My mom's english, and when I was a kid she used to read to us or recite from memory "cautionary tales for children" one of which had to do with a boy visiting the zoo who would not listen to his nurse (babysitter) and went a bit too close to the lion's cage. He was slowly consumed until only his head was left, and the zookeeper, arriving on the scene a bit late, commanded the lion: "down sir, put it down."

In any event, recent experience, and the input of a few among you have led me to conclude I should post up my cautionary tale about my recent issues with my steering.

A few weeks ago I took a drive in my 109 on the freeway and a windy SR to a small town intending to meet my brother to go for a hike in the Cascade foothills. I cruised out at 60-70 mph. Got to town, went to crank a U turn and lost all steering, hearing a small clunk at full lock. Luckily I was only going maybe ten miles an hour. I narrowly misseda parked junk pickup truck.

After a few choice words, I got out (having bumped the curb) and took a look. The tube (the name of which I can't recall) that threads into a TRE on the drop arm on the bottom of the power steering box (saginaw) and runs to the pass side swivel hub had pulled off the threaded end of the TRE. The threads inside the tube were virtually gone. There was a clamp on the tube. I noticed for the first time that the end of the tube was tapered but not slotted to allow the clamp to compress. No lock nut on the TRE threads. The other end was similar except that it had not come undone.

Obviously, this was not set up properly by the shop that did the work.

Just as obviously, this failure could have led to me being killed. Five minutes earlier, and that may have been the case. Had it happened a few weeks earlier on a ski trip, my wife and I could have left four orphaned kids.

Finally, this was obviously not a sudden failure, and I should have noticed it developing (noise on steering perhaps, and play in the tube). Likewise, I should have paid more attention to the large amount of exposed thread on the tie rod ends, which I was never really comfortable with. I also should have noticed the lack of slotting at the TRE ends of the tube. However, I let my reliance on the guys who set it all up "knowing what they were doing" lull me into compacency.

All this, and some other stuff have led me to (a) want to post this and encourage all of us to pay closer attention if need be, to steering and brakes; and (b) let it be known (without advertising the rig formally) that my 109, warts and all, is for sale. But if you plan to offer less than $25,000, don't bother me, and I reserve the right to refuse to sell it at any price. It is a largish loss at that price.

It is presently at a very reputable shop being fixed, and having some other work done. I don't mean to condemn anyone with this post or to start any little old lady-ish gossip crap. I've held backl on other stuff I thought was important in the interest of avoiding potentially hirting someone's feelings. But this could easily have killed my ass, and that kind of hurts my feelings. So I thought I'd post it.

So go inspect your steering and bleed and adjust your brakes. Don't die.

OS, if you feel this belongs more appropriately elsewhere, I know you will feel free to move it, but I'd like it to stay here a few days if that's oik with you.

Simon

Simon,
thanks for providing this information. I have heard of folks that have had catastophic failures in the TRE-rod connection.

I know I have never been 100% comfortable with the entire tie rod design on the Series. So I went and got new rod, ends, and pinch clamps. Used generous amounts of anti-sieze when I assembled it. before any off roading trip they all get checked out. I only have 1/2" of thread exposed, so I just make sure that hasn't changed and make sure I cant turn anything by hand.
When the truck gets rebuilt next I plan on tapping DOM and using a lock nut setup instead of the thin rod and pinch clamp.

I am sorry to hear you are thinking of getting rid of the truck.

Pete

Start doing you own work.If you don't know how,learn,may save your life.
A standard repair shop has no way to understand the stresses that off-road driving puts on vehicles so it's up to you to make your own ride secure.

dmay, if it were up to me to have done the work then I'd either be dead or wouldn't have been riding in the 109 to begin with. I hired the work out because it was beyond me in terms of skills, time and inclination, and because I had the dough to pay for it to be done properly by a shop way way way more familiar with the stresses that offroad driving puts a vehicle through than me. Had I done the work it would have been wrong, or not done at all. I did a lot of the work on the truck, but hired out a lot of the major mechanical stuff and the fabrication, for the most part.

The point of the post is, I guess, to keep an eye on critical stuff so you don't end up hurt or dead. I agree with teh adage that if you want something done right you need to do it yourself, but that adage assumes the basic knowledge to do the job, or the time and inclination to learn it.

Simon

Pictures of the carnage would be nice. I think the failure had more to do with the full lock steering situation then you give it credit for. But I agree it sounds like the setup was less then safe. Did it give you any warning with a loose steering 'feel'

Why are you giving up on this vehicle? You have gone to a lot of effort to get it to the point it is at now. I am sure a little more scruitineering on the safety of its operation could make it what you need it to be.

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

JP

This type of failure on old Landeys is quite common and the reason why
I think is that it may have something to do with them originally being assembled without Neverseize or similar. Many that I have had to replace TRE's on have been frozen with rust. people unscrew the old TRE with penetrating oil,a vice and self gripping wrench sometimes after heating and peening the crap out of the tube and it invariably stretches and wears the internal threads of the tubes so that the new TRE doesn't really tighten up properly. These tubes should of course be replaced, but many people don't or can't due to lack of spares. A bit of vibration from offroading or inperfect balance and the threads hog right out in time. I once did a get home repair to a guys Landey in the middle of nowhere after his TRE stripped out at low speed luckily for him, by knocking the TRE back in and drilling a 1/4 inch hole through the tube and TRE and using a nut and bolt to hold it together.
If you must re use an old suspect tierod or drag link for any reason then at least clean out and if necessary, widen the the clamping slot in the tube with a hacksaw or similar so that the clamp pinches nice and tight.
Bill.

Bill:
I met with Simon a day ro two after this happened so I was treated to the full brunt of his distaste. I will honor his desire to not name anyone involved except to say I'm glad I wasn't involved in the fab work.

The arm that failed was far from stock Rover and was built by someone claiming to be knowledgable enough to do something like this.

To return to the original intent of encouraging folks to scrutinize their setups, while I've not had a safety related issue such as this, I have been horrified to inspect various components on my truck(s) only to find them bone dry of lubricants or dangerously worn.

What Simon is trying to get us to do is be more diligent in our fabrication, repair, service and inspections (If I understood his intent and his ranting last week).

I personally have seen so many dangerously worn tie rod ends that just driving around other vehicles has become frightening unless I've recently worked on them :flipoff2:

PT

Simon,

If you get a moment this weekend call me or PM me with some more details about your steering.

I have two trucks I'm now a little nervous about that just might have the same setup you do.

Simon,

If you get a moment this weekend call me or PM me with some more details about your steering.

I have two trucks I'm now a little nervous about that just might have the same setup you do.


OK,someone post pics and specs on this steering your talking about,you don't have to name names,just let the webengineers have a crack(no pun intended) at critique of this setup.

I have been horrified to inspect various components on my truck(s) only to find them bone dry of lubricants or dangerously worn.

:flipoff2:

PT

Like this pile of scrap.(not including Keiths rear link)

http://i.pbase.com/g3/35/542535/3/58655048.newlink.jpg

2nd broken steering story I've heard in 2 weeks. Scared me enough to go to all new greasable TREs and HD rods.

Scared me enough to go to all new greasable TREs and HD rods.

Kevin:
Hate to bust your balls, but the ONLY way to go for TREs is factory. Those I've used with zerx wore out amazingly fast. The OEM TREs wear out fast enough, but the ones with the zerx are worse.

W/R/T HD steering rods, if the threads aren't class A, they might not be any better and might be worse. The PE who does my design certs, won't certify steering rods that aren't split with clamp rings, in spite of the numerous OEMs using jam nuts. His argument is that between the cycling forces of compression and expansion and the extra clamping force of the clamps, the clamp method is the only way to go. Given his past of working for Chrysler and International Harvester (and having his PE), he has far more knowledge than us web engineers (and many of us who are real engineers).

PT

you guys afraid of 250 wall dom and heims? you can just bore out the re holes to 3/4" and viola. you may not get 100 k out of them, but they hold up quite well.

A few years ago when I worked for a LandRover spare parts supplyer I pulled apart every brand of aftermarket greasable and non greasable Tie Rod end to compare it with the original equipment. Without exception they were all inferior, some with poorly machined ball ends running in badly shaped pressed tin spherical seats and even rubber springs in place of the original hardened ,ground ball pin and seats and steel conical spring. they were also all weaker in my ''shear'' test comparison which basically involved holding the joint in a vice, slipping a 6 ft length of pipe over the threaded end and bending to see what angle of deflection was required to break it off. After those tests I concleded that all those available at the time were crap.
I use genuine TRE's drilled and tapped to accept grease nipples
Bill.

I'd like to agree with the Genuine part being better as they generally are, but the greasable end Keviny is refering to seems to hold up very well especially in the heavy shit conditions when you wheel east coast style. I ran a genuine article on one end of the tie rod and the same end Kev has on the other end on the shop rig, which does take a thrashing and 2yrs later (75k mi) they are both fine but the greasable one looks better, and the test goes on. I suppose the ultimate is a genuine article w/ the greasy fittn' like AG says.

I did have a TRE just fall out on my DD RRC (low speed pulling into the shop). A truck that was dealer maintained until I got it 4K mi ago. Not bitchin' about dealer service (:flipoff2: PT) which looks to have been top notch....but I had noticed the steering was less than crisp and a slight "flutter" at the wheel and should have looked at the fawkin thing.

I can't speak for the "engineering" of Simons modifications or repairs. I do understand the reality check when somthing like that fails. I'm glad Simon is ok and I only cleaned out 2 sets of rather large tyres and scared the crap out of a sleeping dog. I think the point that needs to be taken from Simon is that even with a "factory' rig that gets driven offroad, some amount of "pre-flight inspection" should be considered. If the rig has been modified, a thorough, more frequent look may be prudent.

Matt,

Rear links cores are yours, will bring to Greenup. Worked like a charm.
http://i.pbase.com/g3/35/542535/3/58719056.DSCF0125.jpg

Will try to get out to the shop where the truck languishes with digital camera sometime this week if time allows, but there's really nothing to look at. Anyone on the board in PDX is welcome to take a pic if they happen by the shop. If you are familiar with the "Rover scene" in Portland you know where it is.

I am confident the design is fine. The guy who specced it has put many many miles on many trucks he has built from ground up. It was the execution that was lacking: a too short rod, with clamps but no slots (WTF?) and too little TRE thread engaged into the rod end. Simple as that. The TREs are non greasable and appear to be of high quality. Had a few conversations with the guy about the steering during the build because I sourced the saginaw box, and he definitely knows the importance of a good, quality, strong setup. I think perhaps a shop monkey was entrusted with part of the work and fawked it up. Can not however, explain how the defects were not caught at the shop.

Being in the line of work I am in I can not help but think of the huge potential liability driving around if there are other trucks out there being driven around set up like mine was.

And again, like I wrote above, a very healthy portion of the blame lies on me for not recognizing the danger posed by the amount of exposed TRE thread, looking more closely at the rod ends (lack of clamps) and for also failing to preflight the truck often enough to notice what was clearly a slow motion failure.

Have a guy interested in it, but dunno yet if the $25k price tag scared him off or not. I'm having serious second thoughts about selling.
Simon

Don't sell man........you'll regret it. Regular Rover kooks need to have at least 4 other rigs before selling one without suffering from terminal self doubt.

I has something similar happen on my father's 88" IIA. He uses it on the beach/coastal islands a lot, and though all the structural steel parts are galvanised, it had stock tie rods, one end of which pulled out while he was driving at about 30mph. Fortunately he still had steering on one wheel so everything was fine. It seems the threads had rusted out internally from the salt air/water.

If you are familiar with the "Rover scene" in Portland you know where it is.

Simon

Simon is Ships doing the repairs? If not, who else in Portland is doing Rover stuff now?

Pete

nd again, like I wrote above, a very healthy portion of the blame lies on me for not recognizing the danger posed by the amount of exposed TRE thread, looking more closely at the rod ends (lack of clamps) and for also failing to preflight the truck often enough to notice what was clearly a slow motion failure.

Sorry but I don't buy that. I spent 5 years working in auto repair shops and there is no way in hell you can expect the consumer to know the difference between safe and unsafe work in many situations. I believe this to be one of them.

How often have you changed out Rover TRE's? For all you knew the TRE had twice the amount of thread inside the rod as exposed.

If Doug has the truck now ask him to go over some of the safety checks with you. Maybe even arrange for the May 11thClub meeting to be a safety checks thing. I know that Gord'n and Doug have both done so in the past.
Its not just an issue of someone installing the items incorrectly, they do go bad, and its important for all owners to be able to check them and know what they are looking at.

Pete

I hate to resurrect this thread but feel compelled to do so. The very last idea I wanted anyone to get from this thread or any other post I have sent or conversation I have had with anyone, is that I in any way shape or form blame Timm for any issues with my truck. From the very beginning it was crystal clear to me that a modified truck would have issues. As I went to great pain to note above, I am absolutely convinced that Timm would NEVER have knowingly sent my truck out the door with the steering as it was. Ever.

I would have no hesitation at all in having Timm build a truck for me from the ground up again. I don;t believe he had anything to do with the propblem with the steering on my truck.

It has come to my attention that various little old lady types among the "rover community" have been spending their time gossipping about how my truck is always broken and spends a lot of time at a local shop. the fact of the matter is it has never broken, except for teh steering. I have had it at a local shopa few times getting things added - work I wanted done. Never because it was broken.

I do need a better cold air supply on the intake. that is an issue I am working on. I have been aware of it. It is my issue, not BCB/Timm Cooper's issue. The truck came to me with no intake - just an open turbo.

The last thing Timm needs right now with the breakup of BCB is people talking bullshit on subjects they know nothing about. So if anyone reading this has been participating in BS gossip about my truck and the work done by BCB, as the owner of the truck and a friend of Timm, I am respectfully asking you to stop it please.

Leave the gossip to the old ladies at the salon.

One last thing. Whether I typed it or not, the biggest reason for me not contacting Timm with the steering issue had to do with my not wanting to bug him with it because I knew what was happening with BCB, adn also had to do with teh fact that he was 1000 miles away, and I had the truck towed to a shop that could fix it. It had nothing to do with my faith in Timm.

Bitch slap me if you like, but this needed to be said, in fairness to Timm, whom I consider to be an honest, straightforward guy who has encountered a bad run of business luck.

Simon

Nice reply Simon.

JP

"Pick a little...talk a little...pick a little...talk a little...PICK PICK PICK, talk a lot, pick a little more..."

http://www.risd41.org/ri/rockislandhigh/Curriculum/music/img/musicman3d.gif

Aren't little ol' ladies and the gossip mill fun? This is the main reason why I didn't interject with comments about Timm's business from the get-go (ummm...about 10 years ago if memory serves...).

Nice post Simon.