TTB or SAS

[halbritt]

I've got a '96 F150 that I'm interested in converting to 4WD. I came to this conclusion after considering the purchase of a new truck and then all the work that would ensue lifting it and preparing it for offroad use. I also have the necessary tools and fabrication skills to do the conversion.

My question is about the advantages of the TTB suspension over the SAS. I know that the SAS is stronger and easier to lift, but I don't intend to do much rockcrawling. I need 4WD to handle snow and offroad terrain. I'm also in the habit of doing some high-speed desert driving with this truck. Obviously a 2WD pre-runner type setup would be the most appropriate for this sort of thing, but I still need 4WD for other stuff. I'm wondering if a TTB suspension would be more stable in bumpy conditions over an SAS suspension. Admittedly the TTB would require more effort, so the relative merits would have to justify it, but I'm definitely open to doing either.

[animator]

If you're die-hard set on converting, a solid axle seems to be the easier choice.


Otherwise it's be much easier to sell or trade for a 4 wheel drive.

[Sexplorer]

You can probably do an SAS on it while not spending much more if any than putting TTB on it. Solid axles are a lot easier to maintain, and worlds stronger. A high pinion Dana 44 from a '77.5-'79 f150 is the strongest without going 8-lug. Leaf springs are a lot cheaper, but then again if this is your daily-driver you would probably want at least coil springs. A solid, coil sprung axle will probably be smoother than the TTB in high speed rough stuff, mainly beacuse the design of the TTB tends to lift the vehicle up upon acceleration, reducing available suspension travel and creating gobs of bumpsteer. In the end, you get a lot more for your money with a solid axle, and you'll most likely end up hating the TTB later on if you go with it.

[halbritt]

In either case, I'd use coil springs. I'm not too worried about which method would be cheaper. I am mostly concerned about the handling characteristics of either. People say awful things about the TTB, but it's generally related to strength in rock crawling endeavors. Bump-steer on a TTB is definitely a pain, though. I once bump-steered my truck into a pond.

[94stepsideford]

A solid, coil sprung axle will probably be smoother than the TTB in high speed rough stuff, mainly beacuse the design of the TTB tends to lift the vehicle up upon acceleration, reducing available suspension travel and creating gobs of bumpsteer.
really?? well allow to to tell you that it DOESNT:flipoff2: WTF do you think the trophy trucks use IFS? for fun?:confused:

[d9d]

High speed desert flyin' ??

...and -landing- ??

AND it's a daily-driver too?

Oh man....you're going to -hate- the (Ford) TTB. :D

You'll never be able to keep it in alignment...

I know several around me that just go in and out of -ranches-, and they won't stay aligned.

The guys who own the 4x4 IDI Ford diesels 84-94 hate the TTB.

As far as 'ride'....gawd yes, go with the coils.

I've got about a mile between our gate and our cabin; not bad for a mine-road; but lots of curves, a stream-crossing, lotsa shallow 'potholes' from rain-plus-driving-on-it damage. The F350 4x4 diesel destroys my spine just going from gate to cabin at 10mph.

Solids on leafs all around.

Conversely, I've taken the wife's slightly-lifted '95 ZJ over that snaky multi-s-curved potholed stretch at 50+ mph and never even skipped the CD :D

fawking unbelievably good ride and handling that vehicle has....for a semi-capable near-stock 4x4.

That one is solids on coils all around.

oh yeah, my mining partner has a ton of Fords, and uses an F150 4x4 around his farm and for trips to town....can't remember the year....'82 maybe?....anyway, he HATES the TTB....says it strips splines on one of the half-shafts (left maybe? can't remember)....and of course it too doesn't stay aligned...eats tires.

Not saying IFS isn't good....just reporting that every single person I know with a Ford TTB 4x4 wishes real hard that they had a solid front axle... :D

[4x4junkie]

In either case, I'd use coil springs. I'm not too worried about which method would be cheaper. I am mostly concerned about the handling characteristics of either. People say awful things about the TTB, but it's generally related to strength in rock crawling endeavors. Bump-steer on a TTB is definitely a pain, though. I once bump-steered my truck into a pond.
People do say awful things about it, but for some unknown reason I still haven't been able to figure out, almost no one ever seems to think about checking or doing anything about the shitty steering geometry that often plagues their lifted TTB trucks :confused: .

You can easily have a TTB that steers straight and also doesn't eat up tires if you take a moment to think through your steering angles.

TTB certainly has more involved with aligning it than a straightaxle though, this is true. Coilspring height (and the resulting ride height of the suspension) are important for getting the camber to align. I think it's well worth it though if you are doing any hi-speed stuff at all (or even if you just want to be 'different'... I rockcrawl my TTB. Works fine if you got it setup well (mostly just avoiding stiffassed TTB lift coils). Watching people's smirks turn to dropped jaws is always fun when flexing it out on a nice obstacle lol).


A 4WD TTB frontend (which is based on a HP D44 BTW) should bolt right in for the most part on your '96. The bigger part of the conversion will be sourcing and swapping the trans/t-case.

[halbritt]

I'm familiar with the shortcomings of the TTB steering geometry (truck -> pond) and how awful it can get when lifted. I think I have the fabrication skills to overcome that as much as it can be overcome in that setup. It mostly has to do with keeping the tie rods parallel to either arm of the suspension.

I've seen a couple of tweaks to correct the camber as well. Some are as simple as using a dropped bracket, which affect ground clearance. Others are more difficult and esoteric, such as lengthening and putting a curve in the end of each arm, which is something I think I can do. If it can be made strong, I feel like I can probably figure it out, so I'm not too worried about it. I'm still wondering about the handling differences, and the ease with which I can source a TTB axle. Given all the SAS conversions, I suspect it won't be too difficult. I'm suppose I'm biased towards the TTB, because I seem to think the IFS should handle better. I'm looking to have that bias debunked.

I should note that my high-speed desert driving doesn't include jumping. Atleast, not intentionally, so I'm not too worried about dealing with landing stresses. As for coils, I want maximum wheel travel and not too much lift, so I'd probably end up with custom shock hoops and long progressive rate coils.

[94stepsideford]

I'm familiar with the shortcomings of the TTB steering geometry (truck -> pond) and how awful it can get when lifted. I think I have the fabrication skills to overcome that as much as it can be overcome in that setup. It mostly has to do with keeping the tie rods parallel to either arm of the suspension.

I've seen a couple of tweaks to correct the camber as well. Some are as simple as using a dropped bracket, which affect ground clearance. Others are more difficult and esoteric, such as lengthening and putting a curve in the end of each arm, which is something I think I can do. If it can be made strong, I feel like I can probably figure it out, so I'm not too worried about it. I'm still wondering about the handling differences, and the ease with which I can source a TTB axle. Given all the SAS conversions, I suspect it won't be too difficult. I'm suppose I'm biased towards the TTB, because I seem to think the IFS should handle better. I'm looking to have that bias debunked.

I should note that my high-speed desert driving doesn't include jumping. Atleast, not intentionally, so I'm not too worried about dealing with landing stresses. As for coils, I want maximum wheel travel and not too much lift, so I'd probably end up with custom shock hoops and long progressive rate coils.
then ttb all the way

[Sexplorer]

really?? well allow to to tell you that it DOESNT:flipoff2: WTF do you think the trophy trucks use IFS? for fun?:confused:


Trophy trucks dont use stock TTB's to the best of my knowledge...:shaking:
I doubt you will find a truck with stock TTB that outperforms a truck (in any situation, except grading roads) that has had a stock hp44 swapped under it

[jwhoss76]

Trophy trucks dont use stock TTB's to the best of my knowledge...:shaking:
I doubt you will find a truck with stock TTB that outperforms a truck (in any situation, except grading roads) that has had a stock hp44 swapped under it
:laughing: Dude give it up. If you want to argue TTB versus SAS go talk to the guys at AutoFab. You won't like it, I sure didn't


If you want to go TTB go for it. It's almost as strong as any stock 44. The bumpsteer can be fixed. TTB can be a pain to align but once it is aligned properly there should be no worries about trashing tires if you watch your pressure.
EXAMPLE: My 88 Bronco is bone stock with 34/10.50 LTBs, I have over 20K on my Swampers and they're still at 80% tread, I have very little bumpsteer. But then again I check my tire pressure weekly, run the recommended tire pressure, and I keep my front end properly lubed. I know, I'm weird.:flipoff2:
If you were building a trail beater I'd recommend the SAS. But what you're talking about would suit IFS better. Just my opinion.

[DoOgster]

If you want to keep the TTB for the desert stuff you should check out what the desert guys do. Check out Camburg and Mcniel offroad to see what they do for their TTB trucks.

[zainyD]

As I understand it the D44 TTB beams will bolt right up under your vehicle using the same pivot brackets as the i-beams in which case all you'll need to do to convert it fully is to get a t-case and driveshafts. I would suggest finding a manual t-case for ease of conversion.

Do what others have suggested and talk with, Camburg, Autofab, McNeil, and some of the other companies that specialize in long travel TTB systems.

[Ditchrunner]

TTB not good for high speed desert??? WTF are you talking about? Have you ever driven a TTB setup and a solid axle setup over the same rough terrain?
I have, and I can absolutely guarantee you that the TTB kicks the dog poo out of a solid axle setup (assuming similar shocks and coil rates, vehicle weight, etc) and all you have to do to put TTB under a 2wd is source a wrecked 4wd and swap the brackets over into the predrilled holes, swap the tierods, and bolt in the TTB stuff. Easy. Then you have to change the tranny and get the 4wd crossmember, but that is a wash.
I raced a 1980 bronco and everyone in my little local racing organization laughed at me until they rode in it and realized why I was whooping up on them. Not power, but handling and not having my vision gray out on every piddly-assed piece of washboard.
There are disadvantages to TTB, don't get me wrong, but it is not nearly as bad as so many people on here think (remember the Parrot4x4 quote???)
I've wheeled and raced TTB, and I love it, when either left alone except for proper maintenance, or modified correctly.

[sceep]

also, remember that the 2wd frames are already drilled to accept all the TTB setup.. its an afternoon bolt on.

[RawPower]

I know several around me that just go in and out of -ranches-, and they won't stay aligned.

The guys who own the 4x4 IDI Ford diesels 84-94 hate the TTB.

First part, ditto.
Second part, you mean 4x4 F250's and 2wd F250/F350's... 4x4 F350's had D60's...

People do say awful things about it, but for some unknown reason I still haven't been able to figure out, almost no one ever seems to think about checking or doing anything about the shitty steering geometry that often plagues their lifted TTB trucks :confused: .

You can easily have a TTB that steers straight and also doesn't eat up tires if you take a moment to think through your steering angles.


Well... The only one that I have witness very closely had a 6" lift and after the lift was installed, 3 alignment shops couldn't get it right again... Although it does steer straight, the TTB does chew on the tires a good bit.

[halbritt]

Well... The only one that I have witness very closely had a 6" lift and after the lift was installed, 3 alignment shops couldn't get it right again... Although it does steer straight, the TTB does chew on the tires a good bit.

If a TTB isn't lifted correctly, it will suffer positive camber and eat up the tires. The only really good way I know to lift it is to cut and lengthen the traction beams adjusting camber in the process. This is what autofab does. I doubt that any alignment shop would be willing to tackle the process of adjusting camber on a TTB suspension.

[TANNERJENNINGS24]

I run ttb in my pro areana race truck, it works better then sas.
Just watch out for the third member on it you lift it cause if you jump it alot the bracket rite above the third member can and will punch a long skinny hole in it.
It happened on the race truck a few years back, we keeped smelling gear oil but we could not find were it was coming from tell we pulled the third member.

[DAMAGED I]

If you plan on some high-speed driving then id reccomend TTB ALL THE WAY!From what ive seen sas doesnt allow for enough up travel before hitting the oil pan or frame.Add in to the fact theres more unsprung weight and the "forced" camber change thru eneven terrain.The Moss Broes. run a 78 bko with S/A in the SCORE series with great success,but i would bet even they would tell you their biggest disadvange is the S/A and short wheelbase in the rough stuff.Drive both before you make youre decision,it will be a no-brainer.

[animator]

First part, ditto.
Second part, you mean 4x4 F250's and 2wd F250/F350's... 4x4 F350's had D60's...



Well... The only one that I have witness very closely had a 6" lift and after the lift was installed, 3 alignment shops couldn't get it right again... Although it does steer straight, the TTB does chew on the tires a good bit.



Not all F350s have/had Dana 60s.

But yes, a 6" lifted TTB will eat up tires. It was one reason I went with a solid axle.

If you plan on some high-speed driving then id reccomend TTB ALL THE WAY!From what ive seen sas doesnt allow for enough up travel before hitting the oil pan or frame.Add in to the fact theres more unsprung weight and the "forced" camber change thru eneven terrain.The Moss Broes. run a 78 bko with S/A in the SCORE series with great success,but i would bet even they would tell you their biggest disadvange is the S/A and short wheelbase in the rough stuff.Drive both before you make youre decision,it will be a no-brainer.



a solid axle will hit the engine crossmember, which would prevent it from hitting the oil pan.

[4x4junkie]

Well... The only one that I have witness very closely had a 6" lift and after the lift was installed, 3 alignment shops couldn't get it right again... Although it does steer straight, the TTB does chew on the tires a good bit.
Above 3-4" lift or so is where the typical problems do start to occur. Standard drop pitman arms only drop down 2-3" compared to stock and do not fully correct the steering angle, so that sounds pretty typical.

There are a few different ways to approach the steering, the best IMO for general wheeling/crawling/trail running/DD use is ditching that POS stock Y-linkage for something based on the design of Superlift's Superrunner linkage.

Superrunner setup:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v173/sfr4x4/installed.jpg

If you are heavily into the hi-speed stuff (and have done a number of go-fast mods such as cut & modified beams), then what's called a Crossover (aka Swingset) linkage is best. These setups are far more complex than a superrunner-type setup though (and can be difficult to implement on a 4x4 due to the diff housing in the way).

A Crossover setup:
http://www.supermotors.org/getfile/293919/fullsize/PA120014.JPG

The only really good way I know to lift it is to cut and lengthen the traction beams adjusting camber in the process. This is what autofab does.
That's what's popular in the desert/prerunner scene. The big benefit is better clearance when jumping & landing (brackets aren't hanging down as low).
One thing it does do though is increase the amount of tire scrub (in/out movement of the tire with suspension travel), due to the pivot point being higher up in the chassis compared to when using stock beams on lift brackets. The added jacking effect can make for some interesting handling while crawling up an off-camber hillclimb. Unless you would be jumping the thing a lot, I would stick with a set of good sturdy lift brackets for it, myself, and leave the beams stock (finding a kit with sturdy brackets can be a bit daunting though, Skyjacker (the Class2 kits) is one of very few).

[DAMAGED I]

I believe that AutoFab makes some race strength fabbed drop brackets.But they will probably cost more than a complete skyjacker lift.
Animator,crossmember or oil pan its still limited up travel. I do agree with you that a SAS would be easier and cheaper.And would work great for trails.It really all depends on what he wants to do with it.I would drive both,see what i liked best and then sell/trade for a 4x already equiped and then start mods from there.

[halbritt]

Selling and trading for another 4wd is a hassle and wouldn't serve much benefit. Basically, that would get me a tranny, a transfer case, and a front suspension, all of which could be acquired cheaply, relative to the other stuff that I'll need. Those parts would either be reworked or replaced in any case.

I should've stated this to begin with, but one of my goals here is simply to create a project for myself. I'm not looking for an easy or cheap route. I am a metal fabricator with the necessary tools and skills to build just about anything and I am looking for a challenge. What I lack is experience doing fabrication for off-road vehicles, though I do have a fair amount of academic knowledge in that regard. I'm looking to apply that knowledge and gain some experience in the process. I'd not purchase some race-strength dropped brackets when I could build some relatively quickly. Note that I used the term "build", the design might take some time to get sorted, but the actual fabrication process goes pretty quickly.

Right now, I'm leaning towards the TTB front suspension with extended beams as that sounds like the most interesting course of action. This is all pie in the sky at the moment, so I don't expect to get much respect just for having plans.

[brokebronco]

Two folks already said it but it keeps disapearing in the bashing.

A ttb44 will bolt in place of your Twin i beam with no modification. All that would be left is to change the tranny to 4x4 and add the xfer case.

As to which is best? Make your own descision based on what you are going to use it for. You are the one who has to live with it not us.

[halbritt]

Two folks already said it but it keeps disapearing in the bashing.

A ttb44 will bolt in place of your Twin i beam with no modification. All that would be left is to change the tranny to 4x4 and add the xfer case.

I did see that and I admit, that certainly one of the benefits of using TTB.

As to which is best? Make your own descision based on what you are going to use it for. You are the one who has to live with it not us.

Indeed. I was looking for other opinions and I got 'em. There's not much else for me to say on this topic, now it's time to either put up or shutup, so to speak. Hopefully, by this time next year, I'll be able to post results of the buildup.

[Andy351]

if you have to ask, then you don't want a solid axle