Radius arm suspension help

[87 pathy]

Ok, I have an 87 pathfinder on full width F100 axles. I have custom made radius arm mounts (that are sloppy on purpose), rubber bushings, wristed radius arm, and my front end doesn't flex at all. I know that this suspension setup is not ideal for flex but this is nonsence. I'm running EB Wildhorse 5.5" lift rock crawler coils.

My rear suspension is a custom triangulated 4 link, that moves like crazy and perfectly. Running EB Wildhorse 3.5" lift rock crawler coils.

Any advise on how to get my front end moving? Is it possible that my rear end moves so well it doesn't make the front work?

Any advise is appreciated.

JP

[DRKelly]

It sounds like it ought to move good. Have you just tested it in the yard, or have you taken it out on the trail? Post some pics, this sounds like a cool looking truck. I have a wristed arm and am running 5.5" BC Bronco coils on my cab truck and my front flexes great. Are you sure the wristed arm is free to move and not binding or anything weird?

Trying to help, but not sure where to start.

DK

[87 pathy]

Ya, i'm wondering if its binding, it was tight but not that tight. I'm thinking about heating it and rapid cool to pull the arms out, so i don't have to take the damn thing apart again.

[87 pathy]

This is before the wristed arm

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/DSCF0284.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/DSCF0285.jpg

This is after the wristed arm

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/DSCF0469.jpg

One of me wheeling
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/IMG_1795.jpg

[Hyde]

Definately the most bitchin pathfinder I've ever seen, try to back up that econo-block to see if it will flex the front

[87 pathy]

Definately the most bitchin pathfinder I've ever seen, try to back up that econo-block to see if it will flex the front

Thanks! i like it, if you would like to see more, check out:


http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/

about backing up on it, Ya i have and i just stuff my rear tire and up on it i go.

I need to get in a situation where it will droop, i know i will have more droop than compression.

[Hyde]

How do you like the wildhorses springs? Thats probably what I'll use for my explorer sas. Check it out, havent started it yet

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2406813

[87 pathy]

The are great in the rear, i can load it up and still huals and flexes great. I'll let you know about the front when i get it moving properly. I think they would work good in an exporer

[alx]

How do you like the wildhorses springs? Thats probably what I'll use for my explorer sas. Check it out, havent started it yet

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2406813


ive got the 5.5's in my explorer
http://www.rrorc.com/gallery/data/569/medium/chubfest2006_010.jpg

[NetBSD]

ive seen this way to much with my old 44
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/girlsandzach031.jpg

[Hyde]

nice rig alx, think you could give me some specs? I think I'm gonna use the 4.5's and a Dana 30(dont flame it) with a spring over in the rear and shackles to even it out if I need to.

[Gummi Bear]

For one, you've got some bumpsteer issues, that's not helping any. You need to raise your track bar mount at the axle end since you flipped your tie rod to the top of the knuckle. Your suspension at the track bar is fighting the steering linkage, this is causing binding. Do you notice the steering wheel being jerky on the trail and the street?

A Wild Horses track bar riser will help, BC Broncos also offers one, if you don't have the ability to fab a beefy one on your own.

Other thoughts:

Which side did you put the wristed arm on anyhow? (yes, it makes a difference)

How are your shocks?

Are they oriented the right way?

Are they clear of everything?

[87 pathy]

For one, you've got some bumpsteer issues, that's not helping any. You need to raise your track bar mount at the axle end since you flipped your tie rod to the top of the knuckle. Your suspension at the track bar is fighting the steering linkage, this is causing binding. Do you notice the steering wheel being jerky on the trail and the street?

A Wild Horses track bar riser will help, BC Broncos also offers one, if you don't have the ability to fab a beefy one on your own.

Other thoughts:

Which side did you put the wristed arm on anyhow? (yes, it makes a difference)

How are your shocks?

Are they oriented the right way?

Are they clear of everything?

I have 0 bump steer issues, however i will keep in mind droping the track bar.
I don't want to flatten in too much cause then my drag link and track bar will be at different angles, Causing bump steer. I can't get a dropped pitman arm for the nissan steering box

Edit: I forgot, i really havn't driven it since the Flipped tie rod, and new drag link. But before i didn't have flex either. Angles were better with the stock drag link and old steering setup. I'll look at that though

I fabbed EVERYTHING on that rig, i can handle some small brackets.

wristed on the long side

Shocks are free, they are pro comp ex3000 series with 15.8" of travel

I think i'm gonna try loosening up my wrist a little it was tight but not too tight, i thought it would be ok, i'll start there.

The broken U-joint, it was an old u-joint that i believe was defective cause i wasn't on it that hard when it let go. They are all new now.

I'm trying to get this thing ready for the 'Con. I'll be there on August 25th!

Question about the wrist, does it need to be sloppy loose? (i know not around the bolt, i'm not really a newb i fabricate heavy equipment for a living)

I like the input, keep it comming. I'm out of town right now on business i'll start with raising the track bar mount on the axle and trying to loosed up the wrist.

Do you fellas agree to start here?

[mad_boi]

A lot of the SAS'd Explorers/Rangers have good results with the same set up you have but maybe you need a softer coil like a TJ or XJ coil...just a thought.

[collinsperformance]

as i look at the pictures it looks like the front radius arms ar being pulled into the center alot. are the arm parallel to the fram and 90degrees to the front axle? i wonder if they are binding instead of flexing.......by the way good looking truck.......mike

[Gummi Bear]

I have 0 bump steer issues, however i will keep in mind droping the track bar.
I don't want to flatten in too much cause then my drag link and track bar will be at different angles, Causing bump steer. I can't get a dropped pitman arm for the nissan steering box

Edit: I forgot, i really havn't driven it since the Flipped tie rod, and new drag link. But before i didn't have flex either. Angles were better with the stock drag link and old steering setup. I'll look at that though

I fabbed EVERYTHING on that rig, i can handle some small brackets.

wristed on the long side

Shocks are free, they are pro comp ex3000 series with 15.8" of travel

I think i'm gonna try loosening up my wrist a little it was tight but not too tight, i thought it would be ok, i'll start there.

The broken U-joint, it was an old u-joint that i believe was defective cause i wasn't on it that hard when it let go. They are all new now.

I'm trying to get this thing ready for the 'Con. I'll be there on August 25th!

Question about the wrist, does it need to be sloppy loose? (i know not around the bolt, i'm not really a newb i fabricate heavy equipment for a living)

I like the input, keep it comming. I'm out of town right now on business i'll start with raising the track bar mount on the axle and trying to loosed up the wrist.

Do you fellas agree to start here?


You don't want a drop pitman, nor do you want to lower the track bar mount at the frame. You want to raise the track bar mount at the axle. When you hunker down in front of your rig, you want the drag link to hide the panhard. Then they're parallel, and will flex with no bind.

You said that the wristed arm is on the long side, I'm hoping that you mean on the passenger side, which is correct. The wrist should be free enough that you can move it by hand with some resistance, but smooth. The vehicle is plenty heavy enough for it to move. (full body pathy's are pigs)

Which direction are your shock eyes oriented? At both the top, and the bottom, they should be parallel to the RA so that they move in the correct plane at extension and compression.

At that point, your driveshaft may well be causing some bind.

Find a ramp, whether it's an RTI ramp, or a loading dock ramp, and flex your junk out. Pull it up on there, and crawl around your rig looking for stuff that's binding. It will be obvious if you stand back a little.

Weight wise, the front of a pathy is fairly comparable to the EB, so I don't think the springs are a big contributing factor.

Without being able to see your rig in person, it's difficult to pinpoint what may be causing your bind. I'm trying here, man...:)

[87 pathy]

The stock radius arms are not perpendicular to the frame.

How they were located on my vehicle, is = bolted up to the axle using 7 deg "C" bushings, rotated up toward the frame at right height until i hit -3 deg of caster, then i took the radius arm mount and takced it in place, then i took the mounts and welded them up. They are as free as can be and at the right angles.

Yes, passengers side of the vehicle for the wrist

Pathy's are pigs, (4k lbs) Its not a coil issue, as my ass end flexes great using the same coils as the front.

Thanks for all the help guys! I'm gonna start with freeing up the wristed radius arm and lifing the PH on the axle.

[Greatlakeoffroad]

They are correct you do not want to drop your track bar as this will eventually tear away at the frame (at least it did on every EB I ever saw who did it that way) Another thought is to extend your radius arms using heavy wall DOM tube and a 1" Heim on the back end. With heims in place of the stock bolt/nut and rubber bushings it will drop til you either bottom out the coils or whatever you run for a front setup. I personally went to air shocks on my EB and cannot be more pleased. I am eventually going to run 1" heims and longer radius arms on it. Shawn

[87 pathy]

Ya, i know about not dropping it, i just stated my thought wrong.

Eventually i am going to run heimies on my radius arms (i have another set of radius arms)but for now i'm trying to get it to flex better for teh con in the end of august (towin my junk from seattle) I don't have much time to work on it as i'm in ohio at the moment. I still have to finish my half doors when i get home, so all this work must be completed in 2 weeks while working every day. it will be joyus fun

[rok-jeep]

Ya, i know about not dropping it, i just stated my thought wrong.

Eventually i am going to run heimies on my radius arms (i have another set of radius arms)but for now i'm trying to get it to flex better for teh con in the end of august (towin my junk from seattle) I don't have much time to work on it as i'm in ohio at the moment. I still have to finish my half doors when i get home, so all this work must be completed in 2 weeks while working every day. it will be joyus fun

I was going to ask, what are you running on the frame mount of the radius arm? Stock bushings? R.E. joints? Heims? Are the arms stock length or have you lengthened them? I'm running a non-wirsted radius arms set up the front of my XJ with a fullwidth HPD44 and it flexes like crazy. But I lengthened my arms and run R.E. joints at the frame. I think I have a good flex shot from my last Con trip but I can't get it resized to work if someone wants to help with that I can email it to them.
Geoff

[87 pathy]

stock length and running stock rubber bushings.
mounts were designed to hold the radius arms at a natural angle so there is no binding at ride height.

[rok-jeep]

I emailed that pic to have it resized. He should post it up soon. I have a few build up pics at this link which can give you an idea of how I built it up and some detailed pics of the suspension. The pics are on the 3rd or 4th page. The pic I'm having resized shows the flex I got out of it.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=424394&highlight=fullwidth+buildup

[welndmn]

Do you have any pics of it not flexing?
Get a front tire in the air and go take pics of it.

[87 pathy]

Do you have any pics of it not flexing?
Get a front tire in the air and go take pics of it.


Clarify, Not flexing? My ass end flexes so good i havn't lifted a tire yet. I'm 3000 miles away from the rig now but i'll see how it goes.

Rok-Jeep. I like your pan hard axle mount. I have ideas now.. thanks!
i think mine will be getting the same treatment, however by the time i get to work on it an get to the con.. i'll have about 1 day to git-R-Done.

JP

[DRKelly]

Here you go rok-jeep:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d117/drkelly99/xjflexpic2-0.jpg

DK

[vintagespeed]

I'd look at spring weights. Being coils at both ends, if the front coils are stiffer than the rear the rear will do all the work.

Drive the rear up on a ramp until you lift a front tire, then take a picture & post it. Ramping the rear will flex the front.

[rok-jeep]

Thanks for resizing the pic for me. The x-member has since been welded to the unibody, it has the hydro assist on it now and the springs have settled down a few inches as ride height. How that helps a little. PM me if you have any questions.

Geoff

[68Broncoholic]

I assume you have flexed it without the shocks to know there is no bind there.
Next would be to loosen the wristed arm, mine moves by hand.
My trac bar was twisting so I added a heim joint trac bar. I also did the tie-rod over so I didn't need a drop pitman arm. I did have to raise the frame mount cause it was hitting the tie-rods.
On a side note:
A friends Bronco flexed like crazy up front and not the rear (backwards of yours). He had Duff's extended arms and the rear was leafs. He changed the leafs to 3.5" coils and a 4 link. Now the rear flexed like crazy and the front didn't any more. Its real strange cause I've seen it work on other Broncos with amazing results. My buddy changed the front and rear coils out to coil overs and 4 linked the front. Now its fixed but I'm wondering why also. It wasn't the driveline or the bind at the radius arm to frame cause it flexed before. Seems the rear will unload before the front and since there is so much flex back there the front doesn't need to do anything. The rear is just making the truck lean. Once you get the front flexin your rig should sit almost level when you drive up that same obstacle with the front tire. Driving backwards up the ramp should flex the front and not the rear as much.

[87 pathy]

Ya, thats what i'm wondering, about the rear. I put limiting straps on the rear as well cause it was flexing more than it could take. (I have them captured on both ends and i actually pulled them out of the retianers.. Stock ford retainers made to hold it.)

My drive line should be ok, i can rotate the drive line by hand at full dropp and compression.

I am leaning toward teh wrist is too tight, and my track bar is binding, i built it so now i can see in my head the twising geometry due to the mounts.. i am going to raise the axle mount and re-angle the track bar. If I have time before aug 24th i'll build a custom track bar.

I am traveling on business so.. i'll start on it this weekend

[Jeeper Tim]

Mine's not flexing right either. I don't have a wrist in it yet though. I plan to wheel it all next week in colorado to see how it does before changing anything.

http://bigredheep.com/jeepernumerouno/images/content/YJ%20Build/Progress%207282006%20002.jpg

I built custom arms with flex joints at the frame. Those are stock TJ coils and 39.5 Iroks.

By the way, the only thing jeep there is the body and frame - everything else is F150.:grinpimp:

[87 pathy]

gotta be the damn Pan hard rod. First thing on my list fix that Fawker

[DRKelly]

FWIW, I am running a bushing on the frame end of my pan hard/track bar, and a 3/4 x 3/4 heim on the axle end.

[87 pathy]

Ok, Well i'm home and have been working on my junk.

the pan hard was loaded up tremendously at ride hight. That is fixed.
i also raised the pan hard on the axle about 3".

After i took my shocks off ( i should have tried this before, shame on me)
My wristed radius arm moves by me just pushing on the bumper so its not binding.

I am going to relocate my lower shock mounts to see if that removes the remainder of the bind.

I'll post pics later this week

[Jeeper Tim]

My junk wheeled great in Colorado last week. Kept all the wheels on the ground very well. I don't think I'll mess with anything for a while.:D

[87 pathy]

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/DSCF0673.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/DSCF0674.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/DSCF0675.jpg

This was no trouble getting up. the front will flex alot more i believe.. Now to trim the front fenders.. I guess there is something to say about not enough flex. At first i didn't have to do any trimming

[WHITE RHINO]

im half way through my SAS on my 88' Ranger i basically plated the stock radius arms grinded them down to accept 2" DOM 1/4 wall tubing over about 10 inches of the stock arms and extended them about a foot and ended them with currie johnny joints. Im going to run fox air shocks for now and i have a short style heimed track bar. From looking at the picture of you rig i'd say do something different with your trac bar for sure possibly consider lengthening/heiming/johnny jointing the stocks arms

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e258/mikes1988pos/073006_18302.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e258/mikes1988pos/halfdoor.jpg

[bigreen]

id like to see where your upper trac bar mount is...or get some measurements.

but #1 u need some joints on that trac bar, thats certainly gonna be twisting in more than one way.

#2 just looks like the trac bar is a little on the short and steep side, the more u flex that thing, the more it moves that axle side to side (making the problem then the rear radius arm mounts beings bushings.)

so id say joint the trac bar and raise the lower mount, and if possible move the top mount outboard some. Then comes jointing the rear of the radius arms.



...but since that latest pic...certainly u helped it out a bunch with whatever u did (didnt see what u said u changed)

good luck dude...mean pathfinder

[87 pathy]

I outboarded my shocks on the axle (this removed some binding)
I re-indexed my pan hard at the frame. somehow it was pushing the oposite end toward teh front of the vehicle. This caused it to bind under droop.
I raised the pan hard on the axle. I don't have a pic but it is now exactly paralell with the drag link.

It was a little steap. its much better now. the track bar is a stock one from a 1972 ford F100. I'm going to the con next week and still have a few odds and ends to do so the Heim joint track bar is going to wait till this winter.

Thanks for everyones help. Hope to see you all on the trail

[WHITE RHINO]

it worked out good for me when weight is applied to thehanging side it drops at least another 5 inches so the air shocks will beable to flex to the full 14"
pics kinda suck but better than nada

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e258/mikes1988pos/flex.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e258/mikes1988pos/flex2s.jpg

started plating the frame in the rear for the inboarded 63's nicely stick welded
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e258/mikes1988pos/flex3.jpg

[87 pathy]

well i'm pleased to say that the front end is flexing nicely. I ran the rubicon last weekend and everything worked great. Here is a couple pics of me in the True Big sluice
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/Rubicon087.jpg
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/Rubicon089.jpg

[supergildo]

so what was it finally? or did you do nothing and it just worked?

[87 pathy]

so what was it finally? or did you do nothing and it just worked?

3 things actually.

1) there was a dome dust cover on top of my shocks at the attachement point. This little dust dome was binding and not allowing the shocks to move from side to side. I cut back this dome, and then moved my shocks outboard a little on the axle. this eliminated all shock binding.

2) I re-indexed my pan hard at the frame. For some reason it was pushing the pan hard bar forward at the axle end (hole on frame attachement not drilled straight) This eliminated about half of my binding on the pan hard.

3) lifted the pan hard on the axle about 3-4". This removed the rest of the bind in the pan hard.

I have to say that i am very pleased with the flex that i have. Of course it could be better with a real 3 link instead of the ford radius arm. But for the type of wheeling i have up here in washington it will never be an issue.

I ran the 'Con from Loon lake to just east of Buck Island and the only bypass we took was around the little sluice. No issues at all.
I wanted to run the whole thing but just east of the dam at buck island i smacked my rear drive shaft pretty bad it was dented, twisted and beat up pretty good. (figures this is about the only spare part i didn't have) So we decided to camp another night at buck island and headed back out from there. I took most of the bypasses on the way out and the drive line held together to get us out.

[WHITE RHINO]

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e258/mikes1988pos/100_2841.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e258/mikes1988pos/100_2840.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e258/mikes1988pos/100_2839.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e258/mikes1988pos/100_2838.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e258/mikes1988pos/100_2834.jpg