JP Mag Article - "Spring Over is Dead"

[sbisig]

Just got copy of JP magazine yesterday.

On page 86, there is article titled "Spring Over is Dead"

Thoughts on the article...Bullshit or is there some factual info here?

[Aubl14]

There is factual info.

[Redmist]

Crap I Just did SOA on the back of my rig...


Now what should I do!? :eek: :shaking: :rolleyes:

[TSM_88YJ]

WHAAA? Did it say WHY or WHY is SOA dead? What is the alternative. Just really flexy SUA?

[wiggamoe]

I would agree that for the most part SOA is dead, along with SUA. Jeeps these days run coils. Rather than saying SOA is dead, they should mention that leaf springs are dying because their application is used less today than 20 years ago.

Kind of like how carb'd engines died a while back.

[crawlmag]

If that is true then "Affordable trail rigs are dead too" because not all of us can afford coilovers and link suspension. Some of the hardest dudes I run with are SOA with Biltstein shocks... wanna try us on the trail Jp? :flipoff2:

CRAWL vs. Jp, editors bring what they consider an affordable, streetable Jeep and let's run some shit!

[mrblaine]

If that is true then "Affordable trail rigs are dead too" because not all of us can afford coilovers and link suspension. Some of the hardest dudes I run with are SOA with Biltstein shocks... wanna try us on the trail Jp? :flipoff2:

CRAWL vs. Jp, editors bring what they consider an affordable, streetable Jeep and let's run some shit!

If you get this going, who's gonna supply the blow-up dolls to keep 'em entertained?

[bowtied_micky]

Jp is right, it is dead. that doesn't mean that we will stop but vehicles today are more and more coils. SOAs are great and flex very very well but more and more TJs and KJs are showing up on the trails and CJs are being laid to rest after years of use and abuse. Will SOA ever be truly dead, i doubt it but SOA is a dying sport being religated to core wheelers who know how good it can be for consideribly cheaper.


micky

[bigjeep85]

SOA may be dead for those with more money that brains, but i will convert my FSJ to SOA and use rear coils just to bob the rear not because its a popular thing to do or because jp said so.

[Pietro]

leafsprings are dead? Are you fawkin nuts. That is why there are tons of Suzukis, Toyotas, and Jeeps out there running them. Leafsprings are dead if you drive a bling'd out coilover rig.

I stopped reading JP after the one article they wrote on running a 30 with
38's.:laughing:

[Marc Daniels]

Magazine Propaganda at its finest, get sucked into their bullshit way of building things, and you'll have $30,000 into a $3000 trail rig. Keep it simple and practical, and you may even have some money left over for gas to make it to the trail.

[UCTJ]

If that is true then "Affordable trail rigs are dead too" because not all of us can afford coilovers and link suspension. Some of the hardest dudes I run with are SOA with Biltstein shocks... wanna try us on the trail Jp? :flipoff2:

CRAWL vs. Jp, editors bring what they consider an affordable, streetable Jeep and let's run some shit!


This I would love to see, but as far as leafs being dead.....yeah sure:shaking: :rolleyes: thats why I am seeing more and more TJs strectched with leafs in the rear. Sure coilovers have become more and more common as the prices drop kinda, but, I dont think leafs will ever die, they just may not be OEM on new 4x4s....but thats JP mag. pushing more bullshit. After all, even though they try to make you think that they pay for the shit they put on their rigs, I dont believe that for a second.

[currupt4130]

I bet if there were to be a poll of all the trail vehicles on here and whether they run a coil sprung suspension or a SOA, we would get suprisingly low numbers for the coils. As big and cool as they are, and as much as coils and links are in the limelight, I don't think they've got us leaf sprung rigs beat. There are so many people out there without the extra money, know how, or who just know what works for them, that they haven't, or won't switch to coils. There are a lot of people who put tons of time into desiging link suspensions, but that setup isnt for everyone. I think it has gotten blown up with all the tech build ups seen here and all the great innovation we get from the board. Sure an SOA may not be big news anymore, but it is no way dead, it is by far one of the best suspension set ups that has been tried and tested for years on end. It's alive and kickin ass.

[rustywagoneersdotcom]

wow, i guess that means one-links and 1/4 ellipticals a flippin FOSSILS now... oh well, i was never gonna get in a magazine anyway...

peace
Dave

next month

14 bolts are dead!

[HsOffRoad]

I didn't read the article, but I can tell you that springover conversions are not the way to go for hardcore obstacles & serious use.

If you are running hardcore vertical obstacles, you want your vehicle as low & as stable as possible. Spring overs generate a minimum of approx. 5-6 inches of lift, unless you swap out springs. Even with the swapped springs, the vehicle physically has to be taller with this configuration. Besides, if it's locked at both ends, lifiting a tire won't stop forward progress, in fact, it transfers weight to the opposite tire, generating increased contact pressure, and often times creates extra ground clearance by lifting the tire. Spring over also leads to increased axle wrap... which necessitates a traction bar. If you are building traction bars you might as well put a link supsension on the thing. Spring over generates increased body roll, which is a mess on sidehills.

And no, I'm no being bias towards link suspensions - my old buggy was on leafs, and they do have their benefits... but they are not the best for hardcore use...

On a whole.. you can't believe everything you read in the 4wd magazines. If you want to understand your 4wd, first get out and look underneath of it it. Then take it out and wheel it, pay attention to the feelings you get as you drive it.. feel what is going on. Then get back underneath of it and figure out what just happened and why. You might need to take some stuff apart, but pretty soon things will begin to make sense and you'll start to understand what is needed to make a capable 4wd. If you try to build your truck based purely off of what you read, you're in for a really big headace and a lot less money in your pocket.

Hans

[jmhinescj]

I havn't been reading jp for the last couple of years...ever since they started fillin about half of each issue with bullshit...I think the last issue I read had an article about puttin a flame job on a FSJ. So of course I havn't seen the article, probably just a "shocker" to make people want to pick it up and take it home
if they relly believe that springover is dead then theyr'e nuts...even if you look at pirate, a pretty good conglomoration of the most dedicated rockcrawlers you will find, a lot of guys (50% or so?) are running a modified version of whatever kind of suspension came on their rig stock. TJ=coils with long arms, cj/yj=springover with longer leaves and trac bar.
Yea, for a lot of guys (myself included) coils are the ultimate goal, but for as expensive, time consuming, and difficult as it is to convert to coils and links it just makes more sense to springover it and get back out on the trail

[BCYJ]

wow, i guess that means one-links and 1/4 ellipticals a flippin FOSSILS now...

Damn, 1/3 Eliptical was my next project.... I guess i better do as the mag says and add coils to me leafs....

:shaking: :shaking:

Leafs will never die, K.I.S.S.

[NE-RokToy]

Cavey hit the nail on the head. As long as there are people who wheel without an unlimited budget their will be SOA rigs out their.

[elarsen]

If you are running hardcore vertical obstacles, you want your vehicle as low & as stable as possible. Spring overs generate a minimum of approx. 5-6 inches of lift, unless you swap out springs.......
Hans


Ever heard of frenched mounts?:flipoff2:

[hammerman94]

If that is true then "Affordable trail rigs are dead too" because not all of us can afford coilovers and link suspension. Some of the hardest dudes I run with are SOA with Biltstein shocks... wanna try us on the trail Jp? :flipoff2:

CRAWL vs. Jp, editors bring what they consider an affordable, streetable Jeep and let's run some shit!

I would like to donate my rig to this cause if it ever happens. Haven't ramped it but it works damn good. I have friends that run 18" fox airs in the back four linked and tj set up in the front and I flex just as much as if not more than him. Have another guy with four linked rear and coils, radius arms and coils in front...kill him...

It all depends on the set up...leafs are just fine by me.

[xtusseryx]

Spring over also leads to increased axle wrap... which necessitates a traction bar. If you are building traction bars you might as well put a link supsension on the thing.
So you recomend completly tearing apart a vehicle to put a link suspension in which can take the average person without a large fab shop two months to make, over something that could be made in a weekend. Great idea.

[SanDiegoCJ]

Magazine Propaganda at its finest, get sucked into their bullshit way of building things, and you'll have $30,000 into a $3000 trail rig. Keep it simple and practical, and you may even have some money left over for gas to make it to the trail.


Thread winner ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[wiggamoe]

While I didn't read the article, I can see how SOA might be dead in reference to OEM vehicles. Our "offroad" modified vehicles account for a very small percentage of 4x4s sold. SOA is dead for most OEM applications compared to 20 years ago.

[ACHASE6002]

I Think The Article Was A Sua Vs Soa, Not Just Agianst Leaves In General

[Droopy]

Yeah...I glanced at it in the store. It showed a company's u-bolt flip kit and how to get as much ground clearance as possible by staying SUA. It seemed the article was just trying to push that you can make SUA work really good and not hang you up if you tried going the SUA route.

[OlBlueCJ7]

JP - the shortest way to spell "No Talent Ass Clowns"

Just because they fucked up a SOA and can't get it to work for them, doesn't mean they aren't feasible. They just aren't feasible for half-assed hacks who fab with a hacksaw and JB Weld.
:rolleyes:

[Mr.N]

Yeah...I glanced at it in the store. It showed a company's u-bolt flip kit and how to get as much ground clearance as possible by staying SUA. It seemed the article was just trying to push that you can make SUA work really good and not hang you up if you tried going the SUA route.
SO they are just pimping their advertisers product and made and article to pretend they believe the point.

[Cue-Ball]

I can see it now. Telling my grand kids that my first trail rig had SUA and I converted it to SOA. They will look at me with the same blank look they have when I tell them my first computer used DOS.

[Pietro]

It seems that JP has a ton of useless shit in it. I did like the Hot Dog J truck though. Little different of a build. I got tired of reading about dana35 tech and one more "different" sye install. They are all the same!

[AttemptingTJ]

I just dont get it, if spring over was dead, then why would all chevy, ford, dodge trucks come stock with SOA configuration, plus some of those trucks have big fuckin blocks too..... Axlewrap much.

My cj is gettin SOA soon.

[Jeepnford]

I read the article. The biggest problem they encountered was breaking the traction bar a couple of times. Maybe Bree could show them how to build one. They also wrote you could get as good of flex SUA with some of the newer type springs. Oh,and buy these U-Bolt flip kits. JP has gone to Crappa. (Or is that Cappa?)

[MitaDC128]

JP's argument for the death of SOA was that almost the same flex could be gained without the headache that goes with axle wrap. They mentioned the Rubicon Express leafs, which I can personal vouche for.

They also argued that the older leaf packs made SOA a better option. Now, due to market demand, a better leaf pack for SUA is here, which does seem to be true.

I would be interested in some actual head to head study. Not just some writer talking about his fabricated stuff breaking.

Again, its like arguing over which gun shoots better when its really about the shooter.

[GPIN]

From what I got from the article, they left the front SOA and went SUA in the rear. They then pimped a few products (U-bolt flip kit from Dynatrac and RE springs). They then tried to explain spring torque and why SUA will result in less wheel hop. However, their side bar that demonstrated the lower spring "torque" SUA has an eror in it in that the formula result was not mathmatically correct. Simple solution and the numbers do equate to lower potential for spring wrap SUA (assuming their formula is accurate).

I guess I am glad to be on the "cutting edge" as I finished putting in my rear axle SUA about 2 weeks ago (hangers below the frame so I do not need new springs) and my 5$ U-bolt flip using Dodge PU-ubolt plates. Getting ready to go SOA on the front this weekend. This concept is not new, but I am glad that JP now endorsed it so my heep will be hip. :flipoff2:

[SanDiegoCJ]

I just dont get it, if spring over was dead, then why would all chevy, ford, dodge trucks come stock with SOA configuration, plus some of those trucks have big fuckin blocks too..... Axlewrap much.



Also, the Toyota pickups and 4 Runners were SOA. Crappa edits a crap mag.
I do have a subscription to it though, mostly for the entertainment value of reading articles like this one. :flipoff2:

[Philly2Crazy]

The article has a HUGE flaw, they were comparing an aftermarket SUA kit to going SOA with STOCK springs:
As a nice suprise, we quickly discovered the Rubicon Express springs offered up way more flex than the stock Wranglers with the traction bar
I run RE 1.5" SOA springs on MORE boomerangs with a MORE traction bar in the rear, minus the fact I bend the front main because I like to drop off ledges, I have had no SOA related problems. Coilovers and Air Shocks may be the way of the future, but it really pisses guys off when they spend 60k on a rig and cant get up an obsticle my YJ can! :laughing:

[Geesh]

When I began my build 'way back' in '01, I got it all the tech from here. SOA was huge but had problems, a few were dabbling in more radical 4-link, 3-link, coilovers, etc. A couple things: Pirate was (and is) the place for cutting edge people doing cutting edge rig mods ~ SOA was big; the trend was fueled here when magazines were still pimping 'Big Foot' monster trucks (and rock crawling hadn't caught on) SOA took the springs outa the way, making for more ground clearance below the axle (isn't that what it's all about?) High steer conversions, SRS, anti-wrap ~ these didn't start here, but were honed here and made the SOA practical and improved crawling performance, has this changed? New, more flexy leaf springs are wonderful, but technically, a proper-fabbed SOA offers benefits that still outweigh SUA

Mags like JP, they've lost the edge, they're incapable of setting trends like they once were. Real-time sites with infintely more depth & info like Pirate4x4 render the magazine's tech woefully inadequate.

I've gone to great lengths to design and fab a good rig. Pirate's provided the majority of tech as well as vendors. JP Magazine keeps me occupied on plane flights.

[rustywagoneersdotcom]

snip.....breaking the traction bar a couple of times. .........Crappa. (Or is that Cappa?)

Originally Posted by JP
As a nice suprise, we quickly discovered the Rubicon Express springs offered up way more flex than the stock Wranglers with the traction bar

anyone add these two up and wonder how bad the interference angles / radii were between the arc of the springs and the (ahem) traction bar??

peace
Dave

[Brazoz]

Wow! It took a page and a half before pulling back on the stick. A lot of opinions to an article that had not even been read by those commenting. The article details them (JP) returning their flat fender back to a spring under after dealing with some of the draw backs related to a spring over. Are their negative experiences with a spring over real?... yes. Is axle wrap a problem?... yes. Is a spring over more difficult to install at home for the non fabricator/welder?... yes. Does a traction bar create antisquat and binding?... yes. Am I tearing my Jeep apart to return it to SUA?... no. I guess they pushed your easy button. By the way I don't subscribe to JP, but I do like Bree.

[crawlmag]

we ran Penrose, CO on sunday with 10 rigs, one SUA, 7 SOA and 2 coiled buggies. All made it up, flexed great. Like I said, buy what ya can afford, and learn to drive it. And axle wrap is an issue but with coilovers you get huge issues with unloading... you drop in over a steep obstacle, unload your rears and endo on your lid.

[BadAZYj]

we ran Penrose, CO on sunday with 10 rigs, one SUA, 7 SOA and 2 coiled buggies. All made it up, flexed great. Like I said, buy what ya can afford, and learn to drive it. And axle wrap is an issue but with coilovers you get huge issues with unloading... you drop in over a steep obstacle, unload your rears and endo on your lid.

Not if you peel out in time:grinpimp:

[botiejeep]

SOA will always be around due to its simplicity. Hell we even won Rockports Top Shop challenge with 3 spring over rigs against teams with all coilovers. It depends on the driver and what they feel comfortable with. It is pretty tough to beat a soa rig for an all around wheelin machine.

[bgredjeep]

I'm just glad I already had my Jeep setup like this before JP said they did it. I don't have to deal with the "You just did that b/c the mag did it" crap. Of course, I went from SUA to SOA in front and left the rear SUA instead of the other way around. Works good for me.

[currupt4130]

I run RE 1.5" SOA springs on MORE boomerangs with a MORE traction bar in the rear, minus the fact I bend the front main because I like to drop off ledges, I have had no SOA related problems. Coilovers and Air Shocks may be the way of the future, but it really pisses guys off when they spend 60k on a rig and cant get up an obsticle my YJ can! :laughing:


You know its funny you mention this, I've experienced this same phenomenon... A smaller rig on leafs making something that bigger 4 linked rigs dont. But then again that goes both ways so it really negates the argument for springs and links and puts it to the drivers ability.

[Ferrell's YJ]

My favorite rig that I have seen is right here in town. It is SOA in the the front but in the back it is fox air ride. Still even though its not all SOA but that front has the most amazing flex I have ever seen. The rig is the shit. It helps that he is the main fabricator of the offroad shop he works at.

[crawlmag]

Mags like JP, they've lost the edge, they're incapable of setting trends like they once were. Real-time sites with infintely more depth & info like Pirate4x4 render the magazine's tech woefully inadequate.


Don't lump CRAWL in with them :grinpimp:
I'ma hafta come up with some new blingin, cutting edge shit to prove my point... like a zero link buggy, one links are DEAD! :flipoff2:

[JonsYJjeep]

I run SUA on skyjacker leafs. Works fine for me. If I do anything I'm linking it.

[jesster]

Hazel and Cappa fucked up right from the beginning by using stock YJ leaves to SOA the Jeep...

[Geesh]

Don't lump CRAWL in with them :grinpimp:
I'ma hafta come up with some new blingin, cutting edge shit to prove my point... like a zero link buggy, one links are DEAD! :flipoff2:

Agreed. You've managed to tap into our market and represent it well; thanks:smokin:

[mkozlows]

I just converted my streched CJ-7 to rear 4 link, I was running 1.5 RE leafs in a SOA configuration, It work great with the leafs, went everywhere I ever wanted to go. That being said, even with a traction bar setup, I ended up replacing the rear springs once a year. with all the hype about rear coils I decided to try it.

It took myself and two of my friends one weekend to install a rear coil spring, 4 link setup. It works great......Is it better than leafs as far as crawling is concerned? Maybe!.... it don`t hop any more when climbing, and it does ride a little better. Costs, about 600 bucks, if it last a couple of seasons than it will probably end up paying for itself.

In the end, it really comes down to personal prefrence and what you can afford.

[botiejeep]

I just converted my streched CJ-7 to rear 4 link, I was running 1.5 RE leafs in a SOA configuration, It work great with the leafs, went everywhere I ever wanted to go. That being said, even with a traction bar setup, I ended up replacing the rear springs once a year. with all the hype about rear coils I decided to try it.



Where did you have the traction bar. Sounds like it was on top of the center section.

[mkozlows]

Where did you have the traction bar. Sounds like it was on top of the center section.

I actually had several different designs, The one that seemed to work the best was a Mountain Offroad setup, it still did not prevent the springs from taking on an 'S" shape after a season of abuse.