A "what do you think of" thread

[scraprock]

First, let me make this clear that I love to wheel, camp, hike outdoors. I live for the wilderness, and its the only thing I do.

On to the real issue of the Rubicon. This weekend (6/24/06), I ran the trail for the first time. I have never run it due to my taste in wheeling, I like to go wheeling and camping without seeing a ton of people. Yet, I knew I needed to run this trail at least once in my life. Not only to say I ran that legendary trail, but to see if all the fuss over the status of the trail was real and what my opinion will be.

Pirate4x4 is the largest online 4x4 board, the people who may read this may only be 10% of the people using our trails. After running the Con', I am SEVERLY disturbed. So disturbed that I NEARLY agree with the tree huggers. I am so disgusted with the abuse of the trail and the misconduct on the trail. It is really stomach wrenching.

Here is the "what do you think of" part. How in the world can we speak out to the people who abuse out trails? We cannot because we are hypocrites. The same people who are doing these disgusting acts of abuse are sporting Pirate4x4.com stickers.

How can we advertise to the regular wheelers if we associate ourselves with Pirate4x4? We can raise all the money in the world and convince people that these trails are worth keeping if "we" are the problem?

I would think those who sport the stickers and abuse the trail wont be reading this, so that leaves those who care. What can we do? I myself have vowed to not sign any petitions of send money in support of the con' any longer. We are our own worst enemies.

Am I wrong? I hope so.

[BrettM]

sad but true Matt. I'm almost content to start looking at wheeling and scenery as two different things and go hiking when I want scenery and go to JV when I want wheeling.

[smokd]

(The same people who are doing these disgusting acts of abuse are sporting Pirate4x4.com stickers.) You said it scraprock. 15 years ago when I started wheeling the Rubicon, this whole Pirates of the Rubicon "club" and the destruction of the sluice box started then. This has just gotten worse through the years. I have lots of pictures from back in the day. But I dont see as many of the same faces in these "pirate rigs" as I used too. I will be honest, I have had a few "run ins" with the pirates back then but I can't let a few spoil it for the entire club. I think the damage is done. What happened then is still haunting all of us now. It does not matter if you have a sticker or not, the pirates still get the blame. From what I hear the Pirates of the Rubicon are trying to clean up what happened in the past, but is it too late?

[chartdog]

I was there this weekend also and have been visiting the trail a few times a year for over twenty years now. I do not think you are wrong and I'm afraid that things are such a mess that the Rubicon is already in the process of changing forever.

I was with the TLCA Rubithon group and ran the trail Friday. It was very crowded that day with several other "groups" on the trail. I saw trail rudeness (outside our group) that was consistent with road rage situations on the highways. Once at the springs, people from our own group (I assume) did the traditional mortar and fireworks thing late at night. Years ago I used to laugh and call the Rubicon "The lawless land" but that has to change or we are doomed.

I also think you are right in that very few trail users seem to know anything about the problems and political issues surrounding the trail now. I talked to numerous people that were unaware of the forest service route process or the court decision or even things like Pirates and FOTR.

I'm starting to think that increased rules and restrictions are going to be a reality and that as sad as this is, it may have the effect of pushing the abusers away. In the end it may save the trail but it will be changed forever as we used to know it.

I have a theory that there are two types of off road users these days. There are those of us that have always loved and visited the forests and deserts and happen to also use our vehicles to get there. We tend to understand and respect the outdoors more and take better care of it. Then there are those who were never really involved in outdoor activities and happened to get involved in the relatively new sport of extreme off roading. This group is more likely to not know, not care and is much more likely to trash the places we love. At least that is what I think I see happening.

The event that I just attended was great and I have only good things to say about TLCA and other quality groups working to save the trail. Somehow I still came home a bit sad and think that the trail will never be the same again.

I hope I am wrong too.

[randii]

I am so disgusted with the abuse of the trail and the misconduct on the trail. It is really stomach wrenching.
This, I'll agree with. Some folks are being idiots, and screwing it up for everyone.

Here is the "what do you think of" part. How in the world can we speak out to the people who abuse out trails?
See, here's what I disagree with. I'll walk right up to folks and start talking with 'em. Most are respective to information. Get informed and get the word out... it works.

We cannot because we are hypocrites.
I definitely don't agree with this. I spent most of my weekend working shoulder to shoulder with responsible four-wheelers. Cal4 clubs, unaffiliated independents, and *gasp* Pirates of the Rubicon -- all working together under the umbrella of FOTR.

The same people who are doing these disgusting acts of abuse are sporting Pirate4x4.com stickers.
Then step up next time -- post up pics, for some peer justice, or better yet, submit the evidence to law enforcement so we can get these idiots punished for resource destruction.

How can we advertise to the regular wheelers if we associate ourselves with Pirate4x4?
By that logic, if you see a guy tearing up the trail in a Toyota, you should get rid of your commuter Camry... they both say Toyota on 'em, right?

I myself have vowed to not sign any petitions of send money in support of the con' any longer.
Boy, that'll sure show 'em! :rolleyes: I understand your frustration, but I question your conclusions....

Randii

[randii]

...15 years ago when I started wheeling the Rubicon, this whole Pirates of the Rubicon "club" and the destruction of the sluice box started then.
Three separate events:
1.) you started wheeling
2.) Pirates of Rubicon club
3.) 'destruction' of the sluice box
Which of these things are linked together?

Why are we even talking about what may or may happen fifteen years ago?

Many things have changed. Trail management has changed. Government agencies have changed. Rules have changed. Responsible recreation has changed. A few of the players remain the same, but most of them have aged and changed, as well...

Things have changed -- let's talk about what's in front of us TODAY instead of what happened i decades ago.

Randii

[scraprock]

I am not good with the whole quoting thing, so I will do my best!:)

See, here's what I disagree with. I'll walk right up to folks and start talking with 'em. Most are respective to information. Get informed and get the word out... it works.

My experiences may be limited, yet I have seen very little success with speaking out. I do speak out, it gets me in trouble some times because of my age and appearance, but that is a different story. I do love to inform those that are uninformed, but doing that falls to deaf ears more often than not. I say it does not work because of the attitude out society has allowed. Its rampant off out trails too!

I definitely don't agree with this. I spent most of my weekend working shoulder to shoulder with responsible four-wheelers. Cal4 clubs, unaffiliated independents, and *gasp* Pirates of the Rubicon -- all working together under the umbrella of FOTR.

With my most sincere gratitude, I thank you all for your efforts. It would be far worse without the work done by volunteers. I did not specify one specific club being a problem, more specifically the Pirates. I am aware of their good work, they are not Pirate4x4.com. I can name groups and organizations that I saw this weekend that could be called out on, but I am not going to flame people without photos and better info. As far as the FOTR, I love it! Yet, no matter how much they try to get non affiliated wheelers to show up to meetings, very few show up. Evidently people do NOT care.

Then step up next time -- post up pics, for some peer justice, or better yet, submit the evidence to law enforcement so we can get these idiots punished for resource destruction.


GREAT idea. I should have done so! I normally take hundreds of photos, but because the nature of this trip (time line), I took less than 20!:(



How can we advertise to the regular wheelers if we associate ourselves with Pirate4x4?
By that logic, if you see a guy tearing up the trail in a Toyota, you should get rid of your commuter Camry... they both say Toyota on 'em, right?

I dont know how you got that wild card out of what I said. Here is a more detailed idea. I could care less what you wheel. If I were a non-online wheeler and that was my first time to the con' (btw it was) and saw jeeps, toys, EBs, chevys, samis sporting Pirate4x4.com stickers;they would make me think that its a big thing. Then to see those rigs FUBARing the land, I would have a very VERY bitter thought associated with that name. Now later in the year, I am at my club meeting and we discuss supporting a petition started by Pirate4x4.com, I instantly would think about what I saw and make sure everyone knew it. Make more sense? Basically, a few bad apples ruins the barrel. I hope that made sense


Boy, that'll sure show 'em! I understand your frustration, but I question your conclusions....


I know it sounds drastic, but I honestly think there needs to a MAJOR reconstruction of the trail. Maybe a possible short term closure of a few years to let nature regrow and allow trained volunteers repair the damage. Then to open the trail with manned checkpoints at beginning and end. People write their name, number, address and get a simple tech check over. Small fee to cover expenses. I would be more than willing to donate for a purpose like this. I know we in the central sierras would see a drastic influx in idiots on our trails, but I like to think that we dont let idiots get very far. We have hundreds of volunteers that carry USFS radios to report damages, drunk driving, etc. We take license plate numbers, vehicle descriptions then call it in and they get taken care of once they hit the road. WE HAVE A SYSTEM. Rubicon has nothing that works at least.

So since I am not involved with FOTR, what are they doing about this stuff? Or is there even talk?


edit:
Things have changed -- let's talk about what's in front of us TODAY instead of what happened i decades ago.

Randii

agree wholeheartedly

[smokd]

Three separate events:
1.) you started wheeling
2.) Pirates of Rubicon club
3.) 'destruction' of the sluice box
Which of these things are linked together?

Why are we even talking about what may or may happen fifteen years ago?

Many things have changed. Trail management has changed. Government agencies have changed. Rules have changed. Responsible recreation has changed. A few of the players remain the same, but most of them have aged and changed, as well...

Things have changed -- let's talk about what's in front of us TODAY instead of what happened i decades ago.

Randii

You are right, things have changed. And I do agree, lets talk about what is infront of us instead of decades ago. But for those people who have just been introduced to the Rubicon and its problems, why not let them know when and where the problem started?

[randii]

Basically, a few bad apples ruins the barrel. I hope that made sense
I'll agree with that, as well.

I know it sounds drastic, but I honestly think there needs to a MAJOR reconstruction of the trail.
No to closure -- this is a public trail, and access is a huge issue. There's little to no proof that temporary closures stay temporary... more the opposite.

I'd rather work to repair the trail while it stays open, SO THAT IT STAYS OPEN.

That's what FOTR has been working to do, in many work projects. We also are organizing a Rubicon Trail Patrol to self-police within our enthusiast ranks. We're working hard to help the agencies implement good oversight, instead of over-reacting and rolling in overly exclusive restrictions that can't or won't be rolled back. Your ideas are much in synch with FOTR -- you should get in synch in person at a work weekend or meeting... I think you'll find that caring about the trail is something that connects well.

Randii

[steveh]

Chartdog, do the right thing and send the names of those who lit off the fireworks to Del. They could have hurt a lot of people if a fire had started.

Randii can say it nice, I'll say it like it is, the people in your group that shot the stuff of are beyond stupid.

[patfo]

Scraprock, sounds like most of your wheeling is done up near Shaver Lake. If so anybody with experience in both area could have informed you they are worlds apart. I have made four trips into your neck of the woods, totaling about 20 days and have seen about 5 people on the trails - no lie. I was there the week before Labor Day last year, ran Dusy and Swamp and saw no one on either trail, no one. I was amazed. 5 days on the trails and saw not a single person. Totally unimaginable on the Con

The Con is a magnet for anybody who participates in any type of off road activity. And it's proximity to Major metro areas means it gets much more exposure than any other trail, period.

I'm not sying that to condon anybody's actions, but with all the extra traffic comes good and unfortunately the bad. As Randii has already stated it is important for those of us that care to do our part, whatever that may be, to work to protect our trails.

I was out there this weekend and did not witness any trail abuse. OF course I was not anywhere near Little Suice box, where most of the abuse happens.

I've been running the trail for a long time (first time was mid 80's). I remember road signs and pay phones nailed up to trees. They didn't add much to the wilderness experience. But times change, as does the Con. Most recently The Gatekeeper was destroyed (for lack of a better word). There are a lot of good people out there working their butts off to keep, not just the Con, but all trails, open. Just as you said about your area. Imagine if tens of thousands of people visited Dusy every year, maintenence and control would be an entirely different situation than it is now. But thats the Rubicon today.

I'm sorry to hear you didn't have the best experience but I do hope you'll not give up hope and come back again. I truely believe that the uninformed and ignorant are the minority in our chosen hobby and that if those of us who care do not give up, we will win. My dream is that the phrase "Trail clean up" becomes extinct as everyone finally learns to leave the trail in better condition than they found it.

I would like to hear more specifics on the types of abuse you witnessed. And where these activities took place.

[scraprock]

Scraprock, sounds like most of your wheeling is done up near Shaver Lake. If so anybody with experience in both area could have informed you they are worlds apart. I have made four trips into your neck of the woods, totaling about 20 days and have seen about 5 people on the trails - no lie. I was there the week before Labor Day last year, ran Dusy and Swamp and saw no one on either trail, no one. I was amazed. 5 days on the trails and saw not a single person. Totally unimaginable on the Con

I guess we are fortunate then, hopefully it stays that way!

Imagine if tens of thousands of people visited Dusy every year, maintenance and control would be an entirely different situation than it is now. But that's the Rubicon today.

Never put those thoughts together. It would be tough.. luckily I dont see it happening. I see your point though!



I'm sorry to hear you didn't have the best experience but I do hope you'll not give up hope and come back again. I truly believe that the uninformed and ignorant are the minority in our chosen hobby and that if those of us who care do not give up, we will win. My dream is that the phrase "Trail clean up" becomes extinct as everyone finally learns to leave the trail in better condition than they found it.

I would like to hear more specifics on the types of abuse you witnessed. And where these activities took place.


I hope that the ignorant are the minority, but I just cant believe that. If they are the minority, then how is the majority acting ignorant.

I started the trail at midnight Friday night, I ran with a couple rigs that frequent the trail. My passenger has been running the con' for years on end, and we led the group through the morning. I dont know the names of any of the areas, since it was pitch black, I cant describe the areas either :( sorry!

But I was amazed with the amount of people hitting the trail at the time we did. We hit it that late because we worked all day, and didn't want the traffic that its famous for. I never expected to see so many drunk drivers at 2:30 in the morning. Flopped and broken that late and piss drunk.

We "camped" at buck, and that was an idiot-fest upon itself! Again, without names, people maliciously driving over shrubbery and through water. Drunks running around naked (i dont have a problem with nudity unless there are FAMILIES surrounding you!). By 1:30 Saturday afternoon, I had enough of the amount of people and I hit the trail alone. On the way to Cadillac, more retardedness! People driving up the sides of the mountain that was clearly going nowhere. Slamming into trees (i know it happens, but its avoidable), and the wow factor of the width of the trail. It was like there is 1 trail, then 2 bypasses the whole way. I couldn't believe the trail is that wide! I ASSume that it was vegetation prior and according to my passenger, just a few years ago most of these areas were.

Basically, I understand that there are ton of people on the trail. When it comes down to it, better there than in my back yard. I dont want to sound selfish, but it is. I had heard stories of the damage to the con and what not, but I never dreamed it was this bad.

All I want to know is this. How can WE (online wheelers) start fixing this issue? We have the easiest way to connect and get ideas started. God Bless the FOTR, but man... its just getting worse isn't it?

[ridin44s]

just got back a few hours ago. i did not see any major abuse to the trail from loon lake to soupbowl. just past the original gatekeeper there has been a lot more erosion. there is a noticeable amount of rocks sticking up from last year. saw a few open diff rigs ruttin there way through not causing much damage. really, i feel the problem is a respect issue. it is hard to get people to listen to you when you tell them they shouldn't be doing something. i mean who is really going to listen to a 19 year old kid say to them you should not be wheeling in that area. especially if they are drunk. i feel the only true future to the trail is more trail patrol.

[BrettM]

I have been present for 3 roll-overs on the Rubicon, one resulted in a life-flight, one was rushed by 4x4 to the hospital, and the last completely flattened a 10" diameter tree. (none were people I knew or part of my group)

2 of the 3 were clear cases of drunk driving, the third was someone being simply stupid.

As someone who really enjoys a good brew, I think alcohol is quite possibly the largest problem on the trail.

Nobody wants to confront a drunk, especially a group of them. There's no telling what can happen, and many (most?) people on the Con have a firearm in the vehicle. I've told people they need to pull over and setup camp, but when they ignore me or tell me to fuck off, I'm not about to pull them out of their rig.

I offer no solution, just an observation :(

[chartdog]

Chartdog, do the right thing and send the names of those who lit off the fireworks to Del. They could have hurt a lot of people if a fire had started.

Randii can say it nice, I'll say it like it is, the people in your group that shot the stuff of are beyond stupid.


Steve,

Would have loved to but I was not close enough to know who it was or even exactly where it was.

Turning violators into LE and peer pressure are both good ideas and we should all do it when ever it seems safe and appropriate.

I think the theme of this thread is that the problem is bigger than some of us thought, the problem people are more numerous and more stubborn than we might hope and that the future could be bleak.

I just got out of 30 years in law enforcement so my view about the nature of people may be a bit negative. I am begining to believe that moderate to extreme changes in rules and management will be needed to save the trail.

And we are still left with a problem we all seem to agree with, very few trail users seem the least bit informed......

[Tinman]

What do I think?

I think we must keep plugging away to fix things, educate people, and work with the FS and the County to keep the Rubicon open until we succeed or we lose completely. Yes, we all know they are many people who abuse the trail but there are many more who work hard to preserve it. I spoke to several people this last weekend who were just there to wheel and weren't part of the workday or any organized event and was pleasently surprised at their knowledge and understanding of Route Designation and FOTR. We must be doing something right because some people are being reached. My club has adopted the Fordyce trail but I still come to work on the Rubicon because I believe it's equally important. Maybe more so considering it's special nature as perhaps the world's best known and most used trail. More people, more use, more work needed. Simple as that. I'll be up on Fordyce in a couple of weeks working there.

Never, never, never give up.

[chartdog]

What do I think?

I think we must keep plugging away to fix things, educate people, and work with the FS and the County to keep the Rubicon open until we succeed or we lose completely. Yes, we all know they are many people who abuse the trail but there are many more who work hard to preserve it. I spoke to several people this last weekend who were just there to wheel and weren't part of the workday or any organized event and was pleasently surprised at their knowledge and understanding of Route Designation and FOTR. We must be doing something right because some people are being reached. My club has adopted the Fordyce trail but I still come to work on the Rubicon because I believe it's equally important. Maybe more so considering it's special nature as perhaps the world's best known and most used trail. More people, more use, more work needed. Simple as that. I'll be up on Fordyce in a couple of weeks working there.

Never, never, never give up.

In spite of my sometimes negative view, I agree completely. If we give up, "THEY" win............

[steveh]

Steve,

Would have loved to but I was not close enough to know who it was or even exactly where it was.

Turning violators into LE and peer pressure are both good ideas and we should all do it when ever it seems safe and appropriate.

I think the theme of this thread is that the problem is bigger than some of us thought, the problem people are more numerous and more stubborn than we might hope and that the future could be bleak.

I just got out of 30 years in law enforcement so my view about the nature of people may be a bit negative. I am begining to believe that moderate to extreme changes in rules and management will be needed to save the trail.

And we are still left with a problem we all seem to agree with, very few trail users seem the least bit informed......

I totally agree with you. I mis-interpreted "people from our own group" to mean the group you were camping with. My apologies.

It's unfortunate that some peoples version of a good time is from such a selfish viewpoint, IE, who cares if what I do to have fun disturbs those around me.

Also, Trail Patrol does work, and works for 98% of the people approached. It's an educate and mentor those who don't know, not we are here to get you cited or sent to jail. Not everyone knows what is going on on the Con, and when they hear about it, they are thankful someone took the time to talk to them in a friendly positive manner.

If people are High, we leave them for the LEO's, they have the skills to deal with the situation.

[cruzila]

Never, never give up. Never think you are wasting money by donating to a cause you love and believe in. Join everything you can think of. Blue Ribbon, Cal4wheel etc. etc.

The Rubicon has had bypasses for years. Many of them. The trail is wider, but in many places it is the same as it was decades ago. A first trip and comparing it to someplace else would not be an accurate comparison. Now if you have run both many times, you would be able to see the differences better.

The Rubicon Trail Foundation is just getting off the ground. There IS hope. Education, Enforcement and Engineering are the tools we have. It all takes money time and perserverence. Green groups are going into your childrens classrooms and educating them in preservation. Would it not be a good idea to support groups that may want to do the same on a conservation, USE ideal?? Heck there is even a Green party. That makes us look like the underdog for sure.

This trail has seen so much use over the last six years, it will take a long time to change social conciousness and get the trail more managable. The FOTR is the single most effective goup for an off road trial. We have rebuilt many sections, moved mountains and buildings, held off closures, and are still continually working with agencies to get this thing under control. That to me is worth it, every bit. Never give up.

That is what I think, Scott

[patfo]

acting[/U] ignorant.

Unfortunately the ill mannered and uninformed seem to travel in packs. As do the respectful, concientious bunch. Think about it, what type of guys do you usually wheel with? Would you wheel with someone who has no respect for others or the wilderness? Sure, but only if you could change his attitude. Unfortunately mob mentality also takes over when there is little fear of reprisal (everybody else is doing it so why not me too). It takes courage and conviction not to participate and even more to step up and try to stop it. I'll even admit to being a lot more stupid in my younger days and doing things that I shouldn't have, but I can't come close to what some people do today though.

I started the trail at midnight Friday night, I ran with a couple rigs that frequent the trail. My passenger has been running the con' for years on end, and we led the group through the morning. I dont know the names of any of the areas, since it was pitch black, I cant describe the areas either :( sorry!

But I was amazed with the amount of people hitting the trail at the time we did. We hit it that late because we worked all day, and didn't want the traffic that its famous for. I never expected to see so many drunk drivers at 2:30 in the morning. Flopped and broken that late and piss drunk.

We "camped" at buck, and that was an idiot-fest upon itself! Again, without names, people maliciously driving over shrubbery and through water. Drunks running around naked (i dont have a problem with nudity unless there are FAMILIES surrounding you!). By 1:30 Saturday afternoon, I had enough of the amount of people and I hit the trail alone. On the way to Cadillac, more retardedness! People driving up the sides of the mountain that was clearly going nowhere. Slamming into trees (i know it happens, but its avoidable), and the wow factor of the width of the trail. It was like there is 1 trail, then 2 bypasses the whole way. I couldn't believe the trail is that wide! I ASSume that it was vegetation prior and according to my passenger, just a few years ago most of these areas were.

That sucks, makes me glad I never made it to Buck. Ever since the closure of Spider this is where a lot of the "Party" has moved. I've never seen the issue addressed specifically but somebody had to anticipate what is perceived as the troublemakers just moving to a different spot on the trail after shutting off access for them at Spider. I think Ellis also sees a greater impact of use / abuse now also

Basically, I understand that there are ton of people on the trail. When it comes down to it, better there than in my back yard. I dont want to sound selfish, but it is. I had heard stories of the damage to the con and what not, but I never dreamed it was this bad.

Maybe I've been running it to long and just accept it as normal (not the abuse but the trail) but it doesn't appear bad to me. I can understand where your coming from again in comparson to Shaver Lake Area. When I ran Dusy I was amazed at how pristine everything was. And talk about narrow. All I kept thinking as I went along the trail was how if it had the traffic that Rubicon saw there would be people driving all over the place as there are some nice looking rock piles (off the trail of course). You do get more line choices on Dusy off Kiaser Pass though as it is more open and people have created different lines so it does happen in your "backyard" too. Can you imagine what Ershim Lake would look like if every weekend for 10-15 weeks straight 20-200 rigs and 50- 400 people visited/ camped at it?

It is a bit eye opening to hear your opinions though, coming from a different perspective.

All I want to know is this. How can WE (online wheelers) start fixing this issue? We have the easiest way to connect and get ideas started. God Bless the FOTR, but man... its just getting worse isn't it?

No it's not just getting worse. We are constantly working to fix this issue. But there is no overnight solution. Think of it as a community that has a problem with bored teenagers (not saying all the trouble makers on the Con are teenagers as thats clearly not the case) that get into trouble just because they have nothing better to do. Or possibly a city with gang problems. These issues are serious and continue to grow, and solutions are not as simple as one would think. But by the community (four wheelers and all off roaders) banding together, taking a stand and fighting for whats right, we can make a difference.

I think another question you might want to ask yourself is "How do I keep this from happening to my trails?" Maybe due to population demographics you'll never have a problem, but don't fool yourself into thinking "it can't happen here". The Fresno 4 wheelers and others do a great job maintaining the trails up there, but vigilance is needed. The best way to solve the problems are to work to prevent them in the first place. The Con is not only under intense scrutiny from all types of agencies as to all the impact it receives but it is also a test case, whether it wants to be or not, as to what can or cannot be done to solve problems. Other areas can then use the information to prevent the problems on the Con from happening to their trails. In a sense, we are forging a new path here. So don't give up hope and continue to do your part

reformatted, not a letter otherwise changed -- Randii

[cruzila]

Another thing about Dusy and some other trails is they already have gates. I would hope that people generally realize it is easy to just close and lock those gates if the issues become too great. Rubicon does not have that, maybe that is part of it too.

The sad part is people are not realizing the potential is still there, even for the Rubicon. Buck Islands day is coming and the sooner we clamp down on the activities there, and our own people, the better. It could be worse than Spider. Mark my words.

Scott

[randii]

But for those people who have just been introduced to the Rubicon and its problems, why not let them know when and where the problem started?
The problem is how many years have passed that it is tough to say who did what with any conviction. I am a relentless scholar of the trail and its history, and think I may be approaching awareness of perhaps a third of what there is to know, having been looking hard for the last decade. There are folks who have lived the trail since the 50's, and they know more... but I'd wager that not one person knows 100% of all that happened on the trail, though some may claim it. The reality is that many things happen on the trail in private, and aren't attributed properly. Consider also that relentless legends may not be well founded in facts.

And it's proximity to Major metro areas means it gets much more exposure than any other trail, period.
This simply can't be emphasized enough -- the user base has grown incredibly, and continues to grow. Like it or not.

How can WE (online wheelers) start fixing this issue? We have the easiest way to connect and get ideas started. God Bless the FOTR, but man... its just getting worse isn't it?
I like this, your new question -- there is much that we can do, both on and off the trail. Public comment is critical, especially in the parallel, but scarcely-related county and federal planning processes (Rubicon Trail Master Plan and Route Designation, respectively). You can also volunteer directly on the trail.
...as to abuse getting worse, I don't think so. 2004 was a peak year, and 2005 was much better. My hope is that 2006 continues to improve, though it is too early to say.

I just got out of 30 years in law enforcement so my view about the nature of people may be a bit negative. I am begining to believe that moderate to extreme changes in rules and management will be needed to save the trail.
With the county Rubicon Trail Master Plan and federal Route Designation processes winding down, there *WILL* be changes, without a doubt. FOTR is working to moderate the changes, but some proposals are extreme... such as November to June closure, 200 vehicles per day capacity, and more.

Bret said it incredibly well... :cool2:
...we must keep plugging away to fix things, educate people, and work with the FS and the County to keep the Rubicon open until we succeed or we lose completely. Never, never, never give up.

Thanks, all, for good discussion about something we all care immensely about: our continued access to the Rubicon Trail.

Randii

[UGET IT]

(The same people who are doing these disgusting acts of abuse are sporting Pirate4x4.com stickers.) You said it scraprock. 15 years ago when I started wheeling the Rubicon, this whole Pirates of the Rubicon "club" and the destruction of the sluice box started then. This has just gotten worse through the years. I have lots of pictures from back in the day. But I dont see as many of the same faces in these "pirate rigs" as I used too. I will be honest, I have had a few "run ins" with the pirates back then but I can't let a few spoil it for the entire club. I think the damage is done. What happened then is still haunting all of us now. It does not matter if you have a sticker or not, the pirates still get the blame. From what I hear the Pirates of the Rubicon are trying to clean up what happened in the past, but is it too late?


Ya know it sure sucks to come back from this weekend and read this crap.......We all worked our tails off and got one of the biggest projects off the ground all through FOTR......

If you "truly" have information regarding the Pirates of the Rubicon and how we ruined Sluice, have at it and post em......................hell for that matter turn em in to the Law for all I care. If you really gave to cents about the trail you would have been sweating right along side "us" FOTR this weekend. Better yet you would be sporting a Trail Patrol sticker and be on the trail trying to educate folks instead of dragging out alligations from the past.



FOTR had another major success this weekend thanks to friends and people that truly care about the Rubicon trail. If your point was to piss me off well you havent.....................I am tired, sunburnt, but was excited to see the reaction on this website about our hardwork this weekend.

I AM the Preisdent of the Pirates of the Rubicon and worked all weekend at Loon Lake. Jeff H8 Monday worked all weekend too and is a POR Member.

Stop your whining and get on board with the solution.

If you dont like this website go find another one that has done so much good for the Rubicon Trail.

If you want to contact me directly please email me : porpres@pirate4x4.com

[UGET IT]

:)

[afecko]

I have a theory that there are two types of off road users these days. There are those of us that have always loved and visited the forests and deserts and happen to also use our vehicles to get there. We tend to understand and respect the outdoors more and take better care of it. Then there are those who were never really involved in outdoor activities and happened to get involved in the relatively new sport of extreme off roading. This group is more likely to not know, not care and is much more likely to trash the places we love. At least that is what I think I see happening.



This is precisely how I see it. I come from a fly-fishing/hunting background, we use our vehicles to get to remote locations in the hopes of avoiding other humans. The latter group in your description uses their vehicles to REACH other humans of their own ilk, use illicit drugs, consume massive quantities of alcohol and take out their frustrations on the landscape.

I'd like to quantify this faction. Is it 10% or 40%? And, can we really do anything to educate these people? Are they, due to lack of education and brain cells, beyond hope? Would more signage or another kiosk really help? Can they even read? These are serious questions, I'm not overstating.

Quite frankly, I was hoping that high gas prices would knock down Rubicon activity this summer, and keep the rabble at home. Guess that didn't happen, so I'll avoid the 'Con again this year except for the fall clean-up (which for several years has actually done more damage than good, see the party/raffle at Little Sluice for reference.)

[UGET IT]

This is precisely how I see it. I come from a fly-fishing/hunting background, we use our vehicles to get to remote locations in the hopes of avoiding other humans. The latter group in your description uses their vehicles to REACH other humans of their own ilk, use illicit drugs, consume massive quantities of alcohol and take out their frustrations on the landscape.

I'd like to quantify this faction. Is it 10% or 40%? And, can we really do anything to educate these people? Are they, due to lack of education and brain cells, beyond hope? Would more signage or another kiosk really help? Can they even read? These are serious questions, I'm not overstating.

Quite frankly, I was hoping that high gas prices would knock down Rubicon activity this summer, and keep the rabble at home. Guess that didn't happen, so I'll avoid the 'Con again this year except for the fall clean-up (which for several years has actually done more damage than good, see the party/raffle at Little Sluice for reference.)

This hasnt happened......(Pirate Cleanup) for 2 years.......................

What cleanup last year are you reffering too?

[afecko]

I didn't say last year, did I? I'm glad it hasn't happened for the last several years, 01 and 02 were very bad, never made it to LS in 03.

[UGET IT]

I didn't say last year, did I? I'm glad it hasn't happened for the last several years, 01 and 02 were very bad, never made it to LS in 03.

Yeah it was tough hauling out 85-100 bags of trash between 7-8 club vehicles.

[afecko]

just got back a few hours ago. i did not see any major abuse to the trail from loon lake to soupbowl.


Here's a quote from a POR member describing what he witnessed this weekend:

That sucks. My whole weekend was spent at winter camp by the box. I hate to say it but there are ALLOT of assholes up their. Trying to start fights, quads running through the bushes. Rigs and people all camped on the back side of spider by merlins cabbin. GK was a mistake. How do you educate people like this.

[afecko]

Yeah it was tough hauling out 85-100 bags of trash between 7-8 club vehicles.


Do you think that I "have it out" for POR members? Get off your cross for a moment and realize I could care less about club affiliation or why or how this problem started. I want to get it fixed.

BTW, I never made it to LS in 03 because my rig was FULL of trail refuse cleaned up from Tahoe to the Springs.

[cruzila]

FOTR had another major success this weekend thanks to friends and people that truly care about the Rubicon trail. If your point was to piss me off well you havent.....................I am tired, sunburnt, but was excited to see the reaction on this website about our hardwork this weekend.

I AM the Preisdent of the Pirates of the Rubicon and worked all weekend at Loon Lake. Jeff H8 Monday worked all weekend too and is a POR Member.

Stop your whining and get on board with the solution.

If you dont like this website go find another one that has done so much good for the Rubicon Trail.

If you want to contact me directly please email me : porpres@pirate4x4.com

GET IT:flipoff2:

[The Jerk]

Here's a quote from a POR member describing what he witnessed this weekend:

riddn44's was not camped with us. Rollie witnesed exactly the same as i did this past weekend as we camped together.

It apeard to be an off weekend. but it was not. Rubithon/cherokee event/ and a sami event. I did not see a single LEO from thursday till sunday. May have helped may have not.

My thoughts are this. If you dont think saying anything to someone will do anygood or they wont listen to you for what ever reason then write down their plate or green sticker number. they see you doing this and they might be a little more apt to comply or hear you out.

[UGET IT]

Do you think that I "have it out" for POR members? Get off your cross for a moment and realize I could care less about club affiliation or why or how this problem started. I want to get it fixed.

BTW, I never made it to LS in 03 because my rig was FULL of trail refuse cleaned up from Tahoe to the Springs.

Good glad you could help and your point is???? I pretty much agree with Rollie and he is a new member of the club. Get off my cross??? or do you mean swords....:laughing:

Based on the conversation we are having right here looks like I will see you at the next FOTR sceduled Rubicon Project:)

Our (Pirates of the Rubicon) last cleanup and raffle giveway ended up at Buck Island not at Spider.

Kevin

[afecko]

Based on the conversation we are having right here looks like I will see you at the next FOTR sceduled Rubicon Project:)

Kevin

You may.

The point of THIS THREAD however, is that if there were far fewer asshats on the trail, we wouldn't need FOTR work days. :)

[UGET IT]

You may.

The point of THIS THREAD however, is that if there were far fewer asshats on the trail, we wouldn't need FOTR work days. :)


Good.:)

If you want to help with Trail Patrol that can help with the problem you mentioned above.

We are making good strides on the Rubicon and setting standards for other Off areas in threat of being closed.

Making positive contributions have a real effect.................trust me I know.

KC

[ridin44s]

what about more signs along the trail that reiterate staying within 50 ft from the trail/tread lightly/ and that stupid actions will cause the trail to be closed. just an idea. also how does someone volunteer for trail patrol?

[The Jerk]

the signs will get stolen. the wooden ones at the y to elis and wentworth are already gone. lasted 1 week as i was there last weekend and saw them.

[stainless steal dave]

kevin- did you guys complete the deck this weekend or is there more work to do? the pic you have posted shows the frame for it finished.

[UGET IT]

kevin- did you guys complete the deck this weekend or is there more work to do? the pic you have posted shows the frame for it finished.

We completed it except for the railing. I think H8Monday and I were going to go up next weekend??? or after the 4th.

I will have a plan tomorrow.......want in on the finish project:)

[Booger Weldz]

We completed it except for the railing. I think H8Monday and I were going to go up next weekend??? or after the 4th.

I will have a plan tomorrow.......want in on the finish project:)

hell probably show up with his on board tig set up, a bender and a bunch of 17-4 stainless steel tubing:grinpimp: miss you dave!:beer:

[UGET IT]

hell probably show up with his on board tig set up, a bender and a bunch of 17-4 stainless steel tubing:grinpimp: miss you dave!:beer:


Hmm Stainless Steel railings would be cool.........:smokin:

[randii]

the signs will get stolen. the wooden ones at the y to elis and wentworth are already gone. lasted 1 week as i was there last weekend and saw them.
:jack: They're BACK! :jack:

[ROCKLIMO]

Hmm Stainless Steel railings would be cool.........:smokin:



:smokin: How about Orn. Iorn????:smokin:

[scraprock]

OK, so to EMPHASIZE what Andy already said, just to many assclowns out there. Nothin we can do about it. Again, I am just really sad and disgusted with people. I really just cant get over that!

I am very glad to have heard more direct accounts of what is going on. I just wish there was an actual plan. It seems to me that its all being shot from the hip. Is there a realistic timeline? Saying next year we hope to accomplish such and such.

I hope I havnt come across as negative, but I was hoping to see what was out there.

Oh.... I think I will stand by Andy's sig... Stay of the Con'.

[ridin44s]

it's funny because i say two tj's rollin out on rockwells that had to back up just to make relatively sharp turns. then further in it was apparent that them and many other full widths did not do that because there was much more dead vegetation than last year near sharp turn areas. i did hear of a few people i go to school with that had buddies who got tickets this last weekend for being off the trail. it seems that when the rangers are around they are keeping tabs on everyone.

[atvobsession]

I read the first post. I'm trying to figure out....How could someone who has admittedly never been on the trail before, say that it's bad shape. By what standard is it being judged?

Having driven on the trail since 1979, I would like to point out the POSITIVES...

- FOTR deeply involved in the maintenance of the trail
- Trail Patrol is working hard to build a presence on the trail for information
- Hundreds of individuals working to improve the trail
- Information KIOSKS
- More Law Enforcement presence on the trail
- MANY MANY road signs removed from trees
- Telephones and all kinds of goofy items removed from the Little and Big Sluice
- Trail improvements in various places across the trail
- Hundreds of pounds of human waste removed by volunteers

Yes...more people use the trail than in 1979....but the trail is overall more beautiful with the signs and such removed. The amount of attention that the trail is receiving is many times more than what it received in 1979.

I'd say that things are moving in a positive direction....not a negative direction.

[mtnbronco]

I agree atv.... Also the old abandon vehicles have been removed too.. Now we need to campfire mess. People think its ok to burn metal and leave it behind. I'm tired of hauling some of this stuff out of the forest.

[SeanP]

I'll add to andy's .02: I have always held reverence for the land under my tires. I have also had a lot of fun, and had a few beers while wheeling. Unfortunately, there are many folks who can do anything in moderation and become menaces to those around them. If we CAN JUST GET SOME LEO PRESENCE AND SOME DUI'S WRITTEN we will send a message that this is NOT the place for jackassery. The con is holy land in my book. Do not sh*t in my shrine

ever the den mother, I tossed in an ASSterisk -- Randii

[stainless steal dave]

We completed it except for the railing. I think H8Monday and I were going to go up next weekend??? or after the 4th.

I will have a plan tomorrow.......want in on the finish project:)
if you guys need some help to finish it up i'd be able to contribute to the fotr project.what tools would you like me to throw in the back of my toyota?

[randii]

Language fellas, c'mon. I'm leaving 'ass' because it is in too many places to clean and there is good stuff in this thread.

Remember, this is a PG-13 room.

Randii

[SeanP]

Language fellas, c'mon. I'm leaving 'ass' because it is in too many places to clean and there is good stuff in this thread.

Remember, this is a PG-13 room.

Randii

sorry, you can take the trash out of the white or the white out of the trash...oh never mind. :)

[atvobsession]

The con is holy land in my book.


Amen Sean. That's the message that we must continually broadcast.

[Jeepndel]

Every where I travel in this country as a BlueRibbon 4x4 Ambassador and FOTR Trail Boss (I wear both hats), I can count on getting this question over and over -- what can I do?

And I usually start my answer the same way I'll answer some of the concerns here: what clubs and groups do you belong to now (Sraprock, did you post up your clubs?). This IS the first thing all of us should do -- JOIN. Join everything you can afford to join. Start with the BlueRibbon Coalition, the only national multiple use organization out there (4x4's, hunting, fishing, snowmobiles, atv's, dirt bikes, mountain bikes, etc. are all represented).
Join United FWDA; Join Cal4; Join a local club. But JOIN>

The reason this is soooooo important is that it is merely membership (dues) that keeps what little land use and access effort we have going....it's not big business. It's not Chrysler, Jeep, Toyota, or anyone else helping us fight these battles on a large scale. In fact most manufacturers don't do much at all. Jeep is one of the worst! Toyota is helping on some fronts as is Hummer.
But it's YOU, the average person, that is providing the funds (dues) to fight the battles. Period.

So if you can't list three or four groups/clubs that you belong to, then you are not doing your full part in my mind. Heck, FOTR is free. BlueRibbon is only $20 a year with no meetings involved. Cal4 and United are not that expensive compared to a trip to the 'Con. So join up...that's step one and the most important step.

This marks my 25th year of fighting battles for land use, access and public lands.....the last 5 years full time, every day. I have yet to give up and I keep joining. And then we pass along our passion, interest and respect to others (and our kids), one person at a time; one day at a time; one trail at a time.
Del:grinpimp:

[BrettM]

(Sraprock, did you post up your clubs

I'll post up for Matt. He's been a member of NAXJA for several years, which includes a membership to UFWDA. He's also the NAXJA Sierra Chapter Secretary. I don't know of any NAXJA donations to the Rubicon, but everytime a group goes through we view it as a cleanup. I do know NAXJA has donated several thousand dollars to Friends of Panamint Valley and other causes around the country.

[scraprock]

As Brett said, I am acting secretary for the NAXJA (north american XJ association) and have been a member for years. This includes a UFWD membership. I am also CAL4wd and a local 4x4Him club member.

I am in as many as I can afford right now. I do generally do one time donations for special charities when the opportunity arrives. I feel the same as you about being members in any good active organization.

I really do wish I could be involved more directly, but I have the same excuse most everyone else has... too far away.

Is there a plan?

[SeanP]

as Groucho Marx once said, I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member! :laughing:

But good advice, it's all about having a network of like minded individuals and making the minority few a$$hats even more of a minority.

SeanP

[H8monday]

(The same people who are doing these disgusting acts of abuse are sporting Pirate4x4.com stickers.) You said it scraprock. 15 years ago when I started wheeling the Rubicon, this whole Pirates of the Rubicon "club" and the destruction of the sluice box started then. This has just gotten worse through the years. I have lots of pictures from back in the day. But I dont see as many of the same faces in these "pirate rigs" as I used too. I will be honest, I have had a few "run ins" with the pirates back then but I can't let a few spoil it for the entire club. I think the damage is done. What happened then is still haunting all of us now. It does not matter if you have a sticker or not, the pirates still get the blame. From what I hear the Pirates of the Rubicon are trying to clean up what happened in the past, but is it too late?


Please do tell of your herowing experiences and run ins with Pirates of the past. With more specifics I can look through our records of pileging and plunder, and possibly we could make proper restitution for the alleged attrocities. On the other hand, as is most often the case, we may be able to
file your allegations into the "someone with a Pirate flag, was rude to me, after I was rude to him, so I told my girlfriend they were pirates, and we better leave now" file. However if it was one of those uncountable actuall exploits wherein we ambushed you with a half dozen savages with knives clinched in their teeth, fired a musketball through your engine block, then kidnapped your family and pets and held them hostage untill you returned with ransom, it will certainly be in our logues, and we will humbely take the blame.
Unsubstantiated and exagerated BS involving any club, past or present is just whining.
Attacking our club in particular is just attacking a club that does as much as it can, whenever it can to try and make a possitive impact on the Rubicon Trail.
Grow up, and get over whatever some unspecified individuals may have done to hurt your feelings in the past. Ambiguose allegations slandering our club, and unfounded portrayal that we are the cause of overcrowded trails and uneducated operators, is in no way, a positive contribution to the problem.
Fortunately attitudes like yours are the exception, and most people are more than willing to look at solving the real problems plaguing our trails than conjouring up tales of bucaneers and sea monsters as the culprit.

[Rollie]

lol Darrrrrrrrrrrr :smokin:

[prototype]

First, let me make this clear that I love to wheel, camp, hike outdoors. I live for the wilderness, and its the only thing I do.

On to the real issue of the Rubicon. This weekend (6/24/06), I ran the trail for the first time. I have never run it due to my taste in wheeling, I like to go wheeling and camping without seeing a ton of people. Yet, I knew I needed to run this trail at least once in my life. Not only to say I ran that legendary trail, but to see if all the fuss over the status of the trail was real and what my opinion will be.

Pirate4x4 is the largest online 4x4 board, the people who may read this may only be 10% of the people using our trails. After running the Con', I am SEVERLY disturbed. So disturbed that I NEARLY agree with the tree huggers. I am so disgusted with the abuse of the trail and the misconduct on the trail. It is really stomach wrenching.

Here is the "what do you think of" part. How in the world can we speak out to the people who abuse out trails? We cannot because we are hypocrites. The same people who are doing these disgusting acts of abuse are sporting Pirate4x4.com stickers.

How can we advertise to the regular wheelers if we associate ourselves with Pirate4x4? We can raise all the money in the world and convince people that these trails are worth keeping if "we" are the problem?

I would think those who sport the stickers and abuse the trail wont be reading this, so that leaves those who care. What can we do? I myself have vowed to not sign any petitions of send money in support of the con' any longer. We are our own worst enemies.

Am I wrong? I hope so.

I agree with you. I was on the trail for the first time Aug 2003. I wish i got pictures of what happened to us. We had several rude people playing around on gate keeper. With there high and mighty toyotas and jeeps on fourty something tires. IIRC there was about 6 of them and most had pirate4x4 tags on them. they were climbing up and down the muggy hill and all over the big rocks. The sad thing there was about 25 people waiting and wanted to watch them play in there big trucks. all these guys thought they were cool and they enjoyed every minuite of it. Finally we get going. WE spaent a hard day getting to rubicon springs. We finally make it and set up camp at dark. Once we all get to sleep here comes this roaring crowd with there boom boom radios blasting and revving engines. WTF is this. I know its the con and play time but what about respect for others. We had to listen to this allnight. They finally stopped about 6am. they crashed out down from us and we woke to see it was the same bunch from the gate keeper. The cool thing we herd the bear that is always around rubicon springs ate all there food whiloe they were sleeping. Wa hoo. So the kind harteed people we are chipped in some food, soda, and water for these guys. We'll night came around again and there up alnight and climbing on the trail with the bigs rocks. it the trail that comes around the back side of group camping area. There are some big rocks there. We were pissed. :mad3:

These are the people that just don't care for anyone or what there doing. They will be the ones that ruin it for everyone. Don't get me wrong we have met the nicest people on the trail. I just try to do 1 trip a year. Less were on it, less wear we do.

[chartdog]

My thoughts on the subject overall are earlier in this post.

Just wanted to remind everyone that ANYONE can get a pirates sticker, it does not mean much.

The POR club is a hand full of guys that may have a reputation for being wild but they also work hard for the trail.

All the other morons who get on this board and get a sticker to be cool are something else.

[Rollie]

My thoughts on the subject overall are earlier in this post.

Just wanted to remind everyone that ANYONE can get a pirates sticker, it does not mean much.

The POR club is a hand full of guys that may have a reputation for being wild but they also work hard for the trail.

All the other morons who get on this board and get a sticker to be cool are something else.
Thank you. There is a big differance Between Pirate 4X4 And Pirates of the Rubicon

[Jeepndel]

Ok, folks, let's close this discussion, what say yee? We're not covering any new ground and the most important point has been made....we should strive to not point empty fingers and blame *someone* without knowing WHO IT IS we're really pointing at.

The same goes for the Trail Patrol. I do not act, not do I expect our Trail Patrol to act on nameless, pointless photos of someone seemlingly doing bad. It's not fair and it's not right. Our job is to get the facts and get em right. On the other hand, a good photo of someone doing bad, witnessed and documented, with faces ID'd and license plates showing, is a well established bust em situation for our LE buddies. :)

So be fair to your fellow four-wheelers and let's not get caught up in empty discrimination or pointless accusations. It's almost like nasty prejudice.....you know, where we don't like someone because of the color of their Toyota!!! :grinpimp:

Del