the sill of a rig with heeps of droop and jack it up and notice the extra weight that the jack supports as you finally lift the drooping tyre off the ground.

If you still dont believe me then put your foot under if when you let the rig back down. And then tell me how much weight is on it.:flipoff2:

Sam

This is true. The compressed side forces the drooped side into the ground. With my bronco flexed to the max, I can't lift the drooped tire with my hands. It's planted solid.

If I had a choice between compression and droop, I would choose compression. That's what keeps you level. But droop definately helps. I didn't understand this until I made my bronco flex. It's 100% more stable, and I haven't even worked on the rear yet.

Originally posted by mytzlflick
the ultimate suspension would be one that maintains the same amount of weight on either tire no matter the travel.


This would be true if you ran open diffs, but with a locker, I think it's some times better to have weight transfer to one tire.

My .02 worth is that a balanced suspension is going o work alot better than a suspension that is biased in one particular way. If you have the rear of your rig flexing all over the place and front doing nothing you ae going to get into some pretty strange angles so to if you have oodles of droop and not much compression. it all comes back to balance. i have seen rigs @ Moab a couple of years ago in the hot tubs that were killer on the ramp get into all sorts of problems trying to get out because they were flexing like crazy but not putting down enough traction whereas a rig with a more balanced setup got out alright with a wheel lift mind you.

Originally posted by ppillard
Just remember to go ahead and chop out those fenderwells and loose the bumpstops when you add your droop-helpers, what ever they may be.

Err...why would you "loose" the bumpstops ? Bumpstops are your friends, and for good reason, they keep the suspension from exceeding it's compression travel (bending shock rods), and/or to keep a little clearance between parts that shouldn't be hitting each other.
It would make a better setup if you were to adjust the bumpstops to maximize compression without taking any chances of bottoming hard and breaking something. Any rig that is set-up for max travel, and serious use, will need some bumpstops, otherwise you are just wasting shock travel.

Originally posted by dirtrod
Err...why would you "loose" the bumpstops ?

Sorry, poor spelling and different ideas. I prefer to maximize my tire travel in both directions. I chop out my fenders, reposition my shocks to allow for lots of up and down travel. My rig is really light so I can get away with this sillyness by inboarding stiffer shocks. I do all this to allow my axle the most possible twist while keeping the pinion tucked in as close to my rig as possible. This alliviates stress on the dshaft, and keeps my COG as low as possible, resisting the rigs tendancy to roll.

So when I'm done, there's nothin' in the way of the tire and it has plenty of room to stuff itself into the fender.

This would be true if you ran open diffs, but with a locker, I think it's some times better to have weight transfer to one tire.

why??
it may be better in some cases and I suppose if you knew it was going to happen you would approach an obstacle to put the loaded tire on the tractionable part but if both tires have equal weight on them even if one is on mud and one on rock the locker will push you over.
I figure droop is good, even if the tire has only one lb sitting on it that is still an infinite amount more traction than it gets up in the air.

Originally posted by eastcoasthop
I agree 100% flex is important. But exagerated droop is overrated. And I'm just saying that the stuffed wheel in maximum articulation is the wheel that counts, not the one that is almost dangling almost in the air.

Think of it this way newbie:flipoff2: How can one tire stuff hard with the other drooping? Ahhhhhhh

And dont say "IFS":barf:

ive always felt that a 50/50 drrop compression set up works best.... you can keep a lower cog, and it just feels good :D with that said, i know my rear needs more droop to even it all out