Been doing a lot of thinking lately about the trail scout. Right now its sits on 4 inch leaf spring lift and 32x9.5x15 tires. It has a very modified body due to iowa rust. Wheels good the way it is set up for the wheeling we do.

But here's what I keep thinking about....spring over. I have read numerous post and it seems like a lot of work. I have weighed the pros and cons in my head continuiously. But now that I have been working on the toyota and it will be a stand by trail rig, I'm thinking of doing it. I could still make the trail rides.

I might have a set of 3:73 axles lined up and a wide ratio four speed to replace the close ratio. This set up is more than enough for what we do. We are unfortunate and do not have the rocks you guys do, but we have some good wheeling.

Basically my question is, how many have any regrets of their springovers? to high center of gravity?axle wrap? driveshaft bind?

another option for me would be to cut the fender wells to make room for the bigger tires.

Wheels good the way it is set up for the wheeling we do.

Either wheel harder shit until it wont go where you want it to , or leave it alone.

If it is working don't fawk with it.

Either wheel harder shit until it wont go where you want it to , or leave it alone.

If it is working don't fawk with it.

Total agreement here!

thats the part thats swaying me towards the spring over:flipoff2:

what's so hard about it, weld on new perches and put the springs on top. In the front ya gotta do something with the steering but hopefully that includes hi-steer which pretty much takes care of it.

what's so hard about it, weld on new perches and put the springs on top. In the front ya gotta do something with the steering but hopefully that includes hi-steer which pretty much takes care of it.

If I do it I'm going to do it right, cut and turn, new driveshafts and a stabilizer for axle wrap. I don't want to run anything cobbled. I've read thru about 5 different "how to's" and everybody has a different way to go at it. I know some of it will be trial and error. Making the mount for the front passenger side with the original 44 might be a little tough with the pumpking location, but I love to fabricate. I know of a 71 scout sitting for parts, the springs in that should be nice and flexible. what would be great right now is someone with about 10-15 links to scout spring overs that I could sit and read thru all weekend. I really enjoyed reading thru the faq in this section.
"MY BRAIN IS A SPONGE.....NEED MORE INFO":D

Making the mount for the front passenger side with the original 44 might be a little tough with the pumpking location, but I love to fabricate.


Bart,

It's not hard at all. If you can rebuild a motor and build that back half of the trail Scout, you can easily do a SOA on stock springs.

-Gary

If I do it I'm going to do it right, cut and turn, new driveshafts and a stabilizer for axle wrap. I don't want to run anything cobbled. I've read thru about 5 different "how to's" and everybody has a different way to go at it. I know some of it will be trial and error. Making the mount for the front passenger side with the original 44 might be a little tough with the pumpking location, but I love to fabricate. I know of a 71 scout sitting for parts, the springs in that should be nice and flexible. what would be great right now is someone with about 10-15 links to scout spring overs that I could sit and read thru all weekend. I really enjoyed reading thru the faq in this section.
"MY BRAIN IS A SPONGE.....NEED MORE INFO":D

I dont think a 71 will give you any pats you need for this. If you want to do it right, buy a chev front end first. That way you have the flat tops you'll need for later.

Instead of thinking of it as a lift, think of it as 'upgrades'. Take all the things you consider weak parts of your suspension and improve them. if your gonna be in there, might as well. If you dont have the money, then wheel it as is since it works so well:rolleyes: ,and save up till you do.

BTW...3.73's arent deep enough IMO

I dont think a 71 will give you any pats you need for this. If you want to do it right, buy a chev front end first. That way you have the flat tops you'll need for later.

Instead of thinking of it as a lift, think of it as 'upgrades'. Take all the things you consider weak parts of your suspension and improve them. if your gonna be in there, might as well. If you dont have the money, then wheel it as is since it works so well:rolleyes: ,and save up till you do.

BTW...3.73's arent deep enough IMO

I couldn't agree more. The Chev front is without a doubt the way to go. I narrowed mine to stock Scout II width and used Ford F-150 outters to match the 44 rear. I now am putting in a FF60 rear that is being narrowed to match the 44 front converted to 8 lug. Just go with the Chev front, don't even waste your time trying to cobble up a mount on top of the stock Scout front.
As far as regrets, I have none what so ever. I would do it again in a second. I guess after doing it once, I can't imagine why someone wouldn't do it ( unless they wanted to just run 32's or something like that). Go for it, you won't be sorry.

I wouldn't do it because of axle wrap, wheel up travel, having a high cg, and it is a pain in the ass, plus i'm not a big fan of high steer arms. but thats just me what do I know

I wouldn't do it because of axle wrap, wheel up travel, having a high cg, and it is a pain in the ass, plus i'm not a big fan of high steer arms. but thats just me what do I know

is that what happened on your scout?:rolleyes:


Your on the right track. Keep searching and looking. Make notes that you can keep with you while you do it. Print pictures for referance. When its done you'll have a great sence of satisfaction from doing your own lift from scratch.

Why don't you sell your lift springs and go with stockers or cobble up some junkers with less arch. A search will provide a multide of different springs guys here have used sucessfully.

you don't have to cut and turn if you don't rotate your axle, run a CV and keep the axle pointed where it should be and you will be fine..

do it, do it, do it... mine is GREAT, it is not hard at all, replace perches, cut and rotate the front axle. i havent had any problems with spring wrap... the body lean is noticable, but put some rancho adjustable shocks and i was good to go... now i m able to run 35's with little problem, just had to trim some finders:flipoff2: look at some pics on this board...

Do you know what the nice thing about SOAs are? The voodoo around them.

If people knew how easy it is to SOA a rig, then there'd me many MANY More of them. Seriously. The hardest part is turning the knuckles and all the grinding. It takes me a bit of time to finally decide to do it, but when I do ~ finally do it ~ it takes no more than 2 hours to totally prep the axle for changing the caster and perches.

I'm sure that if I were to come out there and *help* ya, we could SOA your stuff in less than a weekend. The big thing about SOAs is the additional parts price. One guy said you just need perches and steering. That's a nice thought, and what created the 'take what you think it'll cost and times it by 2+" mentality.

You need:
Perches
Brake Lines
Bushings
Driveshafts (and possibly yokes)
shackles (not needed, but nice)
shocks
u-bolts
steering (Z-drag or HySteer).
about four 4.5" grinding wheels
two cut-off wheels
3 sand papper discs (24-60 grit)
Paint
tools (hand tools, brake line wrenches, welder ~ and a plasma is nice)

Everything else is secondary, i.e.
Reverse shackle kit
Long Travel shock mounts
CV shafts
D&C stickers (:grinpimp: )

If you plan on wheeling like Mech, then get a rear traction bar. as well.

But the actual SOA is just a matter of doing it. Most problems have to do with fatigue and the lack of preperation. Much of which is caused by people having problems with their wrists. While grinding, they aren't used to the vibrations and their wrists start tingling, and they take a brake. Since they aren't acustom to the stuff, they usually don't 'git-r-dun' and make very slow progress. When I sit and start grinding, I get in there and don't stop till the axle is done. Then I stop, drink water, and start on the next. I've done 6 axles in a weekend. That was hell and I used a face mask to protect my lungs from the dust (good thing too).

I say go with it. Prep yourself for a hellacious job, and then go at it with the 'do or die' mentality. Get the rear axle set first, since its easy and it'll take about 2-3 hours to completely finish it ~ then step back, take a look, say to yourself 'that wasn't that hard' and move to the front axle. Grind it first ~ get the dirty part over with. Then finish it off like the rear (setting up the axle's pinion angle and getting it hung under the springs). Then turn the knuckles, weld them, and let them cool for a acouple hours. Then reassemble your knuckles/hubs/brakes and attache the steering. I do the shocks last.

Anyway, I've seen customer do it the hard way, and some do it the easy way. I hope you choose the latter if you do it at all.

...Wheels good the way it is set up for the wheeling we do.....spring over.....seems like a lot of work. I have weighed the pros and cons in my head continuiously......set of 3:73 axles.....is more than enough for what we do....Basically my question is, how many have any regrets of their springovers? to high center of gravity?axle wrap? driveshaft bind?

:shaking:It sounds to me like you don't really *need* a spring over at all, and that you probably wouldn't be happy with one. When I sprang-over all my Scouts, I don't recall asking anybody else whether it was a good idea or not. By that point, I flat out KNEW I needed to do it, there was no weighing pros and cons. My (and my brothers) Scouts would not take us where we wanted to drive anymore until we went spring over. Did it increase axle wrap? OF COURSE. So what, there are ways to deal with that. SOA IS WORTH IT. Did it make it easier to tip over? OF COURSE. So build yourself a roll cage and figure out how to drive using your brain (trust me, I know all about needing a rollcage). Driveshaft bind? Come on now, this has been solved too, don't get your panties bunched up about it, it is hardly a reason to stop anybody.

I guess my point is that if you really have to ask somebody else whether you should do a spring over and about the pros/cons, then maybe you don't need one at all. I wheeled spring under for years, then lifted with add-a-leaves, mild body lift, shackles and little taller tires, etc... always outgrew the vehicles' abilities before increasing. That's how I learned how to drive. If you haven't been DENIED at some obstacle you desire to conquer, then why mess with it? What you have already is working, and is probably at least reliable, right? :cool2:

I'm amazed at the nature of the response you've already received from others here. I guess it's welcome to the kinder, gentler pirate4x4 for 2006! Have a nice day. :flipoff2:

I use a portaband to chop off all the perches etc and get it close, then a flap disk to really clean it up, they don't cause the same "vibrations."

Snoopy, another voodoo mystery is how much caster should you really run? I think I put 7 degrees on my last one, tracked well but I think it is why my tires wore out in like 3k miles. Anyway - what's the rule there?

On the one before that I never turned the knuckles and just make the caster what it was before the SOA and ran a CV, and it drove fine as well.

:shaking:It sounds to me like you don't really *need* a spring over at all, and that you probably wouldn't be happy with one. When I sprang-over all my Scouts, I don't recall asking anybody else whether it was a good idea or not. By that point, I flat out KNEW I needed to do it, there was no weighing pros and cons. My (and my brothers) Scouts would not take us where we wanted to drive anymore until we went spring over. Did it increase axle wrap? OF COURSE. So what, there are ways to deal with that. SOA IS WORTH IT. Did it make it easier to tip over? OF COURSE. So build yourself a roll cage and figure out how to drive using your brain (trust me, I know all about needing a rollcage). Driveshaft bind? Come on now, this has been solved too, don't get your panties bunched up about it, it is hardly a reason to stop anybody.

I guess my point is that if you really have to ask somebody else whether you should do a spring over and about the pros/cons, then maybe you don't need one at all. I wheeled spring under for years, then lifted with add-a-leaves, mild body lift, shackles and little taller tires, etc... always outgrew the vehicles' abilities before increasing. That's how I learned how to drive. If you haven't been DENIED at some obstacle you desire to conquer, then why mess with it? What you have already is working, and is probably at least reliable, right? :cool2:

I'm amazed at the nature of the response you've already received from others here. I guess it's welcome to the kinder, gentler pirate4x4 for 2006! Have a nice day. :flipoff2:

Wow, did I catch you in a bad mood or did someone piss in your cheerios?

I know this is an extreme rock crawling site, I know your all hardcore. and beliveve me, if we had rocks I would be there too.

I only ask to get the good and the bad of it. Better than doing it and hating the results and having to put it back the way it was. Opinions, that's what I was looking for. And I repect yours too.

Yes I have a roll cage, a very good one I built myself. Seems after you roll twice, once a very bad one. You build a good cage, and I did. I do use my brain when I wheel. And I said it does "good" not great. I don't wear panties either bud, and if I have to explain that one.....well,

Not trying to piss you off with this reply. Just answering some of your questions. I was looking for opinions and got them. Thanks for the support and answers. Just trying to get an idea of what I'm getting myself into before I dive in...what any smart mechanic would do. I do like what you said about an obstackle and being denied....been there and went around.

To be honest with ya, when I first read your response I thought, "whats up this guys ass, it's not like I'm asking him to spring over my scout" but then I remembered this is pirate....:flipoff2:

Between 3 and 6 degrees of caster. I run 5.5 on most of my rigs. Tires bigger than 35's I put 6. Never over 6.

He is right.this is a very noob question.

Don't get butt hurt cuz he called you out.his post brings up a few good points you need to ask yourself.

not butt hurt at all, and I did say I repected his opinion as well. I guess I am a noob to spring overs. Never done one.

I agree, he has a lot of good points. It takes some getting use to pirate. I read once in chit chat some one said "just think of pirate as a biker bar" I got a chuckle out of that. If 75 percent of the people in here made the same comments they do in here in a biker bar, they would be picking thier teeth up off the floor-->not directed at you , bindernut.

Just at that point where I can't decide if I want to do the spring over or not. I probably will, as I'm a glutton for punishment. But not until I read every bit of info on it I can.

I agree with Snoopy 100 percent. Preperation and staying at it till its done is key.

And thanks to all that replied, positive or negative.

...On the one before that I never turned the knuckles and just make the caster what it was before the SOA and ran a CV, and it drove fine as well.
Wow.... I would think that would vibrate horribly if you were to every run with the front end engage at street/highway speeds. At trail speeds, it'd be fine and hardly noticable.

EDIT: I have the opposite of that.... pinion/driveline set for CV but just using a standard u-joint. It is a "trail-only" d-shaft and does not see any use at street/highway speeds.

Wow, did I catch you in a bad mood or did someone piss in your cheerios?

Neither. This is pirate4x4. :flipoff2:


Not trying to piss you off with this reply. Just answering some of your questions. I was looking for opinions and got them. Thanks for the support and answers. Just trying to get an idea of what I'm getting myself into before I dive in...what any smart mechanic would do. I do like what you said about an obstackle and being denied....been there and went around.

No problem, nobody is pissed off. Just trying to separate the wheat from the tares here. From what you wrote above, it sounds like something inside you already knows you ought to be spring over. If you've been denied and had to take the pussy route around the edge, then you already know you need to take things to the next level, right? I'm just trying to point out a few things for you that should make this fact more clear to the other part of you that still wants to ask your mommie for permission to go SOA. :flipoff2:


To be honest with ya, when I first read your response I thought, "whats up this guys ass, it's not like I'm asking him to spring over my scout" but then I remembered this is pirate....:flipoff2:

hehe :D :beer:

Wow.... I would think that would vibrate horribly if you were to every run with the front end engage at street/highway speeds. At trail speeds, it'd be fine and hardly noticable.

EDIT: I have the opposite of that.... pinion/driveline set for CV but just using a standard u-joint. It is a "trail-only" d-shaft and does not see any use at street/highway speeds.


It probably would have, but I never ran in 4wd on the road at all really - and definately not at hi-speed. I did drive it (53 M38A1) from colorado to california though

is that what happened on your scout?:rolleyes:

nope, i decided to stay spring under and keep it simple, with 4" of SUA lift it clears 35's fine with some fender trimming. I didn't want to have to deal with all that extra stuff in the first place to have a result that, for my use and in my opinion, doesn't work the way i want it to. I do like the stance of your scout though and think it very well done. I'm not trying to get into a pissing match like the FS/RS deal, i'm just saying this is the way i see it, not that my way is the definitive way. but when the shit is already bolted on the dude's scout that makes changing things an unwaranted PITA. whatever though.

Do you know what the nice thing about SOAs are? The voodoo around them.

But the actual SOA is just a matter of doing it. Most problems have to do with fatigue and the lack of preperation. Much of which is caused by people having problems with their wrists. While grinding, they aren't used to the vibrations and their wrists start tingling, and they take a brake. Since they aren't acustom to the stuff, they usually don't 'git-r-dun' and make very slow progress. When I sit and start grinding, I get in there and don't stop till the axle is done. Then I stop, drink water, and start on the next. I've done 6 axles in a weekend. That was hell and I used a face mask to protect my lungs from the dust (good thing too).

Riding dirt bikes and mountain bikes has help keep my wrists in shape for long grinding jobs:D
Snoopy have you ever tried using a plasma cutter??? less dust

nope, i decided to stay spring under and keep it simple, with 4" of SUA lift it clears 35's fine with some fender trimming. I didn't want to have to deal with all that extra stuff in the first place to have a result that, for my use and in my opinion, doesn't work the way i want it to. I do like the stance of your scout though and think it very well done. I'm not trying to get into a pissing match like the FS/RS deal, i'm just saying this is the way i see it, not that my way is the definitive way. but when the shit is already bolted on the dude's scout that makes changing things an unwaranted PITA. whatever though.


No piss needed. I was under the impression from other posts that you didnt, or never had a scout. How much fender did you cut? My good friend has 4 inch and he stayed spring under. After multiple trips on the Con and PNW he still gets rubbing with 32's .

Bindernut,

Just got off work, 7am. I had to deal with the guy on first that just loves to argue about anything. I was just trying to pass on info and he argues. It got to the point to where I told him, I dont give a shit what you do, its 7 and I'm leaving, I'm just passing the info on. and walked out pissed.

Then I come home quick to get ready for job number 2 and read your reply.

I owe ya a cold one, bud. You cheered me up with your comments.

Your right, I know I want the SOA. Just gotta kick myself in the ass to do it.
And that is the worse feeling in the world, when you try to make an obstackle and cant and have to go around. Let me ask you this. On yours, did you fab the scout axles or go with a donor axle?

Bindernut,

Just got off work, 7am. I had to deal with the guy on first that just loves to argue about anything. I was just trying to pass on info and he argues. It got to the point to where I told him, I dont give a shit what you do, its 7 and I'm leaving, I'm just passing the info on. and walked out pissed.

Then I come home quick to get ready for job number 2 and read your reply.

I owe ya a cold one, bud. You cheered me up with your comments.

Your right, I know I want the SOA. Just gotta kick myself in the ass to do it.
And that is the worse feeling in the world, when you try to make an obstackle and cant and have to go around. Let me ask you this. On yours, did you fab the scout axles or go with a donor axle?

JUST DO IT!!!!!!!!! Take a day off, throw it up on the jack stands and get er done. Yes it will take more than a day, but if you are anything like me, getting started is the worst part. Like someone said earlier, do the rear first, it's the easiest. When you get it done you it will be so cool that doing the front will be alot easier.
I know the above question wasn't addressed to me, but I cut down a Chev 3\4 ton front to use Scout II inners and used Ford F-150 outters to match the 5 on 5 1\2 stock Scout rear. I am now replacing the rear 44 with a FF60 and the front is converted to 8 lug, but that's another story.
Go for it, you won't be sorry.

Bindernut,

Just got off work, 7am. I had to deal with the guy on first that just loves to argue about anything. I was just trying to pass on info and he argues. It got to the point to where I told him, I dont give a shit what you do, its 7 and I'm leaving, I'm just passing the info on. and walked out pissed.

Then I come home quick to get ready for job number 2 and read your reply.

I owe ya a cold one, bud. You cheered me up with your comments.

Your right, I know I want the SOA. Just gotta kick myself in the ass to do it.
And that is the worse feeling in the world, when you try to make an obstackle and cant and have to go around. Let me ask you this. On yours, did you fab the scout axles or go with a donor axle?

No sweat, we all need a kick in the pants sometimes. :D

I have done 4 spring overs using stock D44 axles, 1 spring over using stock D30 front, and 2 80/800 spring over on stock D27front. I've also done 1 full width spring over (Chevy axles) and been involved in a second full width spring over (IH axles).

The nice thing about the Chevy (or whatever) axle housing swap is the perch is already there. But, the nice thing about using a Scout housing is that since you have to grind it down and put on a new perch and you're cutting the welds to turn the steering yokes, you can set the perch angle, pinion angle, and caster to any combination that you could want, whatever that particular truck/spring combination needs to be exactly right, and it's easy to do. What are you going to do if the stock perch (in the housing, front end) doesn't put the pinion at the right angle when the truck is sitting on it? Use caster shims? Grind it to a different angle??? How will the u-bolts (or worse, studs) work with the spring plate when they aren't perpendicular to it now? This isn't insurmountable, it is just something to think about a little bit ahead of time...

I'm about to switch up the setup on my '73 again - I have 8-lug D44 outers to put on the Scout housing and a narrow (close enough) D60 rear to go in back. I am running a 5-lug D60 that I built myself right now (got tired of trashing D44 parts with the 38's) but will swap the full floater in to go a bit wider. Keeping the Scout housing in front because it already has the gearing and a powr-lok with the aggressive clutch kit, working well enough for now.

I wandered off there...sorry. Got any other brain busters for me? :grinpimp: :p