Wire and conduit questions

[cj7jeep81]

I'm getting ready to bury some conduit for my future shop. It won't be going up for a few years, but I'm getting ready to build a deck that will go over top where I will need to run the wire, so I'd rather bury the conduit now (far enough out to be past the deck) towards where the shop will be, then I'll fish the wire later.

I'm planning on running 200 Amp service to the shop, and need to new what size conduit to bury. I have access to some 2" conduit that I'm hoping is big enough (its free), but if needed, I could buy some 3". Also, what guage wire would run, considering the total run would be somewhere between 60 and 100 feet?

Thanks!

[Aces'n'8s]

I'm getting ready to bury some conduit for my future shop. It won't be going up for a few years, but I'm getting ready to build a deck that will go over top where I will need to run the wire, so I'd rather bury the conduit now (far enough out to be past the deck) towards where the shop will be, then I'll fish the wire later.

I'm planning on running 200 Amp service to the shop, and need to new what size conduit to bury. I have access to some 2" conduit that I'm hoping is big enough (its free), but if needed, I could buy some 3". Also, what guage wire would run, considering the total run would be somewhere between 60 and 100 feet?

Thanks!

2/0 THHN cable will be sufficient for those hots on this run. As for the nuetral run , you can drop down two sizes, I would go with #1 cable. Since it's a detached building, you're going to have to sink a ground rod. For this, I would use #6 bare even though I believe #8 is acceptable. Also, for runs of < 300', voltage drop really isn't that much of a concern.

NEC will permit you to bury 1.5" conduit, but I would absolutely HATE to fish 2-2/0 and 1 #1 cables through 1.5"....so I would suggest using 2" conduit. Remember, PVC should be no < 18" and rigid conduit no < 6" deep in ground. But, you're going to need a master electrician to pull the appropriate permits; so, he should know exactly how deep to dig the trench as local elec. codes may vary.

[cj7jeep81]

thanks for the advice. like i said, i already have 2" pvc conduit, so I'll bury that. since i need to bury it in the next week or two, and won't actually be pulling wire for a year or two, i'll just bury it myself. i'm renting a trencher for some other work, so i'll find out my local codes and bury it according to that. i'm also going to bury some conduit above it for a phone line as well. what's the general rule of thumb for separation between the two?

[PAToyota]

I had a similar situation - other work was going to interfere with the eventual power to the shop. Mine was about 200' with a 200amp panel at the shop. I went overkill and used 3" conduit and increased to 4" at either end and used 45 degree elbows to turn it up out of the ground at both ends. I used bundled cable instead of individual lines and it was still a bear to pull through. Be sure to run a pull line through as you assemble the conduits, makes life easier as does using that electrical lube.

[D60]

Different approaches............I might consider running 4/0 Al direct bury, but I guess since you're not gonna be using it for a few years that could be impractical.

I've always been told 12" separation between fone and electric.

Aces' info is state specific; in Colo any homeowner can pull a permit for any work, provided it's your residence and isn't a building that is open to the general public. Check Indiana codes, a web search should get you to the home page for the state inspector's office, unless you have even smaller municipalities that govern this?

I certainly wouldn't pull a permit now, and if you do make sure it doesn't expire in one year. Altho you might find out how anal your local inspectors are about checking depth. If you think you're gonna need to prove that the WHOLE run really is buried deep enough, maybe take pics and even save your receipt from the excavator rental. My local inspector will let you backfill the trench except at either end; if it's deep enough at both ends that's sufficient for him to show that the cable is buried deep enough throughout.

[fj40charles]

A homeowner can pull their own permit and do their own work as long as they own the house. You have to be a licensed electrician if doing work on someone else's house.

I'd ask the local city for local code concerning depth of conduit and the size of wire. Better to know ahead of time before doing the work.

Be sure to photograph the trench where the conduit is buried. Use a tape measure or something else to show the depth of the trench. This will come in real handy if the conduit is already buried and the inspector want to see what you did.

What size is your home panel? Does your electrial meter base support another 200AMP panel or will you get another service dropped in?

[cj7jeep81]

I'll call the county and see what they say before I do anything. Thanks for all the advice.

fj40, when I had the house built, I had the electric company install a 400 amp meter base, and the electrician put in two 200 amp panels off that. One feeds my house panel and panel in my basement. The other (currently not being used) will feed the shop and any other outdoor stuff.

[Aces'n'8s]

Okay....different jurisdictions maintain different regulations concerning who is permissable to perform electrical servicing on a residential structure.

Check your local electrical codes and ordinances.

In Shelby County, even if a resident knows how to do the work, he/she must have a certified Master electrician file for and secure an electrical permit. Meanwhile, in the next county to the east, Fayette county, no permit or subsequent electrical inspection is necessary....and that's is a scary thought.

I have been told by many an electrical inspector and an insurance salesman, if a fire or related electrical damage occurs as a result of homeowner error, the insurance company will most likely try with all their might to withhold a reasonable settlement. But, they would likely do that anyway because that's what insurance companies do....so take that heresay with a grain of salt.

Around here, if you "have" to bury the conduit before inspection, it is advisable that one leave an open spot about every 20'-30' for inspection. But, every once in a while, a new inspector will fail someone for doing this...

[cj7jeep81]

Thanks for all the info. I call the county inspector (Ripley county), and see what they recommend for my situation. Thanks again!

[james13242]

I would also consider installing a pull string in the conduit. This will make it easier to go back and pull your cables later. In your second conduit for low voltage I would pull 2 CAT5e twisted pair cables (one for phone and one for data) as well as a RG6quad-shield cable for CATV. Even if you may not be using them right away the small added cost will be made up by time savings later. Once again, leaving pull strings in place will make future additions more painless.

[Aces'n'8s]

While it may sound good in theory, I have found that "pull strings" cause more problems down the road. Nylon string as an uncanny ability to create a lot of friction inside PVC...(ex. you can cut PVC with nylon string for tight quarters)...especially when there are 90's close together (at a meter, panel). But, if one plans to pull some coaxial or telephone lines, nlyon string would likely suffice as a pull string.

Yet, when one needs to pull some heavy cable or wire, a steel fishtape, IMO, is by far, the best method to birth a line through RESIDENTIAL conduit.

[TBM Jeep]

A better (also a bit more expensive) way to do this would be to install rigid 90's instead of using pvc 90's. The rope/string WILL cut into the pvc 90's and go through the pvc. Seen it happen, and it's a real pain in the ass to fix. Sure the rigid 90's and pvc adapters will cost a bit more, but then you can pull the rope/string along the metal 90's without a single worry that they might cut into the conduit.

You can fish a pull rope in at a later date pretty easily seeing that you have such a short run anyways. Just buy a 200-240' steel fishtape with a case and use it to pull in a rope (you will likely have a need for the fish tape when you do the electrical work in the shop anyways). A good 3/8" rope with an eye splice at the end will be much easier to pull in those feeders than using a steel fish tape. Personally i think it would be easier to serve the cables onto an eye splice on a rope rather than the smaller bent over end on a steel fishtape. To each his own though.

Tim
IBEW 176

[Big4x4Rides]

A homeowner can pull their own permit and do their own work as long as they own the house. You have to be a licensed electrician if doing work on someone else's house.

I'd ask the local city for local code concerning depth of conduit and the size of wire. Better to know ahead of time before doing the work.

Be sure to photograph the trench where the conduit is buried. Use a tape measure or something else to show the depth of the trench. This will come in real handy if the conduit is already buried and the inspector want to see what you did.

What size is your home panel? Does your electrial meter base support another 200AMP panel or will you get another service dropped in?


it also has to be considered your homestead :)

[Pook]

While it may sound good in theory, I have found that "pull strings" cause more problems down the road. Nylon string as an uncanny ability to create a lot of friction inside PVC...(ex. you can cut PVC with nylon string for tight quarters)...especially when there are 90's close together (at a meter, panel). But, if one plans to pull some coaxial or telephone lines, nlyon string would likely suffice as a pull string.

Yet, when one needs to pull some heavy cable or wire, a steel fishtape, IMO, is by far, the best method to birth a line through RESIDENTIAL conduit.


I dunno what you guys have been doing but, I have done many of 1000's of foot runs (with pull boxes of course) with pull strings...never a problem, just realize that you really shouldn't be pulling that 2/0 in with a pull string. You use it to pull in the rope.

[James_Fendley]

A homeowner can pull their own permit and do their own work as long as they own the house. You have to be a licensed electrician if doing work on someone else's house.




In North Carolina I had to pass a test to wire my shop. It was a bitch, they said 90% of the people that take it fail.

James

[PAToyota]

PA is the same as TX - homeowner can do their own wiring on their own property.

[u2slow]

Better find out what your local ammendments & codes require, or will exempt you from. I found out recently homeowners can't pull a permit if they have a rental suite in their house. :rolleyes:

Up here you would need at least #3/0 copper or 250kcm for a 200A sub, can't undersize the neutral, but a ground rod in the detached building is not required :p
You can get larger radius 90* bends (like 2' radius). That helps a lot for pulling wire.

Direct burial cable is really the cheapest/easist way to go.

Consider what you want to do at the main service. You won't be able to tie a 200A cable into a 200A branch-circuit breaker in your 200A main panel. You can do it with disconnects and splitters, if you happen to set up for that already.

[Aces'n'8s]

I dunno what you guys have been doing but, I have done many of 1000's of foot runs (with pull boxes of course) with pull strings...never a problem, just realize that you really shouldn't be pulling that 2/0 in with a pull string. You use it to pull in the rope.

How many times have you setup a pullbox or winch on a RESIDENTIAL jobsite? My remarks were stated in the context of a residential jobsite...not commercial/industrial.

I never said I would pull 1000' fun with a fish tape. When I hear "pull string," I think of nylon string....not ROPE.

[D60]

Up here you would need at least #3/0 copper or 250kcm for a 200A sub, can't undersize the neutral, but a ground rod in the detached building is not required :p

We can undersize the neutral here. But on the ground rod that's not a big deal, $20 tops in materials and 20 minutes of your time. I just sharpen the rod on my bench grinder and drive it into the ground w a 4lb sledge. A bit of bare copper into the box and you're done.

Consider what you want to do at the main service. You won't be able to tie a 200A cable into a 200A branch-circuit breaker in your 200A main panel. You can do it with disconnects and splitters, if you happen to set up for that already.

This defintely seems to vary widely. Call your local inspector, they're there to help you. I came out of my electric company 200A breaker with 4/0 and then used the 3-way insulated Polaris connectors to split off, #2 to the house which was already there, and 1/0 to the new shop. I was gonna do a separate pedestal but the inspector actually reco'd the Polaris connectors. Since it was less work for me (altho probably equal in cost since the Polaris splices are $34 ea) I went that way.

[PAToyota]

I never said I would pull 1000' fun with a fish tape. When I hear "pull string," I think of nylon string....not ROPE.

Since he is looking to make future use of the conduit, it is easy to throw a pull strings in the conduit. A year from now, two years from now, whatever he uses the pull string to pull a rope through and then pull the cable with that. That is what I did in my situation. I put a couple conduits in for electric and for miscellaneous future use (telephone, cable, CAT, etc) - each with at least two pull strings. When I need to pull something through between the shop and the house I pull a heavier line through with one of the pull strings and go from there.

[The Joker]

I would not put in a string at this time leave them tall and cap them so no dirt water or rodents get in. When you get ready to put the wire in tie a sting to a plastic bag and suck it through the conduit with your shop vac. Then pull in a rope with the string and pull with that. Your run isn't that long the pull will not be very hard. At my dad we had to go over 200' with a couple bends we had to use the tractor bucket to pull the rope and wire. I would put in a couple 1" conduits for low voltage just in case you change things over the years. Conduit is cheap its best to get it in while you can. You could end up with phone, data, CATV, and security.

[Aces'n'8s]

Since he is looking to make future use of the conduit, it is easy to throw a pull strings in the conduit. A year from now, two years from now, whatever he uses the pull string to pull a rope through and then pull the cable with that. That is what I did in my situation. I put a couple conduits in for electric and for miscellaneous future use (telephone, cable, CAT, etc) - each with at least two pull strings. When I need to pull something through between the shop and the house I pull a heavier line through with one of the pull strings and go from there.

I completely understand the rationale concerning pull strings.

As for me, a residential pull of a short distance can just as easily be accomplished by snaking a fishtape through the conduit and pulling wire.

[The Joker]

I completely understand the rationale concerning pull strings.

As for me, a residential pull of a short distance can just as easily be accomplished by snaking a fishtape through the conduit and pulling wire.

But as a home owner he has not need of a fishtape. He can get a plastic bag and some string a hell of a lot cheaper. I agree if you are in the biz and have a fish tape then you are set.

[PAToyota]

For me, it was easier to put the pull strings in when I was assembling the conduit than tracking down a 200 plus foot fishtape somewhere... I've heard the shopvac and plastic bag trick. Again, not sure if that would work with over 200' of 3" conduit...

[CragRat]

For me, it was easier to put the pull strings in when I was assembling the conduit than tracking down a 200 plus foot fishtape somewhere... I've heard the shopvac and plastic bag trick. Again, not sure if that would work with over 200' of 3" conduit...

Shop-vac and a foam "mouse" (3" dia x 2" long) with string attached. :smokin:

[Gummi Bear]

It'd have to be a bad ass shop vac to pull a 3" mouse.:D

I like CO2 or Nitrogen and use that to blow a rat through. A badass air compressor will do a fine job as well. DO NOT use oxygen (I'm sure you know that) there was a nasty explosion here a few years back where a man was disfigured in the accident.

The plastic sack from Walmart is the best rat you can get. Pony up for some jet line to tie to the sack, and pull your rope in with the jet line.

Like suggested earlier, get the GRC elbows. Nothing sucks more than burning through an elbow during a pull. It will ruin your day, guaranteed. Been there, got the T-shirt and wore it out.

[Pook]

How many times have you setup a pullbox or winch on a RESIDENTIAL jobsite? My remarks were stated in the context of a residential jobsite...not commercial/industrial.

I never said I would pull 1000' fun with a fish tape. When I hear "pull string," I think of nylon string....not ROPE.


residential pull boxes...yes a few times...some people have long driveways and don't want overhead lines or poles impeding there view.

Normally the pull string is for small wires only, anything beyond a few #12 etc, I always pull a rope ing with the string.

I would rather have a pull sting than fish tape for long runs, tapes do have there place but are usually more of a pain to deal with and put away when your done with them especially on runs more than 50-75'.

[Pook]

We can undersize the neutral here. But on the ground rod that's not a big deal, $20 tops in materials and 20 minutes of your time. I just sharpen the rod on my bench grinder and drive it into the ground w a 4lb sledge. A bit of bare copper into the box and you're done.



This defintely seems to vary widely. Call your local inspector, they're there to help you. I came out of my electric company 200A breaker with 4/0 and then used the 3-way insulated Polaris connectors to split off, #2 to the house which was already there, and 1/0 to the new shop. I was gonna do a separate pedestal but the inspector actually reco'd the Polaris connectors. Since it was less work for me (altho probably equal in cost since the Polaris splices are $34 ea) I went that way.

You guys are lucky.

Around here the electric company only supplies a meter, so normally you have to work off the main panel and get limited by 60% of the rated amps or whatever is specified by the panel.

[D60]

Around here the electric company only supplies a meter, so normally you have to work off the main panel and get limited by 60% of the rated amps or whatever is specified by the panel.

I've actually got THREE structures with 100A service on a 200A meter. I specifically questioned the inspector on this and he told me no problem. One residence, one detached garage, and one shop, but all have 100A main breakers. It makes perfect sense because it's highly unlikely all three structures will ever exceed 200A draw; the garage might have a light on, or a garage door opener operating momentarily, and that's it. Worst case you trip one of the 100A breakers and figure out you need to do something differently regarding simultaneous power consumption.

[Pook]

makes sense to me, but my guess someone up here way back when screwed up something bad and a new rule was written.

I have to install a disconnect and splitter so I can get the full 200 amps in my new shop and to my house.

[LCOwner]

From experence add another 3/4" conduit in the trench for communications/cable tv. It's worth it.