Okay...I'm second guessing again. I decided on 3/4 x 3/4 heims to locate my rear lower links...Running a D70 w/42" TSL's on a 4500lb rig...Static load rating on the heims is 28K...The links are at 8deg from horizontal and 52" long. There will be a 10" spread from the upper to lower link mounting locations. The lower link mounting at the axle will be poly (so some give there).

Upper links will be Jonny's at the top of pumpkin, and poly at the frame...With about a 20" spread "V" (from axle to frame rails).

This rig will only see steep ledges, rocks, rocks, rocks...

The only reason I'm not stepping up to a 1.25 shank 1" diameter hiem right now is the mounts are already built at the frame...Gusseted, drilled, sleeved welded for a 3/4" bolt...Now I'm looking for my prozac so I can just build and wheel this sucka' and stop over thinking this thing so much! BUT! I don't want to eventually be looking at my rear wheel under my driver seat either...ARRRG.

--D

Originally posted by RockRover
The only reason I'm not stepping up to a 1.25 shank 1" diameter hiem right now is the mounts are already built at the frame...Gusseted, drilled, sleeved welded for a 3/4" bolt... BUT! I don't want to eventually be looking at my rear wheel under my driver seat either...ARRRG.
--D

listen to your fears, they are right!!:D :D

what's the problem with using the 1" eye heim
rightaway? some drilling?

remember that a D-70(535lb) is only about 100 lb lighter
than a 2.5 Rockwell(640lb). so why lose sleep and
self confidence thinking all the time about what may
happen? just because you prefer being a lazy good for
nothing bum?:flipoff2: :rasta:

you aint gonna get that prozac from me man!

besides, i'm not a doctor, so i cant give to you anyway:p

end of disscution - go and work on your axles right away!!:beer:

I think your heims will work fine. I used to use 3/4-3/4 heims with the bore reduced to 5/8 for more misalignment. On my new setup i am using 3/4-5/8 heims which are rated 40k but dont get as much misalignment. I think you'll be ok....

Take this for what it is worth but here is a general rule of thumb which i follow. Size the heim to the bolt you want to use. There is no question in my mind that a 5/8" bolt is sufficient for control arms, you could use 3/4" if you wanted to be really overkill. A "good"(term used loosely) quality heim joint should outlast the bolt that goes through it. In otherwords, the 5/8" bolt going through my heims should fail before the joint will.

I think the only issue might be wearing the heims out, but not outright breaking them.

Good luck.

CJ

Originally posted by the frog


listen to your fears, they are right!!:D :D

what's the problem with using the 1" eye heim
rightaway? some drilling?

remember that a D-70(535lb) is only about 100 lb lighter
than a 2.5 Rockwell(640lb). so why lose sleep and
self confidence thinking all the time about what may
happen? just because you prefer being a lazy good for
nothing bum?:flipoff2: :rasta:

you aint gonna get that prozac from me man!

besides, i'm not a doctor, so i cant give to you anyway:p

end of disscution - go and work on your axles right away!!:beer:

Good for nothin' lazy bum!? Well now...We'll just have to get that Frog of yours out to New Mexico then won't we? Hell, it's not THAT far of a drive from Holister...Or is it because your skeerd AND lazy? :flipoff2: ;)

The reason is that I've already have a guessed plate with a 3/4" ID tube that runs through my boxed frame...Welded on both sides of the box (frame). Yea I could spend a few hours drillin' grindin' and cussin' to get it off/out, but it's soooo damn pretty, I'd hate to HAVE to re-work it if my reasoning is unfounded.

BTW, I thought you don't need a prescription for ANY drug in your neck of the woods! I know that Turkey and Greece is the Mecca of self-medication! (but that's only what I've heard....:rasta:

Thanks CJ... I know the 5/8's x 3/4's are at 40k static (approx.)....Maybe I could sleeve the 3/4 ID tube that goes through my frame and use the 5/8's with misalignment bushes...Hmmmmmm. It?s just the THOUGHT of a 5/8? bolt holding my world together?.

Anyone know the shear strength of a grade 8 5/8?s bolt??.Yea, I guess I am a lazy bastid?I?ll start searching!

-D

hey there rockrover,

seriously now - what i've posted represents one approach while what CJ did, represents another, very ligit one.

i prefer to go with an overkill with all the elements which
are very important as long as it does not add too much weight.

therefore, i put in the frog 1" eyed heims and i have the
full confidence whatever i do with that beast.

this, knowing that maybe, or probably, what CJ offered would have been just fine.

this is something that has to do with character, not mathematics.

for making my point of view clearer, look at the radius arms and triangle that i have - these are made of ST-52 steel with a 0.6" thick wall!!!

why? not because a 0.3" wo'nt hold, but because i wanted to be bombproof and be sure that my axles wo'nt move even a tiny little bit and to be able to come at a rock and ram it without being afraid of what's gonna happen. ican let the frog "sit" on those radius arms with it's full weight, and nothing happens.

as i said, this is about attitude and state of mind rather than of anything else.

at the end of this fine lecture:D :D i'd suggest that you do what makes you feel more comfortable than just what the numbers
tell you.

have fun anyway - this is what this sport is all about:beer: :beer:

i am getting ready to go out into the garage and hack off my 4 link mounts thet were just made for 3/4 heims and redo them for my new 1.25 x 1 heims. i just see way to many 3/4 heims :nuke:

3/4x3/4 are fine

ericfilar@fatcity

Almost every time I've seen rod end breakage it is from people overflexing the heim joint which kills the rod end quickly.

Example, tons of people put heims on their draglink and bolt the heims directly to the arm surfaces without misalignment spacers/bushings...on passenger side droop the heims quickly become maxed out so they break heims and say that tie rod ends are better.

Camo, what kind of breakage have you seen?

CJ

Doug,

The static load lb for a 3/4" Heim (3/4 - 16 threads per inch) heim with a 5/8" bolt is 40,572. This is for a heim joint that made of 52100 bearing steel. Common price for this heim is $29.50 each. Mis-alignment angle is 13. The cost of a misalignment bushing (to space heim away from mounting surface) for a 5/8" bolt is $3.50. The bushing is 5/8" icnhes tall as well.

Ironically a heim for a 3/4" bolt again with a (3/4 - 16 threads per inch)(assuming links already made and you want a 3/4" thread heim???) the static load is only 29,081. (misallignment angle of 14)

The trade of here is that you have a weaker heim, but a stronger bolt. Assuming that a heim can flex a bit (bolt cannot obviously), this is why systems fail with 3/4" heims. The heims I pulled the specs for are the strongest that I have seen. These are the heims that people like John Gilleland use without failure. They have a teflon/kevlar self lubricatin race, etc. They are heat treated blah blah blah.

Hope this info helps. I know I don't want to see your rig pull a Dr. Hinkle.

Way

Have no idea about grade eight bolt strength. I know that there are now grade 9 bolts. May want to look into those for your 5/8" strength.

<table border="1" cellspacing="0">
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center"><strong>Thread Size</strong></td>
<td align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center"><strong>Tensile
Strength</strong></td>
<td align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center"><strong>Yeild Strength
(0.2% offset)</strong></td>
<td align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center"><strong>Shear Strength^t
(lbf)</strong></td>
<td align="center" colspan="2" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center"><strong>Tightening
Torque</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0">&nbsp; </td>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center"><strong>ksi</strong></td>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center"><strong>lbf</strong></td>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center"><strong>ksi</strong></td>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center"><strong>lbf</strong></td>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center"><strong>Body</strong></td>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center"><strong>Thread</strong></td>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center"><strong>lbf.ft</strong></td>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center"><strong>Nm</strong></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1/4 - 20 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">4770</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">4130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">4420</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">2860</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">11.7</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">15.9</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">5/16 - 18 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">7860</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">6810</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">6900</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">4720</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">24.2</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">32.8</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">3/8 - 16 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">11630</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">10080</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">9940</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">6980</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">42.9</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">58.1</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">7/16 - 14 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">15950</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">13820</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">13530</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">9570</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">68.6</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">93.1</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1/2 - 13 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">21290</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">18450</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">17670</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">12770</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">105</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">142</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">9/17 - 12 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">27300</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">23660</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">22370</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">16380</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">205</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">5/8 - 11 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">33900</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">29380</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">27610</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">20340</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">210</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">280</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">3/4 - 10 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">50100</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">43420</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">39760</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">30060</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">370</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">500</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">7/8 - 9 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">69300</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">60060</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">54120</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">41580</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">600</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">810</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1 - 8 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">90900</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">78780</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">70690</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">54540</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">890</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">1210</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1-1/8 - 7 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">114450</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">99190</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">89460</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">68670</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">1270</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">1720</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1-1/4 - 7 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">145350</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">125970</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">110450</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">87210</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">1790</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">2420</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1-3/8 - 6 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">173250</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">133640</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">103950</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">2340</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">3180</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1-1/2 - 6 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">210750</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">182650</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">159040</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">126450</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">3110</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">4220</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1-3/4 - 5 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">285000</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">247000</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">216480</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">17100</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">4910</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">6650</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">2 - 4-1/2 UNC</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">375000</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">325000</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">282740</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">225000</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">7380</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">10000</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1/4 - 28 UNF</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">5460</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">4730</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">4420</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">3280</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">13.4</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">18.2</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">5/16 - 24 UNF</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">8700</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">7540</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">6900</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">5330</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">26.7</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">36.3</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">3/8 - 24 UNF</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">13170</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">11410</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">9940</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">7900</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">48.6</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">65.9</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">7/16 - 20 UNF</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">17810</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">15430</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">13530</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">10680</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">76.6</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">105</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1/2 - 20 UNF</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">23990</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">20790</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">17670</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">14390</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">118</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">160</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">9/16 - 18 UNF</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">30450</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">26390</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">22370</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">18270</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">170</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">230</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">5/8 - 18 UNF</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">38400</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">33280</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">27610</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">23040</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">240</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">320</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">3/4 - 16 UNF</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">55950</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">48490</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">39760</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">33570</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">410</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">560</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">7/8 - 14 UNF</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">76350</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">66170</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">54120</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">45810</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">660</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">890</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1 - 12 UNF</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">99450</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">86190</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">70690</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">59670</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">980</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">1330</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1-1/8 - 12 UNF</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">128400</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">111280</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">89460</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">77040</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">1420</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">1930</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1-1/4 - 12 UNF</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">160950</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">139490</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">110450</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">96570</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">1980</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">2680</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1-3/8 - 12 UNF</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">197250</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">170950</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">133640</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">118350</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">2670</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">3620</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td align="center" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><p align="center">1-1/2 - 12 UNF</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">273150</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">130</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">205530</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">159040</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">142290</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">3500</td>
<td align="center"><p align="center">4740</td>
</tr>
</table>

sweet, thanks WAY. Looks like a 3/4" joint and 3/4" bolt is just a tad bit stronger than a 5/8" bolt. 29,081 vs. 27, 610. I'm sure either one is fine for what we do. Monster trucks use 1" heims and don't break them, so i think a 3/4" would be more than strong enough. I wanted 1" heims for a while too, but i think now that i will use 3/4" just because they're cheaper and lighter. I think if you carry a few spares, they would be easy to change if something did happen.

Sorry for the formatting on the table. It displays fine on my web site, but the font colors are different (opposite) and something in the HTML code makes it display very low on the site???

Anyways the data is there. I also have the metric information on my site for those interested.

http://student.fortlewis.edu/~alway/grade8.htm

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
sweet, thanks WAY. Looks like a 3/4" joint and 3/4" bolt is just a tad bit stronger than a 5/8" bolt. 29,081 vs. 27, 610. I'm sure either one is fine for what we do. Monster trucks use 1" heims and don't break them, so i think a 3/4" would be more than strong enough. I wanted 1" heims for a while too, but i think now that i will use 3/4" just because they're cheaper and lighter. I think if you carry a few spares, they would be easy to change if something did happen.

Okay to add to this (and I like beating horses)...According to Way's chart a Grade 8, 5/8" bolt in SHEAR is rated at 27,610 (body) and a Grade 8, 3/4" bolt in shear is rated at 39,760....Now the Avalanche Eng. heim strength chart (best strength v.s. cost ratio I've seen) shows that a 5/8 x 3/4 heim to be rated at 40,572 STATIC....Similarly, a 3/4 x 3/4 heim is rated at 28,081 static.

So, in theory, a 5/8's bolt will fail WAY before the heim would (right in-line with what CJ was saying), and a 3/4" heim will fail at, or near the 5/8ths bolt shear point...While never even fatiguing the bolt. So the best money is spent on the 3/4 x 3/4 heim (same cost, little more stength as a component).

Now on to the obvious...A 1" x 1.25 heim is rated at 76, 280, and the bolt is 110,450....Okay...But at almost 3x the cost...And will they start getting sloppy as fast? Hmmmmm....

--D

Now on to the obvious...A 1" x 1.25 heim is rated at 76, 280, and the bolt is 110,450....Okay...But at almost 3x the cost...And will they start getting sloppy as fast? Hmmmmm....


So, like everything else, it a question of $$$

Originally posted by RockRover
Now on to the obvious...A 1" x 1.25 heim is rated at 76, 280, and the bolt is 110,450....Okay...But at almost 3x the cost...And will they start getting sloppy as fast? Hmmmmm....
--D

rockrover,

i would just like to repeat one of my favorite sayings
taught to me by my father -

"poor people just cannot afford to buy cheap stuff"

in the end, the cheaper stuff will cost you more:(

do it right the FIRST time, even if it's an overkill.