I'm pretty sure that when rockcrawling for leisure, deep gears are king...in other words, its the only way to go. For competition however, it appears as though gears are not as important and speed tends to rule. So what are the HARDCORE rockcrawling gurus running and what re their preferences?

I'm running a C-6 to a 205 and 4.88 pumpkins. Seems to run well and lets me get through obstacles with speed. Could I make it in CalROCS? I need to make my mind up fast......comps are around the corner.

You need to have both. Some spots are so technical, that you really need to be able to creep. But you do need the ability to FULLY GET IT when needed. ;)

Seems like maybe 25 to 30 to one for haulin ass with an auto.

Originally posted by Rock Toy
I'm running a C-6 to a 205 and 4.88 pumpkins. Seems to run well and lets me get through obstacles with speed. Could I make it in CalROCS? I need to make my mind up fast......comps are around the corner.

let me offer some points here, as someone who had it all from 300:1 manual(!!) and up to very a fast gearing:-

1) what you have now is 2.52x1.96x4.88
x2(torque converter)=48:1.
if you run large tires, this is way too fast, and it will do
only for hammering and going fast.

2) a good crawl ratio is between 100-130:1(believe me, ABSOLUTELY no need for more), but you should also
have to be able to go faster, like 25-30:1.

3) your choices in your rig now are between 48:1(1st); 29:1(2nd); and 19:1(3rd). again, as you probably felt, it's too fast

4) if you could get it to a crawl ratio of about 80-90:1 you will be doing good. you can't get this by gearing down because even with 7.17:1 ring & pinion you wo'nt be able to get there.

5) so, assuming you do not plan on replacing your tranny or t-case(which are both fast but VERY strong and reliable), you can either increase your crawl ratio a little and insignificant bit, or go for a crawlbox like the Klune-V one which is excellent or for an
NP-203/205 doubler..
you will then have a whole new range of possibilities - just calculate the additional ratios coming out of an ADDITIONAL 2.72:1 gearing(the 4:1 is too much and much weaker).

6) if you do consider a t-case swap. then an Atlas
(3.8:1 or 4.3:1 ) will make a difference, or even a doubler
of NP-203/205.

7) if i were in your position(actually i am!) i'd leave it as it is and not invest money trying to make things a LITTLE better, since anyway you cannot get a descent crawl ratio without some major $$$ poured in(the Klune-V H/D with 32 splines in & out shafts is about $2,250!! although i do'nt know how much the doubler costs).

did i make u unhappy? :D:D

BTW - i have 2.48x1.96x6.72x2=65:1. not good with 44'', but there aint nothing much i can do about it except maybe a doubler NP-203/205 which i do'nt feel like right now.

:beer: frog:beer:

Yep, I feel a bit fast right now but with my low-stal converter, it's allright. I do experience a lot of wheelspin when mounting obstacles but its temporary and usually gets me to the top in a hurry :D

You're right on my choices Frog.....and I think that the Atlas might be the solution, when I have the dough. Just finished my taxes..ouch:(

i read chris durham runs 410's, and 3to1 highlander x-case. he also runs an auto tranny ( eithere a 727 or a th400 i can't remember) but i can't remember which. i don't think he is very low at all to be turning 37's. but then again that is the beauty of an auto.

what i have noticed from the competitions i have watched is that many of the competitors use auto's and less gearing for a couple of reasons

1. all the obstacles seem to go up
2. you are penalized for backing up
3. you can creep up and try crawling and if that doesn't work you can gun it and shift to a higher gear

i prefer a manual and as much gearing as i can reasonable afford and make work. i personally think that much over 200:1 is pointless because traction becomes an issue, however power and gearing are similar in that if you don't have it you can't use it. if you want to compete just spend a lot of money and buy all the parts you can think of and then switch them around until you find the setup you like the best.

Originally posted by high5
i read chris durham runs 410's, and 3to1 highlander x-case. he also runs an auto tranny ( eithere a 727 or a th400 i can't remember) but i can't remember which. i don't think he is very low at all to be turning 37's. but then again that is the beauty of an auto.

Yep you're right. And if you want to drive like Chris Durham all the time, be my guest. ;)

Originally posted by Lance


Yep you're right. And if you want to drive like Chris Durham all the time, be my guest. ;)

nope not me!!! i run 4.56's and the 3.8 atlas behind my th400 and i want 5.13's. he sure is fun to watch though! if there ever was a person the "aint skeered" stickers were made for it'd be him! :D

Originally posted by the frog

although i do'nt know how much the doubler costs).



$800 plus the NP203....:D :D :D hopefully i'll get one soon

So 50:1 with a manual isn't good? :D :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

Originally posted by Danger Ranger
So 50:1 with a manual isn't good? :D :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

it ALL depends on what tire size you have.

if you have 31" - it's fine.:beer:
if you have 33" - i'll let you live:D
if you have 35" - it's certainly the last warning
before execution:rasta:
if you have 36" - consider yourself dead. i'm
coming at you right away:flipoff2:
but, if you have 37" and up - you're allready dead, but
for some strange reason you do'nt know it yet.:(

seriously speaking, 50:1 is not enough if you consider yourself a serious rockcrawler. you can call yourself one, only if you got
at least 100:1

and as for manual/auto crawl ratio, there is no difference whatsoever. the ONLY thing to remember with autos, is to
add a multiplication factor of apprx. 2 for the torque
multiplication of the torque converter.

:beer: frog:beer:

Originally posted by the frog

you can call yourself one, only if you got
at least 100:1


I guess Im not a serious rock crawler. I'm only 95:1. :flipoff2:

Hey Frog, when are you coming out for TTC?? What are the dates? Wanna run the Rubicon while you're out? It's only a few hours away from Hollister.....

lance you cannot be a serious rockcrawler and neither am I. The frog on the other hand knows it all i mean his suspension design is awesome... i have never seen rear axle steer as bad as he has

Originally posted by Lance


I guess Im not a serious rock crawler. I'm only 95:1. :flipoff2:

Hey Frog, when are you coming out for TTC?? What are the dates? Wanna run the Rubicon while you're out? It's only a few hours away from Hollister.....

as the # 1 of PBB you deserve a discount, so you're allowed
to have 90:1 to earn the title of a serious rockcrawler.... :D :D

i have a flight booked for the 24nd of May, so i hope to be out of customs on 26-27 of May.

the event is on June 3-7(the first monday of June,
as Four Wheeler like to put it), so i'll have a few
days before and a few days after.

sure would like to run some of those famous trails, but
we'll have to see how everything goes.

thanks a lot for the invitation - it's an honor for me(this time
without the :flipoff2: :rasta: :flipoff2: )

see ya when i see ya

Originally posted by swamper502
[i have never seen rear axle steer as bad as he has [/B]

how come?

and where did you see it?

i wish i knew it all. the fact is i dont know much,

but i try my best to share what i do know.

Originally posted by Lance


Yep you're right. And if you want to drive like Chris Durham all the time, be my guest. ;)

That's how we do it on the right coast.

Frog, i saw a pic of you flexed out around some barrels maybe? any way the pic was from the back passenger side and your rear drivers side tire was not visible because your rear axle was not perpindicular (sp) to your frame. The drivers side had pushed forward and the passenger had pushed back. This is what i call axle steer and its not good. I would try to address the problem before you come to compete of you can. Any way not trying to be an ass but people who make comments that seem to have no basis kinda get on my nerves and i was feeling a little bitchy yesterday.
good luck
later

Originally posted by swamper502
Frog, i saw a pic of you flexed out around some barrels maybe? any way the pic was from the back passenger side and your rear drivers side tire was not visible because your rear axle was not perpindicular (sp) to your frame. The drivers side had pushed forward and the passenger had pushed back. This is what i call axle steer and its not good.

dear Swamper502,
i too, would'nt want to be an ass, as you put it,
but i'm afraid you got it all screwed up, again.

you see, the pic you refered to in your post, is a pic
of the frog taken at a time at which the frog
DID NOT HAVE A REAR STEERING AT ALL!!!:rolleyes:

so, i fail to see how you could tell that a
nonexisting rear steer was the worst you have
ever seen...... :flipoff2: :rasta: :rasta:

the rear steering came a short time afterwards, and therefore
what you have seen was a regular rear axle with it's two
wheels on the ground, while one of them - because of the
photografer's position - was behind the other, and thats it!!

dont you think you were a bit too hasty and
eager to gig me, with no real reason?

anyway, i'm not in the office now, so i cant post
a pic of the VERY WELL built rear steer the frog NOW
has, but i promise i'll post it soon, so you'll be able to see
an EXISTING rear steer, and even comment on it ;) ;) ;)

it is our independence day here in ISRAEL, and we are celebrating it, so i forgive you :D:D:D

HERE IS TO YOU:beer: :beer:

I think swamper is refering to rear stear as in how the axle moves when the suspension flexs ie not staying in line with the frame rails. Dont think he ment a 4 wheel steering setup. Just a guess on my part. Good luck at TTC

Matt

Frog,

What he's referring to, is articulation induced rear steer, caused by link geometry. Some people view this as the devil incarnate, but, many, if not most, use it to thier advantage, and design a little into thier suspension. Once you get used to it, you can use it to steer the rearend around stuff, that you just climbed with your front tire. Your suspension has quite a bit, but obviously its not a concern for you, and it works very well.

By rear steer he mean the rear end wakling under the truck. What he failed to think about is the fact that rear steer is almost impossible to be avoided. When the links on a 4 link go down, they travel in a eliptical arch. This causes the tire traveling down, to travel down and FORWARD, and the tire movin up to travel up and BACK. It is very simple to undersatnd really once it is thought about. Show me a single pic of a extreme travel suspension that travels in a straight up and down motion. Hell even leaf springs travel that way.

Dimitri

that was fun to read :D

HAHAHAHA! you guys are funny... So back to the GEARING issue...
I am gonna run a 465-4:1klune-205-rockwells. I plan on leaving it in 4:1 low MOST of the time. This will give me options around 170:1, 85:1, 42:1, and 25:1(ballpark #'s) then, if i want to put the 205 in low also, i can double each of those figures(this won't happen very often, but it will be nice to have) I will be running 40" TSL's for RCAA, and 44" TSL's for other comps. So, the larger tire size dictates a little lower gearing on my part. I have 86:1 now with no Klune-V, and 33" tall tires. I feel that it still moves wayyy too fast unless i slip the clutch. I don't want to have to slip the clutch all the time, so a 4:1 is what i am gonna go with. I feel that this setup will give the best options, and offer a gear for any situation i can find. Now i have 2 gears that are useful, Granny for crawling, and 1st for bumping. With the Klune, i will have a lot more options to choose from for different grades, and traction situations.

PS Lance, I laugh every time i see Chris Durham drive... He played too much "Red-Light , Green-Light" when he was young. I think its obvious which light he likes better. But hey, he is enternaing, and as long as he only destroys his own vehicle, then more power to him!!

laters-

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
HAHAHAHA! you guys are funny... So back to the GEARING issue...
I have 86:1 now with no Klune-V, and 33" tall tires. I feel that it still moves wayyy too fast unless i slip the clutch. I don't want to have to slip the clutch all the time.

What ? 86:1 w/ 33s is too fast ? I find that hard to believe. What kind of trail would dictate going that slow ? I'm at 60:1 +/- with 39.5s and I don't have a problem with going too fast. Lets see some pics. of this badass terrain.
-

Come on Dirtrod, have you not looked at any of the pic's posted of the rocks found to inhabit the west, and I guess even texass.

Bring your 60:1 butt out to one our events and tell me it's cool:D

Rich

Exactly, big rich. The spot where i usually wheel is wet limestone, and high gearing makes it impossible to climb anything because you just spin the tires. However you can't use 350:1 either, or you won't have enough momentum to get over a ledge. Mt point is this: there is a perfect gear for each obstacle for any given vehicle, and i want to have as many of those different gears as possible, or get as close as i can to each of them.

laters-

Originally posted by RockRanger
I think swamper is refering to rear stear as in how the axle moves when the suspension flexs ie not staying in line with the frame rails. Dont think he ment a 4 wheel steering setup. Just a guess on my part. Good luck at TTC

Matt

WOW, is my english THAT bad?!:( :(

sorry, i thought that when someone says "rear steer"
he means "rear steering" and not rear axle strange behaviour.

oh well, i'm pretty sure i still got a lot to learn, and i'm
not kidding here.

how is my spelling? sucks too, hah?:D:D

anyway, if i misunderstood what swamper
was saying, i appologize

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
HAHAHAHA! you guys are funny... So back to the GEARING issue...
I am gonna run a 465-4:1klune-205-rockwells. I plan on leaving it in 4:1 low MOST of the time. This will give me options around 170:1, 85:1, 42:1, and 25:1(ballpark #'s) then, if i want to put the 205 in low also, i can double each of those figures(this won't happen very often, but it will be nice to have) I will be running 40" TSL's for RCAA, and 44" TSL's for other comps

PLEASE elf cruiser, DO'NT run a David(4:1) Klune -V
with 44"s, please?!? it will probably get chewed
faster than you think.

and dont say you have'nt been warned!!

if the Klune's shaft brekas, you will not be able to fix
it on the trail or in the middle of a comp. this is BTW the biggest drawback of this fine product - when the shaft goes, you're seriously fucked because it is hard to replace and you usually do'nt keep one spare.

if you want a Klune - V crawlbox( and rightly so) with 44"s,
go for the Goliath H/D 32 splines(2.72:1) - it's low enough
and it is much stronger.

oh, one more thing - the weak point of any Klune's boxe, is the shaft's "neck". it's the narrow part of the shaft which parts the two splined areas of the shaft.
you would do good if you would prepare a spare shaft, so you wo'nt have to order it if/when it goes.
you can either order a spare one from Klune-V, or you can have one made out of a large diameter old axleshaft you find in any junkyard. it should be cut and splined(and punctured for oil flow) to be the same as the original shaft. should'nt cost more than
a 100 bucks.
the shaft i had made, held longer than the original one and worked just great.
good fuck(ooooops, sorry, i meant good luck):D:D:D

oh, one more thing i forgot to mention, elf-cruiser.

i have a BRAND NEW Goliath H/D 32 splines in/out that i got free of charge from Klune - V after the shaft of the David(4:1) i had was broken.

i decided not to install it because of what i said in my earlier post, and because i think it's risky to have one if you're in for comps.

i'll sell you mine if you want for a nice price. do'nt know though about shipping.

dirtrod, Michigan has nothing that requires anything more than 60:1...Wisconsin is the same way. However, spend some time in Attica, Tellico, etc and you'll see the need.

I'm at 62:1 with 38.5 tires and am too fast....not always, but enuf to warrant a doubler. Got the parts at home for the 203 setup and will be doing that this summer...knocks me to 120:1 or so....very workable.

Originally posted by the frog


WOW, is my english THAT bad?!:( :(

sorry, i thought that when someone says "rear steer"
he means "rear steering" and not rear axle strange behaviour.

oh well, i'm pretty sure i still got a lot to learn, and i'm
not kidding here.

how is my spelling? sucks too, hah?:D:D

anyway, if i misunderstood what swamper
was saying, i appologize

Dont worry it means both :D I know I didnt know what it was till I started hanging out here.

Matt

Originally posted by woody
dirtrod, Michigan has nothing that requires anything more than 60:1...Wisconsin is the same way. However, spend some time in Attica, Tellico, etc and you'll see the need.



Boy I cant wait to hear this one coming. Dirtrod, Tellico??? Dirtrod, Attica??? Was it directions you were looking for because I am sure he can provide you with anything you need to know about those places.:rolleyes:

clc900, have you or dirtrod run the offsite trail at Attica? Honestly, nothing in the park itself touches that area....truely a great and fun experience. I was part of the inaugural ride a couple years back and have led a couple trips thru there. The pink trail is 2wd fodder by comparison....even the "extreme" section along the pond is nothing.

Will be there in June, leading the PBB tour, IIRC, June 20th or something like that. Join on in!!

edit: clc900 and dirtrod, I made an open judgement based on the individuals I have met and wheeled with from Michigan. Thus far, I have seen LOTS of mud skill and right foot technology, but not much in the way of rock crawl ability. You two may well be the exception, and likely are, but my wife refuses to attend events hosted by some of the MI clubs we've wheeled with in the past. Sorry to lump you all together...

Of course, this is the same wife who considers the pink trail boring...

Rock toy, I think the D44 in the front of your jeep may hurt you in comps. I've seen it blow axles in the parking lot:D :D Seriously bring it up, that'd be 4 rigs boasting B&T stickers!!!!!!!!!!

I too fugg'n tired to deliver a adequate response, thanks clc900. : )

I've been around attica a few times, and never found anything that needed deeper gears... Bigger tires, fatter rodends and stronger wheels maybe, but not deeper gears.
I've been everywhere in tellico several times, and there is no place there that requires exteme gearing, I can do most of tellico in 2nd gear low range, and all but a few places in 2wd.

Woody, I'll be in Jellico until monday, then Tellico for the next 2 wks., come-on down.
: )

Sergei, just SACK UP and LET'S GET IT!!!! Dude, I will get the time off School and then we can BEAT SOME ASS!!!

Dima

Originally posted by Wilson
Rock toy, I think the D44 in the front of your jeep may hurt you in comps. I've seen it blow axles in the parking lot:D :D Seriously bring it up, that'd be 4 rigs boasting B&T stickers!!!!!!!!!!

You mean my Dana 44 with WARN shafts & CTM Joints ? :flipoff2:

My main concern is not having the Fuel Injection hooked up yet......I ran into some problems down in JV with the motor carbing out on the steep climbs. I'll see if I can get it installed this weekend.

Not worried about the gearing AT ALL :smokin:

Hey Frog, when did you buy your 4:1 Klune? They had problems when they first came out, and they warrantied a lot of them. They have now fixed the prob, and the David is supposed to be as strong as the Goliath now. I am running this drivetrain behind a cruiser engine, so i am not very worried about breaking either one. Also, which Klune-V do you have that you want to sell??, and how much do you want for it??

laters-

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
Hey Frog, when did you buy your 4:1 Klune?

about 18 months ago. when it broke, they warrantied it and even upgraded me to the Goliath, free of charge. i guess they did the upgrade, because they knew i was running big tires and they did'nt want to take the chance of another breakage.

the David is supposed to be as strong as the Goliath now.

NO WAY. the goliath is stronger. look at the spec sheet of
Klune - V in their website about in/out torques and you'll see why it's true. it also has an H/D version as i said in my post - 32 splines in/out shaft. i'll say it again - i do'nt think you should run 44"s with a crawlbox other than the H/D Goliath, and not because i have it.:D:D

Also, which Klune-V do you have that you want to sell?

the H/D Goliath 32 splines in/out including foot mount and adapters for TH-400 to NP-205.

Originally posted by Danger Ranger
So 50:1 with a manual isn't good? :D :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

Originally posted by the frog


it ALL depends on what tire size you have.

if you have 31" - it's fine.:beer:
if you have 33" - i'll let you live:D
if you have 35" - it's certainly the last warning
before execution:rasta:
if you have 36" - consider yourself dead. i'm
coming at you right away:flipoff2:
but, if you have 37" and up - you're allready dead, but
for some strange reason you do'nt know it yet.:(

seriously speaking, 50:1 is not enough if you consider yourself a serious rockcrawler. you can call yourself one, only if you got
at least 100:1

and as for manual/auto crawl ratio, there is no difference whatsoever. the ONLY thing to remember with autos, is to
add a multiplication factor of apprx. 2 for the torque
multiplication of the torque converter.

:beer: frog:beer:

So what if I told you I was running 38's :flipoff2:

You're right, I'm not a Rockcrawler, nor do I want to be one. Rockcrawlers spend too much time stacking rocks so they don't dent their show rigs.

I prefer to stretch the throttle cable, bounce off rocks and break lots of shit instead. :nuke: :flipoff2:

I prefer to stretch the throttle cable, bounce off rocks and break lots of shit instead.

mmm, okay, sounds like fun. Maybe i should just get rid of my tcase all together, and hook the tranny straight to the axles, hmmmm....