CJ5 Wont Start

[NotSosimple]

About 2 weeks ago I drove it around and it ran fine. The truck is a '73 CJ-5 w/ AMC 304 and stock points system. Came home, it stalled in the driveway and I could not get it started again.

Replaced: Coil (MSD Blaster), ignition switch, starter solonoid, ballast resistor (New .8 Ohm MSD). The points, condensor, plugs, and wires are all no older than 100 miles.

I checked timing and it is close (About 8* Advanced), but the sucker just turns over. It sounds like it wants to, but I cannot even get it to stumble. I hooked it up to my Optima Red I run in my other truck almost everyday and it does the same thing.

I am getting spark, up to 1/2" but it is yellow. I dont understand this as it is a brand new coil and ballast resistor!

Can anyone help me find the correct wiring from the battery, starter solonoid, alternator, ballast resistor, and coil? I think I might have them hooked up wrong.

[redneck23ms]

does it have gas? is fuel pump pumping? is fuel filter clogged. if your getting a 1/2" spark that should be plenty. sounds fuel related to me. try pouring a little gas in the carb anf then try to start it.not much. try that then post up and we can go from there.

[cphatmike101]

check the fuse.... never over look the fuse

[NotSosimple]

Whats this fuse you are talking about?

The original owner was a dumbass and it was jerry rigged, wiring wise. I think I got it more back to spec. The only fused was the constant hot for the ignition switch on the column.

I put gas and then some carb cleaner down the carb, no start. It did however spit it back out at me. Then I checked the timing (Poped plug #1, found TDC, looked and the timing mark was about 8* Advanced, so it should run). Even switched the distributor gear to one tooth over, nothing.

Fuel filter is a cheap clear one in between the fuel pump and carb. I can see it pulsing the fuel I can also see the carb spraying fuel when the gas pedal is pushed. The spark is yellow though which is weird?

With checking the timing AGAIN it does TRY to start. No sputtering but you can tell. I cranked til the Starter got hot. Any thoughts?

[NotSosimple]

Tried it again tonight, still nothing. Anyone?

[atblis]

Make sure you've got the timing right.

[NotSosimple]

Checked and double checked. The mark is about 8* advanced everytime.

[piratebuggy]

ok-you are not checking the ignition timing from the sounds of it-you are checking the accuracy of the timing mark which sounds like it is off. By rotating the piston on cylinder #1 up to TDC and looking at the mark it should read '0' or 'TDC'. Not sure why it would run one second and not the next but I had a similar problem on a Jeep I bought last fall. The PO had installed a new engine but didn't know squat about getting it running. Long story (and it's a LONG story) short-I got it running and actually drove it with the timing WAY off. It's a 304 engine also. If your #1 piston is actually at TDC ( not just kinda) then your timing mark should be at TDC not 8. Remark that if you are actually getting an accurate TDC at the piston (there is a method for this). You need to check the ignition timing with the engine running if you don't know how to static time it. I would set points using a dwell meter (when it's running also) as the gap method can be a little inaccurate. But it sounds like you've got good spark-I'm still thinking the timing could be off since you say you've got fuel at the carb. The spitting back would seem to indicate the timing being off also.

[Benzz0]

Is the coil grounded corectly?

[NotSosimple]

I do have a dwell meter, as well as a timing light..Both cant be used because the damn thing wont run.

Well should I turn the crank with a breaker bar until the timing mark is on 0 and then check the relation of the rotor to the distributor cap?

Coil grounded? It has the lead going from the coil to the dsitributor, the coil plug going to the distributor, one going directly from the starter solonoid the the coil, and one going from the ballast resistor to the coil.

[piratebuggy]

The coil doesn't get grounded-don't understand that post. You can look at the relation of the rotor to the cap for a rough idea, but that's not going to get you started. Just try rotating the distributor while cranking , leave the key on and jump the solenoid to crank it. If you didn't pull the distributor we can safely assume that it will get the timing right in a reasonable range of rotation, if that is actually the problem. Try looking at the points to make sure they didn't slip adjustment, probably a long shot. Static timing means looking for the spark at #1 while rotating the engine by hand. Then look at the timing mark, it will not be as accurate as the timing light however can get you in the ball park.

[NotSosimple]

Distributor was pulled at one time..It stopped running BEFORE being pulled though.

[bnine]

Check the little ground wire to the points.

Had this on a intersmashable that some freinds spent 2 days on before we found it.

[NotSosimple]

Ground wire on the points huh. Where is it supposed to be grounding to?

[bnine]

Ground wire on the points huh. Where is it supposed to be grounding to?


I've worked on points all of twice in my life. Once when I was 16, and once two months ago at a friends shop. So Im sorry if my description isnt really accurate.

All I know is he had that truck in there for two days and couldnt get it to run. In the end it was a little wire right around the points that had a break in it.

It was a really stupid little issue, that had him, and two of his mechanics stumped for two days.

Wasnt trying to skyhook or welding spark you or nothing. Just relaying a recent experience I had on points ignition.

good luck

[bnine]

Ground wire on the points huh. Where is it supposed to be grounding to?


I've worked on points all of twice in my life. Once when I was 16, and once two months ago at a friends shop. So Im sorry if my description isnt really accurate.

All I know is he had that truck in there for two days and couldnt get it to run. In the end it was a little wire right around the points that had a break in it.

It was a really stupid little issue, that had him, and two of his mechanics stumped for two days.

Wasnt trying to skyhook or welding spark you or nothing. Just relaying a recent experience I had on points ignition.

good luck

edit

Ok. I just got off the phone with the same shop. Its called a ground strap and should go from just under the points and mount to the base of the distributer.

Now that was on a intersmashable, I have no clue if a 304 uses the same set up. If it does. Check that.

[NotSosimple]

Thanks for the response bnine. No worries about skyhookin :D Trying to get all the info I can. Hmm I dont recall seeing a grounding strap/wire of any sort but I will double check it tonight after this damn thing called work.

[piratebuggy]

Well the points themselves don't ground out per se-they have a connection that goes to a condensor-the little cylinder shaped thing in there. The point plate in the distributor has a grounding wire or strap to ground it to the distributor body. It will usually be under the point plate itself-I don't have one of these distributors in my 304 as they had went electronic in 78. An ohmeter will tell you if the point plate is not grounded. But it's getting good spark right? Did you try moving the distributor around to see if it will try to fire?

[NotSosimple]

Just test continuity between the plate and dist. body? If it is getting continuity the ground is good, if not then check the ground?

Yes with vac. advanced off, tried cranking and rotating distributor with no effect. Same thing with turning it a bit while engine off.

[piratebuggy]

If you've got good spark then don't worry about the ground-but yes,continuity between the plate and distributor body. If you've got spark -and fuel, and I'm assuming compression (you do have compression right?), then it's got to be a matter of timing. When you crank it over with a spark plug removed it should have a good spray of air coming out of the spark plug hole. I have seen some new plugs get splash fouled and refuse to fire the motor. It was always where I worked at so I would try another set of plugs, realizing it's not so easy for you. Maybe it got flooded or something too-so try pulling the plugs out and have a good look at them.

[NotSosimple]

Ok its done with..Thanks for everyones help. Only 50psi Compression in the cylinders. Its toast..This is a shitty night.

[piratebuggy]

maybe timing chain slipped? that can cause an across the board compression loss like that.

[HsOffRoad]

That's what I was gonna say, timing chain....

[NotSosimple]

So are you saying replace the timing chain, and it might have good compression?

[YME]

What they are saying is to check your timing chain and see if the marks still line up. If the do, then that's not the problem. If they do not line up, they the timming chain has slipped and will cause problems.

[piratebuggy]

Yes, pull off the timing chain cover and check the marks. Then replace the timing chain if they don't line up -it will mean that it's worn out and has slipped. It won't cost that much for a timing chain set and you'll be smiling again. And from the symptoms that is a good possibility of what happened. Let us know what you find.(sorry my internet was down for a couple of days)

[Junk Yard Genius]

This is a simplified diagram of a points type ignition system.

http://www.junkyardgenius.com/ignition/wiring/Images/PointsIgn01.gif

-------------------------------

To verify to your crank position, harmonic balancer and distributor position, check here,

http://www.junkyardgenius.com/ignition/dist01.html

--------------------------------

The only real way to verify the cam timing is to pull the front cover off the engine and check the timing set.

You can also use a degree wheel on the crank shaft located at TDC of #1 compression stroke, and put a dial indicator on the rocker arm, but you will need the specs for the cam shaft you are using.

Taking the front cover off is the low budget way, but a lot more work.
Degree wheel and dial indicator will cost you money, but you won't have to take the front of the engine.

If you DO take the front cover off,
Spend a few bucks, get a true double roller timing chain set, new distributor drive gear and new fuel pump eccentric and install them!
Might as well have 1/2 the problems with the AMC V-8 taken care of while the front is off!

When you get your new timing set, distributor drive gear and fuel pump eccentric, make sure the oiling holes are drilled all the way through and working!
It looks like a little roll pin hole in the top sprocket and passes through the eccentric and into the distributor drive gear.
If you don't have them, or they are stopped up (and sometime not drilled all the way through) there will be no oiling to the engine accessories outside of the block.

[Junk Yard Genius]

Maybe this stupid BBS will let me reply today...

First, the coil housing does not ground.
The internal coils are insulated from the case, so you can hold the case in your hand and it will still work fine...

The primary (low voltage) circuit in the ignition coil is grounded through the points in the distributor.
The ignition coil doesn't fire until the points open and break the primary circuit.

As for the rest of the 'Answers', I won't comment...
---------------------------------------

Here is the diagram you asked for,
It's simple diagram but should get you pointed int he right direction.

http://www.junkyardgenius.com/ignition/wiring/Images/PointsIgn01.gif

The resistor (cerramic pot type or resistance wire type) can be excluded if you use an internally resisted coil. They were used on farm tractors for years and work fine. About the same price as regular canister coils...

I show optimum wire sizes, but I know the factory wiring may be smaller.

If you want to upgrade the points to an electronic ignition for cheap, and you are good with a file and drill, check here...

http://www.junkyardgenius.com/jeep/cj502.html

[piratebuggy]

Junkyard Genius--just want to point out the post where he stated his compression was at 50 psi for all cylinders. Why are you still going on about the ignition?

[littleredmule]

you can check the timing chain without pulling the cover. crank the motor to the marks,look@ the dist rotor and pull back the oppiset direction,till the rotor just starts to move. if the crank moves more than 2degrees your screwed. lrd

[theveno]

Could the timing be out 180'?

[piratebuggy]

Everybody needs to quit wild ass guessing stuff here. It was running up until it suddenly quit and never restarted. Now compression is across the board low. This is all consistent with timing chain jumping time (or belt in a different engine). If that's the case it really isn't that costly to fix-unless you were paying for the labor. Dig in there and fix it!