So I'm kinda upset Klune dropped the suzuki setup for the moment.

I want about 200:1 crawl ratio. 6.1:1 don't cut it for me.

I've got a set of toy axles, so the rear will be centered diff. The axles also have 5.29 gears in them, so loosing the zuk high range underdrive isn't going to hurt much (esp. since this zuk isn't for daily driving anyway).

Putting the thinking cap on, crawling under the zuk, talking to the inch worm crawler dude, I've come up with the ideas:

1) You've got to cut the tunnel. Even for the klune, you cut it. So it's a cut and build a new tunnel time. Not a problem..

2) The klune replaces the shaft from the tranny to the xfer case. Why can't we do the same thing with a Toy crawler setup? It would be about the same length (we measured). You take the intermediate shaft, and cut 6" out of it. At most, the rear looses 3". BUT, we get centered drive train. So that makes up some of the angle problem.

3) Get the OTT Toy divorced adapter.

4) Look at the Bud Built skid plate - it may bolt right up (with mod's to the Zuk frame).

Am I in left field? Or does anyone see anything horribly wrong with it?

References URLS:

Ott divorced Case adapter (http://www.ottindustries.com/divorced_toyota_tcase.html)
Inchworm Crawler gears and Bud Built skid/tranny mount (http://www.inchwormgear.com)

IF you talked with Jim "Inchworm" and he thinks it can be done then give it a shoot, it sounds simple enough.

What about using OTTs Dana 300 to toyota t-case adapter then you could clock the t case and not have anything below the frame.

I think the setup would be too long with dual divorced toys unless you make that intermediate shaft reeeeallly short. Then, the problem becomes vibrations from that short shaft that is hard to balance. I wish someone would just do it, so we'd know for sure if it works on a swb sammi. Hint hint! :D

I emailed rick@OTT about it, but I think he's too busy to be of any help right now. I'm gettin' a Sumo. :D

I read in May 02 Jeep magazine that Terra is working on a very small 1.75:1 (4" long) 2 speed crawl box to go inbetween the tcase and the tranmission.

terra*diffs*tcase*1st gear:
1.75*5.1*6.1*3.65=199:1

Seems like this would be popular for Zuks. They were talking about it for Jeeps though.

Originally posted by Shrock
I read in May 02 Jeep magazine that Terra is working on a very small 1.75:1 (4" long) 2 speed crawl box to go inbetween the tcase and the tranmission.

terra*diffs*tcase*1st gear:
1.75*5.1*6.1*3.65=199:1

Seems like this would be popular for Zuks. They were talking about it for Jeeps though.

THat would be very very cool!!!!
Since Klune quite there, the only other option right now is for me to place a kick trannie and tcase in front of my zuk case...

3.65*1.8*6.1*5.38=215:1

Originally posted by dangerber
I think the setup would be too long with dual divorced toys unless you make that intermediate shaft reeeeallly short. Then, the problem becomes vibrations from that short shaft that is hard to balance. I wish someone would just do it, so we'd know for sure if it works on a swb sammi. Hint hint! :D

We would cut that shaft down about ~6.5 inches, leaving just enough to butt the u-joints together.

I'm leaning towards doing it - going to be tight though!

Originally posted by tdavis


We would cut that shaft down about ~6.5 inches, leaving just enough to butt the u-joints together.

I'm leaning towards doing it - going to be tight though!

An HP toy 3rd may help things out with the short rear driveline. But, that also means more $$. :eek:

Oh, the crawl ratio would be:

3.652*2.57*4.7*5.29 = 233.355:1

not bad for a slightly cheaper cost than a Klune!

You mean something like this:
http://rz-products.com/wayne/updates/suzvstoy.html

picture of my divroced Toyota sitting next to a stock Samurai t-case to give you all an idea of the size. I think this is a good way to do. You can pick up the Toy t-cases pretty cheap, and they take a lot of abuse.

I would not put a Dana 300 under a Zuk becuase of the weight.

Who knows how long Terra will take on that gear set up, and you are still running through the Samurai t-case.

For me it was a no brainer to drop in the Twin Toys as I was affraid to run 3 times the intended horse power through the stock t-case.

What the hell am I building? You got me, but I have pictures and text here:
http://rz-products.com/wayne/updates/updates.html

-Wayne

Cool!

Could you measure that ott adapter? I'd like to figure out how long it will all be.

Originally posted by tdavis
Cool!

Could you measure that ott adapter? I'd like to figure out how long it will all be.

I'll try to remember to measure it up for you tonight. been a little under the weather, so didn't make it into the garage last night.:crybaby: I'd guess it adds 4-5 inches to the Toyota length.

-Wayne

It looks like the Toy case has the front output clocked down a lot further than the Sami case. Have any idea how far the Toy case will hang below the frame?

OK.. measured it up last night. You are looking at just a hair under 4 inches added to the Toyota cases with the adapter. Not bad.

How low will the t-case hang below the frame? Well, on mine, none! It will be flush with the bottom of the frame, but keep in mind that my tranny tunnel is pretty much already gone as a result of fitting my 4 speed auto in there.

You have the adnatage of clocking the t-case to pick up some ground clearance compared to the guys that are not devorcing the t-case, but that only buys a little bit of clearance. You would have to play around and look at the space on a stock setup. I'm more then happy to make any measurements you need, but don't have a stocker around any more. If I get the chance, I'll play around fitting mine into a stocker, but don't think that will happen any time soon.

I think this is a worth while swap, but it will require a fair amount of work to pull off. But then again, what options do you have?

-Wayne

So, I'm getting ready to start work on the zuk.

I'm seriously considering doing this - the rear drive shaft will be short!

The numbers I've got, is 24 (18+6) inches for the toy double case, plus another 4 inches for the divorce adapter. You do the intermediate shaft like Klune does it, build a cross member that attaches the tranny to the case, and pop it in.

This will trim about 2-3 inches off the rear drive shaft, making it really short. So, I'm thinking point the rear axle at the diff, and use a double-cardan drive shaft.

Before I call up inchworm, and order the cases/gears/adapters, anyone think this is terribly wrong?

Go for it man, if anything just kick your rear axle back a couple inches to help that rear drive-shaft out. Put some YJ leafs back ther ewhile you're at it, it's easy enough to do.

Originally posted by tdavis
I've got a set of toy axles, so the rear will be centered diff. The axles also have 5.29 gears in them, so loosing the zuk high range underdrive isn't going to hurt much (esp. since this zuk isn't for daily driving anyway).





What engine are you running?

What tires?

Cool Hippo!

If everybody is going to start hacking there tunnels, as I have offered before, I am willing to find out how much it would cost to get a mold made off of the infamous stealth tunnel:vader2: . It should be big enough for anyone doing a kick tranny or a toy tranny and multiple tcs.

Now that all of the hard work is over I dont regret using the toy tranny and tcs. If 110:1 doesnt feel low enough, its an easy upgrade to 200+:1 with either 4:1 or 4.7:1 gears. Everything is tucked above the framerails...oh yeah.

Originally posted by 0ILBURNER

What engine are you running?

What tires?

35" MTR, 1.3 Suzuki stock engine.

And, yes, it's getting YJ leafs front and rear, with a SR kit (the only one on the market)

Originally posted by tdavis
So, I'm getting ready to start work on the zuk.

I'm seriously considering doing this - the rear drive shaft will be short!

The numbers I've got, is 24 (18+6) inches for the toy double case, plus another 4 inches for the divorce adapter. You do the intermediate shaft like Klune does it, build a cross member that attaches the tranny to the case, and pop it in.

This will trim about 2-3 inches off the rear drive shaft, making it really short. So, I'm thinking point the rear axle at the diff, and use a double-cardan drive shaft.

Before I call up inchworm, and order the cases/gears/adapters, anyone think this is terribly wrong?

I have been doing some research for my next project (might as well let the cat out of the bag). From what I understand the Toy case was 12.5" long (input to rear output), a Marlin Crawler adapter would add another 6.5". Where did you get 18" for a toy case? Is that front output to rear output? Anyway my plan is a 1.6 mated to a TH-180 auto Tranny, short driveshaft to a divorce mount Marlin Crawler case, stock in front and 4.7 in the back. Already had a CV shaft, my output is now centered, life is good :) Now I just have to find another Zuk tub, tube it, stretch the WB to 95-98", throw a S/R up front, coils in back, add some 37's and swap my toy axles over. Plan to be done by next years Farmington/Colorado road trip.

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler

From what I understand the Toy case was 12.5" long (input to rear output), a Marlin Crawler adapter would add another 6.5". Where did you get 18" for a toy case? Is that front output to rear output?

Got that number from Jim@Inchworm.. Total length, about 24 inches he said. That's two cases stacked, not including the divorce adapter. I have not been able to find any dimensions of the toy case - from input to output. So, I've been looking, measuring, scratching, thinking, measuring, more head scratching..

Jim@Inchworm also offered to make up the divorce adapter, since OTT is down for the machine shop rebuild.. (they aren't taking any orders till about middle may, and then no delivery till middle of june)

If I do this, it will be stock gear in the front case, 21 spline, and 4.7 rear case, 21 spline. (maybe 23 spline in the rear, but that's getting costly.. :D )

Oh, and it goes:

1) short drive shaft (pull center sections, one u-joint)
2) divorce adapter
3) toy gear reduction (stock gear, 21 spline)
4) adapter
5) toy tcase
6) very, very short double cardan driveshaft to toy rear axle.

and the crawl ratios will be:


hi-hi lo-hi hi-lo lo-lo
1st 19.3 44.0 90.7 207.0
2nd 10.2 23.4 48.4 110.3
3rd 7.5 17.1 35.3 80.6
4th 5.29 12.0 24.8 56.6
5th 4.2 9.5 19.7 45

I would not run a single u-joint! I don't care what you do, that thing will haunt you down the line. Everything I have seen on the net where people used this method ending up killing the whole project, or making room for a second u-joint. I'd just plan on the extra joint now.

Before you start dropping some coin on parts, keep in mind that you will have a 1:1 high range. This will require you to run R&P gears to correct for the tire size. But if it is just a trail rig, I'd probably try out the stock toyota 4.11 gears and see how it goes. Really only hurts you in high range 1st gear.

Anyhow, not a cheap build up when you really start to add up all of the numbers as the t-case tends to be just one part of the puzzle of items you will be investing in.

-Wayne

Originally posted by rotozuk
before you start dropping some coin on parts, keep in mind that you will have a 1:1 high range. This will require you to run R&P gears to correct for the tire size. But if it is just a trail rig, I'd probably try out the stock toyota 4.11 gears and see how it goes. Really only hurts you in high range 1st gear.


got 5.29 gears in the toy axles.. so I don't think the 1:1 will hurt any.

ok whats the big deal with cutting off the slip spline yoke part on the intermediate drive shaft where the 1st u-joint yoke is and then welding it directly to a flange? This would be boarderline doable for most to get it dead on straight but prolly a quick job for a machine shop?

Then you'd had your alignment of the t-case(s) all taken care of off the transmision centerline. No need to have shaft easily remoavable as it wouldn't need to be serviced at all...

I know you can only pull it in so far with the trans output but it would at least take care of vibes issue... Just an idea....

-yag

and, as I forgot to say..

I need every single inch I can squeeze out.

Otherwise, I have to move the rear axle back, and if I'm going to do that, the whole rear tub is coming off, and it's getting tubed and stretched.

Originally posted by tdavis
and, as I forgot to say..

I need every single inch I can squeeze out.

Otherwise, I have to move the rear axle back, and if I'm going to do that, the whole rear tub is coming off, and it's getting tubed and stretched.

Might not be a bad thing. More or less, that is what I'm doing. The way I see it, with the low gears, I'm going to be climbing the walls a lot more, so a little more wheel base will be nice to have.

-Wayne

Originally posted by tdavis


got 5.29 gears in the toy axles.. so I don't think the 1:1 will hurt any.

Let me put it this way:

I am running the VW diesel engine and a stock Samurai t-case + Klune in 1:1 and 5.29's in the axles. I have 36" SX's and am pretty comfortable on the street. It will be interesting to see how you guy's gearing works out with only 1:1 high range.:)

This is a go; just got off the phone, setting it all up.

I'll be using an OTT divorce adapter, which will take some time to get (4-6 weeks, from the sounds of it), 21 spline cases, stock front, 4.7 rear, inchworm adapter.

Got enough to do between now and then to keep me busy. :)

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler


I have been doing some research for my next project (might as well let the cat out of the bag). From what I understand the Toy case was 12.5" long (input to rear output), a Marlin Crawler adapter would add another 6.5". Where did you get 18" for a toy case? Is that front output to rear output? Anyway my plan is a 1.6 mated to a TH-180 auto Tranny, short driveshaft to a divorce mount Marlin Crawler case, stock in front and 4.7 in the back. Already had a CV shaft, my output is now centered, life is good :) Now I just have to find another Zuk tub, tube it, stretch the WB to 95-98", throw a S/R up front, coils in back, add some 37's and swap my toy axles over. Plan to be done by next years Farmington/Colorado road trip.

so do you want 6.1's or not? you lost me....but I am lost most of the time anyway...lol

Originally posted by Arizona Zuk


so do you want 6.1's or not? you lost me....but I am lost most of the time anyway...lol

Well, I have been doing research (the search on this BB does work good). I am set on the auto tranny, especially after driving Rick's. I was considering the 6:1's But I am not sure if they would be low enough for me, especially when you consider my 1st gear is only 2.6:1. With a 6:1 + 5.29's I'd only be at 84:1, will a 1.6 make up for that? Who knows? Do I want to find out at the end of the project that my gearing isn't low enough and I'll have to re-do the t-case mounting scheme? All factors in deciding to go the dual toy case route. The benefits are extra strength, lower gearing (with the option to go mind blowing low if needed) and it does center my rear output which will make getting my 4 bar link in there a little easier. Yea, it costs a little more but it's more of an open ended solution, not to mention after I get rid of the rest of my parts car the difference in the costs are paid for :D

Now my research:

I'll be posting some the cost of my project on my webpage as it advances. Here's what I found to compare the t-case solutions, dual toy vs 6:1.

Toy transfer cases (2) needed + Dual case adapter + divorce t-case adapter = 4.7 gearset = 175 + 650 + 325 + 585 = 1735 for a 10.7:1 reduction which is about $162 per reduction over 1:1. You can get cheaper prices and easily knock off over $300 of the above price but I was quoted a complete assembled unit (do it yourself would be about $134 per reduction unit). Add a 4:1 to the front and another $500 to the cost and see the price per redution unit drop to around $50 :eek:

6:1 complete shipped to my door, we'll ignore the core charge. = 1190 which is $195 per reduction over 1:1. If you're mechanically inclined you can just buy the 6:1 gearset and install it yourself and the price does look better at $890 (ignoring the $200 core) for a price per reduction unit of $147.

The 6:1 is bolt in, a nice benefit and will save you some money as well. More food for thought.

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler


Well, I have been doing research (the search on this BB does work good). I am set on the auto tranny, especially after driving Rick's. I was considering the 6:1's But I am not sure if they would be low enough for me, especially when you consider my 1st gear is only 2.6:1. With a 6:1 + 5.29's I'd only be at 84:1, will a 1.6 make up for that? Who knows? Do I want to find out at the end of the project that my gearing isn't low enough and I'll have to re-do the t-case mounting scheme? All factors in deciding to go the dual toy case route. The benefits are extra strength, lower gearing (with the option to go mind blowing low if needed) and it does center my rear output which will make getting my 4 bar link in there a little easier. Yea, it costs a little more but it's more of an open ended solution, not to mention after I get rid of the rest of my parts car the difference in the costs are paid for :D

Now my research:

I'll be posting some the cost of my project on my webpage as it advances. Here's what I found to compare the t-case solutions, dual toy vs 6:1.

Toy transfer cases (2) needed + Dual case adapter + divorce t-case adapter = 4.7 gearset = 175 + 650 + 325 + 585 = 1735 for a 10.7:1 reduction which is about $162 per reduction over 1:1. You can get cheaper prices and easily knock off over $300 of the above price but I was quoted a complete assembled unit (do it yourself would be about $134 per reduction unit). Add a 4:1 to the front and another $500 to the cost and see the price per redution unit drop to around $50 :eek:

6:1 complete shipped to my door, we'll ignore the core charge. = 1190 which is $195 per reduction over 1:1. If you're mechanically inclined you can just buy the 6:1 gearset and install it yourself and the price does look better at $890 (ignoring the $200 core) for a price per reduction unit of $147.

The 6:1 is bolt in, a nice benefit and will save you some money as well. More food for thought.

it looks to me ....you might as well be going with a straight axle Toyota, add a dual t-case, then bob the bed...would be even a better way to go?

LOL

I went through the same quandry, Chris, and decided to go with the Sumo's for a number of reasons: Ease of installation(no tranny tunnel butchering, custom crossmembers), Retaining lighter weight(sure, the toys may not add alot, but it is more weight), and it is more cost effective(and I can actually wheel my zuk this summer!). I figure if I decide to go toys in the future, I can always sell the Sumo's, or keep them for that second(wife's) trail rig...

It is a tough decision though! :D

Now, Dave, give me the Sumo's that you are holding for Chris, so I can go wheeling!! Lol! :D

Originally posted by Arizona Zuk


it looks to me ....you might as well be going with a straight axle Toyota, add a dual t-case, then bob the bed...would be even a better way to go?

LOL

Toy's are still wider and heavier. Light weight is where it's at.

Originally posted by dangerber
I went through the same quandry, Chris, and decided to go with the Sumo's for a number of reasons: Ease of installation(no tranny tunnel butchering, custom crossmembers), Retaining lighter weight(sure, the toys may not add alot, but it is more weight), and it is more cost effective(and I can actually wheel my zuk this summer!). I figure if I decide to go toys in the future, I can always sell the Sumo's, or keep them for that second(wife's) trail rig...

It is a tough decision though! :D

Now, Dave, give me the Sumo's that you are holding for Chris, so I can go wheeling!! Lol! :D

I forgot to say this is for a dedicated rockcrawler, has to be light, small yet still stay street legal. Target tires are 37's, 1.6l powerplant, toy axles, mostly tub body, etc, etc. I borrowed a set of 6:1's from a friend, ran moab, some of the ARCA lines on Lower Woodpecker and a nasty trail called Overdose. I think I have a good feel for what the 6:1's can do. They feel pretty good on the milder stuff, but when I get to crawling notches or vertical obstacles they just don't feel low enough.

Not sure how these are more cost effective? Maybe us Zuk guys are used to paying $1200 for a 4.89 t-case back a couple months ago. As I have shown above the bang for buck is better with the dual cases IF you need that kind of gearing. Not everyone does. Another good reason to go dual case is you are not at a dead end if you find out you need to go lower at a later date.

I was looking at cost effectiveness in my case, the 6:1s will not require a R&P change in the axles...

And...for the stuff I normally wheel around here, I have a feeling I'll be crawling in 2nd gear a lot! I think the SUmo's will be low enough, maybe too low! For me at least, but then, I don't live in AZ. :D

Originally posted by dangerber
I was looking at cost effectiveness in my case, the 6:1s will not require a R&P change in the axles...

And...for the stuff I normally wheel around here, I have a feeling I'll be crawling in 2nd gear a lot! I think the SUmo's will be low enough, maybe too low! For me at least, but then, I don't live in AZ. :D

You'll love them.

Originally posted by dangerber
I went through the same quandry, Chris, and decided to go with the Sumo's for a number of reasons: Ease of installation(no tranny tunnel butchering, custom crossmembers), Retaining lighter weight(sure, the toys may not add alot, but it is more weight), and it is more cost effective(and I can actually wheel my zuk this summer!). I figure if I decide to go toys in the future, I can always sell the Sumo's, or keep them for that second(wife's) trail rig...

It is a tough decision though! :D

Now, Dave, give me the Sumo's that you are holding for Chris, so I can go wheeling!! Lol! :D

I agree......ok, they are your's

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler


I forgot to say this is for a dedicated rockcrawler, has to be light, small yet still stay street legal. Target tires are 37's, 1.6l powerplant, toy axles, mostly tub body, etc, etc. I borrowed a set of 6:1's from a friend, ran moab, some of the ARCA lines on Lower Woodpecker and a nasty trail called Overdose. I think I have a good feel for what the 6:1's can do. They feel pretty good on the milder stuff, but when I get to crawling notches or vertical obstacles they just don't feel low enough.

Not sure how these are more cost effective? Maybe us Zuk guys are used to paying $1200 for a 4.89 t-case back a couple months ago. As I have shown above the bang for buck is better with the dual cases IF you need that kind of gearing. Not everyone does. Another good reason to go dual case is you are not at a dead end if you find out you need to go lower at a later date.

I miss the point....

if we have a 1.3....we have to swap up to a 1.6...good or bad...it 's still a factor that cost more...then get all those adaptors....
then cut all the body off to make it lite....

I still say, if you going to all the trouble....why not just get a Toyota Truck, tube it out...to keep it lite.....the wheelbase is where you need it if you bob the bed or what ever.....plus the Toy motor has way more Power....they are a fully capable rig off-road....right?

are we at a deadend with 6.1's and either a dual t-case (Zuk) or dual stock, dual stock/4.1, dual stock/4.89, dual 4.1, dual 4.89, dual 6.1's...I left out some....didn't I? Oh, you don't think they'll hold up.....I bet they will, if they are mounted correct. The end result is even lower gearing for the buck than your Toys....LOL

Chris, have you crunched the numbers to see how streetable dual Toy cases would be in your rig? I am wondering if anyone has studied this side of the equasion.

With a 5 speed, I calculate at Least 5,000 rpm in 5th gear @ 60mph. (That is running one case in low-range) Going back to 4.10's would net a more liveable 4,100 rpm. Seems this would be critical especially for you since you drive your rig on the street a lot. Plus, that 5.29-to-4.10 would incur added costs, and impact crawl ratio.

I can't see any other combination that would function.

Not sure how to calculate for an auto tranny, either.

Seems like you would run into similar issues with dual sammi cases since you would have two reductions in high gear.

With my 5.29's I'd be turning 4800 RPM at 50MPH on a GRS1+Stock setup. 180:1 crawl.

It looks much better with stock 3.7 R&P (4300RPM at 65 MPH) but the dual Sammi case setup may require many to re-gear axles...$$$$.

Neat tool for these calcs:

http://www.off-road.com/suzuki/tech/files/rpmtable2K.xls

Jim

Originally posted by Arizona Zuk


I agree......ok, they are your's

Sweet! :D

Originally posted by 0ILBURNER
Chris, have you crunched the numbers to see how streetable dual Toy cases would be in your rig? I am wondering if anyone has studied this side of the equasion.

With a 5 speed, I calculate at Least 5,000 rpm in 5th gear @ 60mph. (That is running one case in low-range) Going back to 4.10's would net a more liveable 4,100 rpm. Seems this would be critical especially for you since you drive your rig on the street a lot. Plus, that 5.29-to-4.10 would incur added costs, and impact crawl ratio.

I can't see any other combination that would function.

Not sure how to calculate for an auto tranny, either.

If Chris is still planing on using the TH180 then the 3rd gear ratio would be 1:1 and this is what he uses for his calcs - also, the TC would be locked so also 1:1.

It's hard to get both crazy crawl and good highway RPMs. I do think that the dual case method is the way to go though. Calculate everything as if the cases were 1:1 (high) and make the engine turn the RPMs you want. Then engage as many boxes as required for the gearing needed.

I really like that Toy and TracKick boxes are 1:1 in high. If he changed out the 5.29 for 4.10, then adding a 4:1 in one of the t-cases might more than compensate for his axle gearing change. Or add another t-case. Which ever is more cost effective and
technically doable.

Chris, you might want to think about making the tranny pan a little deeper to get more capacity - in an attempt to offset fluid starvation when driving at funny angles. JAT (just a thought)

r@m

For me, I don't care about highway RPM's, because quite simply, I'll be trailering it.

And I believe Chris also has a trailer, so I'd lay odds he doesn't really care either..

For short runs on the highway, hey, just slow down some!

Originally posted by Root Moose
It's hard to get both crazy crawl and good highway RPMs.Not if you've got a Toyota, or Toy drivetrain. :flipoff2:

Simple recipe: 35-36" tires, Dual cases, and 5.29 gears in the axles. Done.

Originally posted by Arizona Zuk


I miss the point....

if we have a 1.3....we have to swap up to a 1.6...good or bad...it 's still a factor that cost more...then get all those adaptors....
then cut all the body off to make it lite....



Ok, one more time. I am starting from the ground up and want to create what I currently feel would be an incredibly capable vehicle. I am giving myself just under a year. I do have a budget and am looking for the best way to spend the money with future expandibility in mind. I am not saying "this is the best way to build a Zuk". Use the mentality of starting with a totally clean slate, what would you do if you could go back to square one? .

The engine. The plan is to find a wrecked donor rig, use the motor, wiring harness, brain, EFI, possibly the tranny and t-case. The 1.6 was chosen for the torque, small size and for the tranny/tcase options available. EFI is a bonus. There just aren't any options for the 1.3 once you get to the point where you want dual cases. No more Klune, the only comercially available option that I knew of. Why put another 1.3 into my dream rig if I know right off the bat the tires will be bigger than my current ones which already strain the gearing/powerplant? I really don't want to debate if deep gearing is needed. Since most of you don't wheel with me, how do you know? Crawl a mile in my Zuk and then tell me the gearing is more than enough.

Dave, on the gearing. You honestly believe a 6:1's will work good with 37's? How do you know?

This project has to be based on stuff available now in order to be done by next year since nearly everything is based off of the drivetrain length. I researched dual zuk cases and a lot of people have done them, no one says anything about them, well, other than they leak oil out on off camber stuff. Another issue might be length, two t-cases and two intermediate shafts means length. Short, no u-joint shafts will have to be dead nuts on. Wonder why the klune mounting kit is $800? Too much variation in the Zuks, there are slots and shims everywhere to get everything lined up perfectly (and it still doesn't work 100% of the time so tehy pulled it off the market).

On t-case strength issues, Marlin doesn't reccomend putting a 4:1 in front of another 21 spline t-case and they have something like 2000 in the field. That's enough convincing for me to look for a beefier option. I really think your underestimating the forces involved with stacking cases. The other thing I looked into is the massive hit your going to take in highway speed since the Zuk case isn't 1:1. Yeah I trailer, but I did drove this thing 180+ miles in Moab, woulda sucked if my top end was 50mph (actually with all the wind I was lucky to see 50, it did suck).

I still say, if you going to all the trouble....why not just get a Toyota Truck, tube it out...to keep it lite.....the wheelbase is where you need it if you bob the bed or what ever.....plus the Toy motor has way more Power....they are a fully capable rig off-road....right?


Why not build a toy? It's not as light (didn't I say that earlier :confused: ). From what I have seen they don't flex like a Zuk can, they are wide, I can't see over the hood, it wouldn't fit on my trailer, it's longer than I want to be, I like the way Zuks look...... The only reason to build a toy is if I needed more room.

are we at a deadend with 6.1's and either a dual t-case (Zuk) or dual stock, dual stock/4.1, dual stock/4.89, dual 4.1, dual 4.89, dual 6.1's...I left out some....didn't I? Oh, you don't think they'll hold up.....I bet they will, if they are mounted correct. The end result is even lower gearing for the buck than your Toys....LOL [/B]

If it truly costs less please post the numbers. From what I can see you can't buy the parts needed to do dual zuk cases yet so I didn't look at that option. The reason why I posted was to get feedback before I spent a lot of money. I presented what I found and it looks like if you need to go deep, it's cheaper to move away from the Zuk stuff. If I am wrong, give me the numbers. I want to spend as little as possible to reach my goals.

Project update: Based on my postings on various lists I already have decided against going for super deep gearing with an automatic tranny. Seems they will creep forward, possibly overpowering your brakes when in double low. There's a good thread about it in general 4x4. Some guys don't feel it's a problem, some do. So I am evaluating using a sidekick case combined witha toy case behind that. The kick low gear is pretty high at 1.82:1, combined with the auto and 4.7 in the toy case gives approx. 108:1 double low and some other interesting combinations. Best part is it's cheaper, easier to mount and eliminates the intermediate driveshaft. I am going to look into this some more.

22RE w/ Toy 5 speed & dual cases, one with lower gears.
Put that in yer buggy & wheel. With the light weight body your 5.29's will probably be fine even with 37's. :grinpimp:






This is also the most cost effective solution, I beleive.



Okay, you want an automatic, I believe Marlin can cover that one, too - cost ya more, tho.

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler


I really don't want to debate if deep gearing is needed. Since most of you don't wheel with me, how do you know? Crawl a mile in my Zuk and then tell me the gearing is more than enough.

Dave, on the gearing. You honestly believe a 6:1's will work good with 37's? How do you know?

[/B]


I saw the look on your face more than once in Moab - you needed lower gears. Going to larger tires would only make matters worse.

Face it, Chris - you are a 200:1 kinda guy.




EMBRACE IT :grinpimp:

Originally posted by 0ILBURNER
22RE w/ Toy 5 speed & dual cases, one with lower gears.
Put that in yer buggy & wheel. With the light weight body your 5.29's will probably be fine even with 37's. :grinpimp:

This is also the most cost effective solution, I beleive.



Okay, you want an automatic, I believe Marlin can cover that one, too - cost ya more, tho.



The hard part would be finding a 22RE with under 300k on the clock :) The only advantage is more power right? Going this route i still have to spring for the dual adapter, the 1.6 route same deal, need one adapter.

Originally posted by 0ILBURNER



I saw the look on your face more than once in Moab - you needed lower gears. Going to larger tires would only make matters worse.

Face it, Chris - you are a 200:1 kinda guy.

EMBRACE IT :grinpimp:

You know, If i found a screaming deal on a 1.6 w/ 5 speed tommorow, I would probably do it. 3.6 x 1.82 x 4.7 x 5.29 = 162:1, add a 4:1 to the kick case later if needed..... I'd like the auto mainly because I know I will only get lazier in my old age, one less pedal to work the better :D

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler


The hard part would be finding a 22RE with under 300k on the clock :) The only advantage is more power right? Going this route i still have to spring for the dual adapter, the 1.6 route same deal, need one adapter.

I think it is safe to say that there are more Toyota's running around than Suzuki's, ergo better availability = lower cost for more power - power you need for streetability w/ 1:1 hi-range.
Ask Erik if he likes the extra weight on the front of his rig, also.

To use a Sidekick tranny w/ tcase to Toy t-case, you have to send them your t-case to modify it - basically lop off the front output section and add the dual case adapter. The end result would be neat if you have a woodie to run a Suzuki engine, but I think the standard Toyota dual adapter route would be cheaper overall. The Only advantage I can see to running a 1.6 vs. the Toyota engine is that the damned motor mounts are bolt in. That alone is not enough to stay Suzuki. You must ask yourself what the Best Solution is.

If I were to start over, I would avoid divorced cases if at all possible - it just creates more room for error.
And for God's sake go fuel injection.



I neglected to mention the 3.9:1 first gear in the Toy 5 speed...:)

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler


You know, If i found a screaming deal on a 1.6 w/ 5 speed tommorow, I would probably do it. 3.6 x 1.82 x 4.7 x 5.29 = 162:1, add a 4:1 to the kick case later if needed.....


A 1.6L 5-speed Samurai with 5.29 gears wouldn't get out of it's own way on the street with 35's. You'd have to run it w/ the 'Kick t-case in low.

I keep expecting to hear from Scwafish, but I guess he's busy moving:rolleyes:

Chris, if you think you can hang with the 5spd, talk to Poppy and get some Ringers built. Just what you wanted, another opinion from left field, thats a BBS for ya:D

Originally posted by 0ILBURNER
A 1.6L 5-speed Samurai with 5.29 gears wouldn't get out of it's own way on the street with 35's. You'd have to run it w/ the 'Kick t-case in low.

Yes. Chris, as a frame of reference: stock 5 speed TracKicks have 5.125:1 axle gearing and 205s.

Another modified frame of reference, Mudkick is running 33s and 5.89 D44s. He finds it lacking but doable on road. That is a stock 8V though; cam, header, raised fuel pressure etc. would probably wake it up some. He finds it fine off-road but isn't a rock crawler so ymmv.

Remember what i was saying about the high range reduction being a displacement normalizer....?

If you went 2.0 or diesel you'd probably have no issues. That is speculation on my part.

r@m

Originally posted by 0ILBURNER


I think it is safe to say that there are more Toyota's running around than Suzuki's, ergo better availability = lower cost for more power - power you need for streetability w/ 1:1 hi-range.
Ask Erik if he likes the extra weight on the front of his rig, also.

To use a Sidekick tranny w/ tcase to Toy t-case, you have to send them your t-case to modify it - basically lop off the front output section and add the dual case adapter. The end result would be neat if you have a woodie to run a Suzuki engine, but I think the standard Toyota dual adapter route would be cheaper overall. The Only advantage I can see to running a 1.6 vs. the Toyota engine is that the damned motor mounts are bolt in. That alone is not enough to stay Suzuki. You must ask yourself what the Best Solution is.

If I were to start over, I would avoid divorced cases if at all possible - it just creates more room for error.
And for God's sake go fuel injection.



I neglected to mention the 3.9:1 first gear in the Toy 5 speed...:)

Thanks for throwing the fuel on the fire. I'll have to go run some numbers :D Streetabilty isn't a concern, it just has to pass smog. Not sure about where you live but down here where nothing rusts the Toys have tons of miles on them, I think Jack had almost 300k on his last motor before swapping :eek: I'll do some looking the weekend and see what I can find. The Kick stuff isn't popular like the Toy stuff so it is easier to find here. If I wanted it today I could get any one of (6) 1.6's with various trannies, been looking since December for another front Toy axle, the Toy guys down here are vultures :D

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler


Streetabilty isn't a concern, it just has to pass smog


Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. ;)



You want ideal for you?
Toyota injected 4-popper w/ automatic and dual cases.
It's fits all the parameters you've laid out.

Originally posted by 0ILBURNER



Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. ;)



You want ideal for you?
Toyota injected 4-popper w/ automatic and dual cases.
It's fits all the parameters you've laid out.


I know its gonna be a buggy, but how much trouble do you think it will be to fit a 22RE in the Samurai engine bay? Is a rear mounted radiator cool with you? Otherwise??

Starting to drift OT a bit, but oh well.:D

Chris V. has toob front-end :D

(That was a critical factor for my recommendation)



I wonder if a Toy V-6 is shorter than the 4-cylinder?.......:grinpimp:

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler


what would you do if you could go back to square one? . [/B]

IMO if I was to go back to square one....I would use an efi 1.3 (no adaptors needed, plenty of Power for a trailer queen stricktly off-road Zuk) then use SUMO 6.1 with front and rear ARB's, 5.29 gears in Toy axles, 35" MTR's or 35" SSR's/SX's Toyota Power Steering (Like Mr. Sumo's) that gearing would be lower than what I have now, plus stronger axles......judging how I did against the Toyotas on Upper FireBird....it should do fine for Asylum with a bigger winch than what I have now....add in an all tube body like a Mini Shannon Campbell rig....

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler



I really don't want to debate if deep gearing is needed. Since most of you don't wheel with me, how do you know? Crawl a mile in my Zuk and then tell me the gearing is more than enough.

Dave, on the gearing. You honestly believe a 6:1's will work good with 37's? How do you know?
[/B]


I have wheeled with you when you wanted to turn back.....it was your first time through Upper FB....LOL

37's may be too tall, and with Yota axles, may not be needed, but they aren't that much taller than 35's and they work great with our gearing......

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler


This project has to be based on stuff available now in order to be done by next year since nearly everything is based off of the drivetrain length. I researched dual zuk cases and a lot of people have done them, no one says anything about them, well, other than they leak oil out on off camber stuff. Another issue might be length, two t-cases and two intermediate shafts means length. Short, no u-joint shafts will have to be dead nuts on. Wonder why the klune mounting kit is $800? Too much variation in the Zuks, there are slots and shims everywhere to get everything lined up perfectly (and it still doesn't work 100% of the time so tehy pulled it off the market).

On t-case strength issues, Marlin doesn't reccomend putting a 4:1 in front of another 21 spline t-case and they have something like 2000 in the field. That's enough convincing for me to look for a beefier option. I really think your underestimating the forces involved with stacking cases. The other thing I looked into is the massive hit your going to take in highway speed since the Zuk case isn't 1:1. Yeah I trailer, but I did drove this thing 180+ miles in Moab, woulda sucked if my top end was 50mph (actually with all the wind I was lucky to see 50, it did suck).
[/B]


they said we didn't understand when the 6.1's came out too......trust me Rob knows what he is doing..and is working on a single box with dual gears...(Zuk) much like the dual t-case (Yota and Tracker tranny to Yota adaptor he makes).....he is also working on a 1-1 gearbox..should be done, just about the time you get done with your set-up....;-(

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler



Why not build a toy? It's not as light (didn't I say that earlier :confused: ). From what I have seen they don't flex like a Zuk can, they are wide, I can't see over the hood, it wouldn't fit on my trailer, it's longer than I want to be, I like the way Zuks look...... The only reason to build a toy is if I needed more room.


If it truly costs less please post the numbers. From what I can see you can't buy the parts needed to do dual zuk cases yet so I didn't look at that option. The reason why I posted was to get feedback before I spent a lot of money. I presented what I found and it looks like if you need to go deep, it's cheaper to move away from the Zuk stuff. If I am wrong, give me the numbers. I want to spend as little as possible to reach my goals.
[/B]

so your saying those Yota guys you wheel with can't do the same trails? or you can't figure out how to build one to suit your needs....? just kidding


Originally posted by Azrckcrawler



Project update: Based on my postings on various lists I already have decided against going for super deep gearing with an automatic tranny. Seems they will creep forward, possibly overpowering your brakes when in double low. There's a good thread about it in general 4x4. Some guys don't feel it's a problem, some do. So I am evaluating using a sidekick case combined witha toy case behind that. The kick low gear is pretty high at 1.82:1, combined with the auto and 4.7 in the toy case gives approx. 108:1 double low and some other interesting combinations. Best part is it's cheaper, easier to mount and eliminates the intermediate driveshaft. I am going to look into this some more. [/B]

Good luck, keep us posted....I hope your taking this all in fun...I like the work you have done.and all the checking into all of this you have also done....

I'll run out and get a winch for my Birthday (today) and run Asylum this weekend..before you do....hehe

I totally agree with AZ's reasoning, except for the the auto, but that's a preference issue. After wheeling with an auto in my IH, I just never liked waiting for the converter to load up, and then have it go all at once.

The zuk width, light weight, 1600, all work to make for a narrow light combo, with enough power to go down the road, without tearing things apart. Jason pushes his on 36s with an 8v, 4.1 and 4.88s or 5.29s.

I also thing getting rig of the divorce mount is a good idea, the whole zuk tcase mounting set-up sucks. Yes you can make it strong, but its still not a good set-up IMHO.

If you think building a toy would be the same thing look at my zuk next to a toy. Incontrol has the exact same axles as mine and his looks totally street legal, mine looks like a flatty with 1-ton axles, essentialy my entire 12.50s are exposed.

Anyways you wheel enough to know what you want, so I say go for it!! I did :D

Originally posted by Arizona Zuk


IMO if I was to go back to square one....I would use an efi 1.3 (no adaptors needed, plenty of Power for a trailer queen stricktly off-road Zuk) then use SUMO 6.1 with front and rear ARB's, 5.29 gears in Toy axles, 35" MTR's or 35" SSR's/SX's Toyota Power Steering (Like Mr. Sumo's) that gearing would be lower than what I have now, plus stronger axles......judging how I did against the Toyotas on Upper FireBird....it should do fine for Asylum with a bigger winch than what I have now....add in an all tube body like a Mini Shannon Campbell rig....



See, now that's a plan. You stated what you wanted and that it did what it needed to do for you. I respect that.


I have wheeled with you when you wanted to turn back.....it was your first time through Upper FB....LOL



Lol, I remember you telling me you'd never need a tire bigger than 33's, or there was no need for stronger axles and that D44's were the way to go.... Those were the days...... I too once thought I could get away with smaller tires and stock axles but the damn trails people keep opening look less and less like a trail.

Yea, when Firebird first opened it was nasty, add to that I had 32" bfgs, that was one of the hardest trails I had driven at the time. Last time out there Zags and I ran up UF after starting Asylum but turning back. 10 minutes later we were at the top of the newest section. The trail was way easier than even the last time I took those guys thru it, word must be getting out about the trails out there, too much traffic.


37's may be too tall, and with Yota axles, may not be needed, but they aren't that much taller than 35's and they work great with our gearing......



Since a lot of the new trails i have been hitting have a lot of vertical stuff I figured I should stretch the WB little. The 37's are for better breakover angles. 35's are great on a closer to stock WB Zuk, I have no clearance complaints.


they said we didn't understand when the 6.1's came out too......trust me Rob knows what he is doing..and is working on a single box with dual gears...(Zuk) much like the dual t-case (Yota and Tracker tranny to Yota adaptor he makes).....he is also working on a 1-1 gearbox..should be done, just about the time you get done with your set-up....;-(



Sounds like your making Dual Crawler. Sounds cool, I'll mark my calendar. So he's already making these adapters? Why don't you sell them?


so your saying those Yota guys you wheel with can't do the same trails? or you can't figure out how to build one to suit your needs....? just kidding


:rolleyes: I expected more out of you.


Good luck, keep us posted.... [/B]

Originally posted by Root Moose


Yes. Chris, as a frame of reference: stock 5 speed TracKicks have 5.125:1 axle gearing and 205s.

Another modified frame of reference, Mudkick is running 33s and 5.89 D44s. He finds it lacking but doable on road. That is a stock 8V though; cam, header, raised fuel pressure etc. would probably wake it up some. He finds it fine off-road but isn't a rock crawler so ymmv.

Remember what i was saying about the high range reduction being a displacement normalizer....?

If you went 2.0 or diesel you'd probably have no issues. That is speculation on my part.

r@m

Cool, this is the kind of real world info I am looking for. I hadn't really thought much about the streetability as fas as being undergeared. Any problem with running the kick case in low on the highway (acting like the high range reduction in a normal Zuk case)? I figured with 37's I'd be turning 4.3k at 55mph.

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler


Cool, this is the kind of real world info I am looking for. I hadn't really thought much about the streetability as fas as being undergeared. Any problem with running the kick case in low on the highway 9acting like the high range reduction in a normal Zuk case)? I figured with 37's I'd be turning 4.3k at 55mph.

I don't see why you couldn't; problem becomes, when would you put it into high range at that point I guess. An extra lever/weight that you'd never use - maybe in combination with low on the second t-case? :)

4.3k is pretty good for a dedicated machine. If you ever put more gears into the TracKick portion you'd drive your RPMs up so something like 4.3/1.825*4.24 = 9900 RPM. :nuke: :nuke: BOOM!

Just so you have the numbers for certain, TracKick low range is 1.825:1, Calmini is 4.24:1, Rockhopper is something like 3.8:1

r@m

RE: Kick case in low on highway.

My response was with the assumption that the front output would be lopped off or missing or...no chain to drive.

r@m

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler



:rolleyes: I expected more out of you.



hey, I like giving you enough crap to keep you on your toes....

anyway, it's my 50th BD.....whatcha expect from an old guy?

Originally posted by Root Moose
RE: Kick case in low on highway.

My response was with the assumption that the front output would be lopped off or missing or...no chain to drive.

r@m



Yes - the OTT kit modifies the Sidekick t-case so it is only a Hi-Lo gearbox w/o the front output or chain.



Chris, this weekend you could go "test drive" a 'Kick with the t-case in Low and see how it sounds at 5 grand :D

I talked with some poeple about the 22R motors. The general concensus is they realistically put out only 105 or so HP. Most felt they were a little overrated by Toyota. So unless the torque curve is loads better than a 1.6 I am not sure if the swap is really that beneficial unless you can get the donor motor for cheap?

Originally posted by Azrckcrawler
I talked with some poeple about the 22R motors. The general concensus is they realistically put out only 105 or so HP. Most felt they were a little overrated by Toyota. So unless the torque curve is loads better than a 1.6 I am not sure if the swap is really that beneficial unless you can get the donor motor for cheap?


holy crap....I can get more than that out of a 1.3, and it's half the weight.....

Rob put his on a dyno, got 117 hp......

This (I think I saved it off of incontrol's page a while back) seems like a fairly faithful rating to me for toy motors:

Horsepower:
Cab'd 22R:
103hp @ 4800rpm
EFI'd 22R-E:
116hp @ 4800rpm
Turbo 22R-ET
135hp @ 4800rpm

Toy motors aren't that powerful in the HP category. The big difference between them and Zuk motors is torque.

Torque:
Carbed 22R:
133ft-lb @ 2800rpm
EFI 22R-E:
140ft-lb @ 2800rpm
Turbo 22R-ET
173ft-lb @ 2800rpm

You asked how we'd build a rig if we were starting over, so here goes:
Zuk frame / body
22RET Motor, Tranny
D44 front axle at both ends (5.89 gears, Spool, ARB)
Hydraulic rear steering, independent from front.
As little body, much tube as possible. Light.
Four seats, with the pairs set close together as possible. Narrow.
38x12.50 TSLs
8274 / HS9500i winch in front
My current superwinch X9 out back. Good but too slow.

There you go. I want 4 wheel steering, because I like long wheelbases (at least 105") and this lets it turn like a stock SWB zuk or flatfender, as well as crab-steering. D44 because no one has solid axle Toy parts in the yards around here, and I don't feel like buying new chromoly ones, which are overkill on the rig I want to build.

22RET because it's tranny is almost in granny-low country (4.31:1) and it's 23-spline. With 23-spline toy cases, marlin has no aversions to you running a 4.7 in the front case. I would have an aversion to it though, since once you hit 200:1, anything lower is wasted $$$.

Back to the 22RE swap in a zuk. If you're going to swap in the motor alone, there's not much reason to do it except that it puts out twice the torque of the 16V motor. There ARE reasons to do it, but they all involve bringing it's whole drivetrain with it.... The 4-ish to 1 first gear and torquey (vs. a sammy) mill lets you run with a 1:1 high range. You get one of the two cases you'll need with the swap, and the only adapter you'll need is $370, and made by 5 different companies. Take your pick. You get a centered rear output shaft, and you can run 21-spline cases without worrying about breaking them. Just keep the 4.7s in the back case. You get 2WD in stock (2.28:1) low (front case in low, rear in 2HI) so it's a quasi-twinstick, just not in creepy low.

Hey Dave you said "get". That opens up a whole other area. LC engineering "gets" over 400 hp out of the ones they build! It all just depends what you want I cant decide for my self at this moment. For easy power use a 20r head with a little work, a cam, header, and a offy intake with the webber or the four barrel and you can get about 185 or so from a toy with simple bolt on.
Just some food for thought.

Originally posted by Dr. Evil
This (I think I saved it off of incontrol's page a while back) seems like a fairly faithful rating to me for toy motors:

Horsepower:
Cab'd 22R:
103hp @ 4800rpm
EFI'd 22R-E:
116hp @ 4800rpm
Turbo 22R-ET
135hp @ 4800rpm

Toy motors aren't that powerful in the HP category. The big difference between them and Zuk motors is torque.

Torque:
Carbed 22R:
133ft-lb @ 2800rpm
EFI 22R-E:
140ft-lb @ 2800rpm
Turbo 22R-ET
173ft-lb @ 2800rpm



Thanks for the info. I agree, there's no replacement for displacement :D I have a"built" 1.3, only thing I didn't do was an aftermarket carb since they all suck offroad. I also don't think a little more weight up front will hurt things after watching Erik's rig in action.

So what is the stock torque output of a 1.6 16v?

1.3

Horsepower (SAE net) 60 hp @ 6500 rpm (45 kw)
Torque (SAE net) lb.-ft. @ 3500 rpm - Not listed, thought it was 50-60lb-ft?

1.6 8v

Horsepower (SAE net) 80 hp @ 5400 rpm
Torque (SAE net) 94 lb.-ft. @ 3300 rpm

1.6 16v

Couldn't find any torque specs:confused: , did find the 1.8 listed as 114 lb=ft. I guess close to 100 lb-ft.

Originally posted by Dr. Evil
EFI 22R-E:
140ft-lb @ 2800rpm





:grinpimp::grinpimp::grinpimp: