I know this is frowned upon, But I need to know if my idea will work.

http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,34651.0.html

I'm machinist by trade, so I can make it.

where does the reduction case mount to?

there is no case.

It is a two half shaft, with floating idler gears inside.

Think of it as a planetary gear set, with flanges attached to it.

I like that idea, I do believe that someone made a simular one years ago. I think that it had some sort of planatary gear setup. it did replace the intermeidate shaft. Try it and keep us posted!

Young.

I'm very familiar with wire EDM (was an AE for Charmilles for many years). Just a very expensive process for this type of part.

Try to engineer/design it so you can "lock" it to go back to 1:1 ratio! You'd have the best of both worlds! Even some sort of pin to slide thru the entire assembly would work, lining it um might be a bitch.

I see no reason why it wouldn't work. But try to find the necessary parts before you go and re-invent the wheel.

What a cool, bolt-in solution for instant 2:1 gearing.

my brain is having trouble with the idea that it won't have a crossmember. Post up your Paint-CAD drawing on here so we can look at it here too.

Now that I think about it, it reminds me of what goes in an automatic - sometimes the both the sun and planets spin. But they have good bearings and are bathed in lube. I see what you mean about calling it a slip yoke - if a slipyoke can hold it's self up, so will this. However, there will be a lot more moving parts and wear. Post more paint-cad, show more detail :D

http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12156/planetary.bmp
It will be filled with oil.

there will be a seal where the sun gear/input shaft goes into the big gear/output. I will put a fill plug where I drew a grease fitting on my original drawing

Tim Hardy apparently ran something like that years ago. A reduction box from a forklift I think.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119082&highlight=hardy+forklift

I've been a bit out of the suzuki loop but I believe Trail Tough also ran one of these, you crawled under and bolted it in place of the intermediate shaft once you got to the trail.

Never took off from what I know of it.

The idler gear carrier has to be held still for this to work. With like you have, the idler gears will just spin around inside the ring gear.

In planetarys, you have to hold one componet still, the sun, ring, or planetary carrier. You get a different ratio depending on which you hold still.

The idler gear carrier has to be held still for this to work.

No it doesnt.
Hope you arent studying to be a mechanical engineer at texas.:flipoff2:

look at the pic in the link about hardy.

It will work but as I said before you could for $10 bucks get some parts off and auto and prove the theory before you spend any time on it. it seams there are parts availible to do just what you are thinking.

I can fly it in a few hours if I can play on that machine.

Wayne

Ok. As I'm trying to wrap my head around this my son and I drew this up on solidworks and it looks like if the output side is held with some resistance the input shaft and gears will just spin.

Where is the mechanical magic that makes the out put turn?:confused:

In theory if this is going to work you should be able to hold the output still and the input would not turn.

I'd love to see you prove me wrong, but I think you're building the equivalent of an open differential with one tire in the air.

new problem.
use your mouse and follow the trasition of power around the oarnge gear int the red gear, and into the blue gear.

It seems that the blue gear will spin the oppisite direction of the orange one!
:eek: :mad3: :(

http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12156/gears-planet2.gif

It's pretty simple really. Half the answer is that the planetaries do need to be captive for power transfer to occur. The question is captive in relation to what? If the unit is to be a self supporting shaft with no outside capturing mechanism then the planetaries can only be pinned to the ring gear. Yes the planetaries will spin in the opposite direction to the sun gear, turning the ring gear with it (reverse of the sun gear). However, the planetaries also impart a counterspinning motion to the ring gear because they are pinned to the ring gear. In this configuration, a sun gear that has half as many teeth as the ring gear will yield a 2:1 reduction. The number of teeth of the planetaries is of no consequence as they merely transfer the two rotational components to the ring gear.

I know some of you are not convinced so let's analyse but rather than do the algebra that many of you may not understand, I will just use real numbers.

We establish that the planetaries are pinned to the ring gear (because we built it that way) which essentially means the planetary carrier is in phase with the ring gear thus it imparts no overdriving nor underdriving component to the ring gear= they turn together. That's easy right? So if we turn the sun gear clockwise 2 turns, the ring gear will turn clockwise by as many turns in relation to the vehicle because the planetary gears act as a direct mechanical connection between the two. That is one of the two rotational components.


The second component arises from the fact that the planetaries are free to rotate about their axis so when I turned the sun gear two turns clockwise, they impart a counterclockwise rotation to the ring gear relative to the vehicle. How much depends on the ratio of the sun and ring gears. If I use a 2:1 ratio, (ring gear has twice as many teeth as sun gear) this means that it only turns the ring gear by half as many turns= ring gear only turned once in the counterclockwise direction.

Simply add the two components. The sun gear was turned twice clockwise. The ring gear was turned twice clockwise and once counterclockwise during this time. The net result is the ring gear turned once clockwise. Two turns of the sun resulted in one turn of the ring in the same direction.

2:1 reduction and there is no external means of support. The device clearly works in theory.


Sean :cool2:

I planetaries can only be pinned to the ring gear. The device clearly works in theory.


Sean :cool2:


Nope. Can't pin the planetaries to the ring gear, and have it spin in relation to the planetaries. I went thru the gears of a C6 in my head. Some piece gets pinned to the case in each gear. I was wrong before.

Here's another example - imagine a 3 spd tranny put in place of the planetary doohicky. Imagine it's in first gear for nice reduction, and is supported at each end by the input shaft and output shaft.
Imagine your rig is up against a rock. You let out the clutch.
The 3speed tranny spins around, the rig doesn't move. Install a crossmember, mount the tranny ( or the planetary doohicky) and the rig moves. Whether or not the gears are planetary or not, you need to hold the gear reduction device still to get your extra torque out of it. Same holds with torque multipliers used for torquing big bolts. They have a handle on them. They just have to.

i have tryed to post these pics of a doug nash over/under drive unit i have that is shiftable. someone email me and ill send them to them and maybe someone else can post them.

We establish that the planetaries are pinned to the ring gear (because we built it that way)

Are you saying that the planetary gears remain pinned to the ring gear? If so the entire assembly is locked 1 to 1.

BTW. Thanks for the headache:rolleyes:

Are you saying that the planetary gears remain pinned to the ring gear? If so the entire assembly is locked 1 to 1.

No. I realized my choice of words might be confusing. The planetary gears themselves are not welded solid to the ring gear. The shafts that the planetaries spin on are welded to the ring gear. This makes the whole planetary gearset orbit the sun at the same rate as the ring gear but still allows the planetaries to rotate on their respective shafts.


Sean:cool2:

Ok I see what I was doing wrong. I was thinking that the planetary gear teeth were in contact with the inside of the ring gear. If they are not then the sun gear drives the planetary gears and the ring gear is driven by the shafts holding the planetary gears. Right?

Nope. That doesn't work either. Just made those changes to my solid model and now it free wheels again. So what am I missing:confused:

Ok I see what I was doing wrong. I was thinking that the planetary gear teeth were in contact with the inside of the ring gear. If they are not then the sun gear drives the planetary gears and the ring gear is driven by the shafts holding the planetary gears. Right?

No because the planetaries would just spin without transfering any power.

Sean

Yeah I misread and just agreed but the planetaries must remain in contact with the sun and the ring for this to work.


Sean

I am building my own dual t-case setup for my LWB and I have a planetary reduction gear just sitting on my bench. I will play with it and see if I can afford to modify it to be like the model I'm describing. I have several t-cases to play with so we'll see if I can sacrifice one.

http://www.gno.edu.on.ca/Simon/Toughguy/toughguy/truck/Samurai/doubler/IMG_7205.JPG

http://www.gno.edu.on.ca/Simon/Toughguy/toughguy/truck/Samurai/doubler/IMG_7185.JPG


It's one thing to plug it into Solidworks (which I want because I don't have) but it's another to actually watch a working model on the bench. If the two don't match, then there is something wrong somewhere right?


Sean

That sounds right except that if the axis for the planetary gears is attached to the plate that the ring gear is attached to there is no movement between the two gears.

That sounds right except that if the axis for the planetary gears is attached to the plate that the ring gear is attached to there is no movement between the two gears.

You're right. Back to the drawing board!:(


Sean

Solid works is a great tool especialy when you can build something on the screen and test the basics without cutting a single part.

The picture helps alot. Of course in the picture the ring gear is stationary to the case and the rotation is transfered through a seperate plate that the planetary gears are attached to. That is if I am looking at it right.

I can send the SW model of what I am looking at but I don't think it will rotate on your screen.

You're right. Back to the drawing board!:(


Sean



I will be sharing that drawing board. The concept is cool and is great brain execise:cool2:

As mentioned earlier in this thread something has to be connected to the frame. The transmission example I feel is dead on.

With that said I feel a very small sized gear reduction could be built with three gear choices. 1 to 1, middle gear range, and low. All using the same gears. The difference would be which gears rotated and which gears were locked in place.

I suppose this already exists but maybe not really compact.

Just a thought

No it doesnt.
Hope you arent studying to be a mechanical engineer at texas.:flipoff2:

look at the pic in the link about hardy.

Prove me wrong.

I am building my own dual t-case setup for my LWB and I have a planetary reduction gear just sitting on my bench. I will play with it and see if I can afford to modify it to be like the model I'm describing. I have several t-cases to play with so we'll see if I can sacrifice one,
Sean

Just take apart a cheap drill - most have planetaries. The little 3 volt screwdrivers would work. I just threw one away, or I'd do a little demo video.

This site has a nice animation for you to play with:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/automatic-transmission3.htm

That is a great link. However it looks like they stole my idea.:laughing:

I had a basic understanding of automatics but that cleared up alot. Most of my time has been spent on VW until my son shamed me into buying a zuk. Sold the Baja shortly after.

Even after looking at the trans demo I still don't think an inline floating reduction box will work.

http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10186/gears.bmp
i know it looks like the work of a kid with crayola ... but i oly have paint at work

That is a great link. However it looks like they stole my idea.:laughing:

I had a basic understanding of automatics but that cleared up alot. Most of my time has been spent on VW until my son shamed me into buying a zuk. Sold the Baja shortly after.

Even after looking at the trans demo I still don't think an inline floating reduction box will work.

Yup you are basically trying to reinvent the auto tranny. Clutch pacs, Bands and planetary Gears.

The basic issue is it can't float.

Here is a diagram of a toque multiplier - used so a 100 ft lb torque wrench can torque to 400 ft lbs, or whatever.
http://oemproamtools.com/torque/multiuse.jpg

It's an inline, floating planetary reduction unit. It has a handle, 'cause ya' gotta'.
Quote
"The mechanical advantage in the use of your torque multiplier is derived from the planetary transmission within
the gear head of the tool. With the torque mulitplier reaction bar in the fixed position against a stationary object,
and the tool input driving, the socket and fastener sees forces equaling the ratio of the torque multiplier or
combination of multipliers being used times the input force. Due to frictioanal loss in the gear train, a torque loss of 10% to 20% should be anticipated. In breaking a difficult or frozen fastener, the driving force is simply reversed. It is important to set the reaction bar against a strong stationary object. The reaction bar rotation is opposite the output force rotation."

Link to the nice people with the good information about their tools, since I borrowed their stuff:
http://oemproamtools.com/torque/princ.htm

Anybody left who thinks it can float and provide gear reduction? I think we're all preaching to the choir at this point, saying the same thing, differently.

The basic issue is it can't float.

Anybody left who thinks it can float and provide gear reduction? I think we're all preaching to the choir at this point, saying the same thing, differently.
Tim hardy already made it work
This pic was in the March '97 issue of Four Wheeler magazine. It was made by Kai Serrano and Tim Hardy. It's a 3:1 underdrive.
http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10082/shaft.jpg
http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12156/planretary.jpg
and i just posted a diagram of how it works above

BTW this is a done in fork lifts, it is a shaft speed reducer ( were tim got the idea)
http://www.involutetools.com/images/planetary.gif
here is the internals
http://www.auburngear.com/powerwheel/faq/answers/8d.jpg
http://www.involutetools.com/planetary-gear-boxes.htm
http://www.auburngear.com/powerwheel/faq/

did i mention:flipoff2:

plus there is a post on here about it

Ok so it works floating. Ive been wrong once before.:)

The link definetly helped. The single reduction diagram was clearer to follow. In CW out CW.

I was trying to connect to the ring gear instead of the carrier.:shaking:

Now picture if you will, one of these units with a cable that turns it on and off. Rumor has it that one or two of these were made and put into testing at Petroworks. It was also rumored to be a very affordable gear reduction option, but it never moved beyond that stage. Has been many years now...

-Wayne

man I wish TIm was on line.. I know his number was posted a while back...who was it that had tim do a lot of less then satifactory cage work to their rig?
now where is that search button when you need it:mad3:

Tim hardy already made it work
This pic was in the March '97 issue of Four Wheeler magazine. It was made by Kai Serrano and Tim Hardy. It's a 3:1 underdrive.
http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10082/shaft.jpg
http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12156/planretary.jpg
and i just posted a diagram of how it works above

BTW this is a done in fork lifts, it is a shaft speed reducer ( were tim got the idea)
http://www.involutetools.com/images/planetary.gif
here is the internals
http://www.auburngear.com/powerwheel/faq/answers/8d.jpg
http://www.involutetools.com/planetary-gear-boxes.htm
http://www.auburngear.com/powerwheel/faq/

did i mention:flipoff2:

plus there is a post on here about it


:D


Ok - call me a doubter. Just show me one, installed, fully floating, that reduces gearing. The pics in the links look like the little forklift cases get married to something. The picture of Tims Hardy's has the appearance of floating, but it's not mounted - so I reserve the right to be a doubter.

I like the idea - it's so crazy simple, it must work. I can even live with one that has some sort of bar sticking out of it, like the torque multipliers. But it will have to be defined as something other than full floating.

If it has a cable going to it, for high/low, it really needs to not spin around :flipoff2:

now where is that search button when you need it:mad3:

It's been a pain to say the least. But there's a way around it. If you have Yahoo Companion toolbar, for example, you have an option to search within the currently viewed website.:cool2: It works awesome because you can search within pirate using all of the boolean-type search functions AND you can search for 2 or 3 letter words! :smokin:

man I wish TIm was on line.. I know his number was posted a while back...who was it that had tim do a lot of less then satifactory cage work to their rig?
now where is that search button when you need it:mad3:

scwa, iirc

http://www.zuwharrie.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12156/planretary.jpg
and i just posted a diagram of how it works above

BTW this is a done in fork lifts, it is a shaft speed reducer ( were tim got the idea)
http://www.involutetools.com/images/planetary.gif
here is the internals
http://www.auburngear.com/powerwheel/faq/answers/8d.jpg
http://www.involutetools.com/planetary-gear-boxes.htm
http://www.auburngear.com/powerwheel/faq/


Okay. Here's the thing. From the pics and what people say, Tim hardy ran a 'full floating' planetary gear reduction. They also say that the idea came from a fork lift. Heck they even have a picture of his and of a fork lift one, so I am so inclined to believe that it is possible to do.

That being said, I still have no idea how they do it. It would still appear to me that something must be stationary but it would seem that I must be wrong. So how's it work?

And before you go pasting more pics of it broken apart like the one above, let me go ahead and disprove that little pic for ya. If you look close enough at that underdrive you will notice that it is the exact same thing as mentioned above by rotozuk with this animation:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/automatic-transmission3.htm

You should notice in that animation, if the sun gear is the input and the carrier of the planetaries is the 'output' and has resistance on it from not wanting to turn the wheels (click the bottom option where the planetaries are stationary) the ring gear will just spin. :shaking:

Now it should be noted that the diagram claims the ring would be the output on that option, but for resistance (not 'stationary') sake, we will call it the planetaries.

Look closely. The exploded view above shows this exact mechanism, but more complicated and detailed. It would appear to me that the outer ring would just spin instead of the vehicle moving.

So the question remains. How does a floating planetary reduction really box work?

yes in the single planitary set up you are correct ( like in "how stuf works).. what tim used has two in side the same outer gear
yes the outer gear does spin.
the first sungear drives the outer ring in turn spins the second sun gear in witch an out put is found .. the "lever" you are looking for is the friction of the ground from the tires it works much like and automatic ... follow the diagram I drew ... it works ...it's a simple in line reducer. They are used in many applications other then fork lifts, this not a wonder tool its pyshics

as for the cable .. that is somthing petro works has been buildign I do not know what they are doing

look closer at the pix of tim hardys reducer it appears to have a mounting foot on the bottom right hand side. it is kind of hard to see in the shadow. In the blue background pix.

look closer at the pix of tim hardys reducer it appears to have a mounting foot on the bottom right hand side. it is kind of hard to see in the shadow. In the blue background pix.

It's a fold in the material under the unit.


Sean :cool2:

:D
Look closely. The exploded view above shows this exact mechanism, but more complicated and detailed. It would appear to me that the outer ring would just spin instead of the vehicle moving.


I agree and you would be right...but take a second look at the diagrams. Those little hash marks mean that those parts are grounded (to something)--other than the input and output.

If you look at supazuk's diagram (top of the page), and tried to spin the center sun gear, the planetaries would just spin around and round, and nothing else would happen (the ring would stay stationary). If you hook the planetary cage to the ring gear, the center planetary assembly would become 1:1. Think about it, if the planetary cage is attached to the ring gear, how can the planets possibly spin? They are locked in place by the ring gear!!

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you run through a 2:1 reducer and expect to get half the speed/double the torque, that torque must react against something (like a crossmember).

That being said, you can have a 2:1 in-line reducer, if the torque on the input and output stays the same. How? Look at a slipping clutch, the power lost just goes out as heat. So if you made your reducer to have the right friction in the right places, it would sort of work (but with no torque multiplication) and a LOT of heat production. Probably the best example of something that could survive (for a bit) would be a viscous coupling. They used to sell one that would bolt on in place of the front t-case output yoke, to convert your part time 4wd into a sort of full time 4wd. Some magazine showed one on a chevy pickup back in the early 90's.

This got me wondering, how does a torque converter do it? B&M for example, claims a 2.5:1 torque multiplication. Turns out they rely on a third component, the Stator, which is grounded (fixed) to the transmission housing with a one way drive (which allows it to freewheel when the pump (input) and turbine (output) are going roughly the same speed).

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter2.htm

I think the only solution, and it's not too tough, would be to fix the reducer to something--the trans, t-case, or it's own crossmember. Or like somebody said, put a shifter on it. Just make sure it and the hole in the floor are up to the task :D

:D

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you run through a 2:1 reducer and expect to get half the speed/double the torque, that torque must react against something (like a crossmember).





I was thinking this too, but what about the Hardy pic, and that blue unit?

you keep sighting "how things work" that is demostrating a single planitary set up as i said this set is used in may other applications it is not a beast of mystery ... you must picture tow sungears inside a single outer ring
-first the input applys torque to the sungears
-in turn applying a rotaional force to the outer ring
-the outer ring now applys that torque to the second set or sun gears
-then second set of gears thus applys to the output
-this in turn aplys force to the remaining drivetrain
- the friction of the tires to the gorund alows the gears to lock and rotate

this set up would only work with a spooled rear

you keep sighting "how things work" that is demostrating a single planitary set up as i said this set is used in may other applications it is not a beast of mystery ... you must picture tow sungears inside a single outer ring
-first the input applys torque to the sungears
-in turn applying a rotaional force to the outer ring
-the outer ring now applys that torque to the second set or sun gears
-then second set of gears thus applys to the output
-this in turn aplys force to the remaining drivetrain
- the friction of the tires to the gorund alows the gears to lock and rotate

this set up would only work with a spooled rear

:shaking:

If it works or doesn't work, it has nothing to do with spooled or not spooled rear end.

So far, your explanations are gobbledy-gook. Statements like the one about the spooled rear make me lose any faith in your logic. The pictures of the devices for forklifts appear to me to indicate the housing is married to the housing of the transmission they bolt onto. Tim's device is also unmounted, and out of context. You pictures of the various gears don't show anything that makes sense, your planets and ring gears don't show why they don't freewheel.

But please, make one, that's unmarried, free floating, and provides gear reduction. It should be amazing. I'll eat my words. I even have a welded rear end, should I need one when you get in production.

How about one of those varible speed steering gear boxes thingies on the fancy new BMW's?

http://www.bmwworld.com/technology/afs.htm

I think they electrically spin the sun gear in one direction or the other at varieing speeds.


and say couldnt you just hook 2 or 3 of the varible speed boxes together to make a constantly varible transmission that didnt have belts & cones?

It would need a spooled or locked rear because other wise the reduction unit would instead act like an 2nd open differential.. and end up just spinning if a tire was lifted
Btw I have explained in technical detail, you however have sighted a web site the same one over and over .. come back with more then one resources.
Also as I have stated this is easy physics not some mystery part..
as for unit made by Kai Serrano and Tim Hardy, in was documented in the 97' FOURWHEELER. Also it is shown working in video TTC and ultimate adventure
I guess they guy that invented everything we know about samuria's wasted his time on a part that wouldn't work.
you can't really see it in the pic but in the video its more visable.
http://fourwheeler.com/featuredvehicles/p39093_image_large.jpg

http://www.fourwheeler.com/featuredvehicles/5086/index.html

So where is this reduction unit you talk about? Is it in the differential? If not what difference could a spooled rear end have to do with anything?

the reduction unit takes the place of the intemdiate drive shaft
a spooled/ locked rear acts as the opposing force to the reduction gear
if you will picture a nut and bolt witha gear wrench at each end
if torque is only applyed to one side the nut spins freein the other wrench
however if there is an opposing force on both sides the nut and bolt tighten
the tires act as the "missing arm"
if not spooled/ locked and the input just spins