An email I just got.....

[Brian Ellinger]

Yeah, yeah rules, and changes, and additions. Well sit back and read this. This is from a very interested individual. He reads on Pirate, and the current Ftoy rule book.

This is his unprevoked response as to why he "was getting somewhat discouraged with the Ftoy thing" His email is between the smilies.

:D
"I had a chance to go to dinner with the Rich's.

There simply needs to be more rules if this class is going to grow and to
clarify issues on builds, direction of teams etc and a strong sanctioning
body like W.E.Rock that enforces the rules.

It doesn't make sense to me to not have these rules especially when half
the Ftoys in Globe failed Tech. This is counter productive IMO to make the
standards the lowest of all the classes. Understand the "old skool, let's
keep it simple, rules suck" attitude but for guys like myself that are not
in the So-Cal loop its frustrating. How can I plan to drive many hours one
way for an event and they aren't sure when it's going to be held 60 days
out?

I know if I plan to attend one of Rich's events, it will be there when
planned as said with a expectation of what to expect at tech inspections
and course layout. Only problem is (if no Ftoys) they want to throw me in Pro-Mod and without the ability to do front digs, I can forget being competitive.

So, I'm at a crossroads depending on how the next season shapes up. I'll
build my truck Spec Ftoy till the end of 2007 and if the BOD doesn't get
these issues resolved, will make the changes to be competitive in
Pro-Modified.

IMO, the make up for the BOD should be

Big Rich
A Current Driver from the West or 2
Camo (clarify intentions of the class and refocus)

Vendors should not be allowed on the BOD in the same situation as gieger
and messer. I beleive vendors though should be apart of the BOD but not
as title sponsors.

Anyways, if something gets going in Colorado next year, I'll be there for
all the events. Traveling is a blessing for me and can do it easily."
:D

The only changes I made to the email were deleting parts that would possibly compromise his anonymousness.

This is the exact thing I have been talking about with needing some minor additions/changes to the rules. More clarifications in parts, and specifics where needed. He does touch on comps not changing dates, etc, and sometimes that does happen, even with the larger bodies, and some is unavoidable. I think the only change made this year was not by the Ftoy competitors or BOD, but by the host sanctioning body.

Im posting this up, as we (DA & FROR) obviously have a vested interest in the Ftoy class. I would like to see it grow, and get throught these "growing pains."

As I am not on the BOD I have no idea if anything has been discussed, determined, or where things are at. This may be a moot point.

[mobil1syn]

as an outsider i think its ridiculous that there are vendors on the BOD

[fatkid]

I kind of hope that the class rules don't turn into something out of a SCORE rule book...:(

[desertoy]

First off, thank's for your continued interest in this subject. This is something that will be delt with by the BOD at the conclusion of the 2006 season (so I have been told).

A couple of things that need to be addressed in the e-mail you posted.

1. ALL of the F-Toys passed Tech inspection at Globe. There was a question on weather we needed to have a teather fastened to the Master battery shut off switch. The F-Toy competitors were not properly informed about this detail (because we run a couple of different sanctioning bodies) and After personally talking to the Riches, They determined that it was not something that they would hold us to for that event.

2. When the Formula toy events were being considered, the Rich's had not committed to having an event in Cedar City but Pro Rock did. The thread last week where I was asking about this reveled that ProRock was committed but just didn't hae it on their website. Had the Rich's committed earlier we would be competing in their event.

Just to be clear, I am not on the BOD either, but I have asked all of these questions and these are the answers that I got.

There are not going to be any rule changes this season. Once the season is over, ALL of the rules will be looked at for clarity, and a plan going foreward to make it clear to potential builders will be put in place.

One last thing, why is this e-mail anonymous (sp?)? I think we encourage people to come on here and voice their opinion.

[a2b]

well if the anonymous (cant spell) guy is reading this:

he should know, tech inspection wasnt a problem. i dont know why you brought that up.

also, this has been a great year. sooo many people are building and competiting this year, it has really pushed the bar up and shown where the weaknesses are in the rules.

like john said, the rules will stay the same, and as folks request clarity in rules, they will be addressed.

if you have any specific questions about anything during your build. call me!

there is no need to be in a circle of friends in socal in order to build an ftoy:D

[kiwi_steve]

there is no need to be in a circle of friends in socal in order to build an ftoy:D

Well theres a relief... a friend and I were looking at building a couple here in New Zealand... :) Not sure we'd make ANY of the events over there... but I guess all big things start small...

So who's gonna come over and scrutineer the rigs when they're done?...

Steve

[Air Ride]

The people that want Formula toy rule changes are probable the same people that fought for warning labels on guns.

Everyone knows what the spirit of the class is and the rules are in that same spirit.

If it didn't come that way and the rules don't say you can change it then you had better ask before you do it. What is so hard about that?

[RedBullJeep]

If it didn't come that way and the rules don't say you can change it then you had better ask before you do it. What is so hard about that?
Mike, it's competition...people will build to what THEY believe is the skirting edge of the rules...that's why you have so much variety in your class which is a good thing, and a hassle to police at the same time.
Considering the level of the class, if they have to ask, then it is a grey area that is open to a different answer from each different person and varying simply because of the weather or their mood...that's the tough part.

My suggestion. If a question is asked by anyone and an answer is given, it should be noted in the class outline for future reference and equality across the board.

Keep it up with this blast of a class of competition!

[noahfecks]

Most of the guys on the BOD would probably be glad to step aside if anyone else was willing to step up to the plate. Lets not be to quick to judge the people who created this. The fact is vendors sit on the BOD because they are the only ones putting forward the effort. There are like 50 chassis in existance and like 30 that are even ready to compete (from what I can tell on PBB). The guys on the BOD have all been involved in most of the rigs out there and thats why they are on the BOD. If people are really that interested in whats going on get more involved. I was feeling a little like it was a so cal club and I have had a positive initial response about putting something together where I live. So get some friends together, build some rigs, and start something in your area.:D :beer: Mabey then some other people will be asked to sit on the BOD

[ACE-CAGE-#29]

First of all I was voted onto the BOD before I started Trail-Gear. It was also voted on by all BOD excluding Gieger and myself that Trail-Gear be the title sponsor.

As far as I know Trail-Gear was the only vendor willing to put some decent cash to help promote more owners to build F-toys. Let’s face it, being the title sponsor is not making me money. I am only doing this because I want the sport to grow and be a success. Even with the best marketing and advertising plan in place, each event cost Trail-Gear several thousand dollars in expenses. (it might be less expensive if I kept the vehicle upright) (please no comments from Fatkid) (“I am just going to play it safe”)(sorry….inside joke)

Back on subject….I do not see any advantages of being the title sponsor and on the BOD. I can stand down at anytime when ever someone else would like to fill my spot.

I support Air rides post. The F-toy class was meant to be enjoyable and feasible. If you are looking for serious competition, then build a super modified.

Matt

[fatkid]

I'm just gonna play it safe...:D

No for real...

[RE:Todd]

Brian, I wish "anonymous" would address his/her concerns with the BOD directly.

[MikeWazowski]

I'm farely new to rock crawling (compaired to some of you guy's) I have seen and helped build several rigs, some real cheap and some REALY expensive rigs, when it came time for me to build my own rig I chose a Formula Toy because I can't afford that $50 or $80,000 price tag.
I felt that the ftoy was for people serious about wheeling but on a limited budget. These ftoy guy's are there to have a good time not blow each others doors off with the biggest check book.
Its all about having a good time wheelin with freinds and Keeping It Simple.:)

[Air Ride]

I'm farely new to rock crawling (compaired to some of you guy's) I have seen and helped build several rigs, some real cheap and some REALY expensive rigs, when it came time for me to build my own rig I chose a Formula Toy because I can't afford that $50 or $80,000 price tag.
I felt that the ftoy was for people serious about wheeling but on a limited budget. These ftoy guy's are there to have a good time not blow each others doors off with the biggest check book.
Its all about having a good time wheelin with freinds and Keeping It Simple.:)
Exactly

[Beat95YJ]

First of all I was voted onto the BOD before I started Trail-Gear.


Yes and when Trial Gear was started you should have stepped down. If not then, then definately when Trail Gear became the title sponsor.

[desertoy]

Yes and when Trial Gear was started you should have stepped down. If not then, then definately when Trail Gear became the title sponsor.

That is easy to say, but who would have taken his place? Please understand that the F-toy forum didn't exist when this went down and there wasn't near as much interest in the class at that time. It was all they could do to get 5 guys interested to be on the BOD.
These are all growing pains. Everyones opinion and comments are welcome, but please look at the big picture.

The worst thing we could do is to start making big changes before the conclusion of this season.

I think that all of the current F-Toy owners should be thinking about who they would like to see on the BOD next year. But remember, if Camo wanted to be involved, he would.

[Beat95YJ]

I understand about growing pains and I think great strides are being made with F-toys. I personally don't care for a vendor, any vendor who is developing parts for their company deciding what equipment is permissible to use in competition. The competitors should make those choices, as it is a "friendly" class.

[desertoy]

I understand about growing pains and I think great strides are being made with F-toys. I personally don't care for a vendor, any vendor who is developing parts for their company deciding what equipment is permissible to use in competition. The competitors should make those choices, as it is a "friendly" class.

I agree with your opinion, understanding that it has not happened.

[ACE-CAGE-#29]

I understand about growing pains and I think great strides are being made with F-toys. I personally don't care for a vendor, any vendor who is developing parts for their company deciding what equipment is permissible to use in competition. The competitors should make those choices, as it is a "friendly" class.


What parts am I developing that are F-toy specific and or competition specific? I certainly don't know of any off-hand except for panels. How many F-toy chassis are in existence? Maybe 45 and I think that only about 20 are drivable and only 7 compete. Any parts that Trail-Gear would be promoting are only to benefit the builder and make it easier for them. There is no money to be made from selling F-toy parts.....that is a fact! I think that even air ride would back me here.

At this point Geiger and I have discussed the whole BOD issue and are willing to step down. I am asking the remaining BOD to vote (including you Sean) on whether Geiger and I (Messer) should be replaced as BOD members.

These issues will not effect Trail-Gear's involvement as the title sponsor. Trail-Gear will continue their full support for Formula Toyota.

Thanks,
Matt

[Beat95YJ]

Matt,

I am sorry if you took offense to my post. I don't know you personally and you could be the nicest guy in the world.

My concern is that if trail gear were to develop (totally random choice don't read anything into it) a rear driveshaft disconnect for a toy case that no one else had in production, I think it would be a conflict for you to vote on whether or not they should be permitted in competition.

If I upset you I owe you a :beer: I think you made the correct choice.

Frank

[Beat95YJ]

I agree with your opinion, understanding that it has not happened.


I agree it has not happened. I don't like the possibility in a class with growing pains.

[Mustard Dog]

Everyone knows what the spirit of the class is and the rules are in that same spirit.

If it didn't come that way and the rules don't say you can change it then you had better ask before you do it. What is so hard about that?

camo said he kept the rules 'vague' in order to spur creativity in the class, ride height and other things like that. I think if you're coming into this with the intent of using the rules to build the Tiny of the F-Toy class, then you just don't get what this class is about.

[Nissan Recovery Team]

Guys,

I want to sack up and let everyone know that was my email. It was never my intention to have a private email reposted on a public forum and did not know this was going to be the result.

These are my thoughts without malice and have no hard feelings towards Brian at all. Wish you would have asked though first:flipoff2:

I sent pms to dtoy and a2b shortly after it happened letting them know it was my email and wanted to wait till everyone had a chance to post their opinions before I posted this. My intentions were to share my comments and concerns at the end of the season when appropriate..they unintentionally got aired early.

Mark

[ACE-CAGE-#29]

Guys,

I want to sack up and let everyone know that was my email. It was never my intention to have a private email reposted on a public forum and did not know this was going to be the result.

These are my thoughts without malice and have no hard feelings towards Brian at all. Wish you would have asked though first:flipoff2:

I sent pms to dtoy and a2b shortly after it happened letting them know it was my email and wanted to wait till everyone had a chance to post their opinions before I posted this. My intentions were to share my comments and concerns at the end of the season when appropriate..they unintentionally got aired early.

Mark




VAN METER..........I KNEW IT!

No worries, thanks for stepping up. I will make sure your next TG order is delayed several days prior to shipping it:D

[Heywood]

Guys,

I want to sack up and let everyone know that was my email. It was never my intention to have a private email reposted on a public forum and did not know this was going to be the result.

These are my thoughts without malice and have no hard feelings towards Brian at all. Wish you would have asked though first:flipoff2:

I sent pms to dtoy and a2b shortly after it happened letting them know it was my email and wanted to wait till everyone had a chance to post their opinions before I posted this. My intentions were to share my comments and concerns at the end of the season when appropriate..they unintentionally got aired early.

Mark


No worries bro, that was a private email you sent, and shouldnt be used to promote someones agenda. Never the less, you brought up some valid concerns, alot of which have been brought up and addressed before, and will be continued to be looked at.

AND
I just got an email from a very concerend ftoy driver. It says:

"Quit worrying and get back to building"

I think we need to consider this emailers opinion in future disicions:flipoff2:

[Nissan Recovery Team]

No worries bro, that was a private email you sent, and shouldnt be used to promote someones agenda. Never the less, you brought up some valid concerns, alot of which have been brought up and addressed before, and will be continued to be looked at.

AND
I just got an email from a very concerend ftoy driver. It says:

"Quit worrying and get back to building"

I think we need to consider this emailers opinion in future disicions:flipoff2:

:smokin:

Matt, just ordered thru the web on Monday! LOL:D

[Brian Ellinger]

My intent to post this email was to get it out in the open. That is why it was kept anonymous. Yes I should have checked with Mark first. I took a gamble on that one. I felt that it should be brought up with decent time before the June comp. This was not an intent on getting things changed, just discussed. I personally get a lot of emails from folks that are not comfortable posting on Pirate. I did not know whether Mark was going to voice an opinion or not. However, it was well worded and echoed what other folks have emailed me about as well.

So I took a big chance getting this public, but I felt that the feeling of other folks, plus Mark, looking at these was worth the risk.


I also have not seen anyone wanting to build the "tiny of ftoy" I have gotten questions particularly frame related as to what the limits are. Why they are asking, doesnt matter. The fact that they are asking, does. Not everyone will ask.

[Nissan Recovery Team]

My intent to post this email was to get it out in the open. That is why it was kept anonymous. Yes I should have checked with Mark first. I took a gamble on that one. I felt that it should be brought up with decent time before the June comp. This was not an intent on getting things changed, just discussed. I personally get a lot of emails from folks that are not comfortable posting on Pirate. I did not know whether Mark was going to voice an opinion or not. However, it was well worded and echoed what other folks have emailed me about as well.

So I took a big chance getting this public, but I felt that the feeling of other folks, plus Mark, looking at these was worth the risk.


I also have not seen anyone wanting to build the "tiny of ftoy" I have gotten questions particularly frame related as to what the limits are. Why they are asking, doesnt matter. The fact that they are asking, does. Not everyone will ask.

Hind site being 20/20 it was a good call Brian.. :)

[Big Rich]

And as for the conversion with the Rich's:D

Our concern as with all vehicles competing at ANY events, are first and foremost SAFETY...

I think I have made our concerns fairly well known, but would be happy to help out with any attempt for rule clarification. Dustin and Brian are 2 guys that we bounce most of our questions off of when discussing or thinking about rules. They seem to have the though process down for trying to find the loopholes:evil:

Anyway, we are here for you guys, we love having you at our comp's. you are all more than welcome to run any events you want, either as an organised points event for your series or if some of you just want to come run. The field is always open:cool2:

Rich