I know that I am going to get a whole bunch of people telling to try searching on this one, but I have already read many of the posts about this same kind of question.
Basically, I am setting up a coil front end on my FJ40. I am at a decision point with the whole project. I have decided to sell the stock front axle and go with a waggoneer D44. I was just going to run two links that were mounted with two points on the axle and on the frame. Then run a panhard bar to control the lateral movement. But due to the fact that I have decided to run a waggy 44, I don't have enough room to weld up a mount for the panhard rod and coil bucket.
So, I have decided to build a Y bar(A frame) to control the lateral movement. Now I know that many will say that this won't be strong enough to control it and a four link would be much better. I agree, but do to the added cost of a four link and the lack of room that I have up by the engine compartment, I really can't.
So, my question is this, would it be okay to run a johnny joint as the third point of contact off the Y bar, or would a larger heim mounted horizontally be better. Or would something that I haven't even thought of, be better all together.
I realize that by running this type of setup, if I am not careful I will get terrible bump steer I also might have the problem of the steering motion just moving the body over instead of turning the tires. Any advice that you guys have would be really appreciated. Just looking for ideas, so I can get my rig back on the trails.

Some of you guys have to have some ideas. I am surprised I haven't even got a snide comment yet. :p

if you go to sierra rockcrawlers.com and look under their project vehicles you will find a setup I believe is similar to what you are describing, I seem to recall hearing somplace that it didn't work well but can't be sure.
if you do build this make sure to build it pretty hefty, there are going to be a lot of forces acting on that one bar.

good morning to you, mr. Ouibus.

i do not wish to sound offencive, but for some reason you sounded like you were reinventing the wheel.

do you mean to tell me that you NEVER saw such a setup of two radius arms and a triangle with a heim/johny joint?!

well, i can reasure you that this setup that you described, is not
uncommon and it works just fine.

i ought to know because i have this setup exactly in the Frog:) :)

indeed i used a custom johny joint - not a small wimpy one
but a beefy strong bastard :d:d

believe me, if it works well for the Frog with it's 2.5 Rockwells,
it will do just o.k. for you also.

here is a picture of this setup of the Frog's rear axle, when
it used to have a regular rear(before the rear steering).

i think this picture will give you a good idea about how
it should be done. let me know if you need anything else.

:beer: Barry:beer: http://www.thefrog.alloffroad.com/images/rear1.jpg

you need to control three things with a link setup:

lateral movement of the axle
fore and aft movement of the axle
and axle wrap

with the first setup you described (two links w/ a panhard) you address the first two, but not the axle wrap.

you need to figure something out that will fit in your space, plus control the three things listed above. what worked best for others may not for you.

the first setup you discribe sounds like the Rubicon Express long arm TJ suspension if I'm understanding you. You CAN run a setup like this, I don't see why a waggy axles would change anything, they run setups like this on stock TJ axles which are narrower then your waggy axle. If you can't figure out a way to get coil buckets and a couple mounting arms on a waggy axle maybe you shouldnt be building your own front suspension :rolleyes: no offense intended but it is simple, and yes I have spent time looking at one of these axles for a coil setup.

Just run a radius arm setup like you discribed with a trackbar and coil buckets, it will work just look at it again, you do realize you can weld to cast right?

Thanks for the input guys. Basically I was talking about setting up exactly what you have in your rig the frog. I wasn't trying to sound like I was reinventing the wheel. I was just asking if I could use a johnny joint or larger than usual heim and be okay. I realize that this has been built before and I have seen this setup in person, but only on the rear of vehicles. I have never seen it in the front end of a rig. I know that with a front axle, you have different forces and actions being applied to it. So that was why I was asking if it was okay to have it setup this way.
I guess to clarify some things, I will be running a narrow track waggy front 44. So the exposed tube that I will have to work with on the passenger side is like 2-3" long. That was why I was having problems trying to fit a coil bucket and a track bar mounting point that would be strong enough. I do realize that you can weld to cast, I was just going to try and avoid it if I could. If it comes down to it, then I will.
NE-RokToy, You were right in that I was looking to set up a radius arm design. But the track bar problem, was steering me to the 3 link, Y-bar design. I don't have the waggy axle so I can look at it, but I will find one and take some measurements. Thanks again for the input, and hopefully I can get something figured out. Thomas

Looking for some more input on this. Anybody else want to chime in?

without a track bar you will run into bad bumpsteer, unless you go to full hydraulic steering. This happens because the drag link travels in an arc as the suspension compresses, a track bar forces the axle to follow the same pattern as the drag link, and eliminates bump steer.

CrazyHorse,
What you say makes sense, and I have heard that before. Is there any way to build it so you don't have bumpsteer without a track bar. Or is it always going to be there? Do people with four links in the front use a track bar as well? I guess if people are four linking it, they are probably running full hydro as well.
Well, I guess I better find a way to build a track bar bracket into what I have, unless I want to go full hydro. Thanks for the comments guys. Thomas

I like to lay down naked in the grass and pee on myself!

Crazyhorse...true about the tracbar but you also get a form of bumpsteer with a tracbar Look at a stock TJ hit a pothole with the pass front tire and you will see... exadurate this on a lifted TJ

Orbidus...i dont understand your question how can you have room for a Y link in the front but not \/

Orbidus if you dont have room for coil buckets look at a ford aerostar rear setup (the coil buckets are part of the lower arms)

I am in the process of building my TJ with 4 links front and rear D60's i mocked up (on the Jeep) with a 4x4 as an axle and 1" conduit as control arms and nails as heims....I found there are all kinds of ways that you could make the 4 link work each with inherant flaws i finally found one that i think will work for me...

Originally posted by redruM
Crazyhorse...true about the tracbar but you also get a form of bumpsteer with a tracbar Look at a stock TJ hit a pothole with the pass front tire and you will see... exadurate this on a lifted TJ


bump steer with a track bar is a result of improper design, or compromises made in the design (usually the second one). I can pull the springs out of my bronco, and cycle my suspension to the limits of the shocks with no bumpsteer.

If there's any way to work it, try an get the raduis arm setup you first mentioned to work. Wrist one of the arms.

That's one bad-ass setup. There's something about using the entire axle as a sway bar, then unpinning it for mad flex when you get to the trail... which is just plain COOL.

If you want cheap, easy, flexible setup use the FORD radius arm setup on 70's broncos, f150's. Wrist the passenger arm and you are good to call. Instead of the waggy front, go to the yard and cut out the whole front section from a ford coil setup. You wont have to worry about joints, links, strength.

IMHO if you are going to all the trouble to fabricate a custom suspension why not try mocking it up full scale on your rig first. i started mocking mine up 2 weeks ago and found that a true triangulated fourlink with all control arms the same lenghts as my driveshafts flexes like no other (60 degrees left to right) and alwaws keeps the pinion pointed directly at the t-case (CV) (even when all links are dropped 90 degrees under the truck) (wheels touching) can you say 80 degree driveshaft :) Jessss 3 more weeks i will have sizes

now anybody got springs that have a ride height of 10" compress to 4" and stretch to 47" theoretically that is what i need im thinkin dual coilovers are in my future.

Thanks for all the input you guys.
redruM,
I was saying that I was having trouble fitting the coil bucket and a track bar mounting point that would be strong enough. Unless I was to weld to the cast center section, I was running short on room. I would have room for a Y bar setup since the third mounting point goes to the center of the axle. I won't have room for a four link becuase of the link hitting my oil pan and exhaust pipes. With the Y bar, I could build it so it could avoid these parts. I hope that makes sense. If you have ever seen Ants cruiser on SRC board, he ran into the same problem and ended up building a y-bar setup. He just didn't have room for a four link.
Inebriated, thanks for the input.
Dr. Evil, I will agree with you that having a wristed radius arm is a pretty sweet setup. It is relatively easy and functional.
clc900, I thought about doing this, but I really don't want to mess with the c-bushings. I already have some of the parts and have some ideas on how to make it better than the stock Ford setup.
Thanks again for the input and keep it coming. Thomas