Welcome to the next installment of the

Topic of the Week

The subject for the week is roll cages. We need them. We want them. We love them.

Some suggested points of discussion:
Designs (pics as well as theory)
Materials (pipe bad, tube good / DOM vs HREW)
Gusseting
Pre-fabbed kits

Let's start with some easy stuff.

Let's get a list of terms and definitions.

Things like stinger, hoop, halo, etc.

Tube = What you build your cage out of.

Pipe = What hooks up to your toilet so that you can flush your shit away :flipoff2:

I was wondering about the DOM vs. HREW debate the other day. I think that HREW would work just fine, especially if you got it in a thicker wall like .188 instead of .120. DOM is just so damned expensive these days!

J. J.

I feel all naked female passengers look better with halo's over they're heads:evil:

I'm building a halo one that ties into the cowl, then uses rectangular tubing going down the channel that is just in front of the door opening on CJ's and YJ's. From there it's going to tie into the rocker skid which ties to the frame. In the back I'm going to build it so that it's dimensionally the same as a late model YJ, so you can use all that fancy Bestop duster thingies. Except in the rear, at the top where the cross bars are it will be the same width as a YJ front, so you can buy a fancy TV/DVD/VCR/Speaker sound bar thingie. And I might even put a fancy TV/blah blah....thingie in my Scrambler so not only can My kids watch movies while driving to the trail, but we can watch 4X4 and adult movies when they're not with us. And yes I'll admit it by "adult" I'm not likely talking more than an R rating. At least on the trail.:p :flipoff2:

i'm currently fabbing my cage, it's out of .120 DOM and is a mixture of the OR fab cage and the rockhard 4x4 cage, it's going to tie into the side impace beams and go down to a floor mount.
gonna have a cross bar just above the dash and another above the two majour bends are going to be gusseted.


what are your oppinions on the strength of a cage that is mounted to the side impace beams and is floor mounted?
:beer:

Good topic, here's my cage:
<IMG SRC= "http://www.yankeetoys.org/black900rr/ilean/UROC_2002/st_george/StGeorge02-095.JPG">
I'd like to weigh in on the DOM Vs. HREW debate. I was looking at a truck the other day that had an exo cage that was made of both DOM and HREW tube. The parts that were made of HREW had dented after being hit with rocks. The parts of the cage that were made of DOM were not dented. The rocks could only scrape the paint off. I made my whole cage (Internal and external) out of DOM (1.75x.120). It may be a little more expensive, but if you have to replace the cage after a year or two because the HREW has dented, bent, and deformed, is it really going to end up being cheaper? I have no doubt that HREW is suitable material, and I'm sure it would hold up well in a rollover (which is what you built it for), but I just think DOM is going to be more durable, and last longer.

No pictures yet but I wll take some when the cage is done. I am using .120 wall dom tubing for most of the cage and am thinking of using erw for the rest. The erw wont have the same amount of stress on it as the dom so I am thinking it should be just fine. We are getting a smoking deal on tubing so cost isnt a huge issue but I can get twicw as much erw than dom to do other stuff. By the way you guys posting pics of your cages have given me some great ideas. Thanks.

does anyone know what the factory CJ cage is made out of, and what the Smittybuilt weld in hoops is?

Halo Vs. Hoop:
It seems to me that the vast majority of the rollovers in rockcrawling rigs are sideways barrell roll type rolls. In such a rollover it seems that the hoop style cages are going to hold up better because the vehicle is rolling along the length of the main support bars. It seems like a halo style cage is going to be much easier to knock sideways. I'm having trouble putting into words this concept, but I think the hoop style cages are stronger in sideways rollovers. I remember looking at the Curry's halo cage after the Vernal rollover, and not being surprised that it got smashed so badly. I could be totally wrong about this, I haven't seen any engineering data either way, and the halo cages are way easier to build (my front hoop has six bends in three different planes...).

As long as I'm giving my opinion, and as long as I have to be at work...
Exocages:
I'm hearing a few people say they don't like exocages at all. They do add weight (although not really that much if they're done right). But I really think the benefits are phenominal. How many of you have nerf bars (of some sort) to protect your rocker panels? Why do you have them? Cuz otherwise the bottom edge of your body tub would get all beat to shit, right? Well slap an exocage on that beeeotch and now you can roll over, drive on your side, and slam into shit without destroying your rig. An exo cage doesn't just protect your body panels from dents and scratches, if you build one to do that it would be rediculously heavy and overdone. If you build an exocage to protect your rig enough to keep it going down the trail then you are on the right track. Case in point: hard sideways rollover with no exocage will likely smash your grill and destroy your radiator, preventing you from continuing to drive (and generally fawking up your weekend). Same rollover with an exocage and the cage will prevent the grill from getting smashed and you can push the thing over and keep going. It's also very liberating. I never really cared much about getting dents and stuff, but since I built the exo I've been freed to do stuff that would have totally screwed up my rig. You can drive up lines that leave others shaking their heads. When I get home I can just spray some paint back onto the cage, rather than beating the body tub back out. Exocages rule...

My cage. 2 CJ5 rollbars - One in the normal location, one flipped backwards with the down tubes cut off and used as spreaders for the rear hoop. Front hoop locally made. Shoulder bars for the harnesses front and rear, and a diagonal brace above the back seat (You can never have too much tubing around the kids)

Still needs door bars. I know there should be spreaders at the outside between the front and middle hoop, but it's a trade-off. I hate bashing my head into them and there's not a lot of room in a flatty.

http://www.oldjeep.com/images/032302/032302SIDE.jpg

stinger = front hoop type bumper that avalanche sells. your rig pivots on it as it rolls over, saving the radiator and hood.

http://www.4xvideo.com/projects/gossemer/images/104-0461_IMG.jpg

Originally posted by aaronlosey
stinger = front hoop type bumper that avalanche sells. your rig pivots on it as it rolls over, saving the radiator and hood.

http://www.4xvideo.com/projects/gossemer/images/104-0461_IMG.jpg

A Stinger sticks out of the front really far, hopefully preventing an end-over-end roll from the front. Other than that, you can achieve the samm effect and not lose approach angle with something that hugs your grill and goes straight up.

J. J.

Let's really get the debate going.

Let's hear everyone's opinion about the follow:

Seamless tube vs. DOM vs. HREW.

Bring it awn.

And even for the really adept, how about alloy seamless. That should make it fun.:D

I'll weigh in on this one. Built mine out of a stock late model YJ bar, a Smittybuilt CJ hoop kit, and supplimental HREW for the dash, door sills, and rear spreader. All in all, got about $300 into it total, including electrical. Late model YJ cages (direct bolt-in to CJ's) and kits are a nice solution for those of us with basic welding skills, but no access to quality benders.

It's a first effort and other than electrical (which I'm pretty fawking proud of) doesn't hold a candle to what some of the :bender: artists around here turn out. On the :massey: electrical, it's got its own 150 amp resettable marine breaker, 4 ga power/ground feeds, and a 10 gang fuse/ground distribution block (notice the nice hinged door with the thumbscrews).


http://tellico.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/9-684162-01150025.JPG
http://tellico.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/9-684165-01150017.JPG
http://tellico.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/9-684190-01150037.JPG
http://tellico.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/9-684221-02110004.JPG http://bbs.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/9-684158-01150029.JPG:beer:

Go pink or go home :flipoff2: Bitchin set up Bluesman.....I am impressed ;)

I'm all for the exo cage. I've got a newer s-10 that I still owe payments on. I'd probably keep an internal roll bar for general safety. Ok I'm ready for this one.

What about an exo cage that ties into the rock sliders, but is bolted on with high grade hardware?? I could take it off when needed (everday driving). the "receivers" for the cage legs would be cups of larger size tubing that the legs would slide into.
Or am I just trying to have my cake and eat it too?

Originally posted by patooyee


A Stinger sticks out of the front really far, hopefully preventing an end-over-end roll from the front.

I've never heard it called a stinger, but some of the magazines have referred to it as an anti-nerf bar.

I thought a stinger was one of the bars that goes from the roll bar to the front hoop (?)

Originally posted by sfazr2

What about an exo cage that ties into the rock sliders, but is bolted on with high grade hardware?? I could take it off when needed (everday driving). the "receivers" for the cage legs would be cups of larger size tubing that the legs would slide into.
Or am I just trying to have my cake and eat it too?

I dont really like to have easily removed structural items on my Rig, but your idea sounds like it would work. If 1 hitch pin can pull a trailer, and you'd need at least 4 to hold at least 4 legs on, I think it would be fine. Might be a huge pain in the ass to remove and reinstall the cage

Just got done with my cage built out of 2" .120 DOM for main structure the cage is tied into the rocker guards on each side and the guards tie into all three body mounts on each side. The seats are also mounted to the cage, here are a few pics..

http://www.tpijeep.com/FinCage_006.jpg

http://www.tpijeep.com/FinCage_005.jpg

http://www.tpijeep.com/Cage_012.jpg

:D

Keith: I believe the phrase is "It ain't FAWKIN PINK!!!!" :flipoff2: ;) That would be rustoleum "safety red" I thought it an appropriate color considering the name.

TPIJeep: those are some KILLER monkeybarz you got there, VERY nice sir!

I nearly finished with modifications to my cage.
I installed HREW into the rear door pillar, along the leading edge of the door, and along the sill. A tube will be ran inside, along the upper rail of the bed following the stock lines, and another at the joint of the fender well. Both will meet an additinal down tube at the rear of the bed at the rear door, which will run down to a modified body mount.
The door way tube at the sill ties into a reinforced bed pan at the body mounts, with several angled down tubes which will be reskinned with 1/8" plate and reinforced in key areas with 3/16" plate. This allowed me to remove the rocker panels and tie the cage in at the same time.
It should be nearly complete today.

H8,
What size tube are you running in the Fenders that you have? I need some fender bad and want to see if the local race car guy has some. The largest he can go to is 1 3/4 thanks alot.

Originally posted by bigjeepinYJ
H8,
What size tube are you running in the Fenders that you have? I need some fender bad and want to see if the local race car guy has some. The largest he can go to is 1 3/4 thanks alot.

I am running 1 3/4" .120 wall.
But all of the tubing will be on the inside of the skin.
The reasoning behind all of the work it took to fab this set up, is to reinforce the perimeter of the tub, but to lose no clearance to an exo cage.
If your looking for fender flares to satisfy your local law enforcement, they would have to come in the form of removeable bolt ons,(which I may look into fabbing for muddy runs and street legality).

Originally posted by Bob/CA
Let's really get the debate going.

Let's hear everyone's opinion about the follow:

Seamless tube vs. DOM vs. HREW.



All of the suplimental bars in my cage are HREW, shoulder bars - dash bar and the diagonal brace. They are all straight tube, no bends and I couldn't see paying the big $$ for DOM by the foot when I can buy HREW for .39 a Pound. The 2 rear hoops are made out of whatever the factory uses - which looked to be DOM, there wasn't a raised weld inside, but I could still see some of the seam. Everything is 2" .120

Bluesman2a,

Which CJ hoop did you get? Is that the one for a CJ without a dash pad, or one with? Do you happen to have the PN? Thanks.

Also, it doesn't appear with the rear to front spreaders you have that you can fit a top, even a soft top, is that correct?

I really like the look/functionality of yours.

Also, since it's damn near impossible to get .120 wall anything here (common use is 1 5/8" and 13/4" x .095 for "racing" cages).

Any honest thought on using .095 with extra bracing?

I called every steel shop I could find in the state, and no one even knew what "tube" was.

I am going to have to pay a bundle to get .120 wall......be grateful if you live in a place where this is more common.

Charly

What about the weld in kits from off road shops? Like
Tennessee Off Road's Cage Kit (http://www.tennesseeoffroad.com/catalog/fabshop_customcage.htm) or the Rockhard Cages? Anyone have any opinions on these or others? :confused:

Okay, gimme a second to climb into my asbestos jumpsuit.... There.

Okay, my turn to ask what might appear to be a dumb question. Charly and I are both up here in the great frozen north, and nobody knows what the hell "tube" is. I had to stand and explain for 5 minutes to the hardware guy at Home Depot to get him to understand what I meant by "Grade 8" bolts.

So we're at a supply disadvantage, and hence my question:

Why is pipe so terrible to build a cage with? I just haven't read any of the reasons why yet, so this might be something good to expound on.

I know a guy up here that not only made his cage out of sched 40 black pipe, but tube-framed his whole Jeep with it.

If you have to do a sharp bend in it, then it deforms a lot, and doesn't look very pretty. Does it weaken sufficiently therer that it will give in a roll? What's the deal?

Thanks for eventual enlightenment.

Boots

what angle bend is safe?
I would believe that you sould never bend more then 90° and should if application possable brake a 90°bend into a 80 and 10 or so that there is no 90+° in one bend. I like the idea of throwing in a small pipe as a brace on 90° bends, these can also be handles and will really help keep the cage square.

DOM: drawn over mandrel, what does that mean?
Its commonly chromoly but can come in mild steel.
The chromoly version of DOM is just easier to find and stronger so i see no reason to use mild steel unless its cheep in your area.

PIPE: Not good for bending. The stronger the better so, Id trust a one piece bent DOM pipe over a three section welded pipe, plus the DOM is stronger for its weight then the pipe.

Originally posted by Steven_Mc
What about the weld in kits from off road shops? Like
Tennessee Off Road's Cage Kit (http://www.tennesseeoffroad.com/catalog/fabshop_customcage.htm) or the Rockhard Cages? Anyone have any opinions on these or others? :confused:

The weld in kit front hoop and spreaders I got from TOR, the rear hoop and spreaders I got fron EOR, also weld in. Both are .120 DOM
THey held up fine during my panamint valley rollover. It was a diaganol roll. The front cage did bend in alittle (about half inch)

All together it cost $220 front and $160 rear which was a good solution for me since I no have tubebender.

Here is my cage. I'll get some better pics soon. Ran the jeep for the first time without a windshield two weeks ago out at JV. We did wrecking ball on Sat. and Sledge on Sun.



http://www.t-rox.com/rollcage/quinns/dscn0527.jpg

http://www.t-rox.com/rollcage/quinns/dscn0532.jpg

My current "quandry" is this, anyone offer advice?

I have a 76 CJ5, and the stock roll bar. Now, obviously that bar is mounted just to the fenderwells. Is that a "safe" place to build off of? Or should I scrap the whole thing.

I have a youngin, and want to make sure that he's safe!

TIA

Out

I think it is plenty safe. If you want it to tie into the frame then build a tube rig.

Originally posted by IndyCJ
My current "quandry" is this, anyone offer advice?

I have a 76 CJ5, and the stock roll bar. Now, obviously that bar is mounted just to the fenderwells. Is that a "safe" place to build off of? Or should I scrap the whole thing.

I have a youngin, and want to make sure that he's safe!

TIA

Out

I've never seen one fail mounted like this, it would only be an issue if you were really hardcore and rolled several times every wheeling season (or like some people every trip) if you don't plan on rolling but just need the cage in case I thinking mounting to the tub is plenty

This set-back front cross bar design allows me to use the hard top's Kwik Kit II latches, the rear view mirror, windshield knobs, sun visors, and I can still open the glove box enough to use it.

http://www.monsterslayer.com/jeep/images/Cage1.jpg

It's a straight shot back to the base of the OEM hoop.
Another "straighter is stronger" line.

http://www.monsterslayer.com/jeep/images/Cage2.jpg

With a good, strong tie-in to the frame and an OEM rubber body mount for stress relief and ride.

http://www.monsterslayer.com/jeep/images/Cage3.jpg

K.I.S.S. :p

Originally posted by IndyCJ
My current "quandry" is this, anyone offer advice?

I have a 76 CJ5, and the stock roll bar. Now, obviously that bar is mounted just to the fenderwells. Is that a "safe" place to build off of? Or should I scrap the whole thing.

I have a youngin, and want to make sure that he's safe!

TIA

Out

You can buy a kit, or have someone bend you a couple tie ins. They run down the the frame from the inside of the fenderwell. If you do a search there was a good thread on tying cage to frame a while back.

You can also put some bolts through the side of the body into the "L" channel on the bottom of the stock rollbar. helps spread the load out a little more.

That being said, mine isn't currently tied to the frame, but I do worry about it punching through the fairly thin rear fenders in the event of a really bad roll.

The best thing you can do for your kid is to make sure there is a hoop in front of and behind them.

Some of you backyard fabricators don't have a friggin' clue. How many times on these message boards have I read "pipe is for plumbers" or some crap like "use tubing, since your life may depend on it". Now, once again, it is just fine to build a cage out of pipe. Yeah that's right, plain ole A53b water pipe. ERW, seamless, DOM, steel grade, yield stress, all of that really makes little difference if a cage is not designed properly. Design is the key, not materials. I'm building a cage for my CJ out of 2" Scd 40 & 80 PIPE and I guarantee it will be MUCH, MUCH stronger than some of the crap thrown together out of TUBING that I've seen on some of these message boards. The whole point of using stuff like 1020 DOM or 4130 tubing is that you can build a lighter cage because you can use thinner walled members. That's usually not a concern for most of us though. Just remember DESIGN and proper construction is key, not the materials you use. So please people, quit saying crap like "pipe is for plumbers" because it's simply not true.

You a plumber?

Originally posted by Rock Toy
You a plumber?

No, I'm a structural engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Nivloc
Some of you backyard fabricators don't have a friggin' clue. How many times on these message boards have I read "pipe is for plumbers" or some crap like "use tubing, since your life may depend on it". Now, once again, it is just fine to build a cage out of pipe. Yeah that's right, plain ole A53b water pipe. ERW, seamless, DOM, steel grade, yield stress, all of that really makes little difference if a cage is not designed properly. Design is the key, not materials. I'm building a cage for my CJ out of 2" Scd 40 & 80 PIPE and I guarantee it will be MUCH, MUCH stronger than some of the crap thrown together out of TUBING that I've seen on some of these message boards. The whole point of using stuff like 1020 DOM or 4130 tubing is that you can build a lighter cage because you can use thinner walled members. That's usually not a concern for most of us though. Just remember DESIGN and proper construction is key, not the materials you use. So please people, quit saying crap like "pipe is for plumbers" because it's simply not true.

Just make sure that the "hot" is on the left and the "cold" is on the right, shit flows down hill,...and dont bite your finger nails after working on the sewer lines.:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Nivloc
Some of you backyard fabricators don't have a friggin' clue. How many times on these message boards have I read "pipe is for plumbers" or some crap like "use tubing, since your life may depend on it". Now, once again, it is just fine to build a cage out of pipe. Yeah that's right, plain ole A53b water pipe. ERW, seamless, DOM, steel grade, yield stress, all of that really makes little difference if a cage is not designed properly. Design is the key, not materials. I'm building a cage for my CJ out of 2" Scd 40 & 80 PIPE and I guarantee it will be MUCH, MUCH stronger than some of the crap thrown together out of TUBING that I've seen on some of these message boards. The whole point of using stuff like 1020 DOM or 4130 tubing is that you can build a lighter cage because you can use thinner walled members. That's usually not a concern for most of us though. Just remember DESIGN and proper construction is key, not the materials you use. So please people, quit saying crap like "pipe is for plumbers" because it's simply not true.

Regardless of the design the pipe is still going to dent and bend when it is hit hard with a rock. A pipe cage designed properly will save your life in a roll, but it will also need to be replaced after that roll. That was my argument for DOM tube. The cage is still going to save your life, but it will also last a lot longer. That same cage will save your life again and again without needing to be replaced. Some guys can't get through a day wheeling without rolling over one or two times, and if you have to replace your cage after every trip you WILL be looking for better materials.

What about tyeing the front hoop into the bulkhead/firewall, instead running it all the way to the floor?

I have a CJ5, and I'm 6'5". Running a hoop to the floor is doable, but any amount of legroom that I can spare, is a definate plus.

I thought I've seen one of the "companies" (OR Fab, MORE, etc) had a "TJ" roll bar that did kind of the same thing, but I haven't seen a design for a CJ. :(

Originally posted by IndyCJ
What about tyeing the front hoop into the bulkhead/firewall, instead running it all the way to the floor?

I have a CJ5, and I'm 6'5". Running a hoop to the floor is doable, but any amount of legroom that I can spare, is a definate plus.

I thought I've seen one of the "companies" (OR Fab, MORE, etc) had a "TJ" roll bar that did kind of the same thing, but I haven't seen a design for a CJ. :(

Ive seen a wrecked TJ with a MORE style cage attached to the dash. The wreck clearly changed my mind about ever using that type of design. Instead of the down tube comming up and jamming under the seat in the case of a failure at the mount, the down tube in the case of the MORE style mount, had torn away and was jammed right into the driver seat at about chest height.:eek:

Originally posted by GhettoRig


Regardless of the design the pipe is still going to dent and bend when it is hit hard with a rock. A pipe cage designed properly will save your life in a roll, but it will also need to be replaced after that roll. That was my argument for DOM tube. The cage is still going to save your life, but it will also last a lot longer. That same cage will save your life again and again without needing to be replaced. Some guys can't get through a day wheeling without rolling over one or two times, and if you have to replace your cage after every trip you WILL be looking for better materials.

That is pure speculation that pipe will bend & DOM won't. You do know that DOM is starts out as ERW and the weld seam is rolled smooth. The seam is actually still there. Anything that will bend pipe (at least on my cage) will most certainly bend the DOM. Why, because an equal length of 2" Scd 80 pipe (A53b) is a good bit stronger than 1.75"x0.120" (1010 or 1020) tube that cages are typically made from.

Originally posted by GhettoRig


Regardless of the design the pipe is still going to dent and bend when it is hit hard with a rock. A pipe cage designed properly will save your life in a roll, but it will also need to be replaced after that roll. That was my argument for DOM tube. The cage is still going to save your life, but it will also last a lot longer. That same cage will save your life again and again without needing to be replaced. Some guys can't get through a day wheeling without rolling over one or two times, and if you have to replace your cage after every trip you WILL be looking for better materials.


Why would schedule 40 or 80 which is nearly .250 wall, dent any easier in a straight run application than say .120 wall HREW or DOM?
I have used schedule 40 in the past, as rock gaurds, and they seem to be very durable.

I am a plumber and trust me I work with these materials every day! Cage design is importent. So is material. Black pipe is and should only be used as pipe not tubing. You talk about being a structural engineer then you should understand that bending black pipe weakens it considerably! Even if you gusset it! After a rollover it will bend,dent, and continue to do so if you keep stressing the pipe. You cannot bend Pipe like you can tubing without crinkiling it. This weakens the pipe and the integrity of the cage even with a good design. If you want to put your life in your hands that is fine (you say you are educated) but dont tell people on here that may not have the experiance, that this material is fine to use as a cage. Most of the people who would consider using this material dont have a clue as to good cage design either. This makes a poor design and poor material..... that could equal death!
I had a good friend roll his jeep in highschool he had a cage made out of pipe. He is dead now. I really think Pipe is a bad way to do somthing that is supposed to save your life. Dont scrimp on the stuff thats importent.

Originally posted by jeepin801
I am a plumber and trust me I work with these materials every day! Cage design is importent. So is material. Black pipe is and should only be used as pipe not tubing. You talk about being a structural engineer then you should understand that bending black pipe weakens it considerably! Even if you gusset it! After a rollover it will bend,dent, and continue to do so if you keep stressing the pipe. You cannot bend Pipe like you can tubing without crinkiling it. This weakens the pipe and the integrity of the cage even with a good design. If you want to put your life in your hands that is fine (you say you are educated) but dont tell people on here that may not have the experiance that this material is fine to use as a cage. Most of the people who would consider using this material dont have a clue as to good cage design either. This makes a poor design and poor material..... that could equal death!
I had a good friend roll his jeep in highschool he had a cage made out of pipe. He is dead now. I really think Pipe is a bad way to do somthing that is supposed to save your life. Dont scrimp on the stuff thats importent.


Black pipe is just black because of the coating, and bending it DOES NOT make it weaker. If anything it makes it stronger due to elastic hardening. Also, I've bent lots of pipe with my cheap ass Harbor Freight bender with no problems. No kinks, binds or whatever. I use pipe in structural designs all of the time that are a hell of a lot more complex than a friggin roll cage. Are you telling me that I'm not using standard engineering practice by using pipe? Because if that's what you're saying, PUT DOWN THE CRACK PIPE down and stick to plumbing. Sorry to sound like a smart-ass, but I'm just tired of seeing this crap.

Originally posted by Nivloc


That is pure speculation that pipe will bend & DOM won't. You do know that DOM is starts out as ERW and the weld seam is rolled smooth. The seam is actually still there. Anything that will bend pipe (at least on my cage) will most certainly bend the DOM. Why, because an equal length of 2" Scd 80 pipe (A53b) is a good bit stronger than 1.75"x0.120" (1010 or 1020) tube that cages are typically made from.

I've seen it with my own eyes. Yes, I am aware that DOM starts out as ERW. I've seen pipe and ERW tube dent, where DOM has not. Refer to my earlier post. There was DOM and ERW on the same truck. The parts that were ERW had dents all over them, the parts that were DOM were only scraped, not dented. Sure you can build a cage out of thicker wall and bigger diameter pipe and get enough strength, but then you are adding a ton of weight.

Originally posted by GhettoRig


I've seen it with my own eyes. Yes, I am aware that DOM starts out as ERW. I've seen pipe and ERW tube dent, where DOM has not. Refer to my earlier post. There was DOM and ERW on the same truck. The parts that were ERW had dents all over them, the parts that were DOM were only scraped, not dented. Sure you can build a cage out of thicker wall and bigger diameter pipe and get enough strength, but then you are adding a ton of weight.

Like I said, weight isn't an issue for a lot of us, plus it's more like <100lbs more, not a ton. :flipoff2: The ERW had dents more likely because it was thinner walled than the DOM. The bottom line is, a lot of people say you can't/shouldn't build a cage out of pipe. I say bullshit, you can and it will be just as strong if not stronger than a similarly built cage made out of tube.

Originally posted by H8monday



Why would schedule 40 or 80 which is nearly .250 wall, dent any easier in a straight run application than say .120 wall HREW or DOM?
I have used schedule 40 in the past, as rock gaurds, and they seem to be very durable.

Why? I dunno, it just does. Do you know how much weight 2".250 wall pipe is going to add to your rig? It would be worth it to use tube just for the weight savings, let alone the strength issues.

Originally posted by Nivloc


Like I said, weight isn't an issue for a lot of us, plus it's more like <100lbs more, not a ton. :flipoff2: The ERW had dents more likely because it was thinner walled than the DOM. The bottom line is, a lot of people say you can't/shouldn't build a cage out of pipe. I say bullshit, you can and it will be just as strong if not stronger than a similarly built cage made out of tube.

Nope, wall thickness was the same. I have never said you cannot make a safe cage out of pipe. I merely stated my opinion, that I wouldn't. If there is one place on an offroad rig that should be overbuilt, it is the cage. That's the part that's gonna save your ass when you really fawk up. I just don't think saving a few bucks on materials for a roll cage is worth the risk. I just ran the numbers and I only paid about 200 dollars for the tube in my cage. and that's for the internal and external parts. I only have $66.50 into tube for the internal cage. At that price why would I use anything less?

Dont get all fired up because you have to defend your points on here. Oh ya and smart ass you missed my piont. You may have the education to build a sound cage out of pipe but alot of people on here do not. How would you feel if somone who didnt understand the art of gusseting and putting pipe at the proper geomatry read the thread and built a poorly thought out cage togeather out of poor materials rolled and died??? (this is not me smoking a crack pipe I have been to 4 years of commercial and industrail plumbing school so I have a little eduction in this sort of thing also :flipoff2: )
Im not trying to belittle you I belive you have the knowledge to make the cage work but rember not everybody does. If you tell people that they can use cheaper shit They will. Why not build it stronger the first time around so you do not have to build it agine.

Originally posted by jeepin801
Dont get all fired up because you have to defend your points on here. Oh ya and smart ass you missed my piont. You may have the education to build a sound cage out of pipe but alot of people on here do not. How would you feel if somone who didnt understand the art of gusseting and putting pipe at the proper geomatry read the thread and built a poorly thought out cage togeather out of poor materials rolled and died??? (this is not me smoking a crack pipe I have been to 4 years of commercial and industrail plumbing school so I have a little eduction in this sort of thing also :flipoff2: )
Im not trying to belittle you I belive you have the knowledge to make the cage work but rember not everybody does. If you tell people that they can use cheaper shit They will. Why not build it stronger the first time around so you do not have to build it agine.

You can roll and die with a cage made out of treated 4130 chrome-moly tubing if it's not designed properly. What I'm trying to say is, that a cage made out of 2" Scd 80, which is cheap and commonly available, is going to be stronger than a similar one made out of 1.75"x0.120" DOM. But you're saying that if a person who's building a cage, but really doesn't know what they're doing should only use DOM because it's stronger than pipe. But in reality the 2" pipe is stronger than the 1.75" DOM, so by your logic they should use the pipe and not the DOM, right?

Well as you know 1.75 tube measures a true 1.75 O.D. 2" pipe has a larger than 2" O.D. yes its stronger in some situations AKA sch 80 but look at the weight difference. Adding 200 pounds to the top of a vehicle is different than adding it to the bottom. It raises your center of gravity alot more up top!!!! Heavier rigs roll harder you can do the math. You need a stronger cage so then it comes down to cage design. I agree with you cage design is importent. But so is material!!!! So to argue your point with you a well designd cage should not raise the COG verry much. weight of materials is importent is this aspect. I say go with the lighter and Stronger (size for size) tubing.

Originally posted by jeepin801
Well as you know 1.75 tube measures a true 1.75 O.D. 2" pipe has a larger than 2" O.D. yes its stronger in some situations AKA sch 80 but look at the weight difference. Adding 200 pounds to the top of a vehicle is different than adding it to the bottom. It raises your center of gravity alot more up top!!!! Heavier rigs roll harder you can do the math. You need a stronger cage so then it comes down to cage design. I agree with you cage design is importent. But so is material!!!! So to argue your point with you a well designd cage should not raise the COG verry much. weight of materials is importent is this aspect. I say go with the lighter and Stronger (size for size) tubing.

On the cage I'm building, made out of 2" Scd 40&80, it weighs in @ 267lbs. If I were to use 1.75"x0.120" DOM the weight would come in @ 136lbs. Quite a bit of difference. However, I doubt that a difference of 131lbs will significantly raise the CG on a 5000lb vehicle. Bottom line is, you can use pipe with just as much confidence as using DOM, that's all I'm trying say.

END INFINITE LOOP.

Originally posted by Nivloc


On the cage I'm building, made out of 2" Scd 40&80, it weighs in @ 267lbs. If I were to use 1.75"x0.120" DOM the weight would come in @ 136lbs. Quite a bit of difference. However, I doubt that a difference of 131lbs will significantly raise the CG on a 5000lb vehicle. Bottom line is, you can use pipe with just as much confidence as using DOM, that's all I'm trying say.

END INFINITE LOOP.

This info was taken from the numerous threads concerning this whole pipe vs tube. No original thought content :rasta:

ASTM A 53-A (Black Pipe) 30,000 Yield 48,000 Tensile
1020 HREW 38,000 Yield 52,000 Tensile
1020 DOM 60,000 Yield 70,000 Tensile

Looks like a big enough reason to go to the steelyard instead of the Home Depot.

Originally posted by oldjeep


This info was taken from the numerous threads concerning this whole pipe vs tube. No original thought content :rasta:

ASTM A 53-A (Black Pipe) 30,000 Yield 48,000 Tensile
1020 HREW 38,000 Yield 52,000 Tensile
1020 DOM 60,000 Yield 70,000 Tensile

Looks like a big enough reason to go to the steelyard instead of the Home Depot.

Ah, but you see, those numbers can be misleading to someone that doesn't understand them, as the yield stress can mean very little when a structural member is loaded axially in compression. Also, that's why you can use smaller members if you use 1020 DOM (compared to A53 pipe). That's why I was comparing 2" Scd 40&80 pipe to 1.75" DOM.

Bottom line....PIPE IS FOR PLUMBERS:flipoff2:

Originally posted by desertCJ
Bottom line....PIPE IS FOR PLUMBERS:flipoff2:
Bottom line....You're an assclown. Think McFly Think....
:flipoff2:

Fat, drunk and HOMO is no way to go through life son.
http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/lig/c/j/cj555/ccpic/rainbow-flag.gif

Originally posted by Nivloc


Ah, but you see, those numbers can be misleading to someone that doesn't understand them, as the yield stress can mean very little when a structural member is loaded axially in compression. Also, that's why you can use smaller members if you use 1020 DOM (compared to A53 pipe). That's why I was comparing 2" Scd 40&80 pipe to 1.75" DOM.

Possibly, but mine is all 2" tube. The thing that would concernme is that DOM and HREW are speced for structural use. A53 Pipe is speced for water steam and air.

Plumbing supplies aside, here's a question for you cage fabricators.

Anyone have a good design for a swing out door bar that actually adds some strength to the cage?

I was at the GSTA show this weekend (Hot rods) and saw a car with a nice cage and some hinged doorbars that looked like they were held closed with a very large trailer hitch pin. was curious if this does much good, or is it just for show.

Originally posted by oldjeep


Possibly, but mine is all 2" tube. The thing that would concernme is that DOM and HREW are speced for structural use. A53 Pipe is speced for water steam and air.

I spec out A53 all the time for structures. We rarely if ever use tubing (round) in structural engineering. Take a look in the AISC (American Institute of Steel Construction) Manual of Steel Construction, and you'll find out that A53 is in fact used in structures. In fact there is no mention of standard tubing sizes in there at all.

Bottom line....You're an assclown. Think McFly Think....

Why don't you keep your mronic ramblings out of the TOTW and prove that you really are a newbie somewhere else?:mad2: I haven't been here forever, but I don't spout off stupid shiat like that.:skull:

P.S. Actually you should build your cage out of pipe dude....hell why not try some EMT:flipoff2: I hear that it's some pretty sout stuff:rasta:

Originally posted by desertCJ


Why don't you keep your mronic ramblings out of the TOTW and prove that you really are a newbie somewhere else?:mad2: I haven't been here forever, but I don't spout off stupid shiat like that.:skull:

P.S. Actually you should build your cage out of pipe dude....hell why not try some EMT:flipoff2: I hear that it's some pretty sout stuff:rasta:

Hey you started it, I was just trying to be funny. Sorry, if you got offended, OK. BTW, I'm hardly a newbie, I just don't post much.

Originally posted by Nivloc


I spec out A53 all the time for structures. We rarely if ever use tubing (round) in structural engineering. Take a look in the AISC (American Institute of Steel Construction) Manual of Steel Construction, and you'll find out that A53 is in fact used in structures. In fact there is no mention of standard tubing sizes in there at all.

Note to self - stay out of buildings in Louisianna :D

Well don't quit your job to become a comedian:flipoff2: You'd have the whole audience waiting outback to kick your azz:smokin:

I still don't know why we are discussing using pipe....just do it right and use ERW or DOM tubing. I dont' have to make excuses for those materials:rasta:

i thought this post was for roll cage Q's & A's, not personal bickering

Originally posted by desertCJ
Well don't quit your job to become a comedian:flipoff2: You'd have the whole audience waiting outback to kick your azz:smokin:

I still don't know why we are discussing using pipe....just do it right and use ERW or DOM tubing. I dont' have to make excuses for those materials:rasta:

See that's the whole thing, A53b pipe IS BASICALLY THE SAME THING as 1010 ERW. If you actually knew anything about the materials we're talking about you might understand. It's really not that difficult of a concept, but anyway...I now see this as an exercise in futility, so....

Originally posted by oldjeep


Note to self - stay out of buildings in Louisianna :D
Hell ya and his rig lol..... Im kidding nivloc dont get your panties in a bunch:rainbow:

Originally posted by jeepin801

Hell ya and his rig lol..... Im kidding nivloc dont get your panties in a bunch:rainbow:

Note to self - stay out of buildings in Louisianna

Hey, that was a good one!:smokin: :beer:

i say its an excercise in get the fuck outta here- stop feedin your pipe bullshit that could get someone hurt. if you wanna use it, go ahead. your vast knowledge about it should save your life, but dont get other people killed because you wanted to be a hardass and go against the grain while trying to make an impression on the BB. game over - thanks for playin.... now,



i have a new question- which is stronger, a front hoop, or two separate bars that go back to the center hoop? (assuming spreaders are used in both situations)


- jake

Originally posted by JeeperJake
i say its an excercise in get the fuck outta here- stop feedin your pipe bullshit that could get someone hurt. if you wanna use it, go ahead. your vast knowledge about it should save your life, but dont get other people killed because you wanted to be a hardass and go against the grain while trying to make an impression on the BB. game over - thanks for playin.... now,



i have a new question- which is stronger, a front hoop, or two separate bars that go back to the center hoop? (assuming spreaders are used in both situations)


- jake

Nice job Sigmund Freud, "go against the grain"? That's what I'm doing, huh? Trying to make an impression, HERE? How would you like an nice cup of shut the f*ck up? All you are doing is showing your ignorance. I am a licensed professional engineer. It is in our creed to protect the public first. Now, if you chose to disregard the info I've brought here, fine. But the fact is, what I've said is true. Now, pull your head out your ass, and listen to someone that does this shit for a living, OK?

Originally posted by Nivloc


I spec out A53 all the time for structures. We rarely if ever use tubing (round) in structural engineering. Take a look in the AISC (American Institute of Steel Construction) Manual of Steel Construction, and you'll find out that A53 is in fact used in structures. In fact there is no mention of standard tubing sizes in there at all.

Civil E's:rolleyes: :flipoff2:

I hear what you are saying on the design. Most guys seem to add tons of shit that really doesn't add to the integrity of their cage.

I would like to know what the pressure drop is @ 40 GPM through your cage?:flipoff2:

You probably are specing pipe because customers are cheap bastards, usually:D

cool buddy- your trophy's in the mail. ill leave you the final word for your ego....

Originally posted by YJ_Swamper
i thought this post was for roll cage Q's & A's, not personal bickering

So did I, now the childish flaming has moved to the TOTW, time to lay the law down Mr. Moderator .... :(

Originally posted by Nivloc


I spec out A53 all the time for structures. We rarely if ever use tubing (round) in structural engineering. Take a look in the AISC (American Institute of Steel Construction) Manual of Steel Construction, and you'll find out that A53 is in fact used in structures. In fact there is no mention of standard tubing sizes in there at all.


I am a Construction Superintendent for a large GC. I have specialized in commercial construction for 20 years. Although I have used schedule 40 in many decorative facades and appendages on the building. When it comes to structural collumns, if they are not Wide Flange beam construction(as used in most moment frames), they are always Tube Steel. Granted this is of a structural scale greater to our cages. But to say that Tube Steel is not used in construction is a bit of reach.

Originally posted by LAME

[QUOTE]
Civil E's:rolleyes: :flipoff2: ???

I hear what you are saying on the design. Most guys seem to add tons of shit that really doesn't add to the integrity of their cage.Yep

I would like to know what the pressure drop is @ 40 GPM through your cage?:flipoff2: HaHa!

You probably are specing pipe because customers are cheap bastards, usually:D No, pipe is used as structural round members, more so than round tubing is. I don't know why that is so hard to believe, but it's true. If any of you have access to an AISC manual, look in it, and you'll see.

Look, I don't want this to turn into a flame war, and I apologize for the smartass comments. (I thought that's how things worked around here:flipoff2:) We've had several of these pipe vs. tube discussions here over the last year that I've participated in, but I've met this kind of resitance to using pipe on a cage.

Originally posted by H8monday



I am a Construction Superintendent for a large GC. I have specialized in commercial construction for 20 years. Although I have used schedule 40 in many decorative facades and appendages on the building. When it comes to structural collumns, if they are not Wide Flange beam construction(as used in most moment frames), they are always Tube Steel. Granted this is of a structural scale greater to our cages. But to say that Tube Steel is not used in construction is a bit of reach.

If you look in an AISC manual the members that may be used for columns, and they have load table for are:

wide flange beam, steel pipe (A53 or A500), structural tubing (square & rectangular), and double angle and tees which are used in briges and trusses. I do a lot of design in marine structures such as loading docks, berthing dolphins, offshore rigs, etc. We use steel pipe almost exclusively in the design of these structures because they have the same bending properties in any direction, and they corrode from only one side. Typically pipes aren't used in buildings because, you don't need that kind of symetry, the members aren't exposed to the weather (corrosion), the wide flange members are more efficient, and it's easier to make connections on a square section or beam than a pipe.

Originally posted by Nivloc


Like I said, weight isn't an issue for a lot of us, plus it's more like <100lbs more, not a ton. :flipoff2: The ERW had dents more likely because it was thinner walled than the DOM. The bottom line is, a lot of people say you can't/shouldn't build a cage out of pipe. I say bullshit, you can and it will be just as strong if not stronger than a similarly built cage made out of tube.

After wading through all the crap of this post (thanks to those that kept it civil), I have a couple of points/questions based on the above.

First, weight is an issue on a trail rig. 150 pounds extra in the cage, some 1/2" skid plates, etc add up to a lot of extra strain put on the drivetrain. I've learned that lesson and I'm trying to lighten the Jeep. For that reason, I'll choose lighter/stronger materials.

I'm sure you can build a strong cage out of pipe, as I'm sure you could build a stong cage out of PVC if you got the design right. But why? It's heaver, it's weaker and will require a much more precise design that will factor all different types of rollovers to be effective - moreso than a ERW or DOM cage will.

The stats posted above are misleading because of the load required? Show me stats that contradict or are more meaningful to our application. So far it's just "cause I'm paid to argue this shit". If you can't, take your credentials and stick 'em on another board. Maybe the "Look at me I'm a pompous civil engineer BBS". :flipoff2: Either way, I doubt many people will be joining the pipe bandwagon. Not until 420 anyway... :smokin:

If pipe is the Holy Grail of cage design, why aren't more people using it? Why aren't all the shops that build cages for trail rigs, race cars and whatever using the cheapest, easiest-to-find materials they can? Seems it would give them an edge on their competition... :rolleyes:

ERW and DOM for me please.

Paul

Originally posted by nasvik


After wading through all the crap of this post (thanks to those that kept it civil), I have a couple of points/questions based on the above.

First, weight is an issue on a trail rig. 150 pounds extra in the cage, some 1/2" skid plates, etc add up to a lot of extra strain put on the drivetrain. I've learned that lesson and I'm trying to lighten the Jeep. For that reason, I'll choose lighter/stronger materials.

I'm sure you can build a strong cage out of pipe, as I'm sure you could build a stong cage out of PVC if you got the design right. But why? It's heaver, it's weaker and will require a much more precise design that will factor all different types of rollovers to be effective - moreso than a ERW or DOM cage will.

The stats posted above are misleading because of the load required? Show me stats that contradict or are more meaningful to our application. So far it's just "cause I'm paid to argue this shit". If you can't, take your credentials and stick 'em on another board. Maybe the "Look at me I'm a pompous civil engineer BBS". :flipoff2: Either way, I doubt many people will be joining the pipe bandwagon. Not until 420 anyway... :smokin:

If pipe is the Holy Grail of cage design, why aren't more people using it? Why aren't all the shops that build cages for trail rigs, race cars and whatever using the cheapest, easiest-to-find materials they can? Seems it would give them an edge on their competition... :rolleyes:

ERW and DOM for me please.

Paul

First of all, I never said pipe was better. I said you can use it and safely, especially if weight is not a concern. I just don't like seing the pipe is for plumbers comments. I don't know how many times I have to say this, but ERW (1010) TUBE has a yield stress of around 35,000 psi, A53b PIPE is also ERW and has a yield stress of 35,000 psi. They are very similar materials. I think it is silly that you would use ERW TUBE and not PIPE. Now, I said comparing yield stresses can be misleading because when a structural member is loaded in compression, buckling is more of a factor than the yield, therefore the section properties (area, radius of gyration, etc.) or how fat the tube/pipe is more relevant.

This isn't the first one of these threads I've been envolved in. There are a lot of people that have built cages out of pipe with no problems. Finally, I'm not some pencil necked geek with a pocket protector, arguing just for the sake of science. I've built my rig from the ground up and I've been doing this shit for a long time now.

I did a search about the HREW vs. DOM tubing a couple of months ago prior to building my cage. I bought a Smittybuilt rollbar and the weld-in front hoop. After consulting my boss (Head materials guy for Boeing back in the 60's), I pitched the rollbar(not really it's for sale :D ) and bent up a new center hoop out of HREW. Design is the Key! You need to support the load perpendicular to it's direction. The easiest way to do this is with two structural X's, one in the center hoop, and one overhead. I have a support from the center hoop back. I also tied the center hoop to the front hoop, more to mount my seats within the cage than anything else.
As for the DOM vs. HREW, DOM is awesome, and EXPENSIVE! And overkill for what I need in a cage. I bought 40' of HREW for $60 from the local steel yard, I was afraid to ask what DOM would be for the same dimensions.

Just my .02

What yard do you buy your tube from? Last tube I bought I got from Morton's in Yakima, it was quite a bit more than you paid though.

Originally posted by Nivloc

On the cage I'm building, made out of 2" Scd 40&80, it weighs in @ 267lbs. If I were to use 1.75"x0.120" DOM the weight would come in @ 136lbs. Quite a bit of difference. However, I doubt that a difference of 131lbs will significantly raise the CG on a 5000lb vehicle..."


I'd hate to have an extra 131 lbs. high on top of my rig...
It wants to roll over too easy as it is!
Why not just put yer spare tire up there too? :flipoff2:
Ya'll 'd better stick to that flat land delta Lose'ana mud...
So go ahead and plumb the heck out of your cage for all I care, Klunky...

...surrounded by idiots....I press on......

Originally posted by Nivloc
...surrounded by idiots....I press on......

To where? We're all anxious to know. :rolleyes:

Paul

Ahhhhh?? What's going on here???

Regardless, when I get some time and my own equipment. I will build my cage out of 1.75 x.120 CRMO. All GTA Welded. Why? Because I don't care about weight, because I can, and I want to. Untill then my present cage is 1.75x.120 CFE HREW tube.

I would love to use Ti, but I don't think I could afford a bender to do it. WHY would I use Ti? Because I can and it would be different!

I will continue to look into Ti more though. Ahhh, it would be strong and look sweet, just clear coat it.

It's all about look; functionallity is second... Right?:flipoff2:

Last post on the subject.

I wish some of you would actually read the friggin' posts.

OK, for the last time. I never said building a cage out of pipe was better than using tubing. If I had a choice, I would definately use 1020 DOM, but I can't find the crap around here. I said that if weight wasn't a concern, and it isn't for a lot of people, that you could. Some people don't have access to places that sell tubing and pipe is usually easier to find. So go ahead and flame away.:flipoff2: later...

Originally posted by Magoo
Design is the Key! You need to support the load perpendicular to it's direction
Just my .02

Yes design is key, but you aren't gonna ever get a perfect perpindicular load on a cage...which opens up a another can of worms......anyway, found some cage specs for SCCA junk.




per GCR 18.1.6

B. for Formula, SR, GT, Prod catagory, main and front
hoop:
1500-2500lbs, 1.50x.095 Mild steel, 1.375x.095 Alloy
steel
Over 2500lbs, 1.50x.120 or 1.75x.095 Mild Steel,
1.50x.095 Alloy Steel

C for SS, IT, AS, main and front hoop, downtubes, rear
supports, diagonal:
1501-2200lbs, 1.500x.095 DOM/ Seamless Alloy,
1.500x.120 ERW.
2201-3000lbs 1.500x.120 DOM/ Seamless Alloy,
1.750x.120 ERW

Main hoop 4 bends maximum totalling 180 degrees.
Front hoop 4 bends maximum totalling 180 degrees.
Rear hoop supports; no bends.
If any of the above requirements cannot be met, all
components shall be fabricated from tubing sizes
listed for the next heavier category.

D For purposes of determining tubing sizes, the
vehicle weight is as raced without fuel and driver.

Man, this thread *could* have contained a lot of good information that people could refer to when they are building a cage. Too bad it turned into a pissing match eh?

I'm trying to design my first cage.
I'm an Mech. Engr. I know about materials and the costs.

I want to know about some designs! Good grief.

Any topic but PIPE vs. TUBE!:barf:

I have a welder and a friend that will bend tubing. I just wanted to see some good cages. I would love to see some solutions for the front down tubes.

I want to put the windshield down and I want room for my feet in my CJ 7.

I have short legs and my sear is all the way forward.

My idea for the windshield was to put pin through two plates on each side of the windshield, much like a door hinge. I could pull the pin and drop the windshield. Any thoughts?

Originally posted by Nivloc
Some of you backyard fabricators don't have a friggin' clue. How many times on these message boards have I read "pipe is for plumbers" or some crap like "use tubing, since your life may depend on it". Now, once again, it is just fine to build a cage out of pipe. Yeah that's right, plain ole A53b water pipe. ERW, seamless, DOM, steel grade, yield stress, all of that really makes little difference if a cage is not designed properly. Design is the key, not materials. I'm building a cage for my CJ out of 2" Scd 40 & 80 PIPE and I guarantee it will be MUCH, MUCH stronger than some of the crap thrown together out of TUBING that I've seen on some of these message boards. The whole point of using stuff like 1020 DOM or 4130 tubing is that you can build a lighter cage because you can use thinner walled members. That's usually not a concern for most of us though. Just remember DESIGN and proper construction is key, not the materials you use. So please people, quit saying crap like "pipe is for plumbers" because it's simply not true.

So give us some design rules?
I was earlier asking about bend angles vs strength, no answer?
dos and donts.

Yes if you weld enough metal PIPE it will be strong but will add alot of weight high on the vehicle(BAD)! Dome is 40% stronger so thats 40% lighter if designed correct, or will need 40% less supports with DOM, so you might be able to fit inside the cage when your done. Yes pipe can work but DOM has MANY advantages.

so give some pointers pipe or DOM






:barf:

thankfully that guy left so lets leave pipe alone:


which is stronger, a front hoop or 2 down bars with dash spreaders, that come back to the center hoop?


- jake

I was searchin' for different cage designs, and this one not only looks bad @$$, but I think its designed well enough to handle some pretty hard hits. This company makes cages for TJs,YJs, and CJs. Check em out.

http://bigdogcustomfab.com

This is one of there TJ cages...they seam to make like 3 different TJ designs.

http://bigdogcustomfab.homestead.com/files/cobyscageX.jpg

At the very least this can give us all some diffent ideas. I actually have the OR fab kit in mine. Its plent for my needs. I'm not hardcore enough to need something like this yet.:D

Pipe vs. tube :rolleyes: yeah whatever. I can make a rollcage out of balsa wood that would be safe (for one use), but talk about poor choice of materials for the application. Three things matter around here... weight, strength, and cost. Before you know it we'll be discussing solid rod vs tube (d-shaft discussion anyone? :flipoff2: ) :D

Last design looks pretty cool. Not clear in the pic but I assume there's a horizontal bar behind the seats? This would be a great thread for pointing out the do's and don'ts of racing seatbelt mounting. Gotta get that bar at the right height and distance behind the seat or kiss your spine goodbye :eek: This should be obvious too, but the seats should mount to the cage (didn't notice this mentioned yet, but then I skimmed over a page worth of pipe crap). A solid cage doesn't mean jack if your seat tears out of the floor and sends you flying. :(

Yeah, made that mistake once. Had a 53 CJ3B, rolled it over 11 times :skull: down the side of a hill, everything flew out, both batteries, 4 friends :confused: and my seat. Good thing I had the harness

Originally posted by MellowYellow

I have a welder and a friend that will bend tubing. I just wanted to see some good cages. I would love to see some solutions for the front down tubes.

I want to put the windshield down and I want room for my feet in my CJ 7.

I have short legs and my sear is all the way forward.

My idea for the windshield was to put pin through two plates on each side of the windshield, much like a door hinge. I could pull the pin and drop the windshield. Any thoughts? [/B]

I used a Smittybuilt kit for a CJ without the dash pad. Keeps the front hoop closer to the dash.

Originally posted by MellowYellow
I want to put the windshield down and I want room for my feet in my CJ 7.

I have short legs and my sear is all the way forward.

My idea for the windshield was to put pin through two plates on each side of the windshield, much like a door hinge. I could pull the pin and drop the windshield. Any thoughts?

Look back up before all the pipe chit, I have a picture or two this setup in my CJ, like Tommy posted. If you space it out so that it doesn't rattle, there's no reason to tie the windshield to the cage. If you absolutely have to have the space, I would use a rubber bumper/puck like the ones on the TJ hoods to keep it from rattling.

Sorry for the pipe crap guys. Anyway, here is an Autocad drawing of the cage I'm putting in my CJ. It's been tweaked a little bit since this image to get the angles right and I reversed the "V" braces on top. The rear hoop and front legs are 2" Scd 80, the top hoop is 2" Scd 40 and the rest is 1.5" Scd 40. The whole thing weighs in @ around 215 lbs, mostly due to the Scd 80 rear hoop, which is probably overkill. Also, the rear hoop and the front legs will tie into the frame through some brackets and poly spacers. Now if I can just find time to finish the damn thing.

http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/lig/c/j/cj555/ccpic/a/cage1.jpg

Just a little FYI, these structures are made from A53 pipe and are designed to absorb ship impacts.

http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/lig/c/j/cj555/ccpic/a/uss%20kid%20mooring.jpg
http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/lig/c/j/cj555/ccpic/a/mvc-002f.jpg

Originally posted by Nivloc
Sorry for the pipe crap guys. Anyway, here is an Autocad drawing of the cage I'm putting in my CJ. It's been tweaked a little bit since this image to get the angles right and I reversed the "V" braces on top. The rear hoop and front legs are 2" Scd 80, the top hoop is 2" Scd 40 and the rest is 1.5" Scd 40. The whole thing weighs in @ around 215 lbs, mostly due to the Scd 80 rear hoop, which is probably overkill. Also, the rear hoop and the front legs will tie into the frame through some brackets and poly spacers. Now if I can just find time to finish the damn thing.

http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/lig/c/j/cj555/ccpic/a/cage1.jpg


Get some cross braces for the seat:flipoff2: A53 isn't gonna do much if you are flailing around outside the jeep 'cus the cage busted:)

Here is a quick, simple one I tossed together...anyone pick it apart:)

Originally posted by LAME


Get some cross braces for the seat:flipoff2: A53 isn't gonna do much if you are flailing around outside the jeep 'cus the cage busted:)

Here is a quick, simple one I tossed together...anyone pick it apart:)

I'm no engineer, but I'd replace those 2 center spreaders with a single or double diagonal if that will give you enough headroom.

Something like this.

some of you said that dom was too much money what are your prices. I can get dom1.75 1.20 for $1.95pr ft I did not think that was a bad price. Is it ? thanks

Originally posted by oldjeep


I'm no engineer, but I'd replace those 2 center spreaders with a single or double diagonal if that will give you enough headroom.

Yep:)

I got a guy to test my cage designs for me, so I am gonna do a bunch of different ideas, and use the MECH E's here at work for further input on maximizing the lightness to strength ratio:)

JD2 is gonna be here in a month, gotta do some planning:D

Originally posted by One Big Zuk
some of you said that dom was too much money what are your prices. I can get dom1.75 1.20 for $1.95pr ft I did not think that was a bad price. Is it ? thanks

Same around here.

2" x .120 HREW between .50 and .70 a pound
2" x .120 DOM - about $2.50 a foot, cheaper if you buy a lot of it.

Originally posted by LAME


JD2 is gonna be here in a month, gotta do some planning:D

Sounds like someone wants to bend me some door bars :D

Originally posted by LAME


Here is a quick, simple one I tossed together...anyone pick it apart:)

Like Oldjeep said, I would x-brace the top. Pretty much, the more triangle you have the more rigid your cage will be. Adding a few knee braces wouldn't hurt either, if you can fit them in.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?s=&postid=497565

I have a 76 cj-5 with a factory rear cage and a smittybuilt front hoop/spreader bars. The front is tied into the frame with MORE outriggers. I want to reinforce the rear of the cage because it currently just bolts to the top of the wheel wells.
Has anyone used these bolt on rear outriggers from J&L offroad? They are made with two seperate pieces so that they can move and flex with the body & frame. Do these even seem like a good idea?

Rear tie-ins
http://www.jl4wd.com/outrigger.htm

This guy used them in his buildup (includes pics showing the two seperate pieces)
http://jeepskate.4x4.org/Rollcage.htm

For those that are mounting your seats to the cage, do you make your own seat brackets too? I’m too short to have my seat any higher. In fact I was going to lower my seat a tad. I assume your seatbelt is also attached to the cage.

Has anyone taken the roll bar through the dash of a CJ? Was it worth it? That is some valuable relestate to me. It sucks having short legs. :D

“LAME”, will you post your findings? I’d like to hear more.
I was going to do the 4-spreader type cage too, like your drawing.
I want to mount my electronics on the middle two, much like “bluesman2a”, but I want my CB up there for sure.

I will make the back a little more robust to protect my daughter in the back seat. I was thinking of starting with a YJ roll bar. Anyone have a lead on where to find one?

bluesman2a, I wasn’t very clear. I don’t want to tie the windshield to the cage. I want to find a way to replace those big hand screws that will be behind the front legs of the cage.

bluesman2a, I wasn’t very clear. I don’t want to tie the windshield to the cage. I want to find a way to replace those big hand screws that will be behind the front legs of the cage. [/B][/QUOTE]

Just use a 3/8 bolt and keep a 9/16 wrench handy. That's what I used to do

I don't have a cj, but my cage goes through the dash on my YJ. I can still roll up the windows on my full doors, and it doesn't take up any leg room.

http://personal.atl.bellsouth.net/lig/c/j/cj555/ccpic/a/cage1.jpg

I think it would be a mistake when you said you were going to reverse the overhead 'V' spreaders.
You would be bringing the legs of the 'V' directly over head.
Mine is not only like your diagram, additionally my spreaders are 'peaked' allowing even more over head clearance.
I'm only 5'7" and would't want the bars ANY closer to my noggin than they are now.
The chances your head will contact a direct overhead spreader while crashing down on your lid is much greater than any rock coming into a small but open overhead space.
This is ace hard core designer Jim Peterson's trade mark cage feature based on many years and tons of roll over experience here in Farmington.

The photo is a little decieving, but actually the legs of the 'V' tie in with equal spacing on the top front tubing, effectively triangulating the top structure.

http://www.monsterslayer.com/jeep/images/Cage1.jpg

Originally posted by Jaffer

I think it would be a mistake when you said you were going to reverse the overhead 'V' spreaders.
You would be bringing the legs of the 'V' directly over head.
Mine is not only like your diagram, additionally my spreaders are 'peaked' allowing even more over head clearance.
I'm only 5'7" and would't want the bars ANY closer to my noggin than they are now.
The chances your head will contact a direct overhead spreader while crashing down on your lid is much greater than any rock coming into a small but open overhead space.
This is ace hard core designer Jim Peterson's trade mark cage feature based on many years and tons of roll over experience here in Farmington.

The photo is a little decieving, but actually the legs of the 'V' tie in with equal spacing on the top front tubing, effectively triangulating the top structure.



The only reason for me reversing them was that I was going to put my CB and some toggle switches up there in a console. Strenthwise, it's about the same according to my structural analysis program. But you're right, I probably won't have much head clearance there. I guess I can run a spreader bar in between the V to mount the console on, or make the configuration similar to yours. Thanks for the heads up, literally!

just thought I would jump in with a pic of mine. Its a smittybilt front cage, with a spreader across the stock bar for the harnesses, with the cage sandwiching the body in front and riggers in the rear for frame tie in

http://images.cardomain.com/installs/128000-128999/128573_161_full.jpg

http://images.cardomain.com/installs/128000-128999/128573_167_full.jpg

http://images.cardomain.com/installs/128000-128999/128573_50_full.jpg

Triangles in cages are good. they are a non-colapsable structure. having an X I would think is even stronger for impacts. I was looking at some race car cage designs and to race certain classes an X is required for side impact protection.

I had a few question.. I was also concerned about the halo design because of what happened to curries rig. It doesnt seem like its that good of an idea because of how poorly it failed. Is a halo the best way to go? or use some different hoop approach? Also anybody have any info on the proper placement of the rear bar so that 4 point seat belts can be hooked up?

Originally posted by Eric Ruhl
Last design looks pretty cool. Not clear in the pic but I assume there's a horizontal bar behind the seats? This would be a great thread for pointing out the do's and don'ts of racing seatbelt mounting. Gotta get that bar at the right height and distance behind the seat or kiss your spine goodbye :eek:
A little more explanation please.
Right now, I still have stock seats and belts in the YJ, but at some point that will change. What I have right now is a stock YJ roll bar with a halo added up front going down to the floor. You can't really run a bar across behind the seats because the seats sit too far back in relation to the stock roll bar.

After sifting through the posts, (or trying to) I feel that the main topic was only lightly touched upon. Maybe more was said that I missed, but I'll re-read this TOTW anyway.

Now the fun begins.
What about cages for a hardtop? (ie: Cherokee XJ, & so on).
I can see how a exo-cage can save your sheetmetal and glass, but at the same time the added "material" ( DOM, HREW, ETC.) would displace more weight into the factor, and I definitely would like to keep the center of gravity as low as I can help it.
An internal cage would be an ideal set-up if it didn't take up valuable space.
Something else to consider. I have seen this similar topic elsewhere on the pirate BB. Do-it-yourself? Or let a shop build it for you? If your welding skills are up to par, then go ahead and build your own cage. But if you are not so hot with a welder, (like me) then you would definitely want some one experienced to build your cage. This is my biggest safety issue.

I have an innovative design idea for my XJ that I would like to use for my Cherokee, but I don't have the equipment or the skills to successfully pull this off. If you would like to see my innovative design and to offer your comments/suggestions, please Email me here @pirate4x4.com. THANX IN ADVANCE.

I'll be keeping my eyes on this thread for any new developments. ;)

There was a lenghty cage design discussion last fall on ORC and the consensus was that for a four point or five point harness, the top belts should be anchored approx. two inches above shoulder height.
This is because (I believe it was sprint cars) too many drivers were getting broken collar bones if the upper harness was anchored below the top of the shoulder.

Originally posted by 84scrambler
.......... I was also concerned about the halo design because of what happened to curries rig. It doesnt seem like its that good of an idea because of how poorly it failed. .......

Could someone post a pic of this failed cage..

also point out what is a Hoop... and what is a Halo

Here are some pics of the custom TJ cage that Elmer Chapman built for my rig. Pics of the build up at http://www.yellowtj.com Elmer's site http://www.bigdogcustomfab.com
http://yellowtj.homestead.com/files/cage8.jpg

http://yellowtj.homestead.com/files/cage1.jpg

Regards
MT

Originally posted by CA_YJ
I don't have a cj, but my cage goes through the dash on my YJ. I can still roll up the windows on my full doors, and it doesn't take up any leg room.



how did you put it through the dash?!?! got any pics of it and closeups of the dash? thanks!

- jake

Nice cage MT! Dig its design.

My kids would enjoy playing in that one.:D

Have we touched on the topic, "homemade, or pro-shop"

I'm sure there are a lot of competent welders out there, but there has been some stuff that I have seen that I wouldn't trust tying my dog to.:D
(I'll search more later)

Originally posted by Nivloc


The only reason for me reversing them was that I was going to put my CB and some toggle switches up there in a console. Strenthwise, it's about the same according to my structural analysis program. But you're right, I probably won't have much head clearance there. I guess I can run a spreader bar in between the V to mount the console on, or make the configuration similar to yours. Thanks for the heads up, literally!

The spreaders in my cage are in a V shape oriented the same as your diagram, they are also bent for more head clearance, and I have never hit my head on them. I LIKE having a spreader directly over my head cuz that gives me the maximum protection from rocks.

Originally posted by JeeperJake




how did you put it through the dash?!?! got any pics of it and closeups of the dash? thanks!

- jake


Ya I have pics. Give me about 20 min.

Here are some recent pics of my cage.

http://www.thejeepsite.com/hammers/wrecking_ball/CRW_2443.jpg

http://www.thejeepsite.com/hammers/wrecking_ball/CRW_2470.jpg

http://www.thejeepsite.com/hammers/wrecking_ball/CRW_2503.jpg

If you look closely you will see that the front legs go through the dash. I have to ditch my speakers to do this, but I gain leg room. I also can use full doors without having to open the door to roll down the window. I also don't catch my foot when I try to hop out and land on my face. Here is a better shot of a friend's cage. He and I have the same setup only I run the rear halo hoop.

http://www.rev1crawlers.com/jeepsite.com/cage/DSCN0171.JPG

http://www.rev1crawlers.com/jeepsite.com/cage/DSCN0170.JPG

1

2

I am running 2 X's in my cage. One behind the front seats, and one from front to rear. If you think of the direction the load (impact) can come from it makes sense to have a strong structure right behind you. I welded up everything except the X's last Sat, and hopefully I'll finish this weekend. As for quality welds I am having all of mine inspected by a former college welding instructor (my dad). The only reason he isn't welding is his eyes aren't what they used to be (he can still see the welds :flipoff2: ). I will tie the seats into the cage as well. I can't post pics but if some one wants to see what I have done under the shade tree I do have a digital camera.

Originally posted by Nivloc
If I had a choice, I would definately use 1020 DOM, but I can't find the crap around here.

Just out of Curosity have you tried any of these places?

AMERICAN UTILITY METALS
343 3RD ST
BATON ROUGE, LA

CAPITOL STEEL INC
2655 N FOSTER DR
BATON ROUGE, LA

INNOVATIVE BUILDING CONCEPTS
2375 WISTERIA ST
BATON ROUGE, LA

LENCO ALLOYS
7836 N AIRWAY DR
BATON ROUGE, LA

PAC STAINLESS LTD
7115 REVENUE DR
BATON ROUGE, LA

RYERSON TULL
7924 RECO AVE
BATON ROUGE, LA

SAMUEL SPECIALTY METALS
1848 BEAUMONT DR
BATON ROUGE, LA

SPECIALTY ALLOYS
4440 S JEFFREY DR
BATON ROUGE, LA

SUPERIOR STEEL CO
10757 N DUAL DR
BATON ROUGE, LA

I wonder did you even look?

Hey nivloc, how does that schedule 80 pipe bend. Isn't brittle huh? Brett

so is the one triangulated bar up top stronger then the duel spreaders (that run from the rear to the front) that
rockhard and most of the other cages use?

:confused: :beer:

I would say yes because if you use a triangle you produce a rigid structure. A rigid structure is alot less likely to colapse then a square. You also get alot more suport at the corners. Corners usually recieve the most stress under a load and therefore should be reinforced. Also if you look around, almost every racecar design out there has triangles incorported into there cage.

Wow super information folks. I am considering rebuilding my cage at this point. Glad to see the pipe war is over.

Something that should be pointed out for those of you who would like to use 4130. There are some particular techniques for getting good welds, that won't fracture. Basically chrome molly will become embrittled if welded without a constant temperature. I have read that just the movement of air can induce this effect. so shut the damn door.

Originally posted by ALEX Bronco
Hey nivloc, how does that schedule 80 pipe bend. Isn't brittle huh? Brett

All steel, unless it has been treated, has the same physical properties. So A53 pipe would be no more brittle than 1020 tubing. The 2" is kinda tough to bend with my cheap ass Harbor Freight bender, but it does bend.

Also, to answer Sharp's question. A cage with no triangulation in it...BAD, very bad, as it could fold up like a tent. A cage braced in the proper spots...berry berry good.

you brought this thread back from April of 2002 to ask about buying a tubing bender?:rolleyes:

looks like it :rolleyes:

I'll weigh in on this one. Built mine out of a stock late model YJ bar, a Smittybuilt CJ hoop kit, and supplimental HREW for the dash, door sills, and rear spreader. All in all, got about $300 into it total, including electrical. Late model YJ cages (direct bolt-in to CJ's) and kits are a nice solution for those of us with basic welding skills, but no access to quality benders.

It's a first effort and other than electrical (which I'm pretty fawking proud of) doesn't hold a candle to what some of the :bender: artists around here turn out. On the :massey: electrical, it's got its own 150 amp resettable marine breaker, 4 ga power/ground feeds, and a 10 gang fuse/ground distribution block (notice the nice hinged door with the thumbscrews).


http://tellico.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/9-684162-01150025.JPG
http://tellico.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/9-684165-01150017.JPG
http://tellico.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/9-684190-01150037.JPG
http://tellico.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/9-684221-02110004.JPG http://bbs.off-road.com/wwwthreads_uploads/9-684158-01150029.JPG:beer:

That looks awesome! I am wanting to get a roll cage after talking with some guy's on a NM forum. I am not a welder at all. Is this something I could buy?

Saleen, you do realize your bringing back up thread that are 4-5 years old. This is Pirate, look much more, post much less. Your not even a day old. Welcome to pirate. :flipoff2:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v395/numba1goalie/Funnay/btt.jpg

:flipoff2:

Bringing this back in hopes more will post. This thread has so much more potential, I'm suprised it died so fast back then.

Most of the pic links are broken now anyways so Bring it awn!:mr-t:

i have a new question- which is stronger, a front hoop, or two separate bars that go back to the center hoop? (assuming spreaders are used in both situations)
- jake

I dont wanna be bringing old topics back to the top but I would really like to get a good answer on this question.


i like the idea of making a full front hoop that goes from left to right but i would have to have that custom made. two parallel side bars and a front spreader would be much easier for me to fabricate at home. of course i would triangulate everything and make it strong, but i just wanted someone with more expertise (sp?) to give me their opinion

i'm out of jersey and i made my own cage. i wish i had seen this thread before i had too cause i went a little overboard haha. Its all made of 1.75 .120 wall DOM. at the A B and C pillars i made it bolt on with 4 grade 8 bolts and some 1/4" plate. I then sleeved the inside of the tube with pieces of 1.5 by .120 wall DOM on the inside to reduce sheerload. Since these pics i've added a spreader in the rear to tie in my new shock mounts with stantions to the upper portion of the cage. any thoughts would be great.

http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww295/stoked218/l_b4c05fe2bc1dad927ec54bd4180c2937.jpg
http://i729.photobucket.com/albums/ww295/stoked218/l_b2c8af552bb71136fc0d7caba1501840.jpg

EDIT: the lower picture is from before i did the 4-link in the rear.

good thread except for the pipe war:shaking:.
too bad all the pics are gone:shaking:

I haven't seen the double B pillar yet so I will post mine.

The reason for my Double B is that you will notice that my shit ain't light.

I prefer living after a full out back flop.

http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/41099/2541475070066781137S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2541475070066781137bRBIoT)

Here's how I tied the cage in. I would suggest not fucking around with tie ins. Last thing you want to worry about.

http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/42012/2658173840066781137S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2658173840066781137vldDqR)

1/4" wall 4x4 to a plate welded to both B pillars

http://inlinethumb08.webshots.com/10439/2083540770066781137S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2083540770066781137ezkbUR)

the rest of the cage

http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/20356/2468938170066781137S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2468938170066781137cJhJvb)

wow that is a mean looking cage in the last pic.