Formula Toy Rules

[desertoy]

Just so everyone is clear. The Formula Toy class is a drivers class. It is not a contest to see who can manipulate or over interperate the letter of the written rules. So before someone gets their feelings hurt cause they built an F-toy with some wacked out modification and it get disallowed, please remember this is a "drivers class".

[Brian Ellinger]

John-

Im playing devils advocate on these rules for good reason. Not everyone who builds is on pirate at all, so they will eventually do things that violate the planned general build of these. They are going to be royaly pissed, and the rules will not say anything about their build being illegal. Thats going to cause some interesting times at a comp. The biggest thing I see is the frame rule. Obviously, from the the other thread started, it is unclear about whether dovetailing the frame is allowed. This person could have just built it, and nothing in the rules says he cant do that. Fortunately for him, and the class, he asked. Not everyone will. This class is growing, and rapidly. These things need addressed before it becomes a BIG problem.

That is why Im being a real thorn in your side on the letter of the rules. Its alos why Im more than happy to help rewrite the rules to much more detail so it is clear what is, and what is not allowed.

[Air Ride]

The rules don't need to be rewritten, there just needs to be a statement added
"Only modification specified in the rules will be allowed"

[SanDiegoCJ]

D Toy, clean out your BOX. :flipoff2:

[desertoy]

John-

Im playing devils advocate on these rules for good reason. Not everyone who builds is on pirate at all, so they will eventually do things that violate the planned general build of these. They are going to be royaly pissed, and the rules will not say anything about their build being illegal. Thats going to cause some interesting times at a comp. The biggest thing I see is the frame rule. Obviously, from the the other thread started, it is unclear about whether dovetailing the frame is allowed. This person could have just built it, and nothing in the rules says he cant do that. Fortunately for him, and the class, he asked. Not everyone will. This class is growing, and rapidly. These things need addressed before it becomes a BIG problem.

That is why Im being a real thorn in your side on the letter of the rules. Its alos why Im more than happy to help rewrite the rules to much more detail so it is clear what is, and what is not allowed.

Thanks for your interest Brian. I think the BOD are trying to get around having a 50 page rule book. How about adding one rule that states something like this:

"Creative thinking is encouraged but if it doesn't specifically allow it in the rule book, assume that it is not allowed. Consult the Board of Directors with questions."

[desertoy]

D Toy, clean out your BOX. :flipoff2:

Done :D

[Brian Ellinger]

Thanks for your interest Brian. I think the BOD are trying to get around having a 50 page rule book. How about adding one rule that states something like this:

"Creative thinking is encouraged but if it doesn't specifically allow it in the rule book, assume that it is not allowed. Consult the Board of Directors with questions."

That does work, sort of. If Im thinking of something, I have to clear it with the board. Now assume I dont even know of PBB (I live in a shoebox) Who is this Board, and how do I get a hold of them? Plus I now have to divulge my secretsof my build to others that are currently winning in this class.

[Brian Ellinger]

The rules don't need to be rewritten, there just needs to be a statement added
"Only modification specified in the rules will be allowed"

Okay, so I want to replace the stock crossmembers in my ftoy, and eliminate some as well. That is not allowed in the rules, but is an approved practice.

[desertoy]

That does work, sort of. If Im thinking of something, I have to clear it with the board. Now assume I dont even know of PBB (I live in a shoebox) Who is this Board, and how do I get a hold of them? Plus I now have to divulge my secretsof my build to others that are currently winning in this class.

You have to be able to access the internet to get to the rules. The rules can (or do) have a link on them.
As far a divulging secerets. There is no secerets in building a Formula toy chasis. It is a drivers class.

[Nissan Recovery Team]

I think a simple start to this would be to have a comprehensive website (formulatoy.com) that has current and updated info like...the W.E.Rock Rules or whatever sanctioning body should be available with a link or hosting the file itself.

Although not everyone is on PBB, they should at a minimum be able to access the Ftoy site and it shouldn't be linked or confused with this BBS. It should contain all the info needed right there without having to search this board.

M2C

[a2b]

i think brian is right. i have been dreading the day when somene shows up and has done something we all know is illegal but the rules dont say so. also, i am dreading the day when someone shows up with a ftoy that he built and copied mikes design. if mike isnt there with his database, how do i know he didnt buy it from him? these chassis were never marked with plates or anything. that will eventually happen when the class gets bigger.

i think mike is right too. you dont have to add a bunch of specific rules, just a few disclaimers...

[surveyboy]

i think brian is right. i have been dreading the day when somene shows up and has done something we all know is illegal but the rules dont say so. also, i am dreading the day when someone shows up with a ftoy that he built and copied mikes design. if mike isnt there with his database, how do i know he didnt buy it from him? these chassis were never marked with plates or anything. that will eventually happen when the class gets bigger.

i think mike is right too. you dont have to add a bunch of specific rules, just a few disclaimers...
I know theres a bunch of rigs already out there, but to make the plates now and get them to the guys who have already bought rigs wouldn't be hard, and then just include them on all the new ones too.

[Brian Ellinger]

i think brian is right. i have been dreading the day when somene shows up and has done something we all know is illegal but the rules dont say so. also, i am dreading the day when someone shows up with a ftoy that he built and copied mikes design. if mike isnt there with his database, how do i know he didnt buy it from him? these chassis were never marked with plates or anything. that will eventually happen when the class gets bigger.

i think mike is right too. you dont have to add a bunch of specific rules, just a few disclaimers...

Believe it or not Im not trying to be a royal PITA. I just see some serious loopholes out there. We'll be building ours (dont know #) within the intent and plan of the rules, but there are plenty of things I would like to do (dovetail the rear frame rails) that is not intented to be legal, but is not currently excluded. Writing up some rules governing the frame would be easy enough, especially knowing what you are wanting to allow (notching for steering clearance) and not allow (dovetailing, narrowing, shaving)

[Chris Geiger]

Believe it or not Im not trying to be a royal PITA. I just see some serious loopholes out there. We'll be building ours (dont know #) within the intent and plan of the rules, but there are plenty of things I would like to do (dovetail the rear frame rails) that is not intented to be legal, but is not currently excluded. Writing up some rules governing the frame would be easy enough, especially knowing what you are wanting to allow (notching for steering clearance) and not allow (dovetailing, narrowing, shaving)

You can modify or fully replace the frame rails but the springs needed to be 29" apart front and rear. Replacment frame rails should be of similar material to stock. You can't replace the frame with 1.5" tubing.

[Chris Geiger]

A good example is adding a torque rod or inboarding the rear springs. These don’t cost much but really help the rig get it on the trail.

[Wilson]

You can modify or fully replace the frame rails but the springs needed to be 29" apart front and rear. Replacment frame rails should be of similar material to stock. You can't replace the frame with 1.5" tubing.


Now this doesn't sound right to me and for several reasons. Are you saying someone could build a frame out of box-style tubing and as long as the axle perch width is 29" F/R it's ok? I'm pretty sure that it is not the intent to allow custom frames, especially as a structural aprt since competitiors are nto allowed to build their own chasis. I think it should eb written something like this:

Stock Toyota truck or 4 runner frame rails must be used, in stock fashion. Factory crossmembers may be modified or replaced to allow clearance for steering, driveliens, etc.

Also, something that has crossed my mind is that as these rigs continue to get used and abused people will (if they haven't already) begin to replace stock chasis tubes. It's the nature of the sport, all comp rigs with a couple of years of use under their belts have tube "patches" in them. Playing devil's advocate here, I can see some of these weekend warrior types that want to bend their own chassis, making a fuss out of this. Since people will be rebuilding their own chassis (no longer cert. manufacturer welds/bends)

[a2b]

Stock Toyota truck or 4 runner frame rails must be used, in stock fashion. Factory crossmembers may be modified or replaced to allow clearance for steering, driveliens, etc.

sounds good. i think it should be something like that. i dont agree in making your own frame.


Also, something that has crossed my mind is that as these rigs continue to get used and abused people will (if they haven't already) begin to replace stock chasis tubes. It's the nature of the sport, all comp rigs with a couple of years of use under their belts have tube "patches" in them. Playing devil's advocate here, I can see some of these weekend warrior types that want to bend their own chassis, making a fuss out of this. Since people will be rebuilding their own chassis (no longer cert. manufacturer welds/bends)


ya i know. that came to my mind about a year ago. its another discrempency. i cant build my own chassis, but i can replace the tubing when it gets bent in really hard ??....just like my pass A pillar. or matt's chassis is pretty bent after werock.

[Scott@Rockstomper]

I have no proverbial horse in this race, but it's interesting to me nonetheless; I'm not sure why, maybe I just like nitpicking rules and trying to find ways to bend them old-school-Nascar-style ("it's not against the rules till they catch you doing it").

I can build my own chassis (not technically within the rules, but I physically can) and if anybody questions it, all I have to say is "I dunno anything about it, I bought it used from a guy who had it lying around and never did anything with it" and while Mike's database may be all-encompassing now, and adequate to "catch" me at that now, in another year or two, there's just no way he'll be able to track every used sale of his chassis, every reconstruction of them, etc.

I think allowing extensive modification to the frame, is a slippery slope. Allowing replacement of rails with other-than-stock-Toyota rails is really dangerous to consistency; if I want to push things there, all I have to do is claim to have built it once on a Toy frame, torn the rear spring hangers out of the rails, and started over with my own frame, that might only vaguely line up with the Toy frame.

I see the point that this is a drivers' class, but it's also (currently) the class where a really kickass driver and spotter team stand the best chances of making money in this sport; with money, comes a stronger and stronger tendency to push the limits in order to win.

I don't think rules need vastly changed. I do think a number of them need clarified.

With incremental tubing replacement having to happen for safety's sake, I think Ftoy chassis layout needs to simply follow a template. If you have one, you have that template; you may replace tubes in it, but it has to still match the template. It's up to the tech-inspectors to measure it dimensionally to ensure that it matches the template, if there's any doubt. If yours is so damaged that you can't pull critical dimensions off of it to repair it, either (a) take it to Mike and pay him to fix it, or (b) borrow somebody else's chassis to pull those dimensions. I don't really think much (if anything) needs to change in the rulebook in this regard, although "no alteration to Ftoy basic chassis layout (hood, door, bed and roof surrounds, plus pillars) will be permitted" would go a long way towards making sure somebody doesn't rework their wheel arches or the like.

On to the frame:
There is no current spec for where the frame has to be, front to back, under the chassis. Nor is there a spec for how much of the frame you have to keep. Engine setback/lowering is measured off of... the stock motor mounts on the frame? But if I can put the frame anywhere, the engine setback rule is nearly meaningless too (IMHO).

If you spec that the front of the frame must be within a certain distance of a line dropped plumb off of the front of the hood surround (not the grille surround, as that was stated to me as being non-fixed) you improve things vastly.

Has anybody yet cut off the front of the frame? If not, maybe the thing to do is to say "no cutting off the front of the frame; cutting the rear to no shorter than (the length of the Ftoy chassis, X inches less than the Ftoy length, Y inches, etc.) is permitted"

If you want to specify that everybody build identical or near-identical, then specify that the frontmost frame crossmember must be within X many inches of that plumb line off the front edge of the hood surround, the frame must be in its normal Toyota orientation, narrowing the frame is not permitted, and length must be a certain minimum.

Since V6 frames and 4cylinder frames might have different engine mount locations, I would suggest that engine location be specified as a distance from the hood surround to the front of the valvecover (easy to measure, standard) horizontally, and from a level line across the hood, to crank centerline at the front of the engine.

Notching the frame for steering clearance, spring hangers, shock mounts, etc., I see no problem with, but specify that the frame contour must be retained, that if I cut the bottom out for a spring hanger, I have to leave the top unmolested through that area in the stock shape. Maybe the way to phrase that is "notching for clearance and frenching spring hangers is permitted, but no more than 60% of any one dimension of the framerail may be removed in any given notch area" so basically, I can notch/french to just past the halfway point vertically or horizontally, but I can't cut a gap into my frame and call it steering clearance.

If I shouldn't be poking around at you guys, just tell me to STFU and I will. :)

[Tim Florian]

This class is supposed to be a basic budget class, where the driver wins, not the rig. It seems to be getting away from that pretty quickly. Which sucks in my opinion.

[Heywood]

If a rig doesnt meet the specs it can allways run exibition:flipoff2:

No one has had to yet.

I would like to hear some of these ideas, maybe some you dont plan on using,
that would acutually make a rig superior than the current ones.

[a2b]

I have no proverbial horse in this race, but it's interesting to me nonetheless; I'm not sure why, maybe I just like nitpicking rules and trying to find ways to bend them old-school-Nascar-style ("it's not against the rules till they catch you doing it").

I can build my own chassis (not technically within the rules, but I physically can) and if anybody questions it, all I have to say is "I dunno anything about it, I bought it used from a guy who had it lying around and never did anything with it" and while Mike's database may be all-encompassing now, and adequate to "catch" me at that now, in another year or two, there's just no way he'll be able to track every used sale of his chassis, every reconstruction of them, etc.

I think allowing extensive modification to the frame, is a slippery slope. Allowing replacement of rails with other-than-stock-Toyota rails is really dangerous to consistency; if I want to push things there, all I have to do is claim to have built it once on a Toy frame, torn the rear spring hangers out of the rails, and started over with my own frame, that might only vaguely line up with the Toy frame.

I see the point that this is a drivers' class, but it's also (currently) the class where a really kickass driver and spotter team stand the best chances of making money in this sport; with money, comes a stronger and stronger tendency to push the limits in order to win.

I don't think rules need vastly changed. I do think a number of them need clarified.

With incremental tubing replacement having to happen for safety's sake, I think Ftoy chassis layout needs to simply follow a template. If you have one, you have that template; you may replace tubes in it, but it has to still match the template. It's up to the tech-inspectors to measure it dimensionally to ensure that it matches the template, if there's any doubt. If yours is so damaged that you can't pull critical dimensions off of it to repair it, either (a) take it to Mike and pay him to fix it, or (b) borrow somebody else's chassis to pull those dimensions. I don't really think much (if anything) needs to change in the rulebook in this regard, although "no alteration to Ftoy basic chassis layout (hood, door, bed and roof surrounds, plus pillars) will be permitted" would go a long way towards making sure somebody doesn't rework their wheel arches or the like.

On to the frame:
There is no current spec for where the frame has to be, front to back, under the chassis. Nor is there a spec for how much of the frame you have to keep. Engine setback/lowering is measured off of... the stock motor mounts on the frame? But if I can put the frame anywhere, the engine setback rule is nearly meaningless too (IMHO).

If you spec that the front of the frame must be within a certain distance of a line dropped plumb off of the front of the hood surround (not the grille surround, as that was stated to me as being non-fixed) you improve things vastly.

Has anybody yet cut off the front of the frame? If not, maybe the thing to do is to say "no cutting off the front of the frame; cutting the rear to no shorter than (the length of the Ftoy chassis, X inches less than the Ftoy length, Y inches, etc.) is permitted"

If you want to specify that everybody build identical or near-identical, then specify that the frontmost frame crossmember must be within X many inches of that plumb line off the front edge of the hood surround, the frame must be in its normal Toyota orientation, narrowing the frame is not permitted, and length must be a certain minimum.

Since V6 frames and 4cylinder frames might have different engine mount locations, I would suggest that engine location be specified as a distance from the hood surround to the front of the valvecover (easy to measure, standard) horizontally, and from a level line across the hood, to crank centerline at the front of the engine.

Notching the frame for steering clearance, spring hangers, shock mounts, etc., I see no problem with, but specify that the frame contour must be retained, that if I cut the bottom out for a spring hanger, I have to leave the top unmolested through that area in the stock shape. Maybe the way to phrase that is "notching for clearance and frenching spring hangers is permitted, but no more than 60% of any one dimension of the framerail may be removed in any given notch area" so basically, I can notch/french to just past the halfway point vertically or horizontally, but I can't cut a gap into my frame and call it steering clearance.

If I shouldn't be poking around at you guys, just tell me to STFU and I will. :)


what he said. i thought about all this when i built mine. it doesnt take a genius to realize that if the class grows into a nation wide big thing. under the current system, you can track these chassis's and where they are going. we cant track people who have replaced their tubes. i have wanted rules about the frames from the get go. when i went to put my motor in, i saw all the dsicrempencies.
and no one here is saying chagne the rules, just clarirty would be nice.

[a2b]

This class is supposed to be a basic budget class, where the driver wins, not the rig. It seems to be getting away from that pretty quickly. Which sucks in my opinion.

:confused:

[a2b]

I would like to hear some of these ideas, maybe some you dont plan on using,
that would acutually make a rig superior than the current ones.


he didnt say he had secrets. but if so i would like to hear them to:D

[rlwjaw]

This class is supposed to be a basic budget class, where the driver wins, not the rig. It seems to be getting away from that pretty quickly. Which sucks in my opinion.
I have been reading these posts and I have to agree. I was about to order a chassis but I think I will not untill things are worked out. The spirit seems to have been lost in favor of modification just for the sake of modification. If it is going to be a drivers class then make the vehicles even so the driver is the measure of achievement , not the vehicle.

[a2b]

I have been reading these posts and I have to agree. I was about to order a chassis but I think I will not untill things are worked out. The spirit seems to have been lost in favor of modification just for the sake of modification. .


things are worked out. you act is if we are inventing the class. the post have been related on some clarifications of rules, not new ones. no spirit has been lost, and what modification? and why you do you care who mods what? all ftoys are the same within reason.


If it is going to be a drivers class then make the vehicles even so the driver is the measure of achievement , not the vehicle.

are you kidding? "make the vehicles even"? as if its not now? are you aware that we are in a 3rd season of ftoys. there is no more "make". everything is done. the class cant slip into "a non drivers class" if nothing is changing. its the same as it was in the beginning. the last ftoy that won the last comp, is exact same that competed in the first comp 3 years ago.:shaking:

[Mustard Dog]

maybe I just like nitpicking rules and trying to find ways to bend them old-school-Nascar-style ("it's not against the rules till they catch you doing it").




I think that statement right there shows that you're missing the entire 'spirit' of this class. F-Toy is not a cut throat, super competitive class like the rest have become. F-Toy is all about coming out and having a good time with your buds, with a few cones thrown in. How many other classes do you see the competitors discussing the best lines for the upcoming course together? Or giving your competition your spare third so they can keep running?

By design this class is made to be low key and fun. As soon as people start to make the F-Toy version of 'Tiny' they've completely lost touch with what this is all about.

[Scout Dude]

I think that statement right there shows that you're missing the entire 'spirit' of this class. F-Toy is not a cut throat, super competitive class like the rest have become. F-Toy is all about coming out and having a good time with your buds, with a few cones thrown in. How many other classes do you see the competitors discussing the best lines for the upcoming course together? Or giving your competition your spare third so they can keep running?

By design this class is made to be low key and fun. As soon as people start to make the F-Toy version of 'Tiny' they've completely lost touch with what this is all about.


Isn't a competition about being competitive?
I discuss lines with other competitors, share parts with other competitors, but I'd still use the rules to my advantage and would find every fawking loophole I could to give myself the advantage. It's really the rules that need to control this, and not rely on a person to see the "Spirit" of the class.

[Tim Florian]

I think that statement right there shows that you're missing the entire 'spirit' of this class. F-Toy is not a cut throat, super competitive class like the rest have become. F-Toy is all about coming out and having a good time with your buds, with a few cones thrown in. How many other classes do you see the competitors discussing the best lines for the upcoming course together? Or giving your competition your spare third so they can keep running?

By design this class is made to be low key and fun. As soon as people start to make the F-Toy version of 'Tiny' they've completely lost touch with what this is all about.


Exactly!!!! The current problem (like in this thread) is people trying to fawk with the class with the attitude that if the rules don't say it then we're gonna take advantage. The spirit and simplicity is getting lost at this point.

[Scott@Rockstomper]

Just to restate, I'm not going to build an Ftoy anytime soon; I have my hands full already with running my existing Unlimited rig.

If I were looking to build beyond the spirit but not the letter of the rules, I would (note that some of this is not illegal):

Mount the frame rearward enough to slide the engine back/down far enough to make the weight bias fairly neutral and low
Clock the transfer case for ground clearance
Slide the seats forward enough to clear the t-case and get better visibility
Straighten the framerails for better rear tire clearance
ARB's both ends
Lay radiator down for better visibility
Mount steering box optimally for steering geometry--cut away major chunks of frame if necessary to allow this
Dual master cylinders (one front, one rear) on dual pedals
Monstrosity ram assist, probably with feedback delete
Automatic with crawler box, manual valvebody, and custom converter
Front torque rod, rear wrap bar
Red label Krawlers or equivalent in 36-37" size
Axlehousings shaved and trimmed as far as possible for clearance and steer angle
Twinstick and driveshaft disconnect so I can dig front or rear

I've got a second window open on the Ftoy rule page right now; none of this is actually currently against the published rules, but much of it is counter to the spirit of the class or what I've been told is "not allowed".

Edit: MD, I'm not planning on doing this. I'm only even here making the point of "somebody's going to", and somebody's going to get their panties in a bunch over "that's not what suchandsuch says" or "that's not the spirit of..." Nascar started out good-ol-boys racing for bragging rights, as did pretty much every other racing sanctioning body out there. If this is intended to stay good-ol-boys just playing around, that's fine, but if anybody wants to promote Ftoy as a legitimate motorsport, it won't get there on "everybody knows that's not the intent".

[a2b]

ya i understand the spirt thing. but i dont think they are fawking with the class in this thread. first off, you cant say, all people who have ftoy must have the ftoy spirit.

there is going to be joes who show up and arent friendly. they will not have the spirit and they wont have as good as time as we will.

but nevertheless, they will be there. i think brian is saying, lets make sure that the rules are complete just for the persons who dont have the spirit. they are the ones who are going to try to bend rules or find loop holes.


yall arent the ones who will be the person that has to tell someone that they cant compete.. I AM! so when i have someone who screws with their frame, and they tell me its not in the rule book, they are correct. what the hell am i supposed to do. and you want me to tell them they cant compete, becuase "they built it wrong because they dont have the spirit"?

now thats just silly!

and i think that will help everyone in this thread that has an opinion. before you say anything else, YOU put yourself in the tech inspectors shoes. think about it, you be the one to tell someone they cant compete after they spent 6 months and 10 grand and took a day off to get there and 300 bucks in gas and lodging.

and this person you are telling, isnt on the interent, doesnt know pirate. his kid printed him out the rules and he posted them in his garage. he doesnt know us, he doesnt know anyone who has an ftoy. and he is an competitive ass who doesnt have this beloved spirit that everyone loves to talk about.

its the lowest common denominator, thats who you have to write complete rules for.

i dont understand how everyone gets their panties in a wad over lil crap.:rolleyes:

[Tim Florian]

So what do ya do about the guy that lives in a cave and started his build 5 months ago when his kid printed the old rules? He's still gonna show up and give you problems.

I'll butt out after this but I don't really think it's Joe garage/cave builder you need to worry about, it's the competive guys that see the money building in the class and want a peice so they look for the holes, they still will after you ammend the rules.

[a2b]

So what do ya do about the guy that lives in a cave and started his build 5 months ago when his kid printed the old rules? He's still gonna show up and give you problems.

I'll butt out after this but I don't really think it's Joe garage/cave builder you need to worry about, it's the competive guys that see the money building in the class and want a peice so they look for the holes, they still will after you ammend the rules.

how is the rules from 5 months ago going to give us trouble?


i am not worried that some joe will show up, but thinking that he isnt out there is thinking too small. the plan is for the class to be huge, so we have to think huge and get prepared for everyone. and we all know that these competitive guys you speak of will eventually show up. so i ask you, what should we do about it when they show you (you being the tech inpector) that they chopped out the rear of the frame. what are you going to do? what are you going to say? what action will you do?

tell him that they should of known better, they should have a ftoy spirit? thats all i am hearing from this thread. and you cant tell them that they cant compete because you dont have anything on paper that says they cant. so what is the plan of action?

i feel like this thread is like those bumper stickers "war is not the answer". its just comments and comments. no solutions, just a bunch of people runnig around offering no help.

what is the answer then? i dont want to hear negative opinoins. i want to hear solutions.

i want to hear answers and ideas to secnarios that will happen as this class grows? the same thing brian asked for at the begginning of this thread and was promplty advised about the ftoy spirit.:laughing: because that just solves all our problems:laughing:

[Scott@Rockstomper]

I don't really think it's Joe garage/cave builder you need to worry about, it's the competive guys that see the money building in the class and want a peice so they look for the holes, they still will after you ammend the rules.

My point exactly; I'm not after changing the spirit of the class, but rather closing up (what I think are) a bunch of loopholes. Much less room for anybody to get butthurt about stuff, if the spirit and the letter, are well aligned. :)

[Tim Florian]

how is the rules from 5 months ago going to give us trouble?


i am not worried that some joe will show up, but thinking that he isnt out there is thinking too small. the plan is for the class to be huge, so we have to think huge and get prepared for everyone. and we all know that these competitive guys you speak of will eventually show up. so i ask you, what should we do about it when they show you (you being the tech inpector) that they chopped out the rear of the frame. what are you going to do? what are you going to say? what action will you do?

tell him that they should of known better, they should have a ftoy spirit? thats all i am hearing from this thread. and you cant tell them that they cant compete because you dont have anything on paper that says they cant. so what is the plan of action?

i feel like this thread is like those bumper stickers "war is not the answer". its just comments and comments. no solutions, just a bunch of people runnig around offering no help.

what is the answer then? i dont want to hear negative opinoins. i want to hear solutions.

i want to hear answers and ideas to secnarios that will happen as this class grows? the same thing brian asked for at the begginning of this thread and was promplty advised about the ftoy spirit.:laughing: because that just solves all our problems:laughing:


The only answer for you, thinking of it the way your presenting it is, a 50 page rule book, cuz anything less will always leave room for this kind of crap.

[a2b]

The only answer for you, thinking of it the way your presenting it is, a 50 page rule book, cuz anything less will always leave room for this kind of crap.

thats not a solution. whats on the 50 pages? they already said, that we should make a general statement about not modifying frame. thats takes 1 line mabey 2. how many lines are on a page? 30 mabey? so lets say 1/15th of a page for the frame rule. what else do you have in mind for the 49.80 pages?

BTW, for those you that keep up, nascar changes their rule book about every year. somtimes right in the middle of the season. small or big, they get changed. its very normal to have to ammend the rules, simply because its so hard to think of every scenario that will happen before it happens.

all i see is people getting upset because brian wants us to write down a rule that says we cant chop the frame up. the funny thing is, this is alreay a rule, but not written down yet. how is this 50 pages of rules or losing the spirit? he didnt ask for a new rule. i think its rediculous to have rules that arent written down on the rule page.

anyone else with solutions?

[Heywood]

(1) expanded on the frame rule in the rules.

(2) let this thread die


As far as I know the desicion at comps wether someone was legal or gonna get penalized was up to a vote by the BOD, or all the competitors there.
So you dont have to be the bad guy Hobbie. Just the messenger. I dont think its your responsibilty
or that you had the authority to make a call like that.

[Tim Florian]

anyone else with solutions?

Yeah take a day off and do something fun, I think you've worked to much this weekend.:flipoff2:

[a2b]

(1) expanded on the frame rule in the rules.

(2) let this thread die


As far as I know the desicion at comps wether someone was legal or gonna get penalized was up to a vote by the BOD, or all the competitors there.
So you dont have to be the bad guy Hobbie. Just the messenger. I dont think its your responsibilty
or that you had the authority to make a call like that.


just the messenger hugh?

whats the phrase, "dont shoot the messenger". tell you what, you be the messenger:flipoff2:

[a2b]

Yeah take a day off and do something fun, I think you've worked to much this weekend.:flipoff2:

i am still at work now, drinking nonetheless cuz i am pissed i am at work:D how come i drink the most when i am working:shaking: doesnt make sense:confused:

[Tim Florian]

i am still at work now, drinking nonetheless cuz i am pissed i am at work:D


That explains alot. Phew:laughing:

[Heywood]

i am still at work now, drinking nonetheless cuz i am pissed i am at work:D how come i drink the most when i am working:shaking: doesnt make sense:confused:


Let me guess, peach Bartles and James wine coolers?:flipoff2:

[a2b]

Let me guess, peach Bartles and James wine coolers?:flipoff2:

:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

since i came in on a sunday. the supervisor bought me a 12 pack of tecate. he drank 1 and gave me the rest. its kind of a understanding i have going with him. when i bail him out, he buys me beer for the shift:laughing:



oh and get this. i hate working here! i am working on a dam scene where folks dicuss who they would rather do. right now its, cameron diaz, drew barrymore, or lucy lou.

all those guys chose cameron diaz! are you kidding me! she is ugly!!!!!!!!!!!!! i would do lucy lou in a heart beat over the other 2. who would yall choose:D

oh btw, did you get ahold of dan? if not, jesse is going to come get by bellfields. and did you go riding this morning? i am sure doctor would approve, lol

[Im4yotas]

As far as I know the desicion at comps wether someone was legal or gonna get penalized was up to a vote by the BOD, or all the competitors there.
So you dont have to be the bad guy Hobbie. Just the messenger. I dont think its your responsibilty
or that you had the authority to make a call like that.


That didn't work too well from what I remember. 1st event last season. Jesse didn't comply with some of the rules. Everyone voted to have him run exhibition, no points. In the end, he came in 1st place for the event. Nobody wanted to be a bad guy then, either, and somehow reversed our original decision.


As for solutions...some have already been presented. Frame mods & motor placement - just filling loopholes, right. I'm pretty sure that the entire reason for the BOD is to solve just these kinds of problems. So those that volunteered for the BOD need to buck up and hash it out. It's obvious that some other people are willing to help and I suggest you take them up on that;)

And on that 60% through the frame, I would rather see around 90%.
Sean's is already like this, and the shock still hit.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=190202&d=1117694111

[Nissan Recovery Team]

Scott,

Right click and save on that post. Your the first person I've seen actually illustrate how the current rules can be interpreted.

Had a chance to talk with Camo at Globe and he described how he thought of the class being a spec class ex desert racer. It would make sense to me that if you have more restrictions (guidelines) to build from it makes the vehicles more similiar and minimizes the chances of someone building something way out of the "spirit".

How many of the Ftoys actually passed Tech at W.E.Rock? Should rules for Ftoy be modeled after some of the rules already written for the other classes?

I see this as a problem. If the Ftoys are gonna run with ProRock, W.E.Rock (UROC ever? ) then how are you going to accomplish this without more rules for the build? Or are they gonna forgoe their own rules because the Ftoys have their own?

This class is going to grow and there will be people with varied budgets, tools, and skills that will want to join in. There has to be a comprehensive set of rules that covers everything or threads like this will never go away.

M2C

[Heywood]

That didn't work too well from what I remember. 1st event last season. Jesse didn't comply with some of the rules. Everyone voted to have him run exhibition, no points. In the end, he came in 1st place for the event. Nobody wanted to be a bad guy then, either, and somehow reversed our original decision.


As for solutions...some have already been presented. Frame mods & motor placement - just filling loopholes, right. I'm pretty sure that the entire reason for the BOD is to solve just these kinds of problems. So those that volunteered for the BOD need to buck up and hash it out. It's obvious that some other people are willing to help and I suggest you take them up on that;)

And on that 60% through the frame, I would rather see around 90%.
Sean's is already like this, and the shock still hit.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=190202&d=1117694111


As far as that comp with with Jesse, there was alot of other variables that caused the confusion at that comp. There was no BOD, and there was 2 people running it, saying different things.

Im all for filling loopholes if it actually helps. It needs to be done right. Im concerned there will still be loopholes and stuff like that notching for shock would somehow be illegal and someone with only 60% of the frame for the whole lenght would be legal.

[Brian Ellinger]

As far as that comp with with Jesse, there was alot of other variables that caused the confusion at that comp. There was no BOD, and there was 2 people running it, saying different things.

Im all for filling loopholes if it actually helps. It needs to be done right. Im concerned there will still be loopholes and stuff like that notching for shock would somehow be illegal and someone with only 60% of the frame for the whole lenght would be legal.

Wow, Im really looking like a jerk now!

The pic of Sean's frame is perfect. This is exactly what were thinking of doing on ours... can we or not. Even in this thread it seems up in the air.

Im excited about this class, and think its pretty wicked cool. However this is the ftoys first real season, and this is one of those growing pains.

Like Ive said before Ive talked with Scott all the way to JV and back about the Ftoy stuff. We did decide a frame mounted backwards, with the rails straightened, or narrowed would be a great start, and fix for many problems (rear tire meets frame rail) Now seriously, we will not build that. However, there is no rule regarding the frame. And if we thought of it, someone else will to, and do it. Im being a PITA about these type of rules becuase I think ironing out, and nipping any issues we see would be best done now. I would like to see this class keep the feel it has now, and the comraderie, its way cool. My main point, is expand the rules that need some definition now, and be done. Or wait til someone does even 1/2 of what scott and I talked about, and it will get ugly.

Because we've seen loopholes, and what not that need defining is why Im happy to help. I may just write some rules and send them into the BOD, and let them decide what to do with em.

Simple things like
"motor can be moved back 8" and down 1".
Scott says,"where's the frame relative to the chassis?
"Dunno, no rule"
"No rule for where the crank is relative to the nose of the chassis?"
"Nope"
"wow, you can put the thing anywhere then. Move the frame back, and extend the rails in front for the springs"

Scotts pretty good at devils advocate.

Now if there is some other goofhead like him out there, guess what, they will do things like this. It will suck, affect the class, screw up the sportsmanship currently, etc. I dont want to see that happen. Im not trying to manipulate the rules. Im trying the get them better defined so they dont get manipulated.

IM NOT THE BAD GUY, iM JUST PLAYING HIM!!! :evil:

[Im4yotas]

Wow, Im really looking like a jerk now!



Uh, you're on the PBB. You have to do a hell of a lot more to look like a jerk around here:flipoff2:

I think you have the right idea about writing what you think the rules should say and letting the BOD take a look at it. Since you have already thought about it at length, it would speed things up and maybe show them something they haven't thought about yet.

[KI5KA]

Now assume I dont even know of PBB (I live in a shoebox) Who is this Board,
Who did you buy the Chassis from! If you're going to be part of a class, keeping up with the "rules" and traditions is part of being "in" the class. Don't be thick.

Plus I now have to divulge my secretsof my build to others that are currently winning in this class.
Man, you really don't get the concept here. There ARE no secrets! That's the point. No one has any secret tricks on their truck, only in their skills. You want that other kind of class, it's out there. F Toy is not that class.

[Brian Ellinger]

Who did you buy the Chassis from! If you're going to be part of a class, keeping up with the "rules" and traditions is part of being "in" the class. Don't be thick.

[QOTE]Plus I now have to divulge my secretsof my build to others that are currently winning in this class.
Man, you really don't get the concept here. There ARE no secrets! That's the point. No one has any secret tricks on their truck, only in their skills. You want that kind of class, it's out there. F Toy is not that class.[/QUOTE]

Youre not getting my point. Myself, personally, I am involved. Im looking down the road for the folks that are not. For instance a local here that does not use the net, but would build a rig. He's been asking about details. Gosh, wouldnt it be nice if I could give him a comprehensive set of rules to comply to that he wouldnt even have to wonder about different things.

THAT is my point.

[KI5KA]

Just to restate, I'm not going to build an Ftoy anytime soon;
So go away.

If this is intended to stay good-ol-boys just playing around, that's fine,

Glad to have your approval:D

but if anybody wants to promote Ftoy as a legitimate motorsport.

I for one, hope to high heaven it never becomes a "legitimate" sport :laughing:

Hey, you know, folks have the same kind of classes in sailing too. If you want to do "laser" sailing, join them, they have a rule for EVERYTHING. I for one never had much fun with those folks.

[KI5KA]

tell him that they should of known better,
Yes. It's not that complicated.

you cant tell them that they cant compete because you dont have anything on paper that says they cant.
Of course you can.

just a bunch of people runnig around offering no help. ...i want to hear solutions. An excellent solution HAS been offered...

How about adding one rule that states something like this:
"Creative thinking is encouraged but if it doesn't specifically allow it in the rule book, assume that it is not allowed. Consult the Board of Directors with questions."

(1) expanded on the frame rule in the rules.

(2) let this thread die


Pay attention and give it support rather than just adding on to the wildass hysteria. Speaking of ideas, where are your's :D

i want to hear answers and ideas to secnarios that will happen as this class grows?

No you don't! Keep it simple. Accept the board as a benevolent Dicatatorship and accept the Dictator's rulings. If you don't like it, go play with someone else. ... Not YOU Hobie, the malcontent miscreants. :-)

[Im4yotas]

Who the fuck are you? You do realize the guy you just told to go away can offer a ton of help, right? Of course you don't:shaking:

Scott and Brian, please pay no attention to this noob. I am happy to see you are both interested and look forward to reading your ideas.

[KI5KA]

you cant say, all people who have ftoy must have the ftoy spirit.
Of course you can, and should. That IS the intent of the class and that ideal must be protected as an intregral part of the culture and rules of the club if it is going to remain so.

there is going to be joes who show up and arent friendly.
Not if they don't have things their way!

yall arent the ones who will be the person that has to tell someone that they cant compete.. I AM!
Gird your loins dude :D

and this person you are telling, isnt on the interent, doesnt know pirate. his kid printed him out the rules and he posted them in his garage. he doesnt know us, he doesnt know anyone who has an ftoy. and he is an competitive ass who doesnt have this beloved spirit that everyone loves to talk about.
You're creating a problem that doesn't exist.

i dont understand how everyone gets their panties in a wad over lil crap.:rolleyes:
There you go!!! :) THat's the spirit.
I'm a High School teacher. I hear these arguments ALL THE TIME about giving kids grades. I'm a tough grader and everyone knows it and NO ONE gives me crap. Of course it's tough some times, because I lied, people give me crap all the time, but I pretend to them AND to myself that they don't and then everyone is happy. REALLY. If they "KNOW" they can't change my mind, they don't waste the effort.

[KI5KA]

Who the fuck are you? You do realize the guy you just told to go away can offer a ton of help, right? Of course you don't:shaking:

Scott and Brian, please pay no attention to this noob. I am happy to see you are both interested and look forward to reading your ideas.

Brandon, You put 1 tons on your F toy chassis, making it something other than an F Toy. There are those in this thread that seem to want to do the same to the F Toy class... F Toy class appeals to me for different reasons than the F Toy Chassis appeals to you. I, for one, find the founding principals very appealing and I am invested in helping the class remain true to it's intent.

[Im4yotas]

I don't know how much you pay attention, but I have been involved in the class for a while now. Driven several events and spotted a couple, too. If you really want the class to last, listen to what Scott and Brian are saying instead of blowing them off. They know what they are talking about.

I haven't seen anybody in this thread saying they want to change the class:confused: WTF are you talking about???

[Scott@Rockstomper]

Looks like about 50/50 on who wants me to stick around, and who wants me to STFU and go away.

Just for giggles, I did what I could to write all the "cheats" I could think of, out of the rulebook. I don't think it changes the spirit of the class at all, although in all honesty, there are a few things that I've put numbers to in my rewrite, that I'm not sure of. So I'm hoping that if anybody uses my rewrite, they know more intimately what's already out there, and don't just blindly use my thoughts verbatim--I'm just hoping to contribute something useful.

If after this post, I'm voted "off the island" I'll get outta where I don't belong, and back to the tube cars side of things; if more people would prefer I stick around, I'd be happy to help when/where I can.

Anyway, without further ado, Scott's clarifications (the whole rulebook, not just what I suggest adding--I think I added ~1/2 page total):


Engine

Toyota 20r, 21ru ,22r, 22re engines are allowed
Propane, EFI, or Carb allowed
All Motors Must:
Must use factory head - for block
Must use stock type intake manifold
Must use pump gasoline or propane
Must be naturally aspirated
Radiator must mount in front of engine
Electric fans allowed
Engine can be moved back 0"- 8" from stock as measured from front factory crossmember location (if crossmember is missing or relocated, tech officials may use other known location at their discretion)
Engine can be moved down 0"-1" from stock measured from framerail height to crankshaft centerline at front of engine

Transmission /Transfer case

Any Toyota pickup/4Runner model manual or automatic transmission
Any Toyota gear driven mini truck case or combination of cases
Any manufactures gear set.
Any gear ratio
Dual case adapter adapter must be commercially available
Rear drive disconnect (internal or external) allowing front-drive-only of any type is not permitted

Cage / Chassis / Body

Safety cage built by an approved vendor to Formula Toyota cage specifications
Repairs to cage permitted; replaced tube sections must match original Formula Toyota cage dimensions to within 1/2" on any perimeter tubes (main body surround, roof surround/pillars, door surrounds).
Frame must be Toyota Pickup or 4Runner frame, 2wd or 4wd
Frame must use OEM Toyota rails
Frame may be shortened; minimum framerail length 10" shorter than Formula Toyota chassis overall length
Front of frame must be mounted within 4" of front end of Formula Toyota hood surround, measured horizontally front to back
Frame may be notched for steering clearance not more than 75% of the height of the frame at notch location
Frame crossmembers may be removed or replaced with non-OEM parts
Frame may not be narrowed or widened (rail to rail distance) in any location along its run
Frame must be installed in OEM orientation (right side up, front of frame to front of vehicle) and may not be rotated
Frame may be notched for suspension component attachment (shock clearance, spring hanger frenching, etc.) not more than half the height or width of the frame at the notch location.
Frame may not be notched for tire clearance in any location
Any repairs to framerails must be made to OEM dimensions

Steering

Any manual or power steering box.
Box must be attached to main frame rail
Drag link must attach to pitman arm on steering box
Ram assist steering is allowed
OEM Toyota style front-to-back steering allowed
Any aftermarket high/cross over steer kit allowed.
Drag link must attach to steering arm on axle using the standard method
Full hydraulic steering not allowed

Front Axle

Front axle must be from 1979 - 1985 Toyota Pickup or 4Runner
Aftermarket/custom housings are allowed (must use Toyota 8" third)
OEM or Aftermarket birfields allowed
Aftermarket inner axles allowed
Must use Toyota 8" third members (FJ80, V6 or 4cyl)
Any factory or aftermarket ring & pinion gear sets
Must use oem Toyota Pickup/4Runner knuckles
Differential shaving allowed
Trussing and diff armoring allowed
Birfield eliminator kits not allowed, must use Birfields.
Secondary disconnect devices (ie axleshaft disconnect) not allowed

Rear Axle

Rear axle must be from 1979 - 1995 Toyota Pickup or 4Runner
Any Toyota 8" third member allowed (FJ80, V6 or 4cyl)
Any factory or aftermarket ring & pinion gear sets
Aftermarket/custom axle housings allowed (must use Toyota 8" third)
Aftermarket axle shafts allowed
Differential shaving allowed
Trussing and diff armored allowed
Secondary disconnect devices (ie axleshaft disconnect, unlockable hubs) not allowed
Floater axles or conversion kits allowed
Must use OEM-Toyota style drum brakes

Lockers

Any aftermarket locker
Open or welded differential allowed

Front Suspension

Any conventional 1/2 elliptical leaf spring allowed
Attachment methods must be OEM style, fixed at one end and a single shackle at the other end
Any OEM or aftermarket steel non take apart shock
Shock must attach to axle in OEM fashion
No aftermarket traction bar or link type attachments; OEM style torque rod (one point only on axle and frame) allowed
Springs must be mounted so they are stock width apart
U-bolt flip allowed
Springs must be securely attached to axle

Rear Suspension

Any conventional 1/2 elliptical leaf spring allowed
Attachment methods must be OEM style, fixed at one end and a single shackle at the other end
Any OEM or aftermarket steel non take apart shock
Frenched spring hangers allowed
Inboarding of springs allowed
Springs must be mounted no closer together than front stock spring width
Single traction bar (not more than two point axle and one point frame attachment) allowed
U-bolt flip allowed
Springs must be securely attached to axle

Brakes

Any year Toyota front disc
Any year Toyota rear drum
Manual or power assisted brakes allowed
Service brakes must "lock-up" all four wheels
No cutting or turning (individual wheel) brakes allowed
Functional parking brake or micro lock required
Functional wheel brakes must be installed on all four wheels; driveshaft (transmission, pinion, or transfer case) brakes may be used as secondary brakes

Battery

Any spill proof style battery
Battery must be securely mounted, no bungee cords

Tires

Any tire size or brand
Any wheel
Internal or external beadlocked wheels permitted

Fuel system

Stock tank or fuel cell
Fuel system must either be closed loop system or spill proof roll over valve.
Vehicles that leak fuel will not be allowed to continue with competition until the issue is fixed.

Safety

D.O.T. helmet
Five point seat harness
Neck restraint collar
Window net
Metal roof must cover entire roof opening
Solid metal roof can be bolt on at least every 12 inches
Expanded metal roof must be welded at each contact point
First aid kit
2 Fire extinguishers

[KI5KA]

Looks like about 50/50 on who wants me to stick around, and who wants me to STFU and go away.

Scott, I did not mean to suggest that YOU should go away, but that those who want to look for loopholes should be vigorously encouraged to do so (go away, that is, not, look for loopholes :)). I think it's more productive to have fewer rules rather than more since simplicity is the root value of the class.

Just for giggles, I did what I could to write all the "cheats" I could think of, out of the rulebook.
Maybe that IS a useful thing to do, but I think there will ALWAYS be ways around rules. I think a "god" rule is much simpler. If you are judged to be purposefully trying to circumvent the intent, your vehicle can be dissallowed. Just got to find a god with thick skin. :D

If after this post, I'm voted "off the island" I'll get outta where I don't belong, and back to the tube cars side of things; if more people would prefer I stick around, I'd be happy to help when/where I can.
Mate, the "go away" comment was aimed at those who might demonstrate the "cheats" you described, not you. My appoligies, seems I didn't make that very clear.

I DO think that such attitudes should be quelled in the fine tradition of the Pirates of the Rubicon Bulletin Board.:)

[Heywood]

):
Frame may be notched for suspension component attachment (shock clearance, spring hanger frenching, etc.) not more than half the height or width of the frame at the notch location.


That would make at least me and marlin illegal.:(

I notched (as seen in pict on page 2) for shock clearance to make more room for fuel and cargo.

[Scott@Rockstomper]

That would make at least me and marlin illegal.:(

I notched (as seen in pict on page 2) for shock clearance to make more room for fuel and cargo.

As I noted in my intro to my revisions, I'm hoping that those who know more specifically about Ftoy, will read (and rewrite/revise) my revisions appropriately; I see no problem with that being rephrased to 90% or whatever's more reasonable. The "half the height or width" was just a generic guess with the hope that if my rewrite was used, it'd be edited, but used as a thinking point of "hey, we oughta have a rule on that, but Scott's numbers are wrong".

I'd much rather that cumbersome glob of "frame may be shortened to a length not less than ten inches shorter than the Formula Toyota chassis length" really read "frame may be shortened to not less than X inches" but since I don't know what the length of the Ftoy chassis is, I don't know what 10" less than it, would be, either. Worse, I don't know if 10" shorter than the Ftoy chassis, is reasonable, but I think a frame length rule is necessary, and Ftoy has the luxury of having a standard chassis overall length.

[Heywood]

As I noted in my intro to my revisions, I'm hoping that those who know more specifically about Ftoy, will read (and rewrite/revise) my revisions appropriately; I see no problem with that being rephrased to 90% or whatever's more reasonable. The "half the height or width" was just a generic guess with the hope that if my rewrite was used, it'd be edited, but used as a thinking point of "hey, we oughta have a rule on that, but Scott's numbers are wrong".

I'd much rather that cumbersome glob of "frame may be shortened to a length not less than ten inches shorter than the Formula Toyota chassis length" really read "frame may be shortened to not less than X inches" but since I don't know what the length of the Ftoy chassis is, I don't know what 10" less than it, would be, either. Worse, I don't know if 10" shorter than the Ftoy chassis, is reasonable, but I think a frame length rule is necessary, and Ftoy has the luxury of having a standard chassis overall length.

Understood.
I thought they looked good. I was just pointing out a detail.

I was thinking something like, "frame rails should run uninterupted the lenght of the chassis +/- 6"

[Scott@Rockstomper]

Understood.
I thought they looked good. I was just pointing out a detail.

I was thinking something like, "frame rails should run uninterupted the lenght of the chassis +/- 6"

Sounds great to me.

Tweaked just a little more:
"Ends of frame must be within 6", measured horizontally, of ends of Formula Toyota chassis, on both ends; frame must run uninterrupted for its entire length" ?

(I really don't like seeing "should" in a rulebook; it implies that it's requested, but not required, that you comply)

At that point, the frame can stick out, or be shorter, by up to 6", on both ends (net up to 12" longer or shorter overall if somebody takes it to the max) but not "off" by more than 6" on either end.

[Im4yotas]

Just for giggles, I did what I could to write all the "cheats" I could think of, out of the rulebook. I don't think it changes the spirit of the class at all, although in all honesty, there are a few things that I've put numbers to in my rewrite, that I'm not sure of. So I'm hoping that if anybody uses my rewrite, they know more intimately what's already out there, and don't just blindly use my thoughts verbatim--I'm just hoping to contribute something useful.




Thanks Scott. I know you didn't just slap that out in a couple minutes, there's some time in that and it's appreciated. Please keep up the constructive criticism. You have more experience than most (if not all) of us.


One thing I have heard a complaint with is the window nets. There should be a minimum dimension and location requirement. Maybe it needs to meet certain other class saftey requirements??

[Scott@Rockstomper]

I didn't even look at the window nets; I don't know what the size of the Ftoy window opening is.

"Standard" roundy-round window nets are 18x24 inches; if an Ftoy window opening is taller than 18" (I suspect it is) then a "normal" window net won't fit it unless it's turned-around to be tall and skinny, which is then much less useful at keeping hands inside.

My suggestion for optimal safety using production parts (trying to keep costs reasonable) would be:
"Window nets must cover a rectangular area at least 18" high by 24" long, from the driver's headrest forward, and from the windowsill up. Gap between net and roof is acceptable; the bottom of the net must be mounted as close as practical to windowsill height."

Are window nets to be ribbon (webbing) only, or are string window nets acceptable? I saw some commentary about visibility issues with window nets; I wasn't sure if that was a view obstruction (ribbon nets) or a driver's-mobility issue (any net, since it prevents you from leaning out the window) or both?

[Im4yotas]

I think the 18 x 24's are too small. Ribbon and string should both be allowed, as they both do the job of keeping hands in. Sean's string net is approved by a few major racing sanctioning bodies, so it shouldn't be a problem just because he can see through it better.

[Scott@Rockstomper]

Optimal safety (don't care what it costs to buy the nets) window net rule:
"Window nets must cover from 4 inches forward of the steering wheel to the driver's headrest, and from the roof to the windowsill. Ribbon, string, or mesh nets with holes not larger than 3x3 inches are approved."

At that, you may be requiring that Ftoys get custom nets made; I'm not sure how large that net ends up. I think the 3x3 dimension is approximately similar to production ribbon nets (string and mesh nets have smaller holes), but I'm also pretty sure that I can get my hand through a 3x3 square in a ribbon net.

Again, my dimensions are just a starting point; 4" forward of the wheel may be substantially unnecessary (and/or an expensive PITA to hit) but wheel to headrest and sill to roof seems like a good starting point, and forward a bit of the wheel (assuming your arms are bent when you're driving) would be better for arm/hand retention in a roll (the real point to a net).

[Wilson]

When this whole thing started, I can remember remarks by camo about "secrets" and little things done to the cars and the rules being vaguely written for that purpose. Then when he showed up with a stroker motor, people got mad. While it is supposed to be a driver's class, the rules were written and were intended to leave loop holes for creativity. The BOD needs to step up and refine these as necessary and find a true direction for the class.

[Nissan Recovery Team]

Scott and Brian, please pay no attention to this noob. I am happy to see you are both interested and look forward to reading your ideas.

X2 Good discussion.

[catfish<><]

this is from an outsider looking in, I am seriously concidering building an F toy for compitition, This class is about the only way I would be able to compete, the spirit seems very good, clear rules on what you can and can't do are nessasary, every little edge is an edge and if one guy builds what another guy does'nt because he thinks its against the rules, thats an edge. Or if you show up to an event with something a little different and it's not concidered legal. I don't want to waste money on mistakes by incorrectly interpeting the rules

bob

www.extremewheelers4christ.org

[RE:Todd]

I think the 18 x 24's are too small. Ribbon and string should both be allowed, as they both do the job of keeping hands in. Sean's string net is approved by a few major racing sanctioning bodies, so it shouldn't be a problem just because he can see through it better.DToy has my buggy, but the net we use is perfect for protection (i.e. hands and feet inside the ride) and is a commercially available size. Not custom so not expensive.

[rlwjaw]

Since this is the first time I have ever built a rig from scratch I have a
quick question about the rules. I am starting with a 2wd frame and was wondering if it is ok to use a weld on rear spring shackel hanger (Marlin # MC-13264) for the rear of the front springs instead of drilling the frame and inserting a tube? Is this even a good idea? Any help would be appreciated. I hope this is the right place to ask this kind of question , if not let me know because there will be lots more to follow.
Thanks
Dick Wentworth