Rock Krawler Lift 2 trips home early!

[wgilbertpt]

I am not pleased with this second generation Rock Krawler 8" YJ coilover conversion. First trip the torque arm rebuildable joint came apart and stripped the threads. This is the arm that keeps the front axle from rotating. Went home early. Rock Krawler is sending me another joint but I also bought a spare since it doesn't seem like they are going to last that long. If it happens again I will be looking to replace it with a different joint and blasting Rock Krawler forever.
Next trip the driver side coilover broke. I was driving up a washout and the drivers side was fully compressed with the passenger side full droop when the Fox coilover shox broke where the rod goes into the bottom of the shock. The coils came out like a cannon. Rock Krawler says it's not their shock, Fox says its not covered because it shouldn't have broke there. No shit. So now I have to send it in to Fox for a $40 rebuild plus $15 for the rod plus shipping.:mad3: Then I get to figure out after assembly if there is something binding or a design flaw or an install flaw.

[Schmozilla]

and you people didnt believe me... I have delt with this and the only way to fix it involves an Esab plasma, 13 Evolution Machine joints, 4 16 inch SAW coil over and coils, some tube, a bender, plate steel, and oh yeah... alot of work... have fun


I spent a week and Moab beating the ever living shit out of my rig and I destroyed just about every part of the Rock Krawler suspention including severly warping the upper link mound on the rear axle, breaking RK joints, ripping bolts out of the mounts, breakin suspention bolts, breaking mounts compleatly(and not where they were welded, ovaling out holes to the point that they are just waisted... I had absolutly no other trouble except with the RK stuff

[wgilbertpt]

Make that 3 trips out and 3 trips broken. I took extra joints and bolts to make it through the weekend running black trails at Paragon and had to fix it every day with broken joints, broken bolts on the y arm at both ends. Time for a rebuild.

[nobody20]

Thanks for the posting on RK and the update. I too am in the market for coilover for a YJ and it isn’t going to be a RK.

I saw Fab Tech’s at SEMA last fall and it is front only leaf rear as is Superlift’s X2 ( http://www.rockcrawler.com/tours/superlift/page3.asp ). The Fab Tech certainly has a lot of hardware associated with it. Don’t really know anything about Clayton’s. It seems the most trouble free has been Warn’s Black Diamond XCL that Superlift now produces. I don’t know how the original Warn and Superlift quality compares though.

[Whaley Enterprises]

clayton stuff is simple beffy and works.....Rockkrawler stuff well not so much...

[wgilbertpt]

clayton stuff is simple beffy and works.....Rockkrawler stuff well not so much...

It may end up in your direction. Randy has good things to say about you and the work you have done on his bronco.

[Beat95YJ]

I'd use clayton or have something fab'd up.

The original Warn XCL had a lot of issues with bushing failures, but was other wise a good kit. The shocks were not great either. Great for the time, but times have changed.

I have not seen an X2 kit, so I won't comment.

[crawlinxj]

YEP


i had a xj rear coilover kit and the truss folded after 3 trips. it caused a fox coilover to break in half just like yours.


luckly foxed fixed mine for free:D


here is a link to the thread with pics

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=476624




shaffers offraod is building me a whole new rear suspention

[wgilbertpt]

Got off the phone with Rock Krawler and they blamed the install. Said it was the joints not aligned properly or the bolts not torqued properly. I did make sure the joints were aligned properly and I torqued them as well. Then he said I may have torqued it down but it still may not have been tight enough. He said I had to tighten the bolts down enough to deform the bracket and make good contact with the misalignment spacers and then tighten it down as tight as I could get it. Those bolts are grade 5 hardware. Time to do it myself. I will seek out and speak to all in need of a lift kit and definitely steer them away.

[Schmozilla]

well yall got lucky... my front suspention broke on the highway when i hit the breakes and I rolled my jeep at 50 MPH... all RK did was replace the suspention and insisted my welds were incorrect, that was untill they found out that the family business is an engineering firm and we had everything analysed... verdect??? improperly designed front torq arm... so they redesigned it according to my suggestion ( the bottom arm on the drivers side used to be about 8 inches long and parallel to the top arm0 It twisted and the jeep went over...

[nobody20]

well yall got lucky... my front suspention broke on the highway when i hit the breakes and I rolled my jeep at 50 MPH... all RK did was replace the suspention and insisted my welds were incorrect, that was untill they found out that the family business is an engineering firm and we had everything analysed... verdect??? improperly designed front torq arm... so they redesigned it according to my suggestion ( the bottom arm on the drivers side used to be about 8 inches long and parallel to the top arm0 It twisted and the jeep went over...

Let's have a cheer for good ole forensic engineering! :smokin:

[nobody20]

I'd use clayton or have something fab'd up.

The original Warn XCL had a lot of issues with bushing failures, but was other wise a good kit. The shocks were not great either. Great for the time, but times have changed.

I have not seen an X2 kit, so I won't comment.

I agree. The Warn was pretty good kit for its time, relatively speaking.

I will likely deesign and fab my own coilover system for the YJ. Since I am an engineer, I am able to read and understand Miliken and Miliken, use the four link calculator, pay lots of attention to the better 4-link posts here, consult with a few of the better professional fabricators (friends) I know in Phoenix, and come up with a design for a reasonable link system. At least that is what I am hoping for.

[chris_amrein]

Does the RK use limit staps for the front? The reason I ask is I built a wishbone 3 link rear suspension a few years ago using Fox coilovers. The first time I took it out I tore the top of the shock off because I was using it as my droop stop. My personnal opinion is that it isn't fair to fault Fox if the shock fails because it was used as a limit strap. If I am not mistaken, RK sells their kits with Fox's only, so their kit should not allow the shock to over extend.

Hope this helps.
Chris

[wgilbertpt]

it does not include limit straps or bump stops. Probably something I should consider.

[chris_amrein]

IMO NOT something you should have to consider. If you buy a complete kit it should include everything you need or at least let you know that you MUST buy other accesories to make it work. For example, any 8" Wrangler kit will require a SYE kit. It may not be part of the original 8" kit, but reputable manufactures will make a footnote that the kit will need it.

My point being, unless RK's instructions said you needed limit straps (or bumpstops) to avoid shock failures, then RK is to blame and not FOX. Likewise, RK should pay for the parts and labor to repair your shock.

Chris

[Beat95YJ]

:rainbow: RK is gay, has always been gay and will continue to be gay until they fold.

Their are so many good lift kit companies and even entry level that are above RK it amazes me that people still buy their ill designed garbage.

[Schmozilla]

IMO NOT something you should have to consider. If you buy a complete kit it should include everything you need or at least let you know that you MUST buy other accesories to make it work. For example, any 8" Wrangler kit will require a SYE kit. It may not be part of the original 8" kit, but reputable manufactures will make a footnote that the kit will need it.

My point being, unless RK's instructions said you needed limit straps (or bumpstops) to avoid shock failures, then RK is to blame and not FOX. Likewise, RK should pay for the parts and labor to repair your shock.

Chris

Its called common fucking sence...

When you get to the point of full suspention replacements such as the RK coil conversion they can assume that you are not a compleate fucking idiot and have a basic knowledge of what you are dealing with... its is by no means a bolt on kit.

and yes RKs instructions DO say that you need limit straps.


Oh and they replaced 2 fox shocks for me, for free :flipoff2:

(But the kit still sucks) Its good for about 35s and stock running gear... 60s and red dot Krawlers? :evil:

[under_psi]

all too often i read about the RK kits grenading on wheelers...sorry, but i like living and these kits, including the 2nd gen put you in danger b/c they are flawed?

i have a clayton kit under my jeep and would not put anything else under there short of a custom build.....it is beefy, proven, and oh yeah, has johnny joints, which dont tend to fall apart...

[recycledxj]

Yeah after many sites and posts saying that rockkrawler stuff is bad, I consulted with my technician and we are going to make are own 3 link front for my cherokee. Thank You guys for being so helpful on this kind of stuff.

[wgilbertpt]

I'm building new links with new joints. Going to fab a "Y arm" on both sides and have 10.5" between upper and lower mounts, and better joints.

[Schmozilla]

Im going to do full custom 4 links in a few months usinf EVO joints... should be interesting...

Id like to see what you come up with.

[Schmozilla]

Im going to do full custom 4 links in a few months usinf EVO joints... should be interesting...

Id like to see what you come up with.

[rockdw22]

And to think people still ague about how good there shit is.

[wgilbertpt]

I called Evo yesterday and told them what I needed. They said I'll have my machinist call you back today and let you know availability etc. They never called me back so I am looking for different joints. If they are not there when you are ordering are they going to be there when something goes wrong. Sorry but I have no more tolerance for people that don't call back.

[bnine]

They are balls to the wall right now. It will take some persistance to get through to them, and get an order started.

Worth the hassle if you can afford them.

If you get there joints, you wont need to be calling them to often, if ever. Every one is individually machined out of a solid hunk of chromo.

They'd be on my rig if I could afford them. But the "junk" RK ones are still holding up, so they will have to do for now.

[RockKrawler1]

wgilbertpt

We apologize if you had a joint that was misassembled from us, but we do warranty all of those items Gen II and newer for life. We will take care of any customer? On your coil over issue, after installing the brackets, did you cycle the suspension to make sure you did not run out of misaligment on the coil over ends? That would have given you a hint that something may be wrong. If that was done and you did not run out of misalignment, then you are correct there is no reason why the shock should have sheared at the base.

We will put our X Factor lineup against any systems that are out there and back them up 100%. Customers need to realize that no matter whose kit they put in, no matter how tough they think or say it is, the installer has alot to do with the success of the outcome. No matter what. If not, then you end up with people that can drive through a McDonald's drive through and spill a hot coffee in their lap and get a couple million dollars. The real solution is simple, be careful when you are reaching for your coffee!

Yes, we do require proof of proper install. Visualization is the only way to verify something is installed correctly. Every major company does the same.

Crawlinxj - one of the guys here said he knows of you and said we warrantied the cradle for free for you and aplogized that you got one that was unboxed. Again, we stood behind it 100%.

If someone has a problem, it does help to contact the manufacturer to try to figure it out. For the most part every manufacture we know of is there to help.

Rock Krawler

[RockKrawler1]

Schmolliza Who are you and what are you talking about?

[wgilbertpt]

what I found was the krawler joint failed, one side blew out the retainer and that allowed the pinion to rotate downward. With my 9"/60 setup with high steer there is very little clearance between the steering arm on the drivers side and the shock. After install it cycled just fine but with the Krawler joint failure and rotation of the pinion it was just enough at full articulation to cause contact between the steering arm and the base of the fox shock. The joint failed during a climb in a washout and the only way out was forward. thats why I drove it on a failed joint. Unfortunately the shock was not covered and I had to pay for a rebuild. To allow more clearance and prevent this from happening again I moved the shock mount toward the rear of the vehicle by 1" and replaced all of the joints with another brand. I am also installing a torque arm on the passenger side to help reduce the force on the single joint on the drivers side. It may be overkill but even though you cover the joint for life you do not cover the cost of hauling the jeep 180 miles one way on 3 different trips, pay entrance to the park and only to break in the first couple hours. I enjoy working on my jeep but when fixing the same thing over and over I tend to think there is a problem with the mechanics of the kit. I will finish the modifications this week and going to head to Rausch Creek this weekend and hopefully will be able to make it through a whole weekend. I will make this kit work with modifications as I am in too deep to replace it now.

[RockKrawler1]

wgilbertpt That thing must have been rattling around like crazy when the threaded retainer started backing out. That should have been your first hint that something was wrong. It is simple to check the joints as well since they can be adjusted while still in the vehicle.

The kit was not designed to work with high steer, steering setups. You must have a good amount of bump steer for sure. The system, as with almost all after market systems are designed to go with OE style steering designs. Which in the case of YJ's was not high steer. This happens alot with jeep owners as well who switch to high steer setups but do not correct the track bar geometry to go with the high steer setup. The drag link and track bar should be equal length and operate at the same angle for them to work well with one another. Good Luck with your modifications. Keep in mind, you will loose a great amount of articulation by adding a torque arm to the other side. If you have any questions feel free to give us a call. We will do our best to help you out.

[wgilbertpt]

There was no warning when the threaded retainer failed with 5:1 ratio and 4:56 gears in first crawling. It didn't back out it was pushed out and stripped the threads. Since I was in a washout with wheels on each side there was no way to stop and fix it. Driving another 10 feet would clear me of the obstacle and allow repair. Driving that 10 feet the drivers side front slowly went into full compression and contacted the steering arm with the shock and breakage. I will have to link to the video if I can find it again. Telling me now that it was not designed to work with high steer setups does nothing for me since the instructions didn't mention it and neither did the advertisement for the kit. It did say it could be cut for my 9" axles front and rear which are also not YJ axles. I'm not too worried about bumpsteer since 95% of my driving is on the rocks. Primary concern is not to bust it off the axle.

[KiGrind]

clayton stuff is simple beffy and works.....Rockkrawler stuff well not so much...

Rock Krawler lifts don't seem bad if your doing some light wheeling. But other then that it just looks to be one of those poser lifts were you get flex but its not much good outside the mall parking lot.

I spent a night at Windrock helping a freind replace a bolt that broke (Wasn't even grade8 and was pretty little) and moving the axel around with limited amount of equipment You knows, its pretty hard to fix something like that, int he winter when the ground is frozen like a giant sheet of ice, the axel shoved back under the drivers door, and the jeep resting on two highlift jacks at very dangerous angles considering the fact wer were on a hill... and couldn't move the vehicle at all.

[RockKrawler1]

Most instances we either use the factory hardware of replace most factory 10mm hardware on jeeps with 14mm hardware. Could it be that a bolt was loose? That is a very good question.

Yes we can custom cut our axle brackets to fit just about any axle tube size, but we do not state anywhere that it will work with altered steering other than factory style steering. High steer is great, but if it is not there from the factory, then no major manufacturer is going to design around it.

Pirate 4x4 is a board for the avid do it your selfer. That is what you guys preach. When you are combining off the shelf with do it your self then all you need to do is work closely with the manufacturer and ask questions. That will keep you out of trouble. In the early days of Pirate 4x4 it was a great place to get good information.

[wgilbertpt]

Okay to bring us up to date. I removed all the Rock Krawler joints in the front and replaced them with Johnny joints at the frame and precision joints at the axle. Also I moved the "Y" arm farther apart. Stock was 5.5" and I spread them to 10 " with bracked modification. I also moved the shock mount from the side of the bracket to the top of the bracket and reinforced the bracket. THis corrected the clearance problem I had with the D60 high steer arm and leveled the jeep where it should be. Previously I had to really crank down on the adjustalbe coilovers to make the jeep level and was then left with just 3" of down travel while the rear had a little more than half the travel in the downward direction. I backed off on the front coil adjusters and now have 3" up travel front and rear. I've been out 3 hard days of wheeling including Big Dogs in Winchester and beat the snot out of it without breakage. Now I'm happy.

[COVEJEEPSXJ]

I wheeled with the RK guys last weekend and from what I saw from them on the trail they are Stand Up Guys. They were in a YJ with the coilover kit and I was extremely impressed. I will say that they did have limiting straps on all four corners. But I would never even think about running coilovers without limiting them. Give the guys a chance to make things right, they pulled line, spotted and helped extract a TJ from the trail for people with nothing RK on their rigs, so I can only think how helpful they must be to their own customers.
Just my 2 cents, coming from an XJ owner with no afliliation to RK or RK parts on my rig, just impressed with RK owners and designers and their willingness to wheel and assist other wheelers.

[Schmozilla]

Schmolliza Who are you and what are you talking about?

Wow, I can't believe you guys actually got a name on this board, is this Jeremy?...:laughing: . I bought a kit from yall about 3 years ago, when you still ran the short torque arm in the front that failed by lack of design. I rolled my jeep in the street nearly killing one of my best friends because when I put on brakes the torque arm rolled over and snapped off, you sent me new stuff with a better design, so im not complaining about customer service.

I can’t keep a Krawler joint in one piece to save my life. When they bust apart the added movement of the link provides enough acceleration to Waller out the hole in the brackets and break bolts.

Weld in rear truss??? I have pulled the top part of the truss 4 inches forward for its original position, it actually twisted at the base and bowed forward. This truss is actually less than a year old and twisted from only 2 days in Moab.

Wana talk geometry? I plugged in all the numbers...its around 230% AS!!! With 13 degrees of roll steer!

This picture! That’s all from wheel hop from mal engineered suspension geometry. It actually wheel hopped 2 feet into the air! But I did get a free subscription to Crawl for the pic :grinpimp:
http://www.geocities.com/cjames63/moab12.JPG


If I have learned anything from Rock Krawler it's, If you want it done right DO IT YOURSELF... which is exactly what I am doing here in about 2 months... I will be doing a full build write up on:
How to properly design a truss
How to properly design a 4 link suspension
What is Anti-Squat and what is right for my rig?(90-120, depending on your taste) NOT 230!
What a real suspension joint looks like... heres a sneak peak!
http://www.geocities.com/cjames63/joint.JPG
:smokin:

Damn I hope I don't catch too much shit for flaming in the noob section :flipoff2:

[Benzz0]

What do you expect from a out of the box coilover setup :p

sorry you had so much trouble with it but for the money or even going into the coilover route I would trust someone else besides RK to perform!

For the $3K+ of that kit you have had a decent Clayton or Fab'ed setup that would beat the shit out of the RK kit...


meh...

[bnine]

For the $3K+ of that kit you have had a decent Clayton or Fab'ed setup that would beat the shit out of the RK kit...


meh...

Maybe thats what you should do. Fab up long arm coilover kits for people for 3k and get rich.:shaking: :shaking:

With coilovers costing 500 a corner you are at 2k

Similar to Claytons set up? Ok. 15 johny joints, 600$

20 feet of 2 inch .250 DoM 168$

Still havnt done bracketry, track bar, hardware, paint, or welding supplies.

I am building my own, and I'll still spend more then 3000$ Doing it for someone else from scratch like that, I'd charge double, to triple what Im paying for my own.

3k is doesnt sound to bad when you start to add it up. If it takes a few more bucks to get working to your liking, or to fit your needs, thats not to bad.

I've never seen a kit I was happy with out of the box that couldnt be improved apon. RK, or anyone else.

[Schmozilla]

Ben, maby your right... I shouldnt have expected much else from a 3000 dollar suspention... good coils and shocks cost over 2000 alone! It worked for me decently, but no one I know has had as much trouble as I have with there suspentions, and I'm not THAT hard on it. IMHO, there are two major downfalls to the kit which could be fixed by RK and would make the kit MUCH more reliable and desireable to own...

First, The front suspension only has one torque arm controling breaking and acceration forces of the axle and they only have about 5 inches of vertical seperation. My suggestion would be to get more vertical seperation between the two points, about 7.5 to 8 inches. Using two arms would be ideal for force distrobution but would hender flex, increasing the moments for which the arms control the rotation forces is the answer. This is where I am breaking the most bolts and dammaging the most brackets, the moment of the torque arm is too small IMO. It is just too much force for the current layout and could be fixed by RK fairly easily.

Secondly, The suspension geometry in the rear. It is WAY WAY WAY to high, asside from it hendering performance it is puttin unneeded stress on the upper links. When torque is applied to the axle the lower links are compressed and the upper links are put in tension, depending on the geometry of the links the axle will eaither squat or hop creating weight transfer and all kinds of bull shit that I dont want to go into. With the current geometry the vehical hops tremendusly putting an ungodly amout of force on the upper link mounting locations. This has ultimatlely lead to the deformations of all 4 upper link mounts and a few destroyed lower joints. How can you fix it?? Move the lower axle mounting point up about 1 inch, move the upper link mounting point down about .5 inch, more the upper frame mounting point up about 4 inches(it will fit under the body with no modification). You have now brought your AS numbers down to a reasonable 135 ish range, and greatly reduced the amount of extra stress on suspention components that comes with high AS. The kit will perform better and the components will last longer.

no hard fealings,

Schmozilla

[KiGrind]

http://www.geocities.com/cjames63/build3.JPG]

Dude, I don't know shit, but I've seen it miilions of times before... but isn't the front supposed to move strait up and down to preserve the proper caster angle....... and I don't know shit... but that DOES NOT... look like it would from here... from a simple observation of the coilover mounted on what looks like where the stock shock mounts might have been??.... on a stretched wheelbase??


WTF, please school me.

[KiGrind]

And I just wonderin if you stuck the long arm kit attached to the stock short arm factory points too.. maybe? I'm just wondering. Hard to tell in photo even thought its a pretty good quality for a camera phone.

[Schmozilla]

there kit is welded in to a tee per the instructions, and NO this type of suspention does not maintain caster through the suspention cycle. Caster at any other point except ride height really is not that important. It will change positive to negitive over a full extention to compression, that is the main reason for not using two torque arms in this type of suspension, they would be constantly fighing each other for control over caster.

[Schmozilla]

If you cant tell from the picture, the frame is sittin on stands and the suspention is at full droop :shaking:

[KiGrind]

If you cant tell from the picture, the frame is sittin on stands and the suspention is at full droop :shaking:


I seen that, and thats what makes the whole thing look bad trying to imagin that axel going up and that shock being at such an angle.

[Schmozilla]

I seen that, and thats what makes the whole thing look bad trying to imagin that axel going up and that shock being at such an angle.

Whats wrong with angle?
With This type of 3 link the axle cycle path is concentric(travels in a circular arc with a single foci) as it cycles it has an angular velocity(omega).The stretch was designed to put the shock angle paralell to the axles angular acceleration at ride height giving it the most leverage durring the suspention cycle.

The shock angle is mo betta that sitting orthogonal to the ground.


just for some info:

On a leaf spring vehical the axles cycle in a parabolic Path(eliptic with 2 foci) so the best shock angle is straight up and down, as there is really no perfect shock placement, just some better than others.