Just wondering if it really matters how long your panhard bar is for rockcrawling or if it is more important just to get it in the same plane as the tie rod? I'm just trying to figure out link placement on my rockwell and I can't figure out how to do a 3 link or 4 link with the room I have. I could run a short panhard that would be near horizontal but it would only be maybe 2 1/2 feet long. Any advice or pics? thanks

Originally posted by ECF
Just wondering if it really matters how long your panhard bar is for rockcrawling or if it is more important just to get it in the same plane as the tie rod? I'm just trying to figure out link placement on my rockwell and I can't figure out how to do a 3 link or 4 link with the room I have. I could run a short panhard that would be near horizontal but it would only be maybe 2 1/2 feet long. Any advice or pics? thanks

Same plane, same length.

If they don't match the movement of the axle as restrained by the Panhard will cause movement in the steering as the drag link and the Panhard do not follow the same path.

Different paths means something has to give which means the knuckle moves to compensate.

HTH

r@m

edit: "they" must match in length - drag link and Panhard.

make it as long as possible, or the same length as the drag link. If they are off by a few inches it prolly won't matter a lot. I am also gonna do this with mine, so i know where you are coming from. I am gonna build a bracket that will come off the driver's frame rail and stick out about 6" to get some extra length in the panhard. also, making the panhard longer will result in less side-to-side axle movement during articulation.

Elf, you are running your drag link in front of the axle right and the tie rod behind? I have the tie rod behind but I was hoping to be able to put the steering link behind the axle too, but I don't see how I can stretch it over to the knuckle with the third member driveline right in the way. Also, where are you gunna mount your panhard to get it the same length as the steering? Seems like you would have to bend them around the third member or they would hit the pinion flanges on both sides.

Originally posted by ECF
I can't figure out how to do a 3 link or 4 link with the room I have. I could run a short panhard that would be near horizontal but it would only be maybe 2 1/2 feet long. Any advice or pics? thanks

advice:-

1) DO'NT go for a panhard, especially not with a rockwell.
you can do 4 link or better yet a 3 link - more advanced
and more professional suspension.

2) goto a relevant thread (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&thread=47342) and see debate there.

3) if you'll need anything more like planning info or
additional pics, just give us a post:)

Yes, i have the drag link in front of the axle. Right now i am SOA, so it does not matter, but i am going to full hydro steer when i do the coil-over conversion. ( prolly next year) SO there will be no drag link to bind with. Personally i prefer a panhard to a 3 link or 4 link. This opinion is based on what i have driven, ridden in, or watched. I haven't built a link-type suspension yet, but 3 and 4 links don't seem to control side-to-side- movement of the axle/vehicle as well as a panhard does. Anyways, you probably can't run the drag link behind the axle as you are suggesting because of space requirements. I was going to build a mount off the front pinion bearing retainer and mount the panhard there. Hope this helps...

If your doing a mechanical steering setup I would definately go with a panhard bar if your using full hydro I'd go with triangulated 4link or 3link.

CJ

I started out with 4 link on my 44 front end and every time I would turn the frame would be pushing against the axle and it would move it over a couple of inches. So I am worried about that with doing a 3 or 4 link set up on the rockwell. This in mind I am also doing ram assist and I wonder if that would essentially take the pushing force away from the frame and put it on the the axle only cause the ram would be mounted to the axle and to the tie rod right? So could I then do a 4 link and not have to worry so much about lateral movement? I was looking at WMS 4 link design and what the guys at Avalanche Engr. have done and it seems like a doable deal for my set up. I would run 2 straight bars from the axel up to the bottom of the frame rail. At the axle the mounts would be probably 5 or so inches high. Then I would run a mount from the inside of the axle tube on the ends of the axles to a middle point up near the T-case. The planes of the link sets would intersect near the t-case, which I don't know if that is good or bad per say. Other option is a wishbone 3 link but I am not sure where I could mount the link end at the axle without it hitting on something upon total suspension compression. I know there was a guy with a huge green toyota that was running rockwells and 52's and he had a wishbone 3 link but I couldn't tell how he mounted it to the rockwell.

[i] I haven't built a link-type suspension yet, but 3 and 4 links don't seem to control side-to-side- movement of the axle/vehicle as well as a panhard does. [/B]

hey elf man,

how wrong can you get?!

the panhard system is at large a thing of the past.
modern suspensions definitely go towards 3 or 4 link,
and not without a reason.

a well built 3 link eliminates totally any lateral movement,
and do not suffer from the panhard system drawbacks.

if you've seen bad 3 links, it does'nt mean that it is not as
good as the panhard system. it only means it was'nt
built as it should have been!

Originally posted by the frog
how wrong can you get?!


Wha? :confused:




mechanical steering+ no panhard bar on front axle= MASSIVE bumpsteer.

mechanical steering+no panhard rod on front axle=MASSIVE bumpsteer

A panhard rod locates the axle. The only way a panhard rod affects steering is when it is done wrong. I've heard of people having bump steer with the triangulated design up front. I only assume it's because the axle is not forced to follow the arc of the PH rod. I think this is also due to lotsa lift and poor draglink angles.

If your not worried about bumpsteer, just make sure your P/S box isint bottomed out before you hit your steering stops. You can then go with a triangulated setup, and still have full steering

Personally i prefer a panhard to a 3 link or 4 link.

Hey FROG, see this??

PERSONALLY, meaning this is MY opinion, its not wrong, its just an opinion...

If you want to build 3 links all day long GO FOR IT!!!

I want a panhard, call me crazy, but i have not seen a 3 or 4 link that will work to my satisfaction...

I think that the amount of flex in the bushing, and or johny joint make a big difference in bump steer. Do to the way my suspension articulates I was forced to mount the panhard rod at a significantly flatter angle than my drag link. The vehicle does not have bump steer which suprised me. I am running a 3-link set up with a panhard rod. I am curious to see a 3-link with out a panhard rod (sometimes called trac rod).

I also think that it matters on how soft the front suspension is. I suspect that the more soft travel a front end has would have a dramatic effect on bump steer and handling. The reason I say this, is because the more the front suspension articulates the more pronounced the effective difference in panhard to draglink relationship angle there is. So having the angle off with small suspension movements wouldn't have much effect on handling unitl you really got your suspension moving. For rock crawling applications at slow speed bump steer is not a very important issue. For baja, high speed road use, etc. I imagine that you should make every possible change you can make in order to get the panhard identical to the drag link.

To answer the original question, length does matter :D

Way

I'm just gunna 4 link it and I think it will be ok cause I am gunna run hydro assist which should take the load off the steering box and put it all on the axle, or at least most of it. I am going to run my v links from the center lower portion of the rockwell housing and run them up to the bottom of the frame rails. Then just two sort of straight links one on each side of the third about 6 inches above the axle tube going to the upper portion of the frame rails to control the horizintal movement and pinion wrap. Should work, I'll post some pics when I finish it this week. My favorite part is that it has better ground clearance than my Dana 44 does!

Hey daniel, nice pics...

Originally posted by elf_cruiser


Hey FROG, see this??

PERSONALLY, meaning this is MY opinion, its not wrong, its just an opinion...

If you want to build 3 links all day long GO FOR IT!!!

I want a panhard, call me crazy, but i have not seen a 3 or 4 link that will work to my satisfaction...

oooops, sorry:(

did'nt mean to offend you. slip of the tongue i guess.

only wanted was to disagree with you, when you said that
3 or 4 links do not control side to side movement
as well as a panhard. on this opinion of mine i still stand,
but in a respectful way.

Originally posted by elf_cruiser


I want a panhard, call me crazy, but i have not seen a 3 or 4 link that will work to my satisfaction...


YOUR CRAZY!!!!

If you've seen a 4 link that dose'nt work to your satisfaction, it's a desighn flaw or a steering flaw, not the system itself.

ericfilar@fatcity




PANARDS are for ROOKS

I haven't had the panhard on for years. No point- the thing would bind durring max flex (that was never intended under the original factory design) and slot out the bolt holes. Was a cheep fix for roll over law suits. Bump steering ?